I am somewhat torn between the styling of the Solstice and the Sky.
My design preference is modern. So the Sky should be a slam dunk.
But much as the first Miata was a near perfect update of classic '50s Brit Roadsters, the Solstice exterior is wonderfully true to its '50s Italian design inspiration. At the Auto Show I just kept coming back to look at it.
It is really strange to find myself liking what it essentially a 50 year old design. But wow.
In the end, I think it will be the dealer that pushes my decision. I know Saturn will do me right. I have a sneaky suspicion the Pontiac sales person is going to be all cool and friendly right up to and including the point where he tells me I either have to pay 2k over msrp or wait a year. That kind of stuff is not for me.
well, none of the cars we are talking about HERE cost more than a house
and I'm not saying it's a complete waste of time to consider resale value, but it is pretty low on the list. There are more important ways to spend your time and money than fretting over resale on a $20,000 purchase. Unless your time isn't worth much, which is true for a lot of people, I agree. If you make $5/hour, then your time is worth less than if you make $20/hour. You also are less able to afford a bad resale decision.
Actually, if you ARE buying a car and are worried about your money, then, yes, you SHOULD buy a junker and drive it into the ground. Any other approach is stupid from a purely financial perspective.
But very few of us buy cars from a purely financial perspective.
I suggest you buy used and invest your money. But that's if money is your primary concern. Sometimes there is fun involved. And being the first on the block can be fun. And it always costs you money.
I see roadster purchases pretty much the same way I saw motorcycle purchases in my late teens.
This is a fun hobby and diversion.
I know it is not going to make me money. I base my roadster buying decision on what percentage of my fun money I want to throw at a car. If I buy one, I plan to keep it at least 5 years. There will be some major road trips over those 5 years.
So resale is out the window even if I buy a Porsche.
Thanks for the 0-60 times. Low fives is very fast and at least makes up partially for the extra $10000 in price (per spyderone above). Hopefully Pontiac will not charge that much for the performance option in the future. I wonder if the performance engine will do better than low 5's?
One thing to keep in mind is that the measured 0-60 times can vary widely depending on everything from the driver to when the time elapse starts to ambient conditions. I did a google search on the S2000 and it varied from 5.3 to 6.4. GM's measurement procedure is very conservative. I see C&D has the S2000 at 5.5 seconds so you are really dong very well to get low 5's on yours. They tend to do whatever it takes to get the lowest times using a common procedure. I have found that GM's stated times are about .5 seconds slower than C&D's. Therefore the 7.2 will turn into ~6.7 at C&D.
I've had 3 convertibles - just traded my last one - and I am about as hard-core as you can get on top-down. Some folks even commented that they liked passing me on rainy days because that's the only time they got to see my car with the top up. However, there are times when even the most die-hard cannot handle the top-down and there were plenty of times that I had the top down, but sitting at a dead stop, the AC was blowing full-blast on me. I, personally, wouldn't own a car, convertible or hard top, without AC and a convertible without power windows makes me scratch my head and think too hard. There have been plenty of times i would get into rain...need to put the top up, either catch a red light and do it quickly, pull off the road and pop it up, but if you didn't have power windows, you'd be laying across the seat to get your windows up as well? Another option I wouldn't do without in a convertible.
I see that the sky comes standard with A/C, power windows, LSD, keyless entry, cruise, fog lamps, and CD player, so if you want those features, the cost difference may not be great.
I think the solstice looks better outside, the sky, inside.
The base Miata will be $20,995.00. The base, which Mazda is calling a Club Spec model, will not have air conditioning.
Or, pretty much what I said earlier. These stripper roadsters without aircon and a lot of other goodies most want are really meant for ever growing pool people who want to tune them or use them in the amateur stock racing circuits.
Pontiac probably could have helped itself by making this clear. Those of us with Miata experience already know about club racing. Many being drawn to Roadsters for the first time by the beauty of the Solstice apparently did not know this.
Mazda has to take the Solstice seriouly. The Solstice kills the new Miata on looks, inside and out. I think the 2.4 litre may be better than Miata 4. I also think the Kappa frame is going to deliver very tight rail like handling with little shimmy that the Miata will be hard pressed to meet without bringing in after market anti-sway and thicker strut brace bars.
The Miata's with the sport suspension, air and other add-ons will be about 400 lbs less than the Solstice.
Will have to wait for the comparos.
As it is, the Solstice still beats the Miata by a grand.
The Miata Club Spec comes with power windows and locks. Believe the Solstice base will be manual.
On the other hand, the Miata Club Spec comes with 16 inch wheels, while the base Solstice comes with 18 inchers.
