Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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tidester
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SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
For me this is all in fun.. I don't "hate" anyone nor anything.. This room is simply a source of entertainment for me!
Tide, please don't wave the magic wand!...:-((
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Enjoy your Escape. My personal opinion is its too small a vehicle to do the things it's rated for. So you can pull a long camper, I have a friend with a full size van that complains he can't get everything he needs to take in that so I doubt the Escape would fit the bill. (neither would a 'V') It does win the 'mines bigger' contest under the hood, but in a flat out drag that hardly helps it.
An interesting note: I read on another board that the 'V' can tow 2600 lbs in Europe. Somebody suggested that this was with electric brakes. If that is true, it would appear the 'V' has the ka-honeys to pull what it has to, but not enough stopping power. This wouldn't surprise me given the lightness of the 'V'.
(This is the part where Varmint hops in to fix up my mis-spoken words and present the real facts on the issue...)
Am I the king of the run-on sentence or what?
I think Europe's rules are looser than in the US...the insurance companies also don't have as much say. We have pretty strict rules for cars here...that's why a lot of models don't make it over here without going through an "Americanization" process that covers emissions, suspension, and various other things besides moving the steering wheel to the right (meaning left. ;D) side of the vehicle. The Escape's got a heavier-duty chassis than the CR-V...supposedly the stiffest of all the car-based SUVs. That's what gives it the ability to tow heavier loads that would yank the rear-end off of a CR-V.
My point that I have is that yes scape I do know only a few people that own either an Escape or Tribute. My secretary owns a Tribute and my best buddy owns an Escape black XLT I believe. To be honest, I found the Escape a better choice and better fit and finish inside. I also like that the cladding had not been clear coated because this will pit during the winter season. My secretary has had quite a few big problems such as a complete exaust change and some engine problems due to the CPU running off line. However, she loves it no matter and that is what counts the most right?
My friend with the Escape, has had something pop during a highway run (a pulley or something like that) and 2 computer resets along with stalling problems. He has always owned Honda previously but supports your argument about towing and realised that the CRV could not handle his needs. He misses Honda and is now probably going to buy the Pilot. He also thinks the Escape is not a bad vehicle but not what he expected and very hard on gas when towing anything or hauling a full load. When he had his pulley repaired, there was one thing that really knocked him for a loop! The mechanic did not have the part in stock and therefore went out in the lot and took it off a new vehicle!! He found that rather rediculous as they will end up selling this car for the same price even though it had been tampered with! Odd...
My experience also ended in disaster as you know. BUT...I found this vehicle very powerful and had good handling. There were a lot of rattles and I found it noisier than my 2001 CRV which surprised me. Also, I am a bodybuilder at 240 pounds and always had the feeling that I was sitting a little to the right and was going to fall over into the passenger seat! The door handles were also cheap and did not work properly and one broke off. BUT once again, if I did not have these problems, I would have been reasonbly satisfied. It is just not the type of car I like as I find the Honda products softer and more subtle and of better quality.
I hope this explains better what I like and have experienced without insulting anyones choice as we all choose something that suits our needs. Let's put it this way, these are the best vehicles in their respective categories...PERIOD!
Npaladin - You are correct. Different markets have different rules regarding towing, however it is still the manufacturer who sets the limits. Honda is notoriously legal-minded with regard to North America. That is not so with Ford (though after the Firestone debacle, that may change). FWIW, the euro CR-V is outfitted with a 2.0, not the 2.4. Whoever posted about the higher tow rating was probably thinking of the Aussie version or the CR-V (which shares the 2.4L engine).
If you have a link, I'd like to see where the Escape's chassis was rated tops for this class. I don't recall ever reading that.
I got the post regarding the towing from CRVIX and as I mentioned I don't have any first hand knowledge of the actual requirements.
That said I'll refrain from posting until I have something factual written in stone.
THe manufacturers set the limits yes, but first thing they do is listen to the insurance companies tell them how much they'll get sued if they rate it at a certain point, and then they listen to the NTSB tell them what conditions need to be met in order to qualify for a certain rating. So no, the manufactuer's word isn't QUITE law in that case....at least not in the USA. THat also means if a car doesn't actually meet the legal qualifications for a towing rating, there's public trouble. Besides, I know a guy who towed a trailer that heavy with his Escape, and it did a good job of it. He USED to have an Explorer.
