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That ignition recall is for the 1st gen CR-V.
Also, the CR-V was introduced in Japan back in 1996. It stayed there until 1997 before it was brought over to the states and other markets. We really don't know how it fared in its first year.
You know, if I were going to research buying a car and read all of this negativity, I would seriously think twice about buying that vehicle.....why not you?"
For several reasons:
a. Boards like this and internet sites only make up a very tiny percentage of folks. I do look at the nature and frequency of problems being reported, but I also weigh the source of the information accordingly. (There is also negativity by CRV owners in this site, and I weigh that the same way, because I also know that the vast majority of CRV owners are very happy with their vehicles.)
b. My previous experience with Ford and my local Ford dealerships have always been extremely positive. I personally have owned, and my family have owned literally dozens of Ford vehicles of various makes and models since our first 83' Escort. Almost every one has lasted well over 120k miles or was traded with very good resale value (my brother seems to get tired of vehicles after 3 years or so, whereas my father and I run them until they have well over 100K before we even start to look at replacing it.. Same brother also wrecked one..
c. Comfortable with the local dealership, and prefered the internal layout of the Escape, it drove and felt completely different from the 01 CRV, at a price over 1K less than the 01 CRV for similar options..
So, if 2 vehicles have similar options, price points, performance, and feel, today I lean towards Ford because of my personal previous experience.. For my next purchase, if another manufacturer has a vehicle that I'm interested in that has features, feel, price that Ford has no match, or if I suddenly start having problems with any my Ford vehicles, then I would shy away from Ford in the future.
For example, my father is looking to replace his Ford Escort (currently has over 200k miles on it), and is disappointed that Ford no longer offers a 4door Escort sedan. He doesn't like the look or feel of the Focus at all (which I agree with). I've recommended that he look into the Civic and Protoge..
I too am speaking from family/friends experience with Ford products. Never had any huge problems with Ford products that the Honda/Toyota owners love to beat the drum to. Ford has 4 out of the 10 best sellers.. not bad for a company who is supposed to have terrible quality. Many of these top sellers have been in the top 10 for many years. How do they stay there if the quality is so terrrible? The Explorer/Expedition/Focus/Escape/RAnger/F-Series and even the Taurus sells quite well.
I expected more from my wifes Honda.. With all the praying to the Honda god some people do.. I expected perfection.. Instead I have had some problems.. I will not follow blindly. If some would visit other chat rooms and search the net for data they too would see Honda is not perfect. Anyone who has had a stats class also will see Honda produces maybe 1/3 of the vehicles Ford does. Honda is a small company when compared to Toyota/Ford/GM/Daimler or BMW. I predict Honda will be bought in the next 5-10 years. They just don't have the cash flow/capitol that the others have.
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
You're right varmint, I didn't think that one through all the way before I typed it. It sounded good at the time though.
They're releasing fuel-cell vehicles in the US next year! (I think 5 or 6 of them total..lol) If the Escape Hybrid would have been out THIS year I would have looked much more closely at the Escape, but my old Blazer was bigger and got about the same mileage as the current V6 Escape so it really wasn't a good option for me. I'm your typical 95% on the highway, 3% on backroads, 2% offroad person.
The only automotive companies larger than Honda are: GM, Ford, DiamlerChrysler, Toyota, and Volkswagen. Are you claiming that all the other automotive companies not listed will be out of business in 5 years?
If you have time please check where Mr. Soichiro Honda started. Before he established Honda Motors in 1948 he is one of the suppliers of Toyota Motors in Japan (Piston). By 1990 Honda was the third largest automaker in Japan.
Yeah, maybe they will be gone in 5 to ten years.
heheheheheh
have fun guys...
Its just a matter of time.
"While I'm sure nothing would make you happier"??? You forget I own a Honda..I am just not a Honda clone, and follow blindly..
Bess, Renault/Nissan is larger than Honda..
You're right about the US...we got Ford and GM and that's it. Europe's got the most with VW, Renault-Nissan, BMW, and Daimler. But your Korean needs work...Hyundai is doing great and owns itself. It also owns Kia...GM doesn't. GM is trying to buy Daewoo, so they have a brand on each cotinent.