I speced the Solstice here at Edmunds and the Miata at the Miata site. If I went Mazda, I would take the Miata sport with a cloth interior. It would still have only 17" wheels. As the site talks about run flats, I suspect Mazda will not offer a spare either.
With the Solstice, I would add the limited slip, power package, anti-locks air-con and upgrade stereo.
Both coming pretty close in price. The Solstice about $23,495, the Miata $23,995.
Given the definite advantage in looks, the fact I hate my local Mazda dealer, the larger wheels, possible better GMAC financing, the Solstice would have to fall pretty flat in the ride and handling comparos for me to pick the Miata.
Pontiac has 9100 pre-orders. They have just started production and the first 1000 will go to the ones ordered from The Apprentice. They will start delivery early August with the first 1000 and probably go thru end of October. Then they will start with the next 8100 pre-orders. According to Pontiac they will eventually have a target production of 1500/month. If they start production on those in September/October and assuming they are up to full production it will take over 5 months to build the remaining 8100, so you are probably looking at those being delivered through Jan/Feb 2006. If you are in the market you will probably not be able to get one until Spring or Summer 2006. I ordered mine on 5/19/2005 and my order has not been picked up yet. A lot of this can also depend upon the dealership that you order through and the allocation that they have been given. Good Luck if you want one!!!
Well I guess that is up to interpretation. GM has orders for 10,000 cars. With production ramp up, the low volume this car was tooled for and the Sky coming in it looks like 10,000 is about how many '06's they will build. So any cars not ordered yet will probably be '07's.
Question is where are the 10,000 going? They are going to dealers and you would probably have to find out if all the orders are from customers or will some be for dealer stock.
Hey Spyderone, if you printed above, I apologize in advance. Given the recent debate, I think we would all like to see how you configured your Solstice.
Just read GM may be close to announcing the SS version will not have the 2.0 supercharged engine.
Instead, it will have an all new 2.2 litre intercooled turbo charged engine cranking out 250 h.p. Put some serious stiff shocks and some honking brakes on that thing, and it may even give older cousin Corvette a charge
Not sure, the solstice lists at 2860 lbs, and the convertible vette at 3199. The vette has 11% more weight but 60% more power.
The vette has a 10 inch longer wheelbase and more nose weight, so the solstice ought to handle a bit better, though. The vette has world class speed, but to me it felt kinda clunky to drive.
also short read above from Robert Lutz. I like his enthusiasm on the Solstice project and his comments about focusing the wealth of the global GM build team in a positive direction regarding cars, not huge SUV's and huge pick-em-up trucks. I mean, any kind of hutz-pah coming from GM is a good thing. Talk about a vanilla-ish car company for way too many years.
The Solstice test-drivers give it a good report above in the link-take a look. Neutral handling around corners? Does that mean there's a lack of understeer when slinking around corners in your Solstice? Shipping the first week of August now-whoo-hoo! Enjoy your first-run Solstice's people!
Neutral steering means not prone to either over or under steer.
The Solstice is close to 50/50 balance and has good but not overwhelming torque. It should have neutral steering. It is a good sign the experts are saying it does.
The higher h.p. version will probably have some oversteer. Not welcome for the more conservative, but desired by the enthusiast.
I participated in a GM ride and drive for dealer employees and got to drive the Solstice on the open road with a group of 10 other Solstice's and on a closed track against the Mazda Miata, Honda S2000. All I can say is I was very impressed with the Solstice, its much nicer and roomier than the others and it drives great.
The Solstice I ordered Is Mysterious with Ebony Leather Int, Convenience Pkg., Power Pkg., Premium Pkg., ABS, AC, and floor mats. Just about loaded. Decided to go with base AM/FM/CD/6 Speakers. Total price inc destination is $23095+ taxes, title and license fee. I am in the first allocation of 4. I think I should receive it in November!!!
I have a sly on order..with everything but the smokers package, chrome wheels and multi disk CD....to the one above I have XM/Onstar, limited slip differential, upgraded stereo and speakers....TTL out the door for just under $26..dealer updated me last night...called me at home...he is expecting a late Oct delivery.....after his 5 EOP cars come in Aug-Sep
shows the "first 1000" EOP cars shipping next week..assuming that means the first week in Aug......and the non "first 1000" editions coming Sept 05....maybe there is hope yet!!!
well it was MSRP..all the way....but I expected as much,...glad my dealer didnt do an incentive mark up..perhaps most dealers heeded GMs advice......getting closer......waiting patiently now
GTO, the hefty rebates to move the brand new G6, and the hype surrounding the Solstice - Do you people really think that the Pontiac dealers are not gonna bump the heck of these cars MSRP's when they hit the lots?
