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I was at the Toronto show also and the Ions all had people looking in them. It was not the busiest area, but they were garnering interest. The VUE's were getting more attention over all though. As for the Ecotec, I have one in our Alero and it's quite smooth and powerful, not "crude" at all. I would agree it a little less refined than the Honda 4 though.
Look at CR's test of the ION vs. Cavalier. The Cav was 2 seconds quicker to 60 than the ION with the same engine and about the same weight. The only difference was tranny. That has to be the problem, right?
I am surprised GM didn't use the Cavalier tranny. The Cav might be one of the oldest designs on the road, but it's got one of the best small car powertrains available today.
Also glad to see the Ion was garnering more interest at the Toronto autoshow than the day I went.
Vuefor2: Which Hyundai did your sister have. I have had two (Excel and Elantra) plus a freebie from work (Sonata). All were reliable and basically good cars. Even consumer reports now recognizes the improvements they have made and recommends a couple of models and measures the rest as being "average". Hyundais were bad for a long time but have improved. Meanwhile the Saturns were always good cars - I just wish they had improved as much as the Hyundais and they would be serious contenders in this market rather than just another decent car.
Did you see the April Consumer Reports? According to JD Power, Hyundai scored with Toyota and Honda in the initial quality survey. What about Saturn?
dunworth : In the grand scheme of things, an extra $15-20 a month in gas not really killing me. Of course no one was complaining when gas prices were really low (58-62 cents a liter).
I'll take any Japanese car or most American cars over a Korean car.
I have heard some horror stories about blown head gaskets and high oil consumption in mid series Saturn SL models but no-one I know who owns one has ever experienced these problems. I sold my 92 SL with 215,000 km on it with no major issues and still see it around town. I sold my 2001 SL with 35,000 km on it and again it was trouble free. Of course that's only 2 out of the 3 million or so vehicles they have sold since around 1991 so perhaps I just got lucky twice!
So far the Ecotec powered Cavaliers
/Sunfires/Grand Am/Aleros/Saturns L have been reliable so let's hope it continues to be so in the Ion.
I have heard that alot about the ION. Saturn seems to really have missed the boat with this one. Someone right here said it best earlier: Saturn built a car to be competitive in the class instead of outstanding. I would have thought they would have aimed as high as they could have, but maybe not...
Saturn's reliabilty went downhill (its not as bad as some people make it out to be) when GM pulled them back under their umbrella instead of the perceived stand alone company in the early 90's. I'm not sure if it more disappointment with Saturn then it is the car is bad. Meaning, I think people expect more from Saturn and are disappointed with this release.
Just my 2 cents.
The ECOTEC 2.2 has been around for a while. Its first global use is in the 00 L series which debuted in 99. To say this is not a proven engine is ignorant. The highest milage 2.2 I know of is 180K miles but I have seen many already in excess of 100K with zero problems. Recognizing you may not believe me you can always go and talk to anyone who works on Saturns, or has information on warrenty claims for this engine.
As for power this engine is quite capable. It is designed for multi-purpose use. In the L series and ION it is tuned for economy. Granted the peak horsepower is not extremely high. Check out the torque curve. 90% of its power is generated at 1500 RPM.
http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/ecotec_tour/images/tc_l- g.jpg
This is the same engine used in the new Saab producing well in excess of 200 HP with turbo. If you're want to read about GM racing's build up of the ECOTEC feel free to read this article.
http://www.year2032.com/ecotec.htm
In contrast, Chevrolet actually impressed me. Surprisingly enough, the Malibu still strikes me as having the nicest interior of any affordable GM car. The solid thunk of the door was pleasing. Front and rear seats seemed comfortable and plenty roomy. The Malibu may be Chevy's oldest offering and rather bland to look at, but by golly they got the overall design right. Even the Cavalier had a more solid sound to the doors than all of Saturn's cars. And Pontiac managed to make the always ungainly looking Sunfire into one hot looking show car with a tasteful ground effects package and nice wheels. I think Saturn could learn a few things from its sister companies.
dunworth : VUE has a "recommended" from CR. S-series has had one in the past so the ION may get one at some point. Like I said, there are better car mags out there, take it all with a grain of salt.
echristi : From what the owners seem to be experiencing, the ION seems pretty trouble free.
afk_x : None of GMs recent new engines have had any issues that I have heard of. Contrast that with Toyota and their V6 sludge fiasco.
lngtonge18 : What a shock that you hate the Saturns.
