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It just doesn't seem as scientific as when the pros pick em'. Not that the pros are always right either, as they are limited in seat time too.
Note that only twenty five votes separated these two vehicles. So since the Escape won the editors' votes, and the CR-V won the readers' votes, at the very least, we can call this one a tie. Especially if you don't agree with the paragraph above.
Look again - the WRX did win the Sport Sedan Under $30,000. The Foucs did not win the editor's poll either.
To be fair, the CR-V is just a better SUV.
I do see the WRX now. I never thought to look for it in the plain old sedan section. The Focus is on Car and Drivers Ten Best list which is where I was pulling that from. The Civic is not. Note that the Escape is on their Five Best Trucks list and the CR-V is not.
It seems some of the pros don't share your opinion. How does someone from Texas become such a big fan of foreign cars anyway? Is it that hot down there already?
Maybe Ford/Mazda should do something about their PR - what you say about readers are not owners is true - a very small percentage of actual owners would vote for another car in the same class and a large percentage of actual owners would vote on what was read/heard from others concerning cars in a class they did not own. Thus, foreign cars are preceived to be 'better'. And overall, that is a true fact.
The other winners wer the Chevy Silverado for Best Pick-Up and the 2003 Range Rover for best Luxury SUV.
jfavour "Honda CR-V" Jun 6, 2002 9:03am
I hate quoting other people as it usually comes back to bite me but I don't have a Car & Driver in front of me.....
Also baggs, please note the CRV wasn't included in the choices available for 5 best trucks. Odd that one year that don't even look at it and the next they give it best of class. Of course, the Pilot JUST came out and they gave that best of class so who knows just what this says about ANY vehicle listed in the 5 Best.
Is Ford is financial straits? Yes.
Is Ford decontenting vehicles in an attempt to increase profit? Yes.
Was it reported in Auto News? Yes.
Are they looking at every aspect of their vehicles and planning to remove "goodies"? Yes: real wood trim in the Lincoln Navigator, heavy duty suspension in some car or other. Lots of other stuff.
It was my opinion that it was a bad idea to remove real wood trim from a Lincoln. It was my opinion that it looks bad -- particularly when Ford is admittedly having quality problems. It was the opinion of persons outside Ford (as reported in Auto News)that quality would suffer further as a result of the economizing effort.
I don't know if Japanese manufacturers, specifically Honda, are also decontenting. My perception is that they are not. Every year what I read in the car reviews is that the Hondas are getting better -- better interiors, more room inside, more safety equipment, more and better electronics, moon roofs, etc. But that opinion did not enter into my original statement re: Ford shooting itself in the head with its vigorous economizing on vehicle features when its quality is being so hotly debated -- Ford pointing at suppliers, suppliers pointing to Ford and stating it's Ford's interference in their engineering processes -- which, by the way, Ford admitted at some point in the last few months and said it would stop doing that. I don't have the cite on that, but it was concerning Ford trying to figure out where it was screwing up and the American side was going to adopt the European side's policy of desisting from demanding last minute engineering changes from suppliers -- a problem cited as contributing to various Ford recalls -- Escape/Tribute being one example, I seem to remember.
It is true that people may simply vote for the vehicle that was picked in whatever car mag they read. I agree. But I also have to point out that this was a Edmunds poll. Obviously, the voters read Edmunds. Edmunds staff give their most wanted to the Escape/Tribute. So if there is a bias due to what the voters have read, it should go in the direction of the Escape. The fact that the CR-V overcame that bias says something to me.
It doesn't really say anything about the vehicles except that in the opinions of some journalists, they're tops in their class. Apparantly these verdicts mean a lot to some people around here. They probably left the CR-V out because it was too old at the time. Something had to be eliminated I guess, but I don't know why.
I was assuming that you were making that comment in participation with the ongoing "Honda vs. Ford" discussion that seems to be keeping this thread alive. I viewed it as another "Honda is better" statement because there was no mention of any other company's de-contenting practices. If you meant otherwise, or were just posting a general statement, then I apologize.