I dont think you will see wide spread incentive mark ups on the solstice.....I have had a written sales contract for three months now at MSRP.....all the first 1000 are at MSRP..and most that I have talked too on various forums..seem to have no MSRP mark ups on the dealership's frist allocation after the initial thousan...at least those that have written agreements in place....the G6 by Pontiac standards is a great seller.....approaching 100,000 by years end..of course not on par with the Camcord...which are pushing 300,000.....but price, quality and gas mileage is is comparable or better....I just think GM did a bad marketing job and people are still leery of the GM brand from past years......
I bought my first GM brand since 79 last year....Chevy Malibu Maxx and am quite happy with it....and have the solistice on order for a second car!
there are some exceptions of course...and some one will pay the mark up.....if they want too..my advice..run away from that dealer as fast as you can..there are others out there who would like to keep you as a customer..just not sell you a car...
if you havent placed your order for a solstice yet...you are probably better off waiting to spring of 06 and you can compare both models...with the production just starting on the solstice....new orders now can probably expect 2d allocation deliveries...meaning Jan-Mar 06.....
There are so many intangibles in what becomes a collectible. I think it would be hard to tell.
Looking back at some of the cars that have become collectible, there is usually some unique configuration that makes one example of a popular brand more valuable than others.
For instance, I believe in '64, Chevrolet made an Impala SS with a particularly honking engine. While Chevrolet made a lot of Impalas before and after, this limited SS run became a legend. Now people are paying close to 100k for clean verifiable versions.
It will be easy to verify the date and time one gets their Solstice. I am not sure that alone will be enough to make it collectible. But, consider if GM makes only a limited GT run with the 2.0 supercharged engine before switching over to the 2.2 turbocharged. Consider further that the 2.0 supercharged version gets a reputation as being the best configuration of the car. That to me is what would make a special collector edition. (n.b.: I am just using the engines as a speculative example. I am not commenting at all on the quality of the engines.)
In case you were wondering if the Solstice was a harbinger of good things to come for GM, here's the reply from a local GM dealer re my Solstice inquiry:
"GM pricing wont be available. Solstice is a brand new vehicle. Most people are charging $10k over sticker. I will charge you $7k. We are the biggest dealership and only get 8 the first year. We already have people signed up. So most of them will be gone very fast. Please let me know if this will work."
At that price you have to cross shop other vehicles - vehicles that the Solstice can't compete with. I can probably get a two-year old 325 cic for a few bucks more than the Solstice, and I haven't heard anyone say the Solstice is likely to be better than the 325cic. (I know they are "different" but they are both convertibles, and sporty, so I cross-shop them.)
So much for the Solstice introducing people to GM, eh?
Your dealer must be living in a dream world if he thinks people will pay l0000 over list for this car. At that price you can get a G35 or 350Z or a whole bunch of others. Such greed is what gives GM such a bad name. GM should get rid of this dealer pronto, or refuse to send him cars. Would anyone on this thread pay such a price for the Solstice? Heck, for that price you can get a Honda S2000 and get some change back. This guy is nutz.
"Such greed is what gives GM such a bad name. GM should get rid of this dealer pronto, or refuse to send him cars. Would anyone on this thread pay such a price for the Solstice? "
Honda dealers guoged the S2000 buyers at first. Chrysler dealers tried to guoge the Crossfire buyers.
Unless Adp3's unscrupulous dealer is in Canada, it would be impossible for GM to fire or otherwise discipline a Pontiac dealer for charging above MSRP. Federal Sherman Act and all. Been the law of the land since the 1930's.
I would say that dealer is the exception and the one hurting the GM image..Im dealing with a major dealer here in MD and he is charging MSRP for the vehicle...yes it is a hot one..and the first thousand early order ones should hit the dealerships starting next week......I have a written contract TTL out the door at MSRP.....and yes...at 10K....he is hurting the GM brand...and showing a greed side...unfortunately not much GM can do about that......they encouraged all their dealerships to sell the car at MSRP.....some dont listen I guess!! over on the solstice forum...another site ....all are paying only MSRP....so this dealer is stupid in my opinion..and anyone who pays that over MSRP is as well!!!!
Sorry, I was jesting. Trying to help Adp3 out and all.
I wonder if maybe the real estate bubble fever is hitting the auto dealers out there in California. The sales people probably figure if a house can double its value in a few years, why can't a Solstice add a third in a few months.
As it happens, I understand the two Pontiac dealers near where I live in Chicago are charging MSRP the same as your dealer out East.
