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Muckyduck, I don't think you'll ever find a comparison thread with a clear "winner". We do this for kicks.
Actually, that CR-V curve isn't that flat....between 5000 and 6500 RPM torque drops comparitively steeply, but your HP peak is at 6000 RPM.
So it's not as bad as it could be, but we all know Honda doesn't make truck engines anyway.
I never really looked at it that way, but you make a good point. Personally I'd say the CR-V is more of a mini minivan. It's rear seats fold like a minivan's, it has that opening between the front seats like a minivan, and so on and so forth. The Escape is definately a little more rugged than the CR-V, sort of like a mini Explorer, but not quite as capable. Since they don't make a truck that is smaller than the Ranger, the Escape was built off of a car platform. That was the only way to go anyway if they were going to compete with the likes of the RAV4 and CR-V.
I still think they are both trucks though.
I agree Baggs about maybe a lack of power in the old model CRV as I have one and it can get a little laboured up hills but I don't need a ton of power and I love my vehicle so I think that is what counts. However, I do not agree with you about the new model as I have tried it and up hills it had ample power and was quieter than the Escape.
As for your reasoning concerning rent a cars well I also disagree! At 3000km's an engine should not have these problems. When a company tests new cars they wind the heck out of them so that is bull in my book. Also, some companies DO rent Hondas and I have usually rented them for work and drive the dazies out of them and in 15 years have had no problems so I don't agree especially in todays modern engines. First of all, my problems were computer, overheating and fuel related so the engine itself (inners) was not a direct issue. I also own a Civic Si that I drive very very hard and have never, ever had anything go wrong!
scape2, pushing the CRV engine very hard is part of the way Honda engines work. You like low RPM stuff, we like the high winding power like a racing engine. The CRV does NOT need to be winded like you say because of the lower (finally!) tourque curve. Try an S2000 and you will think you are driving a Formula 1 car. Amazing! BUT not for all.
As for Muckducks comment about the Ford dealer saying the Escape has alot of problems, I agree as there are over 1500 comments on a link in this Forum about it but that still does not make it a bad car as I believe the domestics have the best right now (Escape/Tribute) compared to anything imported as sales will tell you that. STILL, far from the best however but the best is defined by our own personal needs and not facts and figures.
I will say to scape2 - if you really want to show others how great the Escape is, don't make statements like thousands upon thousands of satisfied owners posting on the web.
Yes, it can tow more. It's still the wrong vehicle for it.
-Escape has more standard payload, more max payload, more max GVWR.
Could this be a direct function of the fact that it's set up for towing 3500 lbs? You made the same arguement twice essentialy.
-Better acceleration, passing, merging with the additional torque and HP available.
0-60 times say you're wrong on acceleration. At best, the 2 are even.
-Back to the topic every Honda CRV owners hates..
the V6 vs the 4cyl..
Well, I own a Honda and I don't hate the arguement. I think it's a dumb arguement. Did you know an 8 cylinder vehicle can outperform a 6 cylinder too? For the last time, NOBODY thinks the 4 is more powerful. We KNOW that we can accomplish what we need to with a 4 and while not beating the 6, we can give it a run for it's money.
-The Duratec 3.0 reaches its max 201HP at 5900rpms,
the 2.4 in the cRv reaches its max 160HP at 6000rpms. The 3.0 reaches its max 200ftlbs of torque at 4,700rpms, the 2.4 reaches its max 161ft/lbs of torque at 3,600rpms. While the CRV is done at 3,600 pushing the vehicle, the Escape has another 1,000rpms and 40ft/lbs of torque to go..
Didn't Varmint post that regarding the much flatter torque band on the CR-V providing maximum torque over a much larger band or RPM's?
-What they don't tell you is you have to push the 2.4 extremly hard in order to come "close" to the V6 Escape numbers.