~alpha
yeah, that was the same point I tried to make.
tomorrow another trip to the auto show. Senior citizen discount day. Maybe the Buick area will be packed LOL! I will check out the Ion again. If I was shopping compacts right now these are the things I went away from the autoshow thinking.......(without driving of course)
Protege....good looking, excellent dash, very roomy and comfy.
Lancer.....quietly impresses, the room is very good, the dash in tan looks very nice and is laid out well. Angular styling cues envogue...good deals right now. Nice airy view out of cabin.
Civic.....maybe the hybrid, but otherwise better choices
Elantra....sure its getting accolades and is cheap, but the interior still has that smell and looks pretty cheap to my eyes still. In fact, the interior of the Accent looks better. The GT leather is a nice idea but Walmart sells leather jackets with nicer leather. Sheet metal and paint look flimsy and won't last more than a couple years.
Cavalier / Sunfire..they still make those? (The GXP Sunfire is kinda spiffy)
Golf / Jetta.....nice cars, but don't want the young urban 'almost yuppie' stigma that goes with it.....small back seats.......high quality interior.....high prices to match....Jetta sedan is tidy looking but do I really want to be seen in a chick car? Base motors are wheezers.....reliable? Diesel option nice to have. Would make more sense to get a very lightly used Infiniti G20 instead of Jetta.
Focus......a nice package, but starting to get bored with it. Too bad no SVT at the show. The wagon would be the one to get. My sister loves her ZX3. I would wait for the 2.3l PZEV motor in 2004.
Neon....NO SRT at the show! Argh....they had a yellow SXT to throw us off.....I liked the Neon when I rented I a couple years ago....except for the 3 speed auto and engine. An SRT would fit the bill nicely in yellow and with the sport seats.....a lesser priced Neon is ok but I think is surpassed by others.
Corolla....pretty nice overall, but don't get the black interior. Car is a bit bland. I had the PRizm with the same motor and I know its a willing revver and pretty smooth in comparison to other 4's. I would get a MAtrix or Vibe in lieu of the sedan though.
Sentra......nice front part of the cabin, but styling is dated. Good quality inside though. A could do a SpecV in a pinch, if I put leather in it. The cheaper versions of Sentra hold their own also. Back seat is tight.
Aerio...the sleeper! Very comfy and user friendly interior (except for digital gauges). Spacious. AWD available. Sedan is sharp looking. Hatch can be sharp in right color. Good warranty, awesome deals to be had. Don't have to stoop down to Korean car, you can get the Japanese car. Unique. Double DIN stereo slot for that cd/tape unit with the mini plug input. Most important dash feature (stereo) is right there prominently for your consumption. A pop out monitor screen would rock, in that location for some in car DVD. Excellent seats, seat materials, seating position.
Ion.....hate to bash it anymore.......but still the car seems to be confused about its sexuality or something. Needs improvements on many fronts. Yet it has plastic panels. Looks distinctive and off-putting at the same time. trunk is big. Lots of ergonomic and finish quality issues. Ecotec powertrain a plus compared to pushrods. Flat, low, soft seats (except Ion2 and 3 get height adjuster). The center dash, ugly alloy wheels, and queer steering wheel put the dagger deep in the heart and bleeds a lonely death in the corner of the show floor. Like it some, but the things i dislike greatly outweigh the things I do.
So if I were to rank in terms of desirability(without having driven) and considering only cheaper versions
1. Protege
2. (tie) Aerio
2. (tie) Focus
2. (tie) Lancer
5. Corolla
6. (tie) Sentra
6. (tie) Golf / Jetta
8. (tie) Neon
8. (tie) Civic
10. (tie) Ion (would just put a paper bag over the steering wheel)
10. (tie) Cavalier
12. (tie) Elantra
13. Sunfire
14. Echo
15. Accent
16. Spectra
the order of this list fluctuates a lot, changes daily
Also, be careful out there. You seen the crash test scores of the Grand Ma/Alero???