You call other people blind for touting their preference of the CR-V, yet you have spent 90% of this thread talking about how great your Escape is. Part of being an Owner is being at least part fanatic. I could almost swallow your Honda clone comment if you at least restricted it to fanatical first time buyers of the current model year. For most others this isn't their first Honda so the reliability they speak of comes from first hand knowledge and not a general PR buzz. Would you consider yourself a Ford clone? No, you wouldn't. You would consider yourself a happy owner.
Three words...powered by Honda! Won more races than any company in the past 25 years! I am sure this reflects to their street cars!
Scape2: Honda makes better and often cheaper cars then the American counterpart when you look at things like Total Cost to Own. They sell well and they often cannot keep supply up with the demand. Something tells me they are doing a lot better then the recently almost bankrupt Ford Motor comapany!!!
Fun's fun but this ain't the WWF..... You guys want to lighten up a bit?
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
RAV4 best in class for initial quality, per JD Power? How 'bout that?
scape2: My RAV doesn't buzz.
As someone who doesn't tow, or drive up and over the Cascades, I find the RAV does real well, and delivers very good fuel mileage.
I think you may be right about Honda being bought in the next 5-10 years, though. Only the largest companies are going to survive, if the current trend continues. That would sure cut down on the number of threads on sites like this. There will just be 2 or 3 car companies to "debate" about.
Good luck to all of us.
Honda started very small and has succeeded right along, growing and expanding. I think Honda will be around for a long, long time, and it may be doing the buying, instead of being bought.
Wow! I sure peeved off the HOnda fanatics in this room....
Ford isn't going anywhere.. you forget so fast the millions upon millions Ford made in the late 80s and through the 90's.
Dave the TCO has already been debated in this room.. Doesn't add up..
I still like the Accord my wife has.. she does also. In fact I used the Maguires 3 step wax on it yesterday and it looks great!.. In my opinion Hondas just have no character or soul to them..
Whao! a RAV4 owner visited this room.. funny how a 4cyl Japanese engine cannot be buzzy, yet a 4cyl American engine can. Sorry, but
to me the RAV4 gets buzzy when pushed and at speeds above 60..
Isuzu and Subaru are no longer soley Japanese owned.. GM owns 20% of Isuzu and a couple of seats on the board.. I bleive they own 27% of Subaru and a few seats on thier board also..
You like it even though you profess it's more problematic than your Escape, has no character, and has no soul. I'm starting to see why your happy with your Escape too I guess. OK, that was a cheap shot, I admitt, but I'm just finding it hard to swallow your claims of non-bias based on the fact that you own an Accord.
That aside, tell me more about your opinions on Maguires. I was silly enough to pay for the "clearcoat protectant" on my V and whoever put it on swirled the whole car. Joe average doesn't see it, but when I look close you can see the whole car is swirled.
As to Ford-bashing: where's the sport in that? All you need to do is stand out of the way and watch. Ford seems to be bashing itself pretty effectively right now. Auto news reports Ford is "de-contenting" their cars to make them cheaper: it seems they were too nice for an undeserving American public. Ford can now go GMC one better. GMC says their trucks are better than they need to be. Ford can say their vehicles were better than they needed to be and they're going to fix it by ripping a few of those goodies right out-a there.
Last I checked, Honda was ranked the 7th largest car manufacturer active in the US market. However, there are huge gaps between 4th and 7th places on that scale.
It's not easy to stay independent when the big guys can share resources and technology within their respective corporate structure. Honda does not share this advantage. Last year, the press got a hold of Honda's response to pressures about merging with one of the other companies. Honda plans to sell their engines as an alternative source of income. That's the reason why new Honda engines turn clock-wise. This allows them to bolt onto other the transmissions used by other companies. GM is already buying Honda engines and testing them out. Saturn is rumored to be developing a larger-than-the-VUE cross-over using a Honda V6.
This stategy gives Honda a way to trade technology and make extra money without resorting to a merger. Time will tell if it works or not.
daveggh: We discussed the TCO numbers as documented by several sources. The various numbers on TCO fell into 3 categories:
a.the method to drive a particular TCO was not well defined, so you cant tell what is being considered or costed out.
b. Did not add up, even given the particular site's purchase costs.
c. were very inconsistant from website to website.
