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However, between Ford and Honda, I find the overall quality of the Honda to be better. They just seem to have a better fit and finish, and a caring attitude (at least my dealer has such an attitude). In my opinion, it's not even that close. It is a matter of engineering styles and philosophy, as well as attention to detail.
I used to prefer Ford engineering, but once I went to Honda, I find that I prefer the Honda engineering. The two companies are completely different in style.
I know! "Out the door" price for a loaded 5-speed P5, after all rebates, S-Plan, trade-in, taxes, etc., would be something like $10,000 for us. That's like $200/month with a loan from our credit union too!
However, I'd rather save that money and spring for a Mustang GT convertible instead of the coupe. It's what I've always wanted and I just don't want to settle any more.
At least it'll be easier getting the toddler into his car seat when the roof is down in the summer!
Which company are we talking about? That could apply to either Honda or Ford.
That Detroit News article on the Honda SUT hit a chord with me. (Getting off topic here...) The Ford dealer quoted at the bottom embodied exactly what I think is wrong with the way the domestics are doing business. Here's the statement:
Is Ford worried?
"Not at all," said Rod Locricchio, general manager of Mike Dorian Ford in Mount Clemens.
"The bottom line is price, payment, affordability. And I don’t care how strong it is, how tough it is, how good it looks. It’s all about price point."
The bottom line has become value. That's not the same thing as the lowest price. Ford themselves have been forced to up the production of the F-150 Lariat because people are willing to pay the extra $5,000 for the additional features and nicer interior. Honda and Toyota are increasing market share even though their vehicles cost more than the majority of the competition. That's because many view the higher price as justified by a better product. In other words, a better value. A lower base price is nice, but if it's paired with a lesser base vehicle, it's not good enough.
This Ford dealer is thinking about how to compete with other base products... the kind of stuff that Dodge or Chevy might bring to the market. The price war has been keeping GM, Chrysler, and Ford from stealing off each other's plate, but it hasn't held back the imports.
With my '99 CR-V approaching 100K miles, I've been tempted to start saving for a newer utility vehicle. But I've started a roadster savings fund. As soon as I can buy an S2000, Miata, or whatever fits my fancy, my utility concerns will melt away.
The MAZDASPEED Miata looks pretty promising. Wouldn't mind having one of those myself! The kid kind of put that wish on the back burner though.
I've actually been trying to convince my wife that the RX-8 would be perfect for us because of it's four doors. She's not buying it. But she will let me buy a Stang because she knows I've always wanted one. Go figure!
I'm also one of the people happy with Ford's decision to keep the solid rear axle setup for the new model. Some vehicles should always have one. The Mustang is one of them.
"Which company are we talking about? That could apply to either Honda or Ford."
I was referring to Ford wanting to get ahead of GM. They almost did it before Jacques "the ripper" stepped in.
The imports are definitely on their (All three of them) radar now, but they still love to do battle with each other.
I'd own a used Miata right now, if I could only fit inside of it. By the time I have enough money saved, the next generation should be out. Maybe I'll fit. I do fit into the S2000. Even though it's more capable than I'll ever use, it's currently at the top of my list.
There have been times when Honda is so focused on competing with Toyota, I think they miss the big picture. Hence my confusion on your cross-pacific comparison.
Recent news predicts Toyota passing Ford in global sales sometime in 2004. So Ford had better be paying attention to that radar.
Are you talking profit, rather than gross revenues?
varmint,
I've sat in both the S2000 and Miata at car shows. Both were very tight but the S2000 did give me more room. The Miata door actually pinned my left leg between it and the steering wheel. Ouch!
I still liked it though.
"My toy would be a third vehicle, so seat counts are not a concern."
I was just thinking of doing that this morning. By the time I buy the Civic will be pushing 9 or 10 years (it's almost 8 right now with < 56,000 miles) and probably won't be worth much at that time.
Anyway, it is snowing again today and I was thinking about the commute to work, in the snow, in a RWD vehicle. Traction control will help, but still...
The Escape has really spoiled my wife and I when it comes to driving in the snow or rain. It makes it too easy.
