The check I wrote to the Honda dealer is for an interest free loan. It is from a credit card company with "0" percent financing on new purchases thru Sept.. Starting Oct 1, it starts charging interest. We constantly get these "0" interest offers from credit card companies. Somewhere around August we will transfer that balance to another "0" offer. We paid for the 98 Ram that way and will pay for the Pilot that way.
FWIW: We do have several 1 year CD's paying a whopping 1.8% that we can cash in to "Pay Off" , if no "0" offers are available at that time. So, I'm not suggesting that everyone do this. Because the interest rate goes to more than Honda America wanted. But it is an alternative if you have a way to "Bail Out"!
The credit card "checks" don't charge the dealer the 3% as using a credit card does. My dealer checked with them before he accepted the check as payment.
• $2000 Cash Back OR • 0.0% APR for 36 months • 0.0% APR for 48 months • 0.0% APR for 60 months • GMAC financing for qualified buyers
I have never seen it where you can get both, it's always either/or. I always pick the one that saves me the most money over the life of the loan.
There was a period where both were offered to the customer.
What year was this? I must have missed the boat. I purchased a GM vehicle in June 1999 and December 2002 and both times it was either/or. Maybe they were just doing it for a limited time, I've never seen both offered.
Oh, I see. But the consumer cash isn't as much and the interest rate is higher than the special 0% financing. So it's another option that probably doesn't save you any more money than the either/or options.
The math is pretty simple. Both the discounted APR and the rebates have to be subsidized and often equal out by some accounting.
Raise the APR, lower the rebate. You could conceivably offer both by hiking the APR somewhat so there's money left over to offer as a rebate. However, soomeone in marketing might think that it's not as good as offering the choice of an even lower APR without any rebate, and a bigger rebate without the financing.
Sometimes that works to the buyer's benefit too. E.g. someone who can afford to pay cash or finance only a small portion of the vehicle may benefit more by taking the big rebate. While someone financing the entire amount may find it more palatable for their personal financial situation by using the APR (assuming they qualify for it).
"When I have bargained for a car, I have gone in for the best price. Then I mention rebates and 0% financing, etc. They always tell me that with the price I got I can't get the other options. If I wanted to start at MSRP they would deduct the rebate and give me the financing. My experience is that actually "officially" getting those rebates is not possible, salespeople will never give them to you....."
This holds true for Dealer Rebates (a rebate from the manufacturer to the dealer) and are different from Customer Rebates (manufacturer to the customer). The dealer will try and keep that to themselves, but the shrewd buyer will be able to use that to get a lower price - especially if you play two or three dealers. The Customer Rebate is ALWAYS available to you no matter what price you pay - unless they have included that in your price. Perhaps in your experience the rebate was included in your price and you were also trying for the 0% financing?
thats correct...manufacturers will offer "dealer cash" to their franchises to 'push' a certain vehicle. but when they REALLY need to move units, they will offer "customer cash" directly to the public. your best bet in negotiating when there is dealer cash is to NOT let on that you know about it. figure it into your offer, but dont bring it up. thats like backing a cat into a corner.
having sold explorers/mountaineers, and pilots, i tend to believe i have a pretty good perspective on things. in my last post, i equipped the explorer E/B as close to the pilot as possible. power pass seat is an individual option, as is the dual zone and the hitch. the hitch is standard, but you have to upgrade it to a class 3 or 4. if you upgrade, you still have to add the tranny cooler just like the pilot. my estimate of $36500 may be off, but not by more than a couple hunskys.
about the thing with holding back on your trade until after the sale, there is almost nothing that ticks me off more as a salesperson. profit be damned, i dont like haggling any more than a buyer does, and that makes it twice as much time/work. if you are up front with your salesperson, he/she will be more willing to work hard for your benefit. some antiquated dealers are different, but for the most part, we like straightforwardness from a customer just as much as customers appreciate it from a salesperson.
I'm not a huge fan of car sales people or the sales process at most dealers, but I have to agree bowke28 - the advice that Consumer Reports and other publications give to "keep your trade a secret until you've agreed on the price of the new car" is generally BAD advice.
Forgetting the deceptive and manipulative aspect, it just doesn't make any business sense. My experience with tens of car deals is that if you do your homework, you can get all the dealers to make the same deal on a new car +/- $100 or so. But what they'll give you on a trade can vary by thousands. So what sense does it make to spend an hour or two negotiating for the lowest price on a new car, then introduce your trade to the deal and find out that the dealer can't come close to what you think is appropriate value? You end up either having to sell the car privately (which most aren't very good at and which may have very adverse tax consequences) or having to back out of the deal (creating further ill will), then start the process all over again with another dealer.
If you are tending to sell your car privately anyway, then it does make a little sense to concentrate on the new car price and not muddle the deal with the trade-in, but most folks would much prefer to trade. So why not negotiate over the final price you're going to pay - the difference - and go from there? And if you can't reach terms and you want to sell privately, then retract the trade from the deal and see if you can close.
I've always found it best to be cordial, professional, and let car sales people know that I've done my homework. Their time is valuable too, so cutting through the BS and dealing openly and straightfowardly is in both parties best interest.
I understand about letting the salesman know "UP FRONT" that we intend to trade in our old vehicle. It is a great TOOL for the salesman. My son made in excess of $70K last year selling GM and Mitsubishi, Kia, and used cars.
He's told me many times "I would really hate to have you as a customer!" I asked, "WHY"? He answered, "You don't leave me any "ROOM" to work with!"
A dealership would gladly sell you a vehicle at FULL BOAT (MSRP+) if you let them. They will be glad to "Take" your trade-in off your hands, and charge you an inflated interest rate. Without batting an eye. That's how they make a living folks!!!
If it was up to me, the dealers would "ALL" charge the same $$ for a vehicle. The same $$ for options, and give the same trade for your vehicle, depending on an outside appraiser, for your area.
But because it is done through bargaining, you had best be fully prepared to do battle, when you visit those dealers. Why should you give the dealer ALL the loaded cards. He isn't going to loose money. But he will make MORE if you allow it. They have many ways of moving figures around to make you think you are getting the deal of a lifetime. It is simply the Shell Game!
My dealer wanted to charge me MSRP and allow me $7000 for my trade. To add insult to injury, they wanted to charge an additional $599 for paint sealer and a pin stripe, Protection package.
I told them that since the vinyl shipping sheets were still on the car, they could eleminate those items right off. I can wax it and stripe it for less than $5.
In a NUTSHELL, I eliminated the above $599, and $1500 (discount) from the Pilot price. I got an additional $2500 for my trade. That's $4599 of my money that they would have been glad to take. Not to mention sales tax on those savings of $230.
$4829 is worth a few hours of negotiations.
Is it fair? of course it is? Why should the dealer, who does this every day, hold all the cards?
"we like straightforwardness from a customer just as much as customers appreciate it from a salesperson"
I understand your point, and agree that it is the honorable thing to do. Sad that it doesn't work that way in real world.