Also, recently Honda folks here are claimed that the demand for Honda vehicles allows them to be sold at MSRP or above, and they indicate that the Escape sales are weak so Ford is offering discounts. (thus widening the initial purchase price gap even more).
So who do we belive? The Honda folks who say the above? or the Honda folks who claim the CRV price is the same or lower than the Escape?
On a lighter note:
Leaving Star Wars Episode 2 in the theater, I hear a kid ask his brother, "so are the clones good guys or bad guys"
I don't think any of the Big2.5 can make room for a Honda division, and getting rid of this pesky little company that manages to sell lots of cars would immediately eliminate a significant competitor. Thus, Honda would essentially be out of business if they were to be bought out.
First, they use the Honda name to get a stronger foothold in the Asian market. That keeps the company intact for a while. Then they force Honda to do the things it does best. Back to making small cars and engines. GM makes a killing selling cars with the Honda nameplate. Later on, when Honda starts to show any ill affects from the merger, GM might merge Honda products with the Saturn line. Pretty soon Honda engine tech is found under the hood of most small GM cars. The product recognition goes away, but the company is still working.
scape, here's one of the articles:
http://detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0205/15/a01-490121.htm
I have noticed that some little things like ash trays, side cladding, floor mats, etc., are usually options on Honda vehicles. Maybe that's the way it should be, and maybe not. I know we have two pull out cup holders in the back seat of our Escape. Can you get something like that in the CR-V? I know I could live without them.
More than cosmetics. Suspensions, etc. And some bone-headed moves, like taking real wood trim out of a Lincoln and putting in plastic.
Baggs is correct, though. Most every manufacturer is starting an aggressive decontenting plan. The market is beginning to demand items that were once reserved for luxury cars in the bottom trim lines. There are people who think that fog lights should be standard! In order to meet those demands, the manufacturers have to cut costs somewhere.
They are not as generous as you seem to think.
Honda could go back to double wishbone suspension, but only if they find away around the problems with that design.
With struts, they were able to make the engine compartment smaller and the passenger compartment bigger. The new Civic is a compact car, while earlier models were all subcompacts.
Struts also allowed them to create better crush zones. The Civic was an IIHS best pick and ranked as one of the top 5 safest cars on the market (this despite being lighter than every other vehilce on that list).
And while the basic Civic no longer handles like the old models, the performance crowd still has the Si and RSX. Both are based on the same design and both handle better than the cars they replaced. After all, BMW uses struts. Double bones are not the only way to get good handling. So even performance isn't a real issue.
For the most part, the folks who are upset are the ones who raced these cars. On a racetrack, there is a difference, but we're talking about heavily modified cars, now. They are no longer Hondas. These folks are miffed because A) it's a break in tradition,
I'm sure if Ford stuck a 500 hp low torque high revving 4 cylinder engine under the hood of the mustang, the fans would riot. It wouldn't matter if the car was faster, cleaner, and better in every way. It just isn't in the Stang tradition. To a lesser extent, that's why the new Civic has Honda fanatics upset.
I'm well aware of those reasons too (I read the car mags religiously too), but they could have pleased everyone by finding a way to keep the double wishbone setup. They designed it for the majority of owners, but those same owners, like "Jennifer", could care less what kind of suspension was up there and probably don't even know that it was changed. So why wouldn't they put a little more effort into pleasing the "racers" too?
The bottom line was money, and it always is in big business. You're right in saying that they probably didn't upset a lot of people by switching the setup, but they could have done better.
Other items like the nonstandard roof rack, smaller wheel/tire combos, and nonstandard CD changers on the CR-V could fall into this category too. If you want them, you have to ask the dealer to install them, usually for a pretty steep cost too. We can spin these until they're dizzy, but the fact is, all companies are guilty of cost cutting to increase profits. "Jennifer" is not and never will be their main concern.