My problem here is that it appears the Solstices are spoken for at least until sometime next spring. I can put my name on a list in case someone drops out. But the dealer closest to me already has about 6 people waiting per allotment.
I am going to take your earlier advice and wait until the Sky is available, test them both and probably put my deposit down in April or May '06.
Comments
My design preference is modern. So the Sky should be a slam dunk.
But much as the first Miata was a near perfect update of classic '50s Brit Roadsters, the Solstice exterior is wonderfully true to its '50s Italian design inspiration. At the Auto Show I just kept coming back to look at it.
It is really strange to find myself liking what it essentially a 50 year old design. But wow.
In the end, I think it will be the dealer that pushes my decision. I know Saturn will do me right. I have a sneaky suspicion the Pontiac sales person is going to be all cool and friendly right up to and including the point where he tells me I either have to pay 2k over msrp or wait a year. That kind of stuff is not for me.
and I'm not saying it's a complete waste of time to consider resale value, but it is pretty low on the list. There are more important ways to spend your time and money than fretting over resale on a $20,000 purchase. Unless your time isn't worth much, which is true for a lot of people, I agree. If you make $5/hour, then your time is worth less than if you make $20/hour. You also are less able to afford a bad resale decision.
Actually, if you ARE buying a car and are worried about your money, then, yes, you SHOULD buy a junker and drive it into the ground. Any other approach is stupid from a purely financial perspective.
But very few of us buy cars from a purely financial perspective.
I suggest you buy used and invest your money. But that's if money is your primary concern. Sometimes there is fun involved. And being the first on the block can be fun. And it always costs you money.
This is a fun hobby and diversion.
I know it is not going to make me money. I base my roadster buying decision on what percentage of my fun money I want to throw at a car. If I buy one, I plan to keep it at least 5 years. There will be some major road trips over those 5 years.
So resale is out the window even if I buy a Porsche.
Front:
independent short/long arm, with 27.2 mm stabilizer bar
Rear:
independent short/long arm, with 24.2 mm stabilizer bar
Steering type:
power rack-and-pinion
Steering ratio:
16.4:1
Steering wheel turns, lock-to-lock:
2.7
Turning circle, curb-to-curb (ft / m):
35.1 / 10.7
Look at the steering wheel turn ratio! That is go kart territory. Adult fun at its best.
One thing to keep in mind is that the measured 0-60 times can vary widely depending on everything from the driver to when the time elapse starts to ambient conditions. I did a google search on the S2000 and it varied from 5.3 to 6.4. GM's measurement procedure is very conservative. I see C&D has the S2000 at 5.5 seconds so you are really dong very well to get low 5's on yours. They tend to do whatever it takes to get the lowest times using a common procedure. I have found that GM's stated times are about .5 seconds slower than C&D's. Therefore the 7.2 will turn into ~6.7 at C&D.
I think the solstice looks better outside, the sky, inside.
The base Miata will be $20,995.00. The base, which Mazda is calling a Club Spec model, will not have air conditioning.
Or, pretty much what I said earlier. These stripper roadsters without aircon and a lot of other goodies most want are really meant for ever growing pool people who want to tune them or use them in the amateur stock racing circuits.
Pontiac probably could have helped itself by making this clear. Those of us with Miata experience already know about club racing. Many being drawn to Roadsters for the first time by the beauty of the Solstice apparently did not know this.
Mazda has to take the Solstice seriouly. The Solstice kills the new Miata on looks, inside and out. I think the 2.4 litre may be better than Miata 4. I also think the Kappa frame is going to deliver very tight rail like handling with little shimmy that the Miata will be hard pressed to meet without bringing in after market anti-sway and thicker strut brace bars.
The Miata's with the sport suspension, air and other add-ons will be about 400 lbs less than the Solstice.
Will have to wait for the comparos.
As it is, the Solstice still beats the Miata by a grand.
The Miata Club Spec comes with power windows and locks. Believe the Solstice base will be manual.
On the other hand, the Miata Club Spec comes with 16 inch wheels, while the base Solstice comes with 18 inchers.
I speced the Solstice here at Edmunds and the Miata at the Miata site. If I went Mazda, I would take the Miata sport with a cloth interior. It would still have only 17" wheels. As the site talks about run flats, I suspect Mazda will not offer a spare either.
With the Solstice, I would add the limited slip, power package, anti-locks air-con and upgrade stereo.
Both coming pretty close in price. The Solstice about $23,495, the Miata $23,995.