You may be the most honest salesman in the world. You may tell a customer, "Sir, here is the deal they ore offering you, but I know they will do $3000 better, if you hang tough!" If you would do that, you would be very rare.
If a person is sincerly trying to buy a car, they should NEVER lay all their cards on the table.
Do you think, for a minute, that the dealer is going to tell you:
We have $3000 profit built into the MSRP of our car.
We are charging you an additional $400 for the girl, that's getting paid to be here anyway, to put papers through a printer. Doc fees!
We will get a $600 hold back from the manufacturer.
We spent $5 on some stuff that we are charging you $500 for. So we are attempting to make $4500 of your purchasing our car.
Our used car manager is offering us $9k for your trade, but we are going to only allow you $7k for it. Thats another $2k in our pocket. So we are going to make $6,500 on you.
Your car is worth $10k, but the used car manager is giving us $9K. So he will make another $3k-$4k on you, when he gives it away for $12,999.95.
NO THEY WON"T!
In real world, most (not ME) customers "ARE" straight forward. Think about it! The salesman will ask several "KEY" questions to find that customer's HOT buttons.
Which car are you interested in?
Do you have a trade?
Will you be financing?
What kind of monthly notes are you looking for?
All these sound innocent enough, and are truly necessary, to the final deal.
BEWARE!
However, a good salesman will know all that info, in short order. They are his tools! Tools that are used to manipulate moneys. A good salesman can put you on an instant guilt trip! "Sir, we have shown you how your trade in is Only worth $7000. You agreed to take $9000 for it. We are gonna take a loss on your trade, in able to "EARN" your business. Isn't that what you agreed too? Now you can't expect us to give you RETAIL for your trade and sell you our unit for wholesale. We couldn't stay in business that way! Now could we!!!!" Fact is that they haven't shown you anything. They have TOLD you that your trade is worth $7000, and they expect you to believe them. It is right there in their book! Dealerships have more "BOOKS" than the public library. They will use one book for allowing your trade, and one, of several, if you are looking to buy from them. The deck stays stacked in their favor! It is not illegal! They are making as much money as possible. Good business sense. And if you are willing to help them do that, more power to THEM!
I really love this one! "Sir you said that you wanted to keep your notes at less than $500 a month. We have done that for you. You got a fantastic deal and your notes will be only $489 a month. That is what you said you wanted! You are an honorable man,.... aren't you? Just initial this, and we can get the paper work done in short order." Then you ask, "For how long?" "Only 84 months sir!".... HUH???
A good salesman will find your hot buttons, so you had best have a bunch of them! ;>)
Now, lets look at my, not great, deal.
They still made $1500 on selling their Pilot. Plus $399 documentation fees, Pure Profit. I believe there is a 2% holdback on Hondas. About $600 there. That appears like they pulled in about $2500 more than if I had walked. Even though I spent a lot less than they wanted me too. Yes they do have overhead. But that overhead will be there, whether I buy or not.
The salesman told me he gets 30% of the gross. Subtract a PAK (SP) fee of $300. So he got 30% of roughly $1200. Or $360 for 4 hours work. The amount of time that he spends on deals that don't work out, or that he spends waiting for a customer, are of no concern to me! The time he spent with me = $90 per hour. For that kind of money I expect him to be professional and work hard....The more he can get out of me, the more he makes. With this type pay incentive, how fair can he be?
Selling cars is a tough job. Buying one and getting a fair deal is even tougher!
Kip, you hit the nail on the head! I battled with 3 different dealerships for my Pilot and CR-V trade-in and they used every trick in the book to make more money on my deal. I never did get a respectable deal, but I was inpatient and that got the best of me.
Thought I would check in again. According to the specs I could find on the net, the Pilot and the Explorer are about the same weight (4300 lbs or so). However, the Aviator (Lincolnized Explorer) was listed in a Car and Driver test at a little over 5000 lbs---and a V-8 Explorer shouldn't be a lot lighter. I will weigh mine when I get a chance.
In 2003, the power passenger seat, dual temperature controls (as well as heated, leather seats) are all standard on the Eddie Bauer version.
After wasting time at dealers in my younger days, trying to get a good deal, I now cut through a lot of BS by just asking how much over invoice do they need to sell me a car. When I get a reasonable answer, we talk further. If they tell me they don't sell that way, I just tell them that of course they do. Every car they've ever sold, the sales manager has signed off on after checking the offer against his invoice. If they don't want to tell me up front, I'll just move on. It's almost funny, how fast a lot of them start back-peddling at that point. And if they don't, I walk---I won't waste my time with those kinds of dealers.
Dealers do have to make a profit on their trade-in's as well. I don't expect a "retail" price on my trade-in, after negotiating a "straight-out" price on the new car. I settled on a price for the Explorer ($250 over invoice, $25 document fees, less $2000 rebate and less $500 dealer cash). I had a '96 Sable with 44,000 miles that I was prepared to sell privately. I simply asked if they had any interest in trading it in. If they didn't, that was OK. Probably because of the low miles, they said bring it in and they would make me an offer. Edmunds said it was worth low $4000 wholesale, low $5000 private sale, and low $6000 dealer sell. They offered me $5000 (which would reduce sales tax another $350) and I said fine.
Again, my experience has been that 4 out of 5 dealers will answer the question about how much over invoice they need to make a deal. Or they will ask how much are you willing to pay? If they do that, I just say a couple hundred dollars max. The exceptions to this are dealers of "high demand" cars, like the Pilot or dealers that just want to jerk you around.
My Explorer had over $1000 of hold-back on the invoice, so the dealer made money. I don't know if Honda is that generous with their hold-backs---which may also explain why it's harder getting close to invoice on their cars.
Oh yes, never ever appear to be in a hurry if you want a good price. Just tell them you're shopping around a little and want to know what it's going to take to buy a car. If they ask (and they will), how soon you're going to buy, be prepared to say sometime in the next few weeks or when you can get a good deal.
It's a jungle out there, and they have sold a lot more cars than you'll ever buy.
Impatience on our part, is part of what a dealer counts on. Wearing us down is another.
They are armed with tactics, which they teach to their sales personal. Wear em down, confuse the numbers, gain their confidence, make em think they are getting what they want, etc..
My salesman was excellent. Very likable and gained my confidence quickly. He learned about my family, and told me about his. Even mentioned that he only needed to make this sale so he could get his bonus. A high gross was not really important on this deal. Just needed a minimum deal, to get that bonus. So he would be working very hard for me. He even said, "I can tell that you are a man that won't let the dealership, take advantage of you,.... not that they would"!
Wow, what a line! In one sentence he became my friend, and seperated himself from the dealership!
Pay attention! ! ! Take notes.
I was later able to look really tired and mention being weary. I said, "John I thought you were my friend, and here you are trying to trick me"!
FWIW, I later found out that this was his third deal this month. Was he lying? Or simply moving words around a bit, to gain my confidence.
I ate a good meal before I went, even took a short nap. Got to the dealership late in the day. I had already driven the Pilot, a couple of times.
Two can play at the "wearing down game". They were trying to close when we finished up. That's why I ended up in the owners office, rather than the New car manager! :>)
Be Courteous .
Be knowledgable.
Take notes.
If you see, you are at a dead end, say, "Let me think on that, a few days". This is especially helpful the last few days of the month.
If you feel that a better deal is possible, but the "Manager" has locked down, request to talk with the general manager or the owner.
Be patient.
Be reasonable.
Be respectful of the salesman, as long as he is respectful to you. If he becomes disrespectful, get up and go see, whoever he has been going to see. Go up the ladder if necessary.
Remember ! ! The dealership is not going to lose money. However, they will take as much of yours, as you allow them too.
If you were playing a card game, would you lay all your cards so that the others could see them? Or would you guard your hand, and try to keep them guessing as they are you?
Treat, trading cars, as a game. Have fun!
If you are offered a rediculous deal, laugh out loud. Sincerely ! Don't get mad.
Admire a good salesman, and help those rookies that are trying to learn. They are people too !!
I paid $29,330 for a basic 2003 Honda Pilot. I started by calling and visiting various dealers who told me no way they can do better than $500 above MSRP and some even said $1,000 above MSRP. I decided to call dealers outside my area and found a dealer in Jersey City, NJ who agreed to sell the car for my offer of $29,000 plus destination of $460. When I got to the dealer he had a few additional fees $129 for car protection (something about the windows) and $149 for messenger and clerical fee related to title and plates. I suggested he drop the $129 from the price but paid the admin fee. So final "Car Price" was $29,331. After taxes and fees the price was $31,390. Any views on wether this was a good price or did I get taken on the fees?
I was gonna post this in your other thread, but tidester beat me to it.
(copy&paste)
The mods will probably close this thread, but anyway.
1. "Final Car Price" should be your outdoor cost minus only TTL (tax/title/license). Any and all other fees, such as admin/doc/advertising/floor plan etc., are pure dealer profit. They do cost dealer money but they are cost of bussiness, which should be taken from dealer's gross profit, not in addition to it.
2. You didn't say what exactly was the MSRP for your Pilot. The truely basic Pilot is LX w/o any option, MSRP at $26900. I doubt you bought that, more likely an EX cloth one, right?
3. Regarding what IS a good deal on a Pilot, it depends on geo regions, and varies widely from $2500 off MSRP to MSRP. There is a Pilot Owner's Club in this townhall, go check it out. You can compare notes with tri-state buyers to figure out how good is your deal. I know a lot of folks in your area order their Pilots from OH/MI dealers and have them shipped.
I ordered my Pilot and while the dealer told me I should get one soon and in my color I am a little nervous because I got no guarantee and gave a deposit. Has anyone else gone through the ordering process?
jminaya, The dealers in the Atlanta area told me that, As they sell a specific car, Honda replaces it with a similar one. They could tell me what was coming, but had no way to order specific color, options, etc.. They could, however try to locate one at another dealer and possibly do a trade with them.
Don't know how truthful that info is. You might want to ask your dealer.
Problem with above, is that if all dealers in your area are limited on the number of Pilots, they will probably not wish to trade one to another dealer ! Even if they do, it will likely cost you extra charges somewhere.
i am in full agreement with you on your comments about trade in. that should be the first thing you do . there are two options when trading in your car to a dealer. 1 the car is not worth selling on the street so you find the dealer that will give you the most money for the car. 2 if the car is worth selling you fix up what needs to be done and sell it privately. you stand to get more money.i believe that if you want to trade your car in to a dealer this is your first order of buiness. you want to know the value or the best price. the ladder is you tell said dealer 4 5 6 hundred over invoice gets your buiness.it may be time consuming but you will find a decent deal. i personally keep my cars in good condition,sell private then i make my best deal on price from what ever dealer will take my money on the new car, truck i'm looking for.
Has anyone found a source for the Plastic shades that attach above the side windows. Nice to be able to keep the front windows cracked without rain dripping in!
I had them on the Ram. Made by AutoShade! But haven't been able to locate any for the pilot.
Try www.hondacuraworld.com and click on Honda Pilot and scroll down to near the bottom of the available accessories. I think the Vent Visors are what you are looking for. Don't have them myself, but the guys at that store (if you call them or email them) will give you the scope.
I wonder if fellow pilot owners out there had any problem with the steering wheel being not centered. I am going straight down the road and yet the steering wheel is pointing a little to the right-thus not horizontal. Don't think it's alignment problem because the car does go straight with my hands off the wheel. Although this is not serious, it's a little annoying because you expect everything to be perfect when you buy a new car. Thanks ahead for your comments.
.. can be corrected by the dealer. It is an easy process and will not disturb the alignment if done correctly. Have you tried taking it to the service manager?
My car (not a Pilot) had the same problem, only to the left, and was corrected perfectly in one go.
Thanks for the Pilot accessories info. It is exactly what I needed! Their prices appear to be less than my local Honda dealer, even with the 25% "New Owner" discount.
FWIW: Gas Milage
Got 16 + mpg on first tank. First fill for me was at 237 miles on the odometer. It took 14.7 Gal.
The second tank consisted mostly of suburban driving, with it's share of stops and lites, and "Mall Traffic".. About 1/4 of the tank, consisted of some back road, "house looking". Don't think there was ever more than 10 +/- miles, at 35-70 mph, without a reason to stop for something.
Both recorded fill ups were at the same pump, pointed in the same direction. Fill until the gas is visible in the neck of the tank. It was about 10 degrees colder outside temp, during the second one, than the first. At 528 total miles, it took 14.4 gal. That's 288 miles on that tank. About 20 MPG.. I consider this acceptable, considering the weight, size, and power.
So far, the only troubling thing is the "Free Play" at the start of the throttle pedal. It moves very slightly, before actually engaging its mechanizm. (cable, lever, or whatever). I tried another Pilot at the dealers, and it did the same thing. So it must be a Pilot thingie! I'm getting used to it, but see no earthly need for it.
Thanks, I called the dealership and they said they would take care of it. It's just that the dealership is quite a drive from home. I guess I will drive the car a litte more to see if there are any more problems so that I can get everything fixed. So far, except for the steering wheel (and somewhat high price paid due to demand), our Pilot has been great.
Thanks for your comments. Very common problem that will cause 2+ hours of my time since my dealer is 1 hour away. Don't dealers test-drive these cars when they arrive and have check-off list like (1) check the steering wheel is straight (2) tires mounted (3)...etc...?
I am thinking I deserve a free option for this inconvenience/gross mistake.
My Honda dealer has offered what I think is a pretty good lease deal on an '03 Pilot EX.In Canada that's MSRP of $41,000.00 - only items missing are the leather seats w/heaters and the Homelink. His price is $655.00 (taxes in) for a 48 month lease - $0 down. My concern is when the '04 model comes out - I hate to jump at a deal on a car that will be updated within a few months. (Maybe that's why the deal is so good - or is it because everyone goes the extra $2,000.00 for the EX w/leather?) I think someone has already asked when the '04s are due - June? I know this is a strange comparison, but my other choice is an '03 or '04 Subaru Forester - just coming out of a '99 Lexus RX300 - the Pilot seems like a good replacement if I use my head - but, the Subie just wins my heart. Any thoughts?