You do need to realize that all companies practice this. Honda is just as guilty as any of them. But I also think they just leave the items out at the vehicle launch instead of deleting them later like the others do. If you want an example of de-contenting/cost-cutting, go check out the dash materials in the last gen Civic, then compare them to those in the new gen. The last gen has a great deal more padding than the new gen.
You should also note that the articles (at least the one I posted several posts back) also tell us how Ford is increasing its team of engineers by 700 to find less costly ways of producing vehicles without reducing quality. It doesn't say exactly what they are removing from what vehicles, but they did conduct research with customers to find out what they can live without. Here's the link again:
http://detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0205/15/a01-490121.htm
So there are many different ways to engage in cost cutting.
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
CR-V - the BEST!!
However, in this case, Edmunds recently picked the Escape as their most wanted. Using the logic Baggs put forth, this means that uninformed voters may have a bias towards the Escape. The fact that the CR-V won the survey says to me that it won based on it's own merit, not the afterglow of a positive review.
The kind of voting that Diploid mentions is also true, but it works for both vehicles.
That logic makes sense to a point, but I think there are many many more factors involved in how a reader chooses what vehicle is the best in class. We'll probably never know how accurate these reader polls really are.
No matter what you read, seat time is still the only way to find out what you really like.
You know folks, Ford, GM, etc have to be very thankful Honda did not put a V6 in the CR-V. If they had, these other suv's would be sitting on the lots till doomsday. Since most escape supporters point to professional reviews as the 'word', the only real complaint the pros have with the CR-V is that it does not have a V6.
OK, here's one for you. AMI Auto World magazine's latest issue picked the Escape as the best small SUV for the second year in a row. I don't personally have a copy, but I've read elsewhere that the 2002 CR-V was included in the tests.
How's that for trivial information?
Escape - The Best!!!!!!!
(Sorry, had to go there.)
I'm not sure how the buyout discussion relates to this. My point was that a V6 CR-V is simply a theory and that theories can be made from both sides of the fence.
Have to see what this magazine said about the escape/crv.
You said that we Escape owners are lucky that Honda did not put a V6 in the CR-V. Yet pretty much every single Honda owner on this thread says that the four banger in it is enough and the Escape engine is "overkill". So, I guess you would all be buying RAV-4's if the CR-V had a V6? You wouldn't want to have too much power would you?
Very interesting.
If the CR-V did have a V6, we would probably have one. My wife made the choice, and she loves how the Escape "gets up and goes when you hit the gas". For some reason she thinks the Civic is plenty powerful enough though.
Also very interesting.
There are buyers who get into a car, test drive it, and say to themselves, "this car is fast enough for me".
Then there are buyers who look at the brochure, read the badges on the fender, then say to themselves, "this car has a V6, it must be faster".
Right now, the CR-V appeals to the first type of buyer, but not the second. If it did appeal to both, the Escape's ace-in-the-hole would be lost. From a sales point of view, this would be bad for the Escape.
80mph.
Now put all of your opinions about quality/reliability aside. Since we're now sort of talking about the merits of a CR-V V6 model, say the CR-V did come with a 2.8L V6 (the Accord's 3.0 is probably more realistic if it fits). It is still not as big as the Escape V6 so varmint's statement about the "brochure reading shopper" would still hold true. I would imagine that the power difference between the two would be very small if any at all. I would like to know how many current CR-V owners would have taken it off of their list because it is "too powerful". Would those shoppers who drive it and say "this is fast enough for me" be turned off by the new abundance of power and now say "it is too fast for me"? Would RAV4 sales increase?
Just trying to touch all of the bases.
I don't think a V6 is unnecessary as such - however when comparing the current cr-v and escape (which is the title of the thread) I don't think the cr-v needs a V6 to match or even beat the escape. Honda knew what they were doing - the Pilot will have the V6 - so Honda will have two 'best-sellers'.
I don't think that anyone crosses off a car because it has too much power. They cross off the V6 because of expense or fuel economy. To a lesser extent, there are folks who view emissions as another reason.
The trouble is, Honda needed a small engine to squeeze under the hood. Would the V6 CR-V be so popular if it only scored marginal ratings in crash tests? Would such a nose-heavy vehicle handle as well? Would it have as much passenger space? Would it get good mpg?