Given the definite advantage in looks, the fact I hate my local Mazda dealer, the larger wheels, possible better GMAC financing, the Solstice would have to fall pretty flat in the ride and handling comparos for me to pick the Miata.
Question is where are the 10,000 going? They are going to dealers and you would probably have to find out if all the orders are from customers or will some be for dealer stock.
I do not know.
Instead, it will have an all new 2.2 litre intercooled turbo charged engine cranking out 250 h.p. Put some serious stiff shocks and some honking brakes on that thing, and it may even give older cousin Corvette a charge
The vette has a 10 inch longer wheelbase and more nose weight, so the solstice ought to handle a bit better, though. The vette has world class speed, but to me it felt kinda clunky to drive.
Nevetheless, 250 ponies in a roadster that would probably base around 27k or less even is some serious fun for not a lot of serious dollars.
http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/
The Solstice test-drivers give it a good report above in the link-take a look. Neutral handling around corners? Does that mean there's a lack of understeer when slinking around corners in your Solstice? Shipping the first week of August now-whoo-hoo! Enjoy your first-run Solstice's people!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The Solstice is close to 50/50 balance and has good but not overwhelming torque. It should have neutral steering. It is a good sign the experts are saying it does.
The higher h.p. version will probably have some oversteer. Not welcome for the more conservative, but desired by the enthusiast.
I have to get off the fence, decide whether I want a Solstice or Sky, and get down to my dealer with my deposit.
From the examples I've heard so far, this does not appear to be widespread yet.
Two things may help the consumer here.
First is the aforementioned pressure from GM to keep the dealers at MSRP.
Second is the Saturn factor. No dicker sticker puts the consumer at MSRP all the time, but also keeps Saturn there.
If Pontiac says no Solstice for me unless I tack 3k to the MSRP, I can say good bye Pontiac, hello Saturn.
I bought my first GM brand since 79 last year....Chevy Malibu Maxx and am quite happy with it....and have the solistice on order for a second car!
there are some exceptions of course...and some one will pay the mark up.....if they want too..my advice..run away from that dealer as fast as you can..there are others out there who would like to keep you as a customer..just not sell you a car...
I'm not saying that that is why I would buy the Solstice. Am just curious.
Looking back at some of the cars that have become collectible, there is usually some unique configuration that makes one example of a popular brand more valuable than others.
For instance, I believe in '64, Chevrolet made an Impala SS with a particularly honking engine. While Chevrolet made a lot of Impalas before and after, this limited SS run became a legend. Now people are paying close to 100k for clean verifiable versions.
It will be easy to verify the date and time one gets their Solstice. I am not sure that alone will be enough to make it collectible. But, consider if GM makes only a limited GT run with the 2.0 supercharged engine before switching over to the 2.2 turbocharged. Consider further that the 2.0 supercharged version gets a reputation as being the best configuration of the car. That to me is what would make a special collector edition. (n.b.: I am just using the engines as a speculative example. I am not commenting at all on the quality of the engines.)
"GM pricing wont be available. Solstice is a brand new vehicle. Most
people are charging $10k over sticker. I will charge you $7k. We are
the biggest dealership and only get 8 the first year. We already have
people signed up. So most of them will be gone very fast. Please let me
know if this will work."
At that price you have to cross shop other vehicles - vehicles that the Solstice can't compete with. I can probably get a two-year old 325 cic for a few bucks more than the Solstice, and I haven't heard anyone say the Solstice is likely to be better than the 325cic. (I know they are "different" but they are both convertibles, and sporty, so I cross-shop them.)
So much for the Solstice introducing people to GM, eh?
Honda dealers guoged the S2000 buyers at first. Chrysler dealers tried to guoge the Crossfire buyers.
Unless Adp3's unscrupulous dealer is in Canada, it would be impossible for GM to fire or otherwise discipline a Pontiac dealer for charging above MSRP. Federal Sherman Act and all. Been the law of the land since the 1930's.
I'll give other dealers a shot
Sounds as though pao's dealer is pretty cool.
Of course you could break in your new Solstice with a cross country
Pao, can you help a Solstice lover out?
I wonder if maybe the real estate bubble fever is hitting the auto dealers out there in California. The sales people probably figure if a house can double its value in a few years, why can't a Solstice add a third in a few months.
As it happens, I understand the two Pontiac dealers near where I live in Chicago are charging MSRP the same as your dealer out East.
My problem here is that it appears the Solstices are spoken for at least until sometime next spring. I can put my name on a list in case someone drops out. But the dealer closest to me already has about 6 people waiting per allotment.
I am going to take your earlier advice and wait until the Sky is available, test them both and probably put my deposit down in April or May '06.