My last post might be lacking without some additonal info.
I know comparing a Pilot to a Forester is very "apples and oranges". But here's the thing - both offer AWD, both have utility beyond a conventional car, both have a pretty good reliability record - which is important for any vehicle and paramount to me - the Lexus has been absolutely perfect. Sure, the Pilot has about a 75HP advantage, plus more torque, cabin and cargo space, and probably more refinement and "extras". It's also about $5,000.00(CDN) more than the Forester. Both quote frankly would suit my needs - the Pilot is maybe more than what I need but the value seems outstanding. (Maybe I've just answered my own question). I have two boys, 15 and 12 - but most of the time I'm by myself in the vehicle. Did anyone end up comparing the same two vehicles? If so, what made the decision to go with the Pilot? Getting back to my original quandry about '03 Pilot versus an '04 - are there "wrinkles" in the '03 that might make waiting for an '04 a better bet? I hear bout starting and "road noise" problems - are these a big deal, or just minor annoyances? I could also post this on the Forester forum, but I'd really like to hear from Pilot owners - hope the $ aren't a problem for our U.S. friends - we're talking $41,00o.00CDN for the Pilot, no leather, etc., (about $28U.S.?) and $37,000.00CDN for a loaded Forester with leather, sunroof, etc. ($26U.S.?) FYI - the Pilot has a 3 year warranty - the Forester is 4 years. Just another confused buyer looking for some advice....
I'm not a Pilot owner, but a long time Honda owner (current CRV owner). I'm still very confused. You seem to like the Forester but why are you not comparing it to a CRV, Escape, Freelander, etc???
Your comparison logic is like saying all SUV's have 4 wheels so why not compare the Subaru to a Cadilac Escalade?
The road noise I've seen in some treads is usually tire related. I also think in most other SUV's you probably hear so much rattles and body groans, you never get to hear the tires. The starting issue is probably new model teething issue.
Personally, I find the Subies overpriced for what you get. The Forester's not bad, but a few years ago the Outbacks where (and still are) very pricy for a 4WD wagon that realy doesn't give you a lot of interior room. They could drop a lot of the plastic chrome pieces too, unless you like that stuff.
Joey, have you ever shopped a subie? or are you going strictly by the MSRP pricing? Street pricing on the subies is significantly less than sticker whereas on a Honduh they are usually close to sticker (sometimes more).
Name 1 car you can get for $19K that can compare to a Legacy Sedan or Wagon in terms of features, power etc.
Mike: Any good car that's not in demand and you can get at discount with good leasing / financing is a good deal. But you bring up the Legacy, a small 4 door sedan that looks like every other Civic, Corolla, etc. (Actually, I think the styling and interior of those cars is better then the Legacy). This class of car is not selling well. Saturn/Honda are all giving incentives on the smaller 4 door sedans.
Subies are great, I just think you should compare similar cars. Just because all Subie's are 4WD, I would not compare them to all classes of SUV's.
For example, a loaded Outback can go for over 32K! I would probably compare it to an Audi Quatro Wagon since its got 4WD and its a small wagon.
Legacy is much larger than a civic it competes with the Accord/Altimas.
$32K, again that is MSRP on the VDC Wagon. Actual street prices on the VDC are $27-$29K.
My original point was that you made a statement about Subies being expensive, yet you can't point to an AWD Sedan/wagon that costs $19K. If you want to make a statement that *SOME* subies are overpriced on MSRP, then that's fine.
I exited the freeway in light rain yesterday. About 20 feet before the stop sign my Pilot skidded over a wet cattle guard (metal grate). Instead of braking once I got back on the pavement, the brakes did not engage at all and the Pilot slid right through the stop sign.
I'm just lucky that there were no cars coming in either direction. As one passenger in my car remarked, "Your ABS just freaked out." This could be extremely dangerous.
Has anyone else experienced something like this on wet pavement or ice?
I called Honda and they were ho-hum. Probably didn't believe it or didn't care. That's why we need government over-regulation. I guess I'll have to call and badger the NHTSA until they investigate.
It sounds like you had a very odd experience. You had rain combined with different road surfaces. Are you saying that the ABS was engaging while going over the metal and the brakes completely failed when you hit the pavement? Or did the ABS disengage when you reached the pavement? Did you slide or roll through the stop sign?
What I think may have happened is that once you reached the pavement, the tires regained traction and disengaged the ABS and that you then rolled through the stop sign. Remember that ABS will not stop you any faster - it only prevents the wheels from locking.
I drive over a metal grated bridge that has a slight curve at the end. I have felt the effect of sliding/drifting in the wet when turning and regaining traction with a jolt when hitting pavement again.
Good luck "badgering the NHTSA until the investigate." Believe me, they don't have a taem of people standing by to answer your indivdiual complaint. Just what are you expecting them (or the dealer) to do?
I'd first ask the Honda dealer to check the ABS system for faults. These systems are extremely sophisticated and have a number of self-test functions. If the system was releasing the brakes without wheel lockup, it would register a fault.
My guess is that the cattle grate started the ABS system cycling and since your first reaction was to keep pressing, the tires were continuing to skid on the wet pavement after the grate. At this point, you simply didn't have enough traction to get stopped in time, ABS or not.
cpintucson, I cannot explain the mechanics of your braking issue, but it happens to me on my 96 Acura Integra GS-R, especially in the snow. Since it has happened before, I am careful while applying my brakes on my PILOT EX-L. If I see that I am about to cross over some ice or snow or metal in the road, I remove my foot from the brake pedal until I clear the obstacle and then re-apply the brakes. Last week during the snow storm here in New York City, I was driving (too fast I must admit) to catch my bus and applied my brakes on my Integra in preparation for a stop sign. I started to slide until I released my brakes and re-applied. The anti lock re-engaged and I stopped safely. I pretty much apply this maneuver without thinking now, which may be why I haven't experienced your problem with my Pilot.
Maybe the ABS was still operating when you hit pavement but it wasn't given enough force through the pedal to stop you quickly? Did the brake pedal go to the floor? It's been reported that many people will let up on the brake pedal when the ABS engages, thus reducing the braking force and increasing stopping distance.
If it were me, I'd try it some more to pinpoint what's happening. As soon as ABS engages, apply more pedal force and see what happens. Of course I wouldn't try this if it's a busy intersection....
I was less twenty feet from a stop sign and traveling less than 5 MPH. I did not depress the brakes any harder nor did I pump them or let up on them. They simply stopped working. Similar to a problem I had years ago with a car that had with a faulty master cylinder. If anyone has experienced this they know how far a car the size of a Pilot will travel going 3 MPH without braking. Pretty scary not having any control. If this is normal for the Pilot or any other Honda it is not good. I have never experienced this with the ABS on our previous cars.
Yes, I know that's a scary proposition. A similar thing happened to me while test driving a LR Discovery. Coming up to a stop sign on a rainy day, crossed a flat metal grate and it felt like the brakes disappeared. I stopped about 10 feet into the intersection where cars had to stop to not hit me. When the ABS engaged, it was like the brakes disappeared.
The salesman told me that was normal and I must apply maximum pedal force when the ABS engages to get maximum braking capacity. Made sense, but needless to say, we were turned off by the Disco and went with the Pilot. No problems with the Pilot's braking on metal surfaces, the ABS comes on but it still stops like you'd expect.
Do you have another Honda dealer you can take it to?
I was going to tell you again that you're probably imagining the problem, then then I remembered something that happened on a motorcycle one time.
I had a Yamaha R1 and got into what was called a "tank slapper". This is a violent oscillation of the handlebars from stop-to-stop that can happen in unusual circumstances of hard acceleration out of a bumpy corner in which the front tire is only intermittently touching the pavement. The oscillation stopped before spitting me off the bike, but I had a surprise at the next intersection - I pulled the brake lever and it came all the way to the handlebar. Absolutely no brakes. I managed to stop by pumping the lever, but for the first stroke or two, the brakes were absolutely gone.
What happens is that the pistons in the brake calipers rattle their way back in the calipers such that you can't pump enough fluid to them in one pedal stroke to get the brake pads bearing again on the discs. It takes a couple strokes to get the fluid back in the calipers such that the brakes are functioning again. It is a little like the delay you get when braking after going through standing water, but more severe and you have to pump the pedal a time or two to get any braking action at all.
I've never heard about this is a car, but this behaviour is well known on motorcycles. My bet is that the cattle grate set up a vibration that just happened to be at the right frequency to cause this to occur. It might not occur unless you cross the grate at just the right speed. It is also possible that the ABS system got very confused by the pedal being down and the car not stopping so it might also have been a contributor.
How to prevent? If you brake and the car doesn't respond, pump the brakes to get the fluid back into the calipers.
Can you go out to this intersection and see if you can duplicate the problem? I'd love to know if my theory is correct.
I suspect that any car might do this under the right circumstances, but perhaps Honda's design is more susceptible than others.
Tank slapping on the R1, not fun. I had that problem on my old CBR-900RR at 120mph, only I wasn't able to recover and ended up high-siding - what a mess. I take it a little easier now with my R1.
I know, drifting off subject...back to the Pilot. The Pilot does a great job of towing my 5x8 trailer with two motorcycles on it.
Pete, sorry about the shunt. Hope you healed without repurcussions. I'm on an R6 now and haven't had any headshake to speak of. I probably should get a steering damper, but I don't like the looks or the slower steering. Fortunately, most of my touring miles are on a R1100S and I really like the feel of the telelever front end.
Again, trying to get back on subject ... I'm going to be shopping for a Pilot this fall and it will have to do the towing job that my current body-on-frame ML320 is doing - 1K utility trailer and a couple of 600-lb sport touring bikes. The ML is rated for 5K while the Honda is 3.5K, but I'm hopeful it will do the job about as well.
Do you have any issue with the lack of a D4 on the tranny?
Yes, an R1100S would definitely be a comfy ride. With my R1 and wife's F4 (CBR not MV), we aren't inclined to ride across the country, so we trailer them to a destination and ride from there.
I have mixed feelings about the Pilot's lack of D4 while towing. At first it bugged me, D3 was to low and D4 would be perfect. I have now come to the conclusion of leaving it in D(5) and letting the grade-logic work - and it does work, most of the time. It utilized 4th gear when it needs it and seems to hold the gear pretty well without hunting. Occasionally I still manually shift into D3 when I'm about to head down a real steep hill that the grade-logic hasn't picked up on yet.
If I had the MD-X I'd probably leave it in D4 exclusively while towing. Since I'm only towing 1500 lbs, it doesn't seem to bad leaving it in D(5).
Comments
FWIW: We do have several 1 year CD's paying a whopping 1.8% that we can cash in to "Pay Off" , if no "0" offers are available at that time. So, I'm not suggesting that everyone do this. Because the interest rate goes to more than Honda America wanted. But it is an alternative if you have a way to "Bail Out"!
The credit card "checks" don't charge the dealer the 3% as using a credit card does. My dealer checked with them before he accepted the check as payment.
• $2000 Cash Back
OR
• 0.0% APR for 36 months
• 0.0% APR for 48 months
• 0.0% APR for 60 months
• GMAC financing for qualified buyers
I have never seen it where you can get both, it's always either/or. I always pick the one that saves me the most money over the life of the loan.
What year was this? I must have missed the boat. I purchased a GM vehicle in June 1999 and December 2002 and both times it was either/or. Maybe they were just doing it for a limited time, I've never seen both offered.
link
Steve, Host
Raise the APR, lower the rebate. You could conceivably offer both by hiking the APR somewhat so there's money left over to offer as a rebate. However, soomeone in marketing might think that it's not as good as offering the choice of an even lower APR without any rebate, and a bigger rebate without the financing.
Sometimes that works to the buyer's benefit too. E.g. someone who can afford to pay cash or finance only a small portion of the vehicle may benefit more by taking the big rebate. While someone financing the entire amount may find it more palatable for their personal financial situation by using the APR (assuming they qualify for it).
This holds true for Dealer Rebates (a rebate from the manufacturer to the dealer) and are different from Customer Rebates (manufacturer to the customer). The dealer will try and keep that to themselves, but the shrewd buyer will be able to use that to get a lower price - especially if you play two or three dealers. The Customer Rebate is ALWAYS available to you no matter what price you pay - unless they have included that in your price. Perhaps in your experience the rebate was included in your price and you were also trying for the 0% financing?
your best bet in negotiating when there is dealer cash is to NOT let on that you know about it. figure it into your offer, but dont bring it up. thats like backing a cat into a corner.
having sold explorers/mountaineers, and pilots, i tend to believe i have a pretty good perspective on things. in my last post, i equipped the explorer E/B as close to the pilot as possible. power pass seat is an individual option, as is the dual zone and the hitch. the hitch is standard, but you have to upgrade it to a class 3 or 4. if you upgrade, you still have to add the tranny cooler just like the pilot. my estimate of $36500 may be off, but not by more than a couple hunskys.
about the thing with holding back on your trade until after the sale, there is almost nothing that ticks me off more as a salesperson. profit be damned, i dont like haggling any more than a buyer does, and that makes it twice as much time/work. if you are up front with your salesperson, he/she will be more willing to work hard for your benefit. some antiquated dealers are different, but for the most part, we like straightforwardness from a customer just as much as customers appreciate it from a salesperson.
Forgetting the deceptive and manipulative aspect, it just doesn't make any business sense. My experience with tens of car deals is that if you do your homework, you can get all the dealers to make the same deal on a new car +/- $100 or so. But what they'll give you on a trade can vary by thousands. So what sense does it make to spend an hour or two negotiating for the lowest price on a new car, then introduce your trade to the deal and find out that the dealer can't come close to what you think is appropriate value? You end up either having to sell the car privately (which most aren't very good at and which may have very adverse tax consequences) or having to back out of the deal (creating further ill will), then start the process all over again with another dealer.
If you are tending to sell your car privately anyway, then it does make a little sense to concentrate on the new car price and not muddle the deal with the trade-in, but most folks would much prefer to trade. So why not negotiate over the final price you're going to pay - the difference - and go from there? And if you can't reach terms and you want to sell privately, then retract the trade from the deal and see if you can close.
I've always found it best to be cordial, professional, and let car sales people know that I've done my homework. Their time is valuable too, so cutting through the BS and dealing openly and straightfowardly is in both parties best interest.
- Mark
He's told me many times "I would really hate to have you as a customer!" I asked, "WHY"?
He answered, "You don't leave me any "ROOM" to work with!"
A dealership would gladly sell you a vehicle at FULL BOAT (MSRP+) if you let them. They will be glad to "Take" your trade-in off your hands, and charge you an inflated interest rate. Without batting an eye. That's how they make a living folks!!!
If it was up to me, the dealers would "ALL" charge the same $$ for a vehicle. The same $$ for options, and give the same trade for your vehicle, depending on an outside appraiser, for your area.
But because it is done through bargaining, you had best be fully prepared to do battle, when you visit those dealers. Why should you give the dealer ALL the loaded cards. He isn't going to loose money. But he will make MORE if you allow it. They have many ways of moving figures around to make you think you are getting the deal of a lifetime. It is simply the Shell Game!
My dealer wanted to charge me MSRP and allow me $7000 for my trade. To add insult to injury, they wanted to charge an additional $599 for paint sealer and a pin stripe, Protection package.
I told them that since the vinyl shipping sheets were still on the car, they could eleminate those items right off. I can wax it and stripe it for less than $5.
In a NUTSHELL, I eliminated the above $599, and $1500 (discount) from the Pilot price. I got an additional $2500 for my trade. That's $4599 of my money that they would have been glad to take. Not to mention sales tax on those savings of $230.
$4829 is worth a few hours of negotiations.
Is it fair? of course it is? Why should the dealer, who does this every day, hold all the cards?
"we like straightforwardness from a customer just as much as customers appreciate it from a salesperson"
I understand your point, and agree that it is the honorable thing to do. Sad that it doesn't work that way in real world.
You may be the most honest salesman in the world. You may tell a customer, "Sir, here is the deal they ore offering you, but I know they will do $3000 better, if you hang tough!" If you would do that, you would be very rare.
If a person is sincerly trying to buy a car, they should NEVER lay all their cards on the table.
Do you think, for a minute, that the dealer is going to tell you:
We have $3000 profit built into the MSRP of our car.
We are charging you an additional $400 for the girl, that's getting paid to be here anyway, to put papers through a printer. Doc fees!
We will get a $600 hold back from the manufacturer.
We spent $5 on some stuff that we are charging you $500 for. So we are attempting to make $4500 of your purchasing our car.
Our used car manager is offering us $9k for your trade, but we are going to only allow you $7k for it. Thats another $2k in our pocket. So we are going to make $6,500 on you.
Your car is worth $10k, but the used car manager is giving us $9K. So he will make another $3k-$4k on you, when he gives it away for $12,999.95.
NO THEY WON"T!
In real world, most (not ME) customers "ARE" straight forward. Think about it! The salesman will ask several "KEY" questions to find that customer's HOT buttons.
Which car are you interested in?
Do you have a trade?
Will you be financing?
What kind of monthly notes are you looking for?
All these sound innocent enough, and are truly necessary, to the final deal.
BEWARE!
However, a good salesman will know all that info, in short order. They are his tools! Tools that are used to manipulate moneys.
A good salesman can put you on an instant guilt trip! "Sir, we have shown you how your trade in is Only worth $7000. You agreed to take $9000 for it. We are gonna take a loss on your trade, in able to "EARN" your business. Isn't that what you agreed too? Now you can't expect us to give you RETAIL for your trade and sell you our unit for wholesale. We couldn't stay in business that way!
Now could we!!!!" Fact is that they haven't shown you anything. They have TOLD you that your trade is worth $7000, and they expect you to believe them. It is right there in their book! Dealerships have more "BOOKS" than the public library. They will use one book for allowing your trade, and one, of several, if you are looking to buy from them. The deck stays stacked in their favor! It is not illegal! They are making as much money as possible. Good business sense. And if you are willing to help them do that, more power to THEM!
I really love this one! "Sir you said that you wanted to keep your notes at less than $500 a month. We have done that for you. You got a fantastic deal and your notes will be only $489 a month. That is what you said you wanted! You are an honorable man,.... aren't you? Just initial this, and we can get the paper work done in short order." Then you ask, "For how long?"
"Only 84 months sir!".... HUH???
A good salesman will find your hot buttons, so you had best have a bunch of them! ;>)
Now, lets look at my, not great, deal.
They still made $1500 on selling their Pilot. Plus $399 documentation fees, Pure Profit. I believe there is a 2% holdback on Hondas. About $600 there. That appears like they pulled in about $2500 more than if I had walked. Even though I spent a lot less than they wanted me too.
Yes they do have overhead. But that overhead will be there, whether I buy or not.
The salesman told me he gets 30% of the gross. Subtract a PAK (SP) fee of $300. So he got 30% of roughly $1200. Or $360 for 4 hours work.
The amount of time that he spends on deals that don't work out, or that he spends waiting for a customer, are of no concern to me! The time he spent with me = $90 per hour. For that kind of money I expect him to be professional and work hard....The more he can get out of me, the more he makes. With this type pay incentive, how fair can he be?
Selling cars is a tough job. Buying one and getting a fair deal is even tougher!
Thanks,
Kip
-Pete
In 2003, the power passenger seat, dual temperature controls (as well as heated, leather seats) are all standard on the Eddie Bauer version.
After wasting time at dealers in my younger days, trying to get a good deal, I now cut through a lot of BS by just asking how much over invoice do they need to sell me a car. When I get a reasonable answer, we talk further. If they tell me they don't sell that way, I just tell them that of course they do. Every car they've ever sold, the sales manager has signed off on after checking the offer against his invoice. If they don't want to tell me up front, I'll just move on. It's almost funny, how fast a lot of them start back-peddling at that point. And if they don't, I walk---I won't waste my time with those kinds of dealers.
Dealers do have to make a profit on their trade-in's as well. I don't expect a "retail" price on my trade-in, after negotiating a "straight-out" price on the new car. I settled on a price for the Explorer ($250 over invoice, $25 document fees, less $2000 rebate and less $500 dealer cash). I had a '96 Sable with 44,000 miles that I was prepared to sell privately. I simply asked if they had any interest in trading it in. If they didn't, that was OK. Probably because of the low miles, they said bring it in and they would make me an offer. Edmunds said it was worth low $4000 wholesale, low $5000 private sale, and low $6000 dealer sell. They offered me $5000 (which would reduce sales tax another $350) and I said fine.