Fact is I really enjoy my Escape, its been 100 percent reliable, squeak/rattle free, tows my jet skiis, takes me to my fishing spots, hauls the 4 bikes everything I expected. And, if you search the net you will find many, many more Escape/Tribute owners whom are 100 percent satisified.
Kind of funny.. on the way home there were 5 Escapes all around each other.. Doesn't seem all this bashing is doing any good...
"Anyhow.. posting stories in these rooms gets you nowhere.. Anyone can post stories of reliability and breakdowns. Links and reviews and data is the key to proving a point.."
First, I seem to remember that you have posted your fair share of anecdotal evidence as well. Second, while I understand the problem with anecdotal evidence, I find it interesting to hear people's rational for their purchase. I'll bet most purchasers put more weight on their anecdotal experiences than objective data. Not that it actually proves anything - just a thought. Third, I haven't seen much of anything proven on this board with "objective" data (links, reviews, etc..) When someone introduces data from a reviewer or some other third party either a)the source is discredited, b)it is ignored, and/or c)someone finds another source that contradicts the first. My point is that links, reviews, and data don't fare much better than anecdotal evidence - probably because our minds are already made up.
I don't have any evidence that the Escape is no better or worse than the CRV, only what all the reviews say about Honda and my own personal experience. As I ALSO said, I believe these are the best in their respective categories!!
There are many cars that are better than both but that is not relevant for this thread. If we compare, than I believe I made the best choice for the way I live but do not intend to ram it down anyones throat like you want to.
That said, this business about my neighbor vs. you neighbor is rubbish.
Reviews - Reviews are just the opinions of someone who is paid to write. In most cases, these opinions come from writers who have some sort of recognized expertise and credentials.
Once again, you have to find consistent reviews for them to make a difference. For example, I could probably find one review which states that the Escape is under-powered. However, it's pretty clear that the majority hold the opposite opinion. We can consider that one review to be bogus.
Statistics - Stats are useful only if you know exactly what they measure. Just a word of caution, many folks try to read too much into them. For example, the JD Powers initial quality survey only speaks to initial experiences. It only covers the first 90 days of ownership. Therefore, it should not be used as a reference for reliability, which implies long term quality and/or durability.
Discrediting - I'm aware of only one source that has actually been discredited. Bess correctly identified the many gaps in the data Intelli-Choice has on their website. There have been attempts to discredit others, but none have been successful.
Go to this link and have a look. Not trying to start a war but since you said you were going to post links I figured I would do it first.
When you get there, go to "car news" and read about how Ford blames it's suppliers for quality problems....an article from May 28th.
Steve
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SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Quote from the Edmunds review:
"Yes, after much seat time, on-road and off, we still think the Escape and Tribute offer an unbeatable package to the mini-ute buyer (especially now that early recall concerns have been addressed). "
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Of Carpoint.msn.com's 3 professional reviewers, 2 out of the 3 reviewers rated the Escape better than the 2002 CRV..
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www.nctd.com, carbuytip.com, autobuyguide.com, and carbuyingservices.com Rated the 2002 Escape as the best in its class. (It appears they are all using the same review though).
"With the V6 engine, which is standard in the XLT version for 2002 and an option in the XLS, the Ford Escape offers the most power in its category. A four-wheel independent suspension and unitbody construction make it handle almost as well as a car. A car-like ride makes it easy to live with. Overall, we feel the Escape is the best SUV in its class. "
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Consumerguide.com rated the Escape well above average with a 56. The highest score was a 62 which CRV held. Although read the reviews for yourself.. 3 of the 6 points difference was because they liked the instrument cluster better on the CRV, geez..
They gave the same rating accleration, quietness, cargo room, value, and MPG's. Funny, the V6 Escape AWD (auto tranny), got better mileage than the AWD automatic tranny CRV.
They did like the seats better on the CRV too.
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Car and Driver rated the 2001 Escape as the best small SUV. (they didn't have any 2002 reviews), however a notable quote on the 2001:
With rugged and honest styling, decent fuel economy, and plenty of utility, the Ford Escape is the perfect SUV for modern families.
(I guess the 2002 CRV could be perfect too, but that doesn't diminish the Escape)
There are dozens of other shootouts for 2001 where the Escape stood alone in the class, but the significant changes to the 2002 CRV puts it in the same league as it catches up with the Escape.
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Can I find good reviews of the 2002 CRV? I sure can. I'm not sure what your obsession is with finding reviews about the Escape.. I'm sure with a little searching I could probably find more.. But as you can see, the CRV and Escape are clearly the top 2 contenders in the class, both worthy of the praise they receive.
Someone mentioned the only reason why the Escape is selling is because of incentives.. Well, a $500 incentive and NO special financing is hardly an incentive.. Yet in my region Honda is offering 2.9/3.9/4.9 36/48/60 month financing on ALL Hondas!@ Ford offers no special financing for the Escape and 500 bucks doesn't touch the interest rate difference in money saved..
In Motor Trend this month the Honda Civic finished behind the Ford Focus!!
Some in this room try to paint the Escape as a problematic vehicle, yet have no hard proof to back it up. As I keep saying.. get out on the net, visit other rooms/forums.. There are plenty of satisfied Escape/Tribute owners out here..
Hondaman.. like I said.. I love your blind loyalty to Honda....
I was growing tired of all the things being said by scape that Hondas are no better (reliability!!) than Ford. This link has people from Ford saying that they have a problem so I think it is vital to this argument. I do not want to win anything here but reliable vehicles.....Honda is definately a step ahead than Ford......Better vehicles.....that depends on what you want. The Focus beat the new Si because it (Si) is underpowered and less sportive than the Focus. I agree there no problem. I even find it quite ugly to be honest. As far as durability, I would go with the Honda however ONLY because they have once again used a proven platform whereas Ford has gone into new territory with an all aluminum engine special suspension, electronics etc.... We will see how this holds out and if I am right, I think there was a recall for an engine problem already but I am not sure.
All the other arguments you have stated about towing, power etc.... have been better. Reliability however, you won't win.
I know, I talk a lot but this is fun stuff. I don't mean any harm here folks...just debating
1. Japanese autos are said to have a better reliability/quality record than Domestic autos. This is a widely held belief, and therefore is very hard to dispute. Especially since we have no idea what the real ratio of problematic vs. non-problematic (or total number produced) actually is.
2. The Escape is barely two years old, so we really can't comment on its reliability yet. Some may guess, but we really don't know for sure, do we? Most Ford Truck models do turn out to be pretty darn reliable, so we'll wait and see.
3. The CR-V has been around for a few more years, and has (according to most reputable sources) proven to be a good reliable vehicle. Those that like to keep vehicles for 10+ years should stay tuned though.
With all that said, I still can't understand why reliability is such a big issue to some people. You can still buy a lemon Honda, even if the percentages are in your favor. When you are spending that much money, get what you want. I know most people that post around here have done it that way, but as scape says, there are a lot of "blinded" people out there, on both sides.
Reliability is the issue here because that is what we have been talking about for a long time. Scape has made it a very big issue and always talks of his 10000 miles of problem free driving when I had 2 days of terrible experiences. He is right thought that you can buy a lemon Honda but they will not take parts off the cars in the lot to fix them I would think like what happened to my friends Escape.
Anyways I tried the new Pilot last night and was so blown away I am trying to think of a way to trade my 2001 CRV for it! It was a great expereince.
No problems are good to any vehicle Honda or not but this is a high millage problem that is easy to fix compared to the stalling problems and computer malfunctions that Ford face in the future.
Those consumer ratings on msn.com are (start sarcasm) as reliable as a Honda (end sarcasm). I used to read through all of them from time to time, but I stopped when I realized that a lot of the posts went something like this: "Ford is crap!!!! Toyota RULES!!!!!" Obviously those reviewers didn't give the Escape five stars. Back in December, the Escape had an 8+ rating too. I could go to the CR-V page on that site and easily sign up under ten different names to bring the CR-V down if I wanted. But who would want to do that anyway. Take those with a grain of salt. The only real customer surveys that matter are given by the manufacturers themselves. You're never going to see those.
Sorry, consumers do count as they are the ones that buy these expensive toys! I don't buy your "Toyota rules" blah blah theory! I am sure that people have better things to do with there time than go to MSN and FORD bash!
It's a little hard to link specific carpoint consumer reviews because the links are very very long for some reason. You'll have to read them yourself. Here are some good ones:
"If ever want to improve it, read my impartial observations!"
and
"See my comments"
Note that these two are identical except he/she gave the Escape a 1.2 in the latter, and a 1.3 in the former. Obviously not an owner.
"Can't compete with Honda" could be an owner, but my money is on the opposite.
"Piece of crap" is one of my favorites. Clearly another non-owner.
There are more, but I'll let you figure those out on your own.
On the other side:
"Buy the Santa Fe" and "We have grown to hate our Escape" do seem legit. So not all of the low scores are coming from Ford bashers.
I can't link what the numbers were in December because web browsers unfortunately aren't that smart, and it has been long since removed from any cache that I have. Trust me, it was that high back then.
If anyone knows of a good way to post really long URL's, let me know and I'll be glad to post these instead.
Try http://makeashorterlink.com
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
After the warranty is up, how much wil the car cost?
CR-V vs Escape - reliability has to go to CR-V!!
End of debate!!
For now it goes to the CR-V due to the CR-V's past history. As you said "But in the end, the only thing that matters is how the car performs over the time of ownership." The Escape has only been out for two years. Over time it may be as good as, or even better than the CR-V even though it didn't exactly start off so hot. Once more, only time will tell.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?P12F517F
and
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q25F207F
Note that these two are identical except he/she gave the Escape a 1.2 in the latter, and a 1.3 in the former. Obviously not an owner.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N16F327F could be an owner, but my money is on the opposite.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?C17F217F is one of my favorites. Clearly another non-owner.
There are more, but I'll let you figure those out on your own.
On the other side:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W38F627F and http://makeashorterlink.com/?R29F127F do seem legit. So not all of the low scores are coming from Ford bashers.
In terms of mechanical significance, a recall is no different than any other problem. The only difference is that the NHTSA has decided that it could effect safety. A bad wire connection in the airbag sensors would result in a recall, while a bad wire to the windshield wipers would be a TSB. When discussing quality, reliability, or engineering, I see no reason to treat recalls like a special category.
For the same reason, the number of recalls isn't as telling as the frequency. When the Escape was introduced and Ford voluntarily issued the first few recalls, I thought they were aggressively targeting the issues and getting the word out to their customers. This is good. However, when the recalls continued and list kept piling up, it became pretty clear that Ford simply had enforced effective quality control measures. It doesn't; change anything about the nature or importance of those recalls, but it suggests a serious problem with quality control.
Okay. Now add to that all the other evidence that points toward poor quality; Ford's average quality as a manufacturer, the Escape's low rating in CR's reliability survey, the anecdotes from owners, the anecdotes from magazines, the reviews remarking on marginal fit and finish, etc. Now you see an undeniable trend.
As for the CR-V... The last model did exceptionally well in both quality studies and reliability surveys. This speaks highly of the designers, suppliers, and plant where the new model is made. As a manufacturer, Honda has a good reputation and the stats to back it up. All this does NOT mean we can assume the same from the new CR-V. That race hasn't been run yet.
That said, when you compare these two vehicles, the CR-V certainly has the better track record. Until we see more solid data (like the recent JD Powers study), I'd certainly bet on the horse that has won a few races.
This is a flawed argument for several reasons, that where beaten to death a month or 2 ago..
a. Auto makers are not required to disclose TSB's. Honda is specifically indicated that it will no longer be disclosing TSB's for public consumption.. (Recalls are a different story, as I believe the NHTSA has to be notified of those).
b. Different companies use TSB's in different ways.. Many TSBs issued by Ford are not to address product quality problems, but instead used as an additional channel of communication to technicians that service Ford vehicles. For example, there are TSB's to say what weight oil should be used etc..
c. On the NHTSA site, you'll also see that many of the TSBs for some reason get counted twice (Same TSB number and description, shows up in the list multiple times, thus giving the appearance there are more TSB's than there really are. I'm sure this is not intensional)
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Varmit states that the number of recalls isn't as important as the frequency..