Honda is guilty of cost cutting in many areas. I just disagree on the issue of suspension. There were many other important reasons for the change. I'm also not sure that I agree on the notion of a standard roof rack, CD changer (which is standard on EX models), or wheels size. There are perfectly good reasons for those choices. Just because you don't like the way something is optioned, doesn't mean it's the result of cost-cutting. If that were true, then I might say that Ford was cost-cutting by not offering a five speed with the V6 Escape.
Areas where Honda does get skimpy, would be leather, wood, and tires (type not size). A perfect example would be the TL, which has poorly designed fixed rear headrests. Some of these "cuts" are more understandable than others, but it's pretty clear that cost is the primary motivation behind them.
Therefore the comment from goldencouple does not "stand up in court" because all companies cost cut at the expense of the consumer. You read about Ford's plans because they are a very popular company with the media right now. I mean it's almost to the point where if a mechanical door on one of their buildings broke, and the media saw someone have to push it open you'd see this headline tomorrow: "FORD MOTOR COMPANY TURNS OFF POWER TO CUT OPERATING COSTS: WHAT'S NEXT?"
varmint,
Let's face it, the Civic is not exactly the cheapest car on the market. I don't think it was worth the premium when my wife bought ours. So when I see things like the suspension change, I have to question their methods. The extra space and better crush zones could still exist with the double wishbones, and the extra weight would be offset by the larger engine's performance boost. I'm not saying that they were wrong in making the change. I just think that since the price of the car did go up somewhat, they could have at least justified that hike by improving upon everything. Taking things away doesn't do that for me.
Just a note on a related subject. Just because something isn't standard doesn't mean it represents cost-cutting. (We're getting into semantics territory now.) That's just a different sales model.
Back to off-topic land...
"The extra space and better crush zones could still exist with the double wishbones"
No, the 2bones design took up too much space. Having both the bones and the space would've required making the vehicle larger. Do that and the Civic is now an Accord.
"the extra weight would be offset by the larger engine's performance boost."
So you get a better engine, but the extra weight means no performance gain. Where's the benefit? You've got a brand new car with a more powerful engine, but it doesn't go any faster than the old one. I don't think that would fly.
"I just think that since the price of the car did go up somewhat, they could have at least justified that hike by improving upon everything."
Well, let's see... The benefits for the new Civic are better safety, more passenger space, and better acceleration (just to name a few). 99% of the market is going to appreciate those gains. On the downside, the new car won't handle on a track like the old one. This will matter to a whopping 1% of the buyers.
Yes they still do have to offer value or they are "dead meat". It's the items that they consider to be "extra value" which are probably being deleted. So "Jennifer" is still being satisfied to an extent, but she'll have to settle for what they are going to offer at the time. I think we need to see what, if anything, will be deleted from the Escape. My guess would be not much, or else they risk losing people to other competitive models. They are all just too hot right now.
One thing I've noticed with Ford, and I don't know about all the others, is that over time their vehicles tend to become more feature rich while the prices go down or stay the same. For example, I bought a ZX2 in April of 97 that had all the options minus the moonroof and sport (read appearance) package. A couple of years later they were offering most of what I had as standard equip., plus you could order leather, different wheels, and a few others that I can't remember. If you added all of the new options the price came out to be about the same as what I paid for fewer features. I've noticed that they do this with most, if not all, of their vehicles. Maybe this is what they are putting an end to. If so, they can sell the same features year after year while the profits increase due to the lack of new extras. If you don't know what you could have had, you won't miss it as much.
varmint,
The Accord was resized a couple of years ago, so I was thinking they did have some play with the size of the Civic without making it too big.
No increase in performance from the new engine would be a concern for me, but not for "Jennifer". Anyway, they reduced the perfomance by doing away with the suspension. So I guess we do have six in one hand and a half dozen in the other.
I'm not saying that they didn't make some good improvements that people wanted. I just think they should have lowered the price of the vehicle when they chose to use a less expensive setup. To me this seems to be a very good example of cost cutting at work. The other changes may have offset that, but my money is not on that side of the bet.
By the way, I believe a 500hp four banger in a Mustang is one of the signs that marks the end of the world. I think I would resort to riding bicycles for the rest of my life if that ever happened.
Ford did have one, Chevy another - but all else were from across the west or east pond.
YIPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE