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First of all, I didn't say they forced people into buying Explorers. The Explorer is no slouch, and if the offer is attractive enough, people will go for it no matter what their original intentions were.
I said: People may have turned to the Explorer when they couldn't find an Escape on the lots (not those exact words).
You said: "The same holds true for the crv - you could not find any sitting on the lot for months and it certainly did not hurt the sales numbers when the crv was outselling the escape."
Those people that took the Explorer are not coming back to buy an Escape too. You see, they already have something else. Because Honda does not have anything else to offer, the people have to wait for one to come in if that is what they want to stick with. Now that more Escapes are coming in due to previous demand, they sit on the lot a little longer because some demand has gone away.
That seems to be the case around here anyway. We bought ours in the winter when everyone and their brother wants an SUV.
(okay, I'll be nice)
Show me the certified proof that says Honda is more reliable. We all have a general perception of who's more reliable, but without proof, you are still taking a risk in buying one.
-ok for Hondaman to claim he knows all these people with Escapes/Tribs that are having problems and his "integrity" stays intact?
You're one of few refuting it. Most others agree. (doesn't necessarily mean their right...but they are...;)...)
-He continually brings up 0-60 issues..
You hate that because in the best case scenario the Escape is just as fast or a tenth of a second faster with a larger engine.
-Same goes for varmit, claiming the Transmission is less efficient in the Escape? yet knowing nothing about the two?
He 'suggested' the system Ford uses may be less efficient. He didn't say he knew nothing about the tranny, he said he didn't know enough to follow that arguement.
-and claiming the Escape seems to be getting slower???
He gave examples. Do you have proof otherwise?
-I have asked people to visit other chat rooms to see the thousands upon thousands of satisfied Escape/Tribute owners..
I'm not sure how that proves anything at all. Does that suggest there are 1000's of 'unhappy' Honda owners? Lots of people like Nutra-sweet better than sugar. Again, that doesn't mean it's better. (well it's better if you are TRYING to get brain cancer....)
- and I get bashed? saying this makes my integrity level lower?
Well, it's just fun at this point.......
Varmit, I am trying to find your HP/Torque curve for the Escape V6. This makes no sense however when you look at the 40ft/lbs advantage the Escape has over the CRV, along with the peak torque/HP of both these vehicles..
I think when you find that curve you may find your extra 40 is only good in a smaller range than the 'V's 160. 90% of available torque is on hand through most of the driving RPMs.
-Honda owners can keep justifying the 4cyl as "good enough".
The engine justifies itself. If you weren't so bent on being anti-honda you too would be impressed at what Honda squeezes out of a 4 cylinder. Obviously Ford is since they're replacing their first attempt......
-I guess there are those who want better. The V6 has advantages over the 4cyl in the CRV..
Different does not equal better. Better is subjective and we could argue until we are blue in the face about what's better. (for reference it's a Honda....=P...)
-Its plastered all over the net in hundreds of reviews. If you want I can link you to them? But if I start to fill the screens with links to Great Escape/Trib reviews, I know once again.. I'll get bashed for being a satisfied Ford Escape owner...
You were given the go ahead to place links here as long as they were not to competeing forums. You still haven't even though you said you had piles of them....You don't get bashed for being a satisfied Ford Escape owner. You get bashed for squaking about how it's a better vehicle and use one continuous arguement to back that up.
-dglozman visit www.alldata.com and try to pull up TSB information on HOnda.. Like you said opinion.
Better yet, go someplace that DOES list all the TSB's and even allows you to order them. National Highway Saftey has them....
Baggs32 makes a good point about variety....Ford offers a LOT of SUVs, and an Explorer or Explorer Sport Trac isn't a big step up from the Escape...or they could always go with a Ranger pickup and put a cap on it. This offers alternatives to the Escape, and they're right on the lot. For someone with a lease about to end, they might HAVE to go that way, especially if it's a good deal. This will "steal" sales from the CR-V, but Ford knows that they're meeting people's needs with a broad spectrum of vehicles, and that will increase their overall sales. But Honda doesn't have any near-priced alternatives to the CRV on their lots...you can either wait for a CR-V, or wait for a CR-V...the Passport, bad idea as it was, is a price jump, and Honda doesn't make a pickup or crew cab. That's probably what's contributing to the waiting list. Even Toyota has other SUVs that a customer could flip to, or a pickup, as well (Or they could get some of them into a Matrix). Honda's got all their eggs in the CR-V basket, which will drive sales up quite well, yes, but also create waiting lists (Which, incedentially, is ALSO something I would not put up with....you can't buy a CR-V around here for at least 3 months). Ford has a diverse lineup, as do most large manufacturers such as Nissan, Toyota, Jeep, and GM, which allows them to offer something to the customer right then and there. It might be more effective to look at total SUV sales for a company.
Varmint, based on the data you gave, you showed a trend, but now you're disputing it. You never said anything about the CR-V still selling well...any car will make a certain amount of sales no matter what. Can you please provide some numbers to back up your assertion on a year-by-year basis? Or perhaps intro-month by intro-month, at least? Then I will respond to it. I'm sure the CR-V did well, that's not in dispute. But you seem to have the same problem as Scape2...you are firmly convinced your vehicle of choice is the gift of God himself (or herself, for those Dogma fans out there. ;D) and will conquer all those that stand before it.
If so, I say bring on CR-V versus Hummer H1...I'm sure the CR-V wins on price and number of sales there too, right?
Yes, there are thousands of happy Escape owners out there posting good news about their vehicles.. Look at the various car related boards such as this one, and you'll see.. Escape-Central.com alone has over 1600 members..
Also, a little bit of a nit pick.. You claim that Honda has made many more reliable cars than Ford.. Your quote: "Honda has built many more reliable cars than Ford."
Sorry, but if you are trying to measure that way, you'd see in fact Ford builds many more reliable cars than Honda.. Most sites such as JD Powers etc, do seem to indicate that the Honda's quality is slightly better than Fords. You should stick to that point..
However, because Ford produces so many more automobiles than Honda, and the difference in the reported quality is close, in fact you would see that the number of 'reliable' Fords does exceed Honda's. (BTW, I bet the number of Fords that have experience problems also exceeds Honda's too, again, because of the large numbers Ford sells)..
Now I hear the whining that the only reason Ford sells so many vehicles is because they have alot of dealerships and much higher manufacturing capacity compared to Honda.. Why does Ford have so many dealerships and capacity? Because there is enough demand to support that many..
If the demand were as great for the CRV, (and assume your correct that Honda as limited production capability), wouldn't Honda be able to charge alot more for the CRV vs the Escape?
Last time I looked, they were both within a few thousand $ of each other..
around San Diego there is lots of.The gas mileage
is not the best but it is the same as I got in my
96 SUBARU OUTBACK.I imagine the Escape would do worse with more cylinders.I wish someone could tell me why my other car does so well.It is a
2001 Acura TL with 3.2 liters and 225 hp.It gets
20 mpg around town and the power is amazing.If I
drove it daily I would have a few speeding tickets.It costs more to drive because it uses premium gas.
greetings from the florida keys.
OTOH, I do wonder how many folks show up looking at the Explorer and decided to go with the less expensive Escape? Once again, I don't think we have the data to figure that out.
Scape2 - You are correct, the Pilot does not compete in this class. However, you might want to note that the Honda with "the least powerful engine in it's class" is once again outrunning the more powerful Ford.
As for the 2002 Escape getting slower.. it's just an observation. So far, all the road tests I've seen have it running 0-60 in more than 9 seconds. Seems odd, that's all.
Npaladin - You can find yearly sales figures here. Or look them up on the Honda website. I offer that link above because it's easier than clicking around.
I'm not sure where I am disputing any of my own claims. Please explain. I'm saying that the CR-V was a top seller for four years despite newly designed competitors, many of which had the V6 (or at least more power). It wasn't until the CR-V was in its last year that any other vehicle surpassed it.
Bess - "Now I hear the whining that the only reason Ford sells so many vehicles is because they have alot of dealerships and much higher manufacturing capacity compared to Honda.. Why does Ford have so many dealerships and capacity? Because there is enough demand to support that many.."
No one ever said that was the only reason. If they did, it was an exaggeration. The point is that Ford has more retail outlets (like McDonalds vs Bob's burger stand), yet Honda is selling more vehicles.
You have to remember that FoMoCo is more than twice the size of Honda. Of course Honda isn't going to have the same production capacity. One or two good vehicles isn't going to change that overnight. Honda added a CR-V line to their Swindon plant in England to help meet demand for the 2002 model here in the US and in Europe. So while they can't change the size of the company overnight, they are growing to meet demand.
"If the demand were as great for the CRV, (and assume your correct that Honda as limited production capability), wouldn't Honda be able to charge alot more for the CRV vs the Escape? Last time I looked, they were both within a few thousand $ of each other.."
Currently, Honda dealers are charging more for the CR-V. In high demand regions, like the SF Bay area, the CR-V goes at a premium over MSRP. The difference between these vehicles may only be a few thousand dollars, but that's 10% of the total purchase price. Though prices should come down as more vehicles begin to arrive from the Swindon plant.
Resale: Numbers don't add up in edmunds TCO area.. Very misleading.
I punched in my 2001 Escape and did a CUSTOM appraisel..
2001 XLT V6 Black, every option but sunroof..
Trade is 17,895, Private party is 19,247, Dealer sale is 21,722, Certified dealer is 22,367.
Not bad since I paid 22,800 for mine. About a 1.5-2K loss if I were to try to sell it today.. Did the same for a 2001 CRV SE. No other options available.. Hmmmm.. nothing like being stuck with stuff you don't want or wishing for stuff you can't have..
Trade 16,061, Private party is 17,217, Dealer sale is 19,150, Certified Dealer is 20,060.
Asked my dealer friend about these numbers for each of these. After about a day he got back to me and said "These are pretty close"...
goldencouple.. hills are usually measured in a percentage of slope.. not degrees.. where do you live???
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
What exactly was your point???
"The company is recalling certain 1997 to 2000 models of the Honda Accord, Civic and Prelude cars, the CR-V sport-utility vehicle and the Odyssey minivan. It's also recalling some 1999 Acura TL sedans and certain 1997 to 1999 CL coupes, spokesman Mike Spencer said."
WHat was that you were saying about not affectiong CR-Vs...only Accords and Civics?
The early reports that I read only said Civics and Accords. And so far, not even cars.com or Edmunds has any articles about this recall, so the news is pretty fresh off the plate.
BTW- what "article" are you referring to?
Here's another quote from the article:
"There have been no accidents or injuries reported to American Honda related to this issue."
Not the tangent - the sine - sin(44.4o) = 0.7
It would be tangent if it were "rise over run" but it's rise over distance along the road.
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
The recall DOES affect the CRV by the way. www.auto.com.. www.alldata.com visit these sites both say the same thing about the Honda recall of 1.3 MILLION vehicles..
goto
http://www.autosite.com and click on recalls.
Browsing through all of the years for the fords from 97 to 2002 and then doing the same for the Honda you can see they list recalls for both makers.
It looks like most of all the Fords models are almost listed for every year and each vehicle year and make have about 3 to 6 RECALLS for every vehicle! I even saw 10 FOR SOME!!! Look at the 1999 Ford list!!! Woah....
There are Honda's there as well but they usually only list one item for recall. Go through like I did and see for yourself!
No recall for the first year 97 CRV
For the first year 2001 Escape there are 4 items.
Case and point...
Example: Lady buys a hot coffee at McDonalds, and she spills it on her lap. She wins a multimillion dollar lawsuit saying that McDonalds is liable because there is no warning on the coffee cup. Since then everybody and everything is labeled with disclaimers and warnings! Everybody needs to cover their behinds so they don't get sued.
Think about this, there are many people working at that www.autosite.com, and information has to change hands to be put on the internet so mistakes will be made (just like anything or anywhere), it's called business. Anyways, if something is posted wrong they don't want to be held reliable for the misinformation. I gaurantee that 99.9% of that data is correct!!!
If you disagree with what I said above, then I wont even waste my time discussing the crv versus escape topic with you anymore because that is how ridiculous I think your last post is.