There are ways around these engineering issues, but at what expense? If you put them into place, you end up with higher costs and a vehicle that is not much different than the competition. One step forward and one step back.
Here's why I expanded on muckyduck's mention of a CR-V with a V6. Apparently some people are turned off by "too much power".
#743 of 882 TOO MUCH POWER by tomsr May 27, 2002 (10:00 am)
For my uses which means no load,no passengers
few hills the CRV is fine but ESCAPE is overkill.
I have a lead foot somtimes and and I will grant
you it is a rocket compared to the CRV.My driving
record would be impaired if I had one.Seems like there is a horsepower race like in the 60's.
The PT cruiser is getting 215hp,the pathfinder
240hp,and on and on.I guess someone will
supercharge the CRV next.
http://caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/5best/2002/2002_5best_trucks_opener.xml
Hondaman - In past years, C&D has always liked the Forester for it's car-like manners and respectable cargo capacity. When the Escape came out, it took the top dog ranking. It's somewhat remarkable that the CR-V took the spot away from a one year old Ford and the new '03 Forester. Of course, other magazines will have different opinions.
I don't think tomsr is speaking for any majority either, but it goes to show that there are people out there that hold that opinion.
I wouldn't call the CR-V's victory remarkable. If you watch the little videos and read the stories associated, they clearly state that price and/or value) was "the clincher". I'm not going to argue with that.
C&D should have been more detailed as to why it awarded the CR-V the title. Did it outscore the Escape on every other feature besides pricing? Or were they both evenly matched, and if so, what's the rationale for choosing value over power as the trump card?
"The clincher: With a base price of $21,960, our top-of-the-line EX tester ranked cheaper than all but one competitor. Value plus performance plus quality add up to a winner every time."
I didn't say value is a problem. Value is one of the criteria when choosing a vehicle for a lot of people. I'm just not one of them.
npaladin said it better than I:
"What they said was that it had price over the rest....it didn't necessarily say it had equal or better performance OR quality. Just that it had a ratio they liked better."
As a matter of fact, watch the little video clip done by Frank Markus on the second page of the 5 Best story: http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/5best/2002?&page=2
I don't know exactly what stage of the testing they are in, but he states that the Escape is the leader to that point. Judging by how dirty the vehicles behind him are, I'd say they just completed the off-road portion. As you also pointed out, they did print "The clincher: With a base price of $21,960, our top-of-the-line EX tester ranked cheaper than all but one competitor." That sentence ends there, telling us that only price really was the clincher.
From all of this, I'm guessing this one came down to the end, and the better value won as it often does in these magazine comparos. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
None of this can hide the fact that these two vehicles are definitely at the top of their class. If you don't like one, you are most likely going to like the other.
muckyduck,
Yes, the CR-V won this one. Yes, we are going to beat it to death. That's what we do here. These are discussion boards, not post all the good things about your favorite vehicle boards. You keep posting the accolades, and we'll keep discussing them.
"Value is one of the criteria when choosing a vehicle for a lot of people. I'm just not one of them." ---------------- (enough said)
I was pretty surprised to see the Pilot win too, as it has not been proven yet. I guess the same could be said for the Escape though. It won it's class last year despite getting off to a rocky start.
Let's see, of the five winners:
One is a raised 4WD Civic
One is a raised 4WD Odyssey
One is actually the Odyssey
One is a heavy duty pickup truck
One is a real (and I mean real) SUV (read truck)
Maybe they should start thinking about re-naming this contest to something like "5 Best People Movers and/or Trucks".
I can almost guarantee you that the Pilot will win MT's "SUV of the Year" too. Unless they decide to create the "Crossover of the Year" award for it to win and leave the "SUV of the Year" contest to the big boys.
Right, I don't ever want to be stuck with something that doesn't make me happy just because it was cheaper. I've tried it, and discovered life is too short for that.
Our Civic was definitely a better value than our old ZX2, because it was worth almost twice as much when we traded in the ZX2, despite being a year older. But, the ZX2 was five million times more fun to drive than the Civic. That's all I cared about. She bought it because of its perceived value (which did hold up in the long run) and wants to "keep it until it dies". I hope it's soon.