This is the most ridiculous arguement I think you have made. Here's a clue: In 0 to 60 times they don't 'ease' on the Escape's accelerator either. To get maximum HP out of the Escape you have to push it hard too. That's why it's the MAXIMUM.
-Needs and wants are is an important point. I needed towing ability, I needed the ability to carry 4 adults, and gear up and over hills and not get run off the road, be able to merge with confidence. As much as you want to downplay the V6.. its a huge advantage over the CRV.. live with it..
I'll give you the wants portion, but as far as the rest goes I can do all that in my 'V'. I think you have to take driving style into account when looking at those things. I don't pass unless it's safe to pass. When I merge I yield to traffic like you're supposed to. You're right, fully loaded and towing I can't pass up a hill in heavy traffic. BUT I SHOULDN'T BE PASSING IN THOSE CONDITIONS ANYHOW.
And for reference, the V6 has an advantage over the 4Cyl, not the entire CR-V.
It all depends on what you call a hill.
A lot of the posts on the Tribute/Escape Problems thread are not even about problems. In fact, a lot of them aren't even from Tribute/Escape owners, so the number of posts does not give you the real picture. muckyduck's salesman must either be really stupid, or really honest to not recommend the vehicle that would yield the higher commission.
Hondas at a rental joint must be a Canadian thing because I know I've never seen one around here before. You still don't know the history of that particular vehicle. Someone could have peed in the gas tank for all you know.
muckyduck,
The domestic manufacturers do match foreign workmanship from time to time, just not as consistently as they should. As for customer service, really bad Honda dealers do exist too. Let's face it, neither one can compare to the great one's like Lexus.
Overall, I would pick Honda over Ford - the track record of both companies shows which one is better.
muckyduck - a black swan
(and the name of a pub I frequent)
While the CRv has reached 160ft/lbs of torque at 3,600rpms, the Escape at 3,600rpms is at about 160ft/lbs of torque already, and has more to give.. This downplaying of the V6 advantage by Honda CRV owners is just plain ignorant. I notice once againn hondaman.. You say the 4cyl comes close in acceleration.. yet you fail to mention the 5spd version of CRV. I never said the Escape was perfect. The interior needs some upgrading along with the road noise could be toned down a bit. The road noise however is no worse than in a CRV in my opinion. I would also like to see an inside gas release and auto locking/unlocking when the key is inserted and released..
You forget folks, I OWN a Honda product.. Its been back to the dealer 3x over its 2 year period.. I am going on 1 year now with my Ford product.. Not one time in the shop.. I also chuckle at the way Honda owners wanted to sweep the TSB hiding under the carpet in a quick fashion... Well, I have raised eyebrows in other chat rooms around the net.. I love this internet stuff! Free to let information flow...
I am having fun here by the way..
No, the domestics do not match very well in workmanship as the Tribute I had rattled everywhere. I don't think that this had anything to do with abuse from other rentees!
The problem with domestics is that once they get all the bugs fixed from a product they go and change everything. Honda had the CRV that was considered to be the most reliable SUV and barely changed it cause it worked fine. They added more power, made it bigger blah blah BUT in general they kept what worked fine before........that is the difference from domestics.....they finally get it right than go and change everything and have to start all over again! Rediculous.
Curious scape, never knew you had a Honda and was wondering what problems you have!!?
That said, the CR-V's curve is worth a minor footnote. 90% of peak torque is delivered between 2250 and 5500 rpms. The typical driving range for the engine is between 1800 and 4000 rpms. So that torque is on tap pretty much any time you put your foot down.
If you take a look at the torque curve for any production vehicle, it drops sharply at the end of the rpm band. That's one reason why engines have redlines. There's no point in going any further because the rate of decay is greater than the rise in rpms can compensate for.
I'm still waiting for someone to provide a curve for the Escape. Given that it reaches it's peak so late in the game (much like the old CR-V), I'm guessing that it peaks... then drops like a stone. If it didn't, the engine would be making more hp at higher rpms.
I really wanted to try the Tribute and was let down massively that's all! I was expecting more. I am only using what I know for this discussion and it is not good! I have to admit, my second choice would be the Santa Fe from Hyundai. they have a better quality than the Ford in my opinion. Acceleration is slow but good vehicle in general.
We all agree that the Escape has a lot of power on tap, and that, in auto 4WD mode, all power is sent to the front wheels until slippage is detected.
When you floor the gas pedal from a stop, the power going to the front wheels is most likely going to make them slip therefore engaging the 4WD mode.
Sending power to all four wheels will decrease acceleration due to the increase in drive line friction.
When conducting a 0-60 test you usually floor the gas pedal because you want to go as fast as possible.
Given this information, I can come to the conclusion that the Escape might actually be hurting its own 0-60 time by having so much power. Depending on what you read, the Escape's 0-60 times can vary by .5 seconds or more, and that can be attributed to several factors like different tires, road surface, driver ability, etc.. Some combinations of these factors will handle the power output better than others. CR-V 0-60 times don't seem to vary as much which gives me the impression that it does not suffer from the same physics.
Now the CR-V could be doing the same thing which would render all of this moot too. Is anyone willing to test these two with racing slicks? I think that would give us a better answer.
2002 CRV
For guys who only care about power...
2001 Escape with the CRV in a close second
The CR-V's AWD is a reactive system just like the Escape, so there is potential for the CR-V to suffer from what you describe. However, they are different designs (clutch packs vs rotary blades), so efficiencies could be a player in the final results.
This is worth investigating if you can flesh out your first description.
THe question is, will the chassis handle added capacity to take advantage of the V6? THough someone posted about it before, towing and load capacity are NOT actually related directly...it's quite indirect. Towing capacity is dictated by the strength of the rear chassis along with how much torque the engine produces. But cargo capacity actually has nothing to do with the engine...it only has to do with how much the car's chassis will hold before bottoming the suspension and putting to much weight on the tires, causing them to heat up.
So one could say the Escape can carry more stuff MORE EASILY, but more stuff in general might be untrue.
Oh, and the Pilot is simply to expensive to compare to the Escape...I think it's going to base at $25k at least, and you can get a nicely equipped Escape for less than that.
Oh, and Varmint, the king of flat curves is the VW 1.8T 4 cyl if you ask me...174 pounds of torque between 1950 RPM and 5000 RPM...the turbocharger doesn't even kick in until 2000-2500k, I believe. That torque curve in Honda's 3.5 only exists in the MDX because of a special intake...the Oddessy doesn't get as much torque down low, but it has the same engine. Of course, they could always change that too...maybe they will, who knows?
The fact is, to an American owner, a V6 is a desirable thing, because we're gas hogs, hate going slow, have cheaper gas and don't give a damn for the environment.
The Korean's V-6 is small and seriously underpowered when mated to something as heavy as an AWD Santa Fe.
The Forester's 4-cylinder produces more steam than the Vitara's V-6 (except for the XL-7).
Just sticking any V-6 engine into a small SUV in an attempt to cater to American tastes is easier said than done. So far, only Ford has managed to succeed with a V-6 that's potent enough. Otherwise, the drawbacks (low mileage, emissions, extra weight) outweigh the advantages.
Actually, the Korean V6 ain't bad...it's better than the Liberty's V6. THe Suzuki/GM one in the Tracker/Vitara are a sight better than the 4s, even if they aren't the best in the world (also remember...they're actual TRUCK chassis...much heavier).
Nissan's sucked in the Frontier too, but at least they tried...even supercharged it, though they forgot the intercooler. But because the XTerra is also a truck chassis, they can't just throw in a 4 or 6 out of an Altima and get the same performance...you actually need a truck engine, with higher torque output. But the CR_V is technically a CAR....they could just toss a car's V6 in and get a good performance increase. Same with Toyota and the RAV4. Or Honda and Toyota could turbocharge their 4 cyl engines.
The thing is, though most people don't NEED the extra horses and smoothness provided by a V6, a lot of Americans WANT it. THe AMerican market isn't like the rest of the world.
I know a lot of people *coughhackVARMINTcoughhack* talk about Honda reliability, but reliability doesn't sell a car...never has. It's nice to feel good about the car you bought, but you buy a car because of it's features. If the car does what you want it to, you're going to buy it. That's the way it is. Fords may SUCK for reliability, but people still buy Escapes and Focuses (Foci?). They buy them because they do the job they want them to do. And because they like the interior better.
The thing about Escape versus CR-V is, a peron looking at a CR-V primarily will also find that an Escape fits many of their needs (ezcept fuel economy, and the ride height is heigher). Those needs include large cargo area, and AWD. However, the Escape's attributes..the ones that make people look at an Escape first, such as towing capacity, and horsepower, are not something that a CR-V can effectively compete with.
That's what I'm talking about here. People can talk about the Honda's reliability and everything, but if it doesn't meet the needs of a person, they aren't going to switch from the Escape. In your case, there seems to be an exception, but my guess is you looked at the CR-V first, right?
Reliability plays just as big (perhaps even bigger) a role in sales as a car's features. Otherwise, I don't think the Japanese would've ever managed to take away so much of the car market from the domestics.
Reliability doesn't sell a car, because people are only concerned with what it does, not how long it lasts. Is that right, too?
So answer me this... Why did the CR-V outsell the Escape for four months in a row? Why is the CR-V selling at MSRP, while the Escape needs incentives? Why is Ford adding a better 4 cyl to the Escape if the V6 is supposed to do the job all by itself?
And reliability doesn't help sell a car if the car won't do the job that the person needs done. A Civic won't haul lumber....actually, a CR-V won't do a great job of it either. Reliability is a nice extra, but the primary concern is will the car do the job? Honda's CR-V doesn't directly compete with the Escape, and that's just a simple fact...the Escape more directly competes with the upcoming Pilot. But the Escape is much cheaper than the Pilot....the Escape is just too much truck and not enough car to be near the CR-V competition-wise.
Why did the CR-V sell more than the Escape? Well, because cars usually sell more than trucks, that's why. Truck buyers also tend to be more loyal to their brand than car buyers, so Ford knows what it's doing targeting that market.
And Ford's making a better 4 cyl because they have to....when your highest output 4 cyl is a 2 liter 130 HP Zetec, and everyone else is making stronger 4 cyl engines (Even HYUNDAI!) then you have to bring yourself up to compete. How much do you want to bet their new 4 cylinder ends up in the Focus and Ranger as well? It's not like they're making it JUST for the Escape you know. It might even end up replacing the Zetec in their entire lineup.
Toyota introduces the RAV4 into a market previously owned by the Sidekick. Toyota's economical little four banger attracts the attention of the US and starts the market buzzing.
Honda introduces the CR-V. Despite Toyota's established presence in the market, Honda tops the RAV4s sales in the first month. The RAV4 has never bested the CR-V in sales since.
Subaru sees an opening and introduces the more powerful Forester. The power is generally considered a good thing, but not enough to oust the CR-V. The Forester never sells more than half the number of units that the CR-V manages. This despite the fact that the CR-V is in high demand for several years and consistently selling at near MSRP prices, while the content-laden Soob is at invoice.
Suzuki tried to reclaim their devastated market share by adding a V6 to the mix. Introducing the Grand Vitara. "The what?" Yeah, I haven't seen any since then either.
At about the same time, Nissan trumps everybody by building a mid-size truck on a short frame and pricing it within reach of the other so-called "mini-utes". The XTerra wins several awards, but never sells many more units that the Forester or RAV4. Later life, Nissan adds a supercharger and people still don't care.
It wasn't until the CR-V was in the last years of it's life that a vehicle finally overtook it in the sales arena. Mazda designs an SUV, which incorporates almost all of the goodness that the CR-V has brought to the market, AND manages to get a decent V6 under the hood. The Escape and Tribute make a big splash in the market.
The Escape sells at the top of the heap until a new American challenger, the Liberty, takes the sales crown.
While both are still relatively new models, the aged CR-V gets re designed. In it's first full month of sales, it retakes the sales crown. It outsells every V6 small SUV on the market. That list now includes the Escape/Tribute, Liberty, XTerra, VUE, GV/Tracker, and Santa Fe. Things go this way for four months until incentives are introduced on the Escape and the CR-V is still going at, or even above, MSRP.
You wanna tell me again how people don't want to buy a reliable four cylinder vehicle...
Let's see...RAV4 comes out, sells at #1...CR-V comes out and makes #1. XTerra comes out and makes #1 in sales (yes, you did ssay that). Subaru and Suzuki are small brands and will never make #1 in sales. Escape/Tribute come out and make #1 in sales. Liberty comes out and takes #1 in sales crown. CR-V gets redesigned and makes #1 in sales (That happened to the RAV4 as well, I believe). The only question here is whether Mitsubishi is a big enough brand for the Outlander to be #1 in sales in August/September when it comes out.
People who buy cars are VERY fickle...the next "new thing" will steal sales from the CR-V...whether it's the Pilot, the Outlander, or whatever.
Now, I'm not saying the CR-V is a bad car...it's a fairly good car. But It's not what I'm looking for or need. Honda doesn't actually make ANY car that I would buy, though the Pilot might come close. I think the newer CR-V still needs a bit more horsepower/torque, since the one I test drove struggled on a 30 degree incline, and that was with just me in it. But I'm sure it's just fine for some people, even though I'd choose the Escape for myself.
that is fine, I was wandering what is the red line in
both the cr-v. and the escape. someone mentioed that the cr-v is a mini van like, but if you people think mini vans are one if not
the most practical vehicle(thinking with the non so macho side of the brain)so i guess cr-v rules.
greetings from the sunny florida keys.
The doubling of driveline friction is what I believe could be the cause.
npaladin,
Thank you! I was beginning to think I was the only one who drove a CR-V up a real hill. The hills I drove up approached 70 degrees of incline with three people in the vehicle. Yes it made it up, but not comfortably enough for me.
Also, I tried to get the "new thing" idea across before, only I don't think I chose my words wisely. I was going at how each new design is going to try and better the leader of the time. The Escape did that a couple of years ago, and hence led in sales for a while. The CR-V was redesigned and "one-upped" the Escape which gave it the sales crown. This same cycle has been going on for years and years in all of the different model segments. My point is, when you break down all of the features like we have been doing here, the newer design is almost always going to be a little more appealing than the older design until they both release newer designs at the same time and have no idea what the "other guy" is going to do.
I liked the Tribute but could not trust Ford (not just from what the salesman told me but from past experieces with Ford).
With the advent of hybrids, the V6/8's should be on their last wheels.
I think why people chose one car over the other is 50% of appearance. I couldn't pass the look of Santa Fe, even when I test drove it and it was all around the same and even better then others. If you like the way one car looks you will always look for advantages and be less skeptical. The same thing was for RAV 4 and Forester. One is small girlish car (no offence:-) another is just a station wagon regardless what others will say. BTW the reputation and reliability is a big thing for me and Honda has them both. I work for financial company and there is a term called Good Will that is intangible asset but cost a lot ( would you go to Andersen Accounting firm to do your auditing?) People in this country know that Honda has better reliability than Ford - it might not be proven on paper but that's the opinion of General Public in this country. To earn that Honda went the long way . For example Hyundai still suffer from their Excels in the 80's even now their cars consider very reliable. So don't down play reputation and reliability.
Anyway, chose the car YOU like and justify your purchase for yourself not for others.
Given that all of those new models were more powerful, or even had a V6, suggests that power is not the most important thing on the buyer's minds. The alternative is that the CR-V does, in fact, have enough power.
As for total sales, I agree that some manufacturers are smaller and have a smaller sales pressence here in the US. Honda does have a retail advantage over some of the smaller brands. However, the reverse is true when compared to Ford. Honda has fewer retail outlets than Ford, so you would expect them to sell fewer units. The fact that the CR-V was able to surpass the Escape, despite that disadvantage, tells us that the vehicle is selling based on its merits.
OMHO, it's more likely that the auto transmission in the Escape is less efficient than either of the trannies in the Honda. We discussed that way back at the beginning of this thread. Again, it cannot be proven (unless we get dyno tests for both vehicles).
I'm not saying that this is the only reason why the Escape doesn't sell more, but it has to be a small factor.
I have asked people to visit other chat rooms to see the thousands upon thousands of satisfied Escape/Tribute owners.. and I get bashed? saying this makes my integrity level lower?
Varmit, I am trying to find your HP/Torque curve for the Escape V6. This makes no sense however when you look at the 40ft/lbs advantage the Escape has over the CRV, along with the peak torque/HP of both these vehicles.. Honda owners can keep justifying the 4cyl as "good enough". I guess there are those who want better. The V6 has advantages over the 4cyl in the CRV.. Its plastered all over the net in hundreds of reviews. If you want I can link you to them? But if I start to fill the screens with links to Great Escape/Trib reviews, I know once again.. I'll get bashed for being a satisfied Ford Escape owner...
dglozman visit www.alldata.com and try to pull up TSB information on HOnda.. Like you said opinion.
in the shop for factory installed alarm not working everytime..
For rightside driver powerwindow not working everytime..
Last but not least rattles fromt the dash area..
All were fixed but this is supposed to be a Honda!
I assume you mean thousands upon thousands different posters, not thousands upon thousands posts.
Honda doesn't have anything else to offer in place of the CR-V. Don't even say the Passport either, that thing was a big mistake for them.
varmint,
I realize that increased drive line friction would affect both if they both spin the wheels during a full throttle launch. What I was proposing is that the CR-V may not tend to spin its wheels as much, thus creating a more efficient launch.
You're right, the Escape drive line is probably less efficient, as Ford tends to do that. The Control Trac system in the Escape (actually in all of Ford's SUV's) has arguably been one of the better 4WD drive systems for years though. Even if it is not the most efficient, which like you said, is hard to prove without real tests.
scape2,
One of the problems with our Civic was a broken driver side window track which completely halted the window midway up/down. It happened right after the warranty gave out, and cost us about $400 to fix. My brother-in-law's 2001 CR-V had a similar problem arise a few weeks after they brought it home, and I think I've seen a few more of these on the CR-V board. Has this been a big problem with their cars over the years?
Don't see what that has to do with the crv outselling the escape when neither one was on the lots. People would be buying a small suv for a reason - money, size, ride to name just a few - and decided they did not want a larger suv. So they would be forced to buy something they didn't want?? I don't think so. I certainly would not.
As far as rebates on the Escape... 500 dollars doesn't amount to much along with no special financing.. not much of an incentive.. yet the Escape is still selling quite well..
altoo, did you visit www.alldata.com?
I cannot link you to certain chat rooms around the net, Steve spanks awfully hard... You will have to search and find them for yourself..
As far as resale.. I notice noone answered my question.. even Edmunds about my findings of there true cost to own numbers in the resale column. They have a 2001 Escape going for 17K.. yet when you do a TMV it is over 21K...
altoon what did you pay for your CRV?
And will sell as many as Honda can make. Just like the crv.
Chat rooms? I assume you mean dedicated sites to Ford and/or Escape, not like Edmunds where there are many topics??