If you add the number of CRVs for a model year that were affected by recalls vs number of Escapes affected by recalls, there were many more CRV's of a particular model year affected..
This indicates to me that Ford found and fixed the flaw in their manufacturing process faster than the Honda did, allowing Ford to have less units affected by recall.
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If you want to claim Honda reliability to be superior, you pretty much have to stick to the JD Powers numbers and other consumer opinion polls which I admit do indicate that Honda overall have a slight advantage over Ford..
However, the JD Powers reliability numbers I've seen don't segment down to compare the various classes of vehicles, but just manufacturers. So the particular models may or may not be consistant with those numbers..
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
I just love this double standard Honda owners seem to have.. We are back to the TSB arguement I got bashed on so many time. Honda WITHHOLDS TSB information! I say again.. HOnda WITHHOLDS TSB information.. You cannot judge a vehicles reliability on TSB information you don't have.
Escape recalls... Here we go again.. Please READ the recalls, once again, Honda owners DO NOT want people to actually read the recalls. Because the recalls were only for certain build lots/dates of Escapes/Tributes.. THERE IS NOT ONE RECALL FOR THE 2002 ESCAPE.....
For right now the only edge the CRV has over the Escape is the IMAGE of better reliability.
Image of reliabilty just does not work for the consumer!? Honda and Toyota are still rated 1 and 2 in initial quality (short-term) and I'll bet they will do the same in the long run as well (always have and maybe always will)...That is not an image! I think I feel this way because I have had 2 real bad cars in my life and now it is a priority to at least try to get the best for my money ( in reliability) so far, I have not been let down once with Honda.
Sorry scape, but what gets me about the TSB's is the sheer gravity of the problems.....they are pretty big don't you think? What about that fix for the stalling problem? After 2 years don't you think a recall should be issued? I experienced this last month with my rent- a wreck Tribute and it is not very funny!
As for the frequency of recalls, I stand by my original post.
Regarding reliability polls/surveys, Bess wrote "I admit do indicate that Honda overall have a slight advantage over Ford."
I have a hard time with that one. From 99-01, CR ranked the CR-V 70% higher than the industry average. The '01 Escape was ranked 40% below that same average. That seems a bit more than "slight" to me. It is true that the 2002 CR-V has not been ranked, but I see absolutely no reason to doubt that it will score above average. Especially when it's already finished 2nd place in the JD Powers quality study.
Scape2 - The JD Powers study is about initial quality. It has nothing to do with engine performance, comfort, size, or any other category. Why? Because those things have no bearing on initial quality. All they measure is whether or not the vehicle breaks in the first 90 days of ownership.
Now, this thread is somewhat early in its use - neither the '01-'02 escape or '02 crv has been around long enough to get accurate data. But given the poor start of the escape it is going to have quite a road to climb (with that powerful V-6) to best the crv in quality.
Who told you what house to buy? Is there an msnhousepoint.com? No. We had a certified inspector look at ours before we signed on the dotted line. He did inform us of a few problems that would need addressed in the near future, but otherwise everything was fine and we really wanted that house because it was the best to us.
Basically, J.D. Power, CR, and all of the other "authorities" are doing the same thing as the house inspector. Using their experience, they are trying to predict the future to help you along, but they really don't know for sure. A lot of times they are right, but they are wrong at times too.
Therefore, you can't possibly say that one IS more reliable than the other without actually having experienced it. No one has that experience with these two vehicles yet.
However, I still don't care what anyone says/thinks about the reliability of these two vehicles. As we did with the house, we chose what we liked the most.
I can't believe you are having such a hard time believing that Ford bashers exist. Haven't you ever seen a GM or Dodge truck with the little Calvin peeing on a Ford oval? If you ever get a chance to talk trucks with one of them, by all means do so. Make sure you tell them how proud you are of your CR-V.
That was stated very well. The Escape will have to stay on the straight and narrow to one-up the CR-V in quality/reliability. But the CR-V will have to stay out of trouble as well. Two recalls (if the latest is true) in less than a year isn't exactly squeaky clean either. The release of the last gen went somewhat smoother wouldn't you say?