The Civic might make a good "beater" for the winter months. The Mustang will definitely go in the garage though!
Odie
My Homepage
It must have been custom or a 4 cyl with a V6 badge (you can buy them on Ebay real cheap). The '05's will have a floor shifter for the V6 but still only an auto tranny.
Mikefm98 - Coincidence! Mine passed 87K miles a few weeks back. Has anything broken on yours? I had my first unscheduled work done back in October. The distributor cap had become carbonized and needed to be replaced.
Baggs - I barely fit in the S2000, but that's to be expected. For 2004, they scooped out the door panels and increased the interior space a bit. I haven't sat in one of those yet.
Lease residual studies place the CR-V at the top of the pack for the second year.
I asked why Ford hasn't released it to the general public. His Answer; "There isn't a demand for it, so it's not offered."
I asked how much was it for the custom build. His answer; "$12,000 in addition to the base price 2004 Escape XLT 4x4 V6. But of coarse his medical insurance flipped the bill."
My comment (nothing bad towards custom jobs, or medically handicapped person's because my father was one) "It must be nice."
Odie
Like I said my '97 Wrangler inflated in price. I financed $14k from a sticker of $15k. It was a 4cyl Sport (all sports come Standard with the 6cyl) and it was the limited (only 150) paint color Citroen Pearl (baby poo green) with a white top. I only had for 2.5 years and put 37k in miles on it. When I traded on the '98 Stratus 2.4ltr Turbo($22,750) I was given $15,500 trade-in and I didn't owe anything on the Wrangler. I guess it was because it was rare that I got such a good trade-in.
Odie
Here's an example: A 69 1/2 Mustang with unique features that were only introduced at the half-year mark is going to hold some value. That's because classic Mustangs have value as collector items. A Honda Civic with a coffee-can muffler, unique body skirts, and a big wing on the back is not going to hold much value. Slammed Civics are not collector cars. I don't care how unique the mods are.
This manual Escape falls into the second category. Interesting, but only with limited appeal. And those who find it appealing are not going to be the ones willing to pay MSRP for a used car. I think this Escape would be a good deal only because you could get it on the cheap. I'd never recommend to anyone that they pay a premium for a non-factory tranny in an otherwise ordinary car.
As I approach a purchase decision, I'm trying to be as clear and realistic with myself as possible on how I'll use whatever vehicle I purchase. I don't intend to go literally off-road. I do intend to traverse dirt roads, perhaps rough ones, en route to good camping and fishing spots. Most of time - 90% or more - I'll be on pavement in town and on the freeways.
I liked the CR-V better than the Escape. It felt tighter, and the steering seemed sportier, higher effort, not as over-boosted as the Escape (or the Jeep GC). Some posters have spoken of a rental car feel regarding the Escape, and I concur. The interior is extremely bland and lacks energy (feng shui anyone?). The CR-V seems fresher, almost a happier environment.
The CR-V suspension seemed better at soaking up bumps.
I didn't like the shifter placement on either vehicle, and prefer it on the floor (which I understand the new 2005 Escape will have in a month or two).
My only other complaints about the CR-V: wheels and tires are undersized given the overall size of the vehicle - it looks out of proportion and the Escape has a much more balanced look. And weird cost control quirk: There is a button on the driver side that opens or unlocks the tailgate window. The diagram on the button is that of a sedan with an open trunk - it's really a trunk release button for a car, probably used on the Civic or Accord. It was weird to see a button with a diagram so at odds with the actual vehicle it's placed in.
I wasn't convinced by my Explorer and Grand Cherokee drives that they would add much to my life beyond a CR-V, so I'm unlikely to go that route absent a jawdropping deal on one. I do wonder whether I should wait till January/February for the revised Escape/Tribute - maybe the interior will be energized a bit?
that big black snout on the crv, doesn't appeal to me. i think honda doesn't want to paint it because they think it would cut into pilot sales.
Honda is going to be forced to put some sort of V6 in the CRV its inevitable.
As far as the "rental car" feel/stigma... The CRV is no cadillac my friend. The plastics are pretty much on par with each other, I have the opportunity to compare side by side...