Reg : Saw a Lancer for the first time last week. Wasn't to impressed with it's looks at all. Very blaa. I agree with you on the Protege though, probably one of the best small cars on the road today.
alpha : The reason I say fiasco is because Toyota still will hardly own up to it.
ingtongue18: So what did you really think of the Ion... Good post. Actually at the Toronto autoshow in Feb, I was more impressed with the new Chevrolet Aveo, (rebadged from the Daewoo Kalos). It was a subcompact from GMDAT in Korea with better design and fit and finish than any Cavalier or Ion. Still too early to sell about the mechanicals. I know Daewoos weren't the greatest in the past.
regfootball: My rankings are as follows
Group 1: Civic/Acura El and Corolla - industry benchmarks for quality, reliability and resale. Good appearance and decent driving experience.
Group 2: Sentra and Protege - just as good as Tier one and both are more entertaining to drive. They rank slightly lower in quality, fuel econ and resale but for long term ownership it is not an issue. Usually available at a better discount than Group 1.
Group 3: Elantra, Lancer, Aerio, Ion. These cars are all better than their reputation and each of these cars is nearly as good as Group 2.
Group 4: Focus and Neon. Good fun cars with appalling reliability stats. The Ford would be Group 2 if not for the 11 recalls.
Group 5: Cavalier/Sunfire and Kia Spectra. For those needing a truly cheap new car. There are no really bad cars anymore but these are the least good. Bottom rung quality and no resale value.
I have not included premium compacts like the VW or the Subaru.
Vocus - Stand by what I said based on my experience. Korean cars may be better, but everything I have seen and heard point to American and Japanese models being better. German cars are nothing to write home about either, same as American on average. Some Japanese brands are about the same as American also, average.
Echristi - We love our Ion 2, its been completely bug / trouble free for the 2+ months we have had it.
Alpha -- One reason we didn't go for a Corolla was the stinky rotten egg smell that the climate control system was spewing in the Corolla we tested. The salesman told us it would go away but some people in the Corolla forum were saying it was not going away. Toyota was not doing anything for owners either.
Yes I agree with you which I actually stated in my post but I may not have been clear, as well as the actual transaction price issue (even though MSRPs are fairly close). Good point about the slightly higher insurance rates - I definitely notice the higher premiums compared with the Saturns.
Are there any GM/Saturn/ dealers/employees on this board? Are you guys happy with the Ion as the product you will have to sell as the main volume vehicle for the next 5 (hopefully not 12) years. Before I actually saw an Ion and was taking my SL in for service, the guys there at the local Saturn dealer were very upbeat about the Ion. Having actually seen it, sat in it and driven the car, I think if I was a Saturn sales guy/franchise owner I would not be a happy camper. Opinions?
dindak.....the lancer depends on what color you see it in.....a biege lancer looks pretty nice but the yellow ones not as nice.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Regfootball: Those Aerio seats are impressive aren't they? They are extremely comfortable and the driving position is about perfect. It was one of the biggest selling features for me after encountering the uncomfortable driving position of the Matrix.
ab348: Your thoughts are interesting because most people find the Aerio sedan the ungainly looking one. In wagon form, the Aerio has much better proportions, although it could use 16" wheels. But I must say, the Aerio SX looks no more ungainly than the Matrix.
dunworth : Saw today, Honda Accord and Toyota Camry are the top 2 stolen cars in the US. Watch the rates get ratcheted up again!
Actually I don't know why GM does not follow Ford's lead with the Focus. I have driven many of the GM's Opel/Vauxhaul products in Europe. They are quite good and if the styling is not dumbed down, they would be good cars here. Saturn spent $1 billion to put plastic body panels and crappy looking interior on a stretched Vectra to make the L series. The Vectra is a nice car as is and should have been the new Ion/S - they should not have dumbed it down for the US. Ditto for the old Opel Omega - it should have been the L not the Vectra (don't get me started on the Catera - in Europe the car is a full size but mid priced not a premium car like it was sold here). These cars won't sell as Chevys but Saturn customers would, especially since in Canada Saturn is sold togther with another GM of Europe subsidiary, Saab.
It's not only the recalls though, it's the bad reliability of the vehicle overall. My co-worker has an 00 Focus she bought with 40K on it, about a year ago. She has had nothing but problems and recalls on the car sine she got it. And of course, due to negative equity, she can't afford to sell or trade the car right now.
I also found an ION3 already on the used car lot. It has 1047 miles on it, and it's at Heritage Saturn of BelAir, MD. My guess, one that came back because the owner hated it. It's automatic, and the price is $15,495.
~alpha
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I have owned an ION 2, 5 speed manual, for 6 weeks. I find the seats perfectly comfortable. The EPA estimates of 26 mpg/city and 33 mpg/hwy seem about right. When I first saw the center IP in an ION, I hated it; now I love it. Now it seems really strange to get in a car with the gages hidden behind the steering wheel.
Well if you pay closer to list with few (if any) incentives, pay more for insurance and your car doesn't get stolen, you are all set to break even on that trick. Of course driving a Camry is like driving a Japanese Buick so you will have loads of fun in the process. Yawn.
By comparison, what exactly is the mission of the ION, or any Saturn? Certainly, it isnt to set standards in refinement, ride, handling, fuel economy, materials quality, or value. I completely agree with the statement someone recently made regarding Saturn building a satisfactory car when it should have aimed to build an outstanding one. None of Saturns current offerings, save MAYBE the VUE, warrant a second look IMO.
~alpha
ps- sometimes I feel like driving was God's own gift to me exclusively. this is not to say that I claim to be the best driver, simply that (going back to your statement of fun), I could derive some iota of pleasure even from an 81 Diesel Chevette if you had one to give me.
And I forgot the Subaru Impreza and Kia Rio.....I would have the Rio side by side with the Spectra and the Impreza would be roughly where the Sentra is. Tough to get in out of Imprezas.....
I would boost the golf / jetta up a little higher too, but still not at the top, a bit pricey. Would put it above the Corolla for sure and probably with the tie for number 2. I just don't like the yuppie [non-permissible content removed] image that goes with the car. My friend called the other day and said he traded his Accord coupe for a Jetta turbo wagon 5 speed so I will check it out this weekend. Hope he drives the **** out of it so I can see if its actually a quick car. The Jetta wagon trunk is huge by the way.
As far as the Aerio, the sedan is actually the sharp looking one.....the rear tail design is nice. If you've seen one in black its even sharper. The comment about the Matrix seating is true, for some reason the Matrix seats are kinda soft......the Aerio in Comparison has better front seats.
I have a renewed interest in PT Cruisers after the show visits. A base model with rebates runs with this crowd and the extra space and better seating position has some pull. The turbo is a nice option but that becomes too pricey.
Bottom line for Ion, there's just no way I could justify it when there are multiple better choices.
This engine has NOT been in use for 2 years. It started its life in the L series back in August of 1999. That is 3.5 years.
You may doubt what I say but I am confident that time will continue to prove what the last 3.5 years already has....
I wish it they would have made better use of the interior space.
I wish they would have made the drag co better which would have improved highway gas mileage.
I am exceedingly pleased with how the car drives. Very composed, smooth and quiet at 80 MPH. Especially noteworthy is the lack of noise at speed. Some minor road noise and not much else. I haven't driven the Corolla this fast but the Protege, Civic, and Focus have much more noise.
I am pleased with the looks, not because I particularly care for them but many people are coming in to check out the ION because of how it looks.
Mostly I am sad because the reviews have been so horrific, unjustified in many cases. This means many many people will never get a chance to see how good the ION is.
Best small car out there? Nah. Best for the money when you consider the current incentives? Easily...
Cdavidhess - Center IP is just fine. It's not hard to see and it's no different than me looking to the right of my desk at my computer monitor. I can see why you would like it better, me I'm indifferent.
Alpha - The Ion has about the best highway ride of any small car and like Afk_x says, VERY quiet. It's probably the biggest car in it's class and has the biggest trunk. I put it right up with Corolla and Protege in terms of refinement.
Regfootball - Kia Rio - HAHAHA.