Again, my experience has been that 4 out of 5 dealers will answer the question about how much over invoice they need to make a deal. Or they will ask how much are you willing to pay? If they do that, I just say a couple hundred dollars max. The exceptions to this are dealers of "high demand" cars, like the Pilot or dealers that just want to jerk you around.
My Explorer had over $1000 of hold-back on the invoice, so the dealer made money. I don't know if Honda is that generous with their hold-backs---which may also explain why it's harder getting close to invoice on their cars.
Oh yes, never ever appear to be in a hurry if you want a good price. Just tell them you're shopping around a little and want to know what it's going to take to buy a car. If they ask (and they will), how soon you're going to buy, be prepared to say sometime in the next few weeks or when you can get a good deal.
It's a jungle out there, and they have sold a lot more cars than you'll ever buy.
I hear ya !
Impatience on our part, is part of what a dealer counts on. Wearing us down is another.
They are armed with tactics, which they teach to their sales personal. Wear em down, confuse the numbers, gain their confidence, make em think they are getting what they want, etc..
My salesman was excellent. Very likable and gained my confidence quickly. He learned about my family, and told me about his. Even mentioned that he only needed to make this sale so he could get his bonus. A high gross was not really important on this deal. Just needed a minimum deal, to get that bonus. So he would be working very hard for me. He even said, "I can tell that you are a man that won't let the dealership, take advantage of you,.... not that they would"!
Wow, what a line! In one sentence he became my friend, and seperated himself from the dealership!
Pay attention! ! ! Take notes.
I was later able to look really tired and mention being weary. I said, "John I thought you were my friend, and here you are trying to trick me"!
FWIW, I later found out that this was his third deal this month. Was he lying? Or simply moving words around a bit, to gain my confidence.
I ate a good meal before I went, even took a short nap. Got to the dealership late in the day. I had already driven the Pilot, a couple of times.
Two can play at the "wearing down game". They were trying to close when we finished up. That's why I ended up in the owners office, rather than the New car manager! :>)
Be Courteous .
Be knowledgable.
Take notes.
If you see, you are at a dead end, say, "Let me think on that, a few days". This is especially helpful the last few days of the month.
If you feel that a better deal is possible, but the "Manager" has locked down, request to talk with the general manager or the owner.
Be patient.
Be reasonable.
Be respectful of the salesman, as long as he is respectful to you. If he becomes disrespectful, get up and go see, whoever he has been going to see. Go up the ladder if necessary.
Remember ! ! The dealership is not going to lose money. However, they will take as much of yours, as you allow them too.
If you were playing a card game, would you lay all your cards so that the others could see them? Or would you guard your hand, and try to keep them guessing as they are you?
Treat, trading cars, as a game. Have fun!
If you are offered a rediculous deal, laugh out loud. Sincerely ! Don't get mad.
Admire a good salesman, and help those rookies that are trying to learn. They are people too !!
Thanks,
Kip
(copy&paste)
The mods will probably close this thread, but anyway.
1. "Final Car Price" should be your outdoor cost minus only TTL (tax/title/license). Any and all other fees, such as admin/doc/advertising/floor plan etc., are pure dealer profit. They do cost dealer money but they are cost of bussiness, which should be taken from dealer's gross profit, not in addition to it.
2. You didn't say what exactly was the MSRP for your Pilot. The truely basic Pilot is LX w/o any option, MSRP at $26900. I doubt you bought that, more likely an EX cloth one, right?
3. Regarding what IS a good deal on a Pilot, it depends on geo regions, and varies widely from $2500 off MSRP to MSRP. There is a Pilot Owner's Club in this townhall, go check it out. You can compare notes with tri-state buyers to figure out how good is your deal. I know a lot of folks in your area order their Pilots from OH/MI dealers and have them shipped.
Steve, Host
The dealers in the Atlanta area told me that, As they sell a specific car, Honda replaces it with a similar one. They could tell me what was coming, but had no way to order specific color, options, etc.. They could, however try to locate one at another dealer and possibly do a trade with them.
Don't know how truthful that info is. You might want to ask your dealer.
Problem with above, is that if all dealers in your area are limited on the number of Pilots, they will probably not wish to trade one to another dealer ! Even if they do, it will likely cost you extra charges somewhere.
Kip
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
I had them on the Ram. Made by AutoShade! But haven't been able to locate any for the pilot.
Thanks,
Kip
Try www.hondacuraworld.com and click on Honda Pilot and scroll down to near the bottom of the available accessories. I think the Vent Visors are what you are looking for. Don't have them myself, but the guys at that store (if you call them or email them) will give you the scope.
Steve
My car (not a Pilot) had the same problem, only to the left, and was corrected perfectly in one go.
Thanks for the Pilot accessories info. It is exactly what I needed! Their prices appear to be less than my local Honda dealer, even with the 25% "New Owner" discount.
FWIW: Gas Milage
Got 16 + mpg on first tank. First fill for me was at 237 miles on the odometer. It took 14.7 Gal.
The second tank consisted mostly of suburban driving, with it's share of stops and lites, and "Mall Traffic".. About 1/4 of the tank, consisted of some back road, "house looking". Don't think there was ever more than 10 +/- miles, at 35-70 mph, without a reason to stop for something.
Both recorded fill ups were at the same pump, pointed in the same direction. Fill until the gas is visible in the neck of the tank. It was about 10 degrees colder outside temp, during the second one, than the first. At 528 total miles, it took 14.4 gal. That's 288 miles on that tank. About 20 MPG.. I consider this acceptable, considering the weight, size, and power.
So far, the only troubling thing is the "Free Play" at the start of the throttle pedal. It moves very slightly, before actually engaging its mechanizm. (cable, lever, or whatever). I tried another Pilot at the dealers, and it did the same thing. So it must be a Pilot thingie! I'm getting used to it, but see no earthly need for it.
Thanks,
Kip
When one pays a high price for a vehicle, the steering wheel better be straight!
- Mark
I am thinking I deserve a free option for this inconvenience/gross mistake.
His price is $655.00 (taxes in) for a 48 month lease - $0 down. My concern is when the '04 model comes out - I hate to jump at a deal on a car that will be updated within a few months. (Maybe that's why the deal is so good - or is it because everyone goes the extra $2,000.00 for the EX w/leather?) I think someone has already asked when the '04s are due - June?
I know this is a strange comparison, but my other choice is an '03 or '04 Subaru Forester - just coming out of a '99 Lexus RX300 - the Pilot seems like a good replacement if I use my head - but, the Subie just wins my heart.
Any thoughts?
thanx
Of course the Forester will cost you less.
Wo said the Pilot's getting an update? It just came out!
I think you might want to re-evaluate your space requirements first.