I checked out the Equinox site and I see that it's 188.8 inches long. That's much bigger than a CR-V, which is in turn slightly larger than an Escape. It's too big, an inch shorter than an Explorer. Given such a length, I assume it will be much heavier as well. With 185 HP from its V-6, I foresee poor performance.
One of the things I like about the Escape is its tidiness - its compact, nimble size - about five inches shorter than a CR-V. I want something that's tossable and easy to park, and the CR-V's extra cargo capacity doesn't matter to me. But that's not enough reason to buy a 2004 Escape given my positive driving impression of the CR-V.
I believe the Equinox is based on the same basic design as the Saturn VUE. It should give you a respectable idea of what the Equinox will be like. The VUE weighs in around 3,600 lbs and, with a 106" wheelbase, it comes pretty close to mid-size proportions. Prior to adding a third row of seats, the Highlander was was about the same weight/size.
Speaking of the VUE, Saturn is giving it a Honda 3.5L V6 with 250 ponies to move it's bulk. That might worth another test drive.
That's been your song since the beginning of this thread. Now Honda has two small SUVs powered by I4 engines. With the 2005 model year, Ford refreshed the Escape. They did this with a better I4, not a revised V6. Seems to me that four bangers are doing just fine.
The 4Runner is not an viable option because both of its engines (V-6 and V-8) require premium fuel. That's just so wasteful of cash - I won't buy a gas-hungry SUV that requires premium.
By the way, desertman = arizonajoe. Long story: Edmunds has this weird quirk where they don't let you select a password for your login, they just assign you a random, impossible-to-recall string of characters. So I just chose the Auto Login option, which is cookie-based. But this presented a problem when I wanted to login at work - a different computer. I had no idea what the password was, so I just created another account for this computer.
tidester, host
As for the revisions to the Ford V6, those qualities are not the ones that Scape is talking about. His concern is power.
Toyota upped the power in the RAV4 this year. Not with a V6, but a 2.4L I4. Mitsu came into the market this past year with another I4, as did the Element. Nissan is introducing their X-Trail in Canada with a 2.5L I4.
Suzuki uses a small 2.5L V6 for the Grand Vitara, but it's a small V6 with no more power than most of the I4s. The VUE, Santa Fe, X-Terra, and Liberty are all so big even the V6 feels adequate rather than powerful (heck, the X-Terra needed a super-charged V6!). As mentioned before, those rigs are more like smaller mid-sized vehicles than mini-suvs.
Really, it's only the Escape/Tribute pair that rely on a big V6 to get the job done.
From what I gather the Honda/GM V6 deal is not forever. This V6 they are buying from Honda is a stop gap while GM builds its own small V6.
You comment on how big the Liberty,Xterra and VUE are. Isn't the CRV roughtly the same size?? It is obvious to me you have not had the opportunity to actually use a mini-SUV in like conditions along side the CRV or any other 4cyl powered small SUV. There is a difference, as much as you want to downplay the V6 in these small SUV's there is a HP/Torque difference and it matters...
"You comment on how big the Liberty,Xterra and VUE are. Isn't the CRV roughtly the same size??"
I don't think that varmit was reffering to dimension
but rather to HP/weight & Tq/weight ratios. The Liberty has alot of torque & HP, but comparing it with the Escape by the ratios....the Liberty has about the same torque & less HP. Keep in mind that these numbers are peak values, and will not reflect the HP/W ratios during driving conditions. The Honda also has less than the Escape, but the way the Honda 4 has there tourque curve it actually felt as good as the Liberty and others when I drove it.
A bit of history.. I know a manager at a Honda dealership. I was able to take an automatic CRV and load it down. Take it up into the Cascade mountains (NW territory) and believe me there is a huge difference when comparing it to a V6 Escape loaded down... To downplay a 40HP and 40ft/lb of torque advantage I just don't understand???
Your comment of "felt as good"?? in what conditions? on the street? no load? Hit the gas of the Escape at about 30MPH and compare that to a CRV. The advantage of a V6 and the extra confidence with the HP/Torque advantge is evident.
We can go around and around with 0-60 times also. The 5spd CRV is the only