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
The Ford recalls didn't make a splash at first. It wasn't until there were several in a row that the media started to pound the Escape. I'm sure that if Honda had six recalls in four months, the press would be all over it.
The CR-V was introduced in Japan in 1996 and did not come over to US shores until 1997. So we really don't what 1st year issues it may have had. It was already a year old when we got it.
"Pristine reliability" is going a bit too far. However, it's clear that Hondas, in general, are more reliable than Fords. The CR-V in particular has a long history of reliable service. OTOH, the Escape has a documented history of problems. There is data to prove it.
Annecdotal evidence is worth nothing. Why keep bringing it up?
TSB data has nothing to do with reliability. Even if it did, you can get summaries of each TSB. Just because one site doesn't have complete listings doesn't mean the information isn't available.
Most hills that we consider steep are between 8-12%. I wonder if the original post was supposed to be 7%, and not 70%.
I go away for a while and scape2 has a field day with one recall. I have a question: Does anybody know of any company that has NEVER had a recall?? NO! However some have more than others and Ford is one of them! Don't get me wrong scape, I don't hate Ford, just the Escape. I have tried the Explorer and loved it and I absolutely love the Mustang!
You questioned about the existence of my logic concerning "all these people that I know"!!? Well I know 2 people that have an Escape and the other a Tribute. They have had problems from catalytic converters to computer malfunctions (and more) that have caused stalling and towings to the garage! My experience has caused the same. I know about ten people that have a CRV and have had nothing but minor issues such as a squeek or whatever BUT never anything mechanical! I need more proof of your claims.
Yes it looks like there is going to be a recall BUT it would seem that this problem only occurs after high millage or something like that! Not bad if you ask me when almost all of the Escapes problems have occured right off the assembly line!! I don't know but I have never heard of anybody having ignition problems and there are some where I live that have over 200 000km's on their Accords and Civics so how much of a problem this is, I am not sure. Could be preventive so they won't end up with a "sludge" issue like Toyota!
And enough of your hollow threats to post hundreds of links on the Escape's greatness. First you say you won't because you're not allowed. The host called you on that and said go ahead. Then you claim the links are rolling in..just wait. Waiting.... Then you keep going on about how you can bring this forum to its knees with links singing the praises of the escape.
Just stop already.
And my 2.4 does everything I need it to. But then again I don't need it to tow 1000 lbs up a mountain because I don't have any around here.
few hills the CRV is fine but ESCAPE is overkill.
I have a lead foot somtimes and and I will grant
you it is a rocket compared to the CRV.My driving
record would be impaired if I had one.Seems like there is a horsepower race like in the 60's.
The PT cruiser is getting 215hp,the pathfinder
240hp,and on and on.I guess someone will
supercharge the CRV next.
I know people who own Hyundias with 130,000 miles on them too.. along with Dodge, Chevy, Nissan, Volvo... that have high miles..
You admit you hate the Escape.. you know why.. because its better than your CRV..
I know the Escape has a heavier max payload, payload and GVWR than the CRV. Escape handled this test very well. All this talk of the 2.4 is better this and that and HP/Torqure curve..and handles heavy loads just fine.. is wrong. I just proved it to myself along with a manager of a Honda dealership.. The test took place on HWY 26 up to MT Hood and over to Warm Springs reservation. The arguemnent is over. The Escape V6 is a better combination for these size of vehicles. The V6 offers a better HP/Torque rating for more power when you need it for passing, accelertion, hauling, towing.. you name it. As much as Honda CRV owners want to discount the V6 advantage, performance, handling, acceleration is factor to many when buying a vehicle.
freeber, I have the links. I just thought what is the use? will it change anything, nope. You can find the reviews as easy as I can.
But you promised us!
Both are powerful, reliable, attractive features, with thousands of very satisfied owners, and a few (for each), that had less than positive experiences..
It's one thing to point out that you've (or had friends who've) had bad experiences with a vehicle, or that it doesn't do what you want it to do..
To generically classify the owner of another brands vehicle as ignorant, or not as wise as you, or inferior in some way, simply based on their vehicle choice shows the narrowness of ones own mind..
This doesn't apply to one group or another on this board, but to a few on both sides.. You know who you are..