I know comparing a Pilot to a Forester is very "apples and oranges". But here's the thing - both offer AWD, both have utility beyond a conventional car, both have a pretty good reliability record - which is important for any vehicle and paramount to me - the Lexus has been absolutely perfect. Sure, the Pilot has about a 75HP advantage, plus more torque, cabin and cargo space, and probably more refinement and "extras". It's also about $5,000.00(CDN) more than the Forester. Both quote frankly would suit my needs - the Pilot is maybe more than what I need but the value seems outstanding. (Maybe I've just answered my own question). I have two boys, 15 and 12 - but most of the time I'm by myself in the vehicle. Did anyone end up comparing the same two vehicles? If so, what made the decision to go with the Pilot? Getting back to my original quandry about '03 Pilot versus an '04 - are there "wrinkles" in the '03 that might make waiting for an '04 a better bet? I hear bout starting and "road noise" problems - are these a big deal, or just minor annoyances?
I could also post this on the Forester forum, but I'd really like to hear from Pilot owners - hope the $ aren't a problem for our U.S. friends - we're talking $41,00o.00CDN for the Pilot, no leather, etc., (about $28U.S.?) and $37,000.00CDN for a loaded Forester with leather, sunroof, etc. ($26U.S.?)
FYI - the Pilot has a 3 year warranty - the Forester is 4 years.
Just another confused buyer looking for some advice....
Your comparison logic is like saying all SUV's have 4 wheels so why not compare the Subaru to a Cadilac Escalade?
The road noise I've seen in some treads is usually tire related. I also think in most other SUV's you probably hear so much rattles and body groans, you never get to hear the tires. The starting issue is probably new model teething issue.
Personally, I find the Subies overpriced for what you get. The Forester's not bad, but a few years ago the Outbacks where (and still are) very pricy for a 4WD wagon that realy doesn't give you a lot of interior room. They could drop a lot of the plastic chrome pieces too, unless you like that stuff.
Name 1 car you can get for $19K that can compare to a Legacy Sedan or Wagon in terms of features, power etc.
-mike
Subies are great, I just think you should compare similar cars. Just because all Subie's are 4WD, I would not compare them to all classes of SUV's.
For example, a loaded Outback can go for over 32K! I would probably compare it to an Audi Quatro Wagon since its got 4WD and its a small wagon.
No both appraisals were the same day which confused me. $16 vs $13.5
Jeff
$32K, again that is MSRP on the VDC Wagon. Actual street prices on the VDC are $27-$29K.
My original point was that you made a statement about Subies being expensive, yet you can't point to an AWD Sedan/wagon that costs $19K. If you want to make a statement that *SOME* subies are overpriced on MSRP, then that's fine.
-mike
I'm just lucky that there were no cars coming in either direction. As one passenger in my car remarked, "Your ABS just freaked out." This could be extremely dangerous.
Has anyone else experienced something like this on wet pavement or ice?
I called Honda and they were ho-hum. Probably didn't believe it or didn't care. That's why we need government over-regulation. I guess I'll have to call and badger the NHTSA until they investigate.
What I think may have happened is that once you reached the pavement, the tires regained traction and disengaged the ABS and that you then rolled through the stop sign. Remember that ABS will not stop you any faster - it only prevents the wheels from locking.
I drive over a metal grated bridge that has a slight curve at the end. I have felt the effect of sliding/drifting in the wet when turning and regaining traction with a jolt when hitting pavement again.
I'd first ask the Honda dealer to check the ABS system for faults. These systems are extremely sophisticated and have a number of self-test functions. If the system was releasing the brakes without wheel lockup, it would register a fault.
My guess is that the cattle grate started the ABS system cycling and since your first reaction was to keep pressing, the tires were continuing to skid on the wet pavement after the grate. At this point, you simply didn't have enough traction to get stopped in time, ABS or not.
I doubt there is any problem with your system.
- Mark
If it were me, I'd try it some more to pinpoint what's happening. As soon as ABS engages, apply more pedal force and see what happens. Of course I wouldn't try this if it's a busy intersection....
-Pete
The salesman told me that was normal and I must apply maximum pedal force when the ABS engages to get maximum braking capacity. Made sense, but needless to say, we were turned off by the Disco and went with the Pilot. No problems with the Pilot's braking on metal surfaces, the ABS comes on but it still stops like you'd expect.
Do you have another Honda dealer you can take it to?
-Pete
I was going to tell you again that you're probably imagining the problem, then then I remembered something that happened on a motorcycle one time.
I had a Yamaha R1 and got into what was called a "tank slapper". This is a violent oscillation of the handlebars from stop-to-stop that can happen in unusual circumstances of hard acceleration out of a bumpy corner in which the front tire is only intermittently touching the pavement. The oscillation stopped before spitting me off the bike, but I had a surprise at the next intersection - I pulled the brake lever and it came all the way to the handlebar. Absolutely no brakes. I managed to stop by pumping the lever, but for the first stroke or two, the brakes were absolutely gone.
What happens is that the pistons in the brake calipers rattle their way back in the calipers such that you can't pump enough fluid to them in one pedal stroke to get the brake pads bearing again on the discs. It takes a couple strokes to get the fluid back in the calipers such that the brakes are functioning again. It is a little like the delay you get when braking after going through standing water, but more severe and you have to pump the pedal a time or two to get any braking action at all.
I've never heard about this is a car, but this behaviour is well known on motorcycles. My bet is that the cattle grate set up a vibration that just happened to be at the right frequency to cause this to occur. It might not occur unless you cross the grate at just the right speed. It is also possible that the ABS system got very confused by the pedal being down and the car not stopping so it might also have been a contributor.
How to prevent? If you brake and the car doesn't respond, pump the brakes to get the fluid back into the calipers.
Can you go out to this intersection and see if you can duplicate the problem? I'd love to know if my theory is correct.
I suspect that any car might do this under the right circumstances, but perhaps Honda's design is more susceptible than others.
- Mark
I know, drifting off subject...back to the Pilot. The Pilot does a great job of towing my 5x8 trailer with two motorcycles on it.
-Pete
Again, trying to get back on subject ... I'm going to be shopping for a Pilot this fall and it will have to do the towing job that my current body-on-frame ML320 is doing - 1K utility trailer and a couple of 600-lb sport touring bikes. The ML is rated for 5K while the Honda is 3.5K, but I'm hopeful it will do the job about as well.
Do you have any issue with the lack of a D4 on the tranny?
- Mark
I have mixed feelings about the Pilot's lack of D4 while towing. At first it bugged me, D3 was to low and D4 would be perfect. I have now come to the conclusion of leaving it in D(5) and letting the grade-logic work - and it does work, most of the time. It utilized 4th gear when it needs it and seems to hold the gear pretty well without hunting. Occasionally I still manually shift into D3 when I'm about to head down a real steep hill that the grade-logic hasn't picked up on yet.
If I had the MD-X I'd probably leave it in D4 exclusively while towing. Since I'm only towing 1500 lbs, it doesn't seem to bad leaving it in D(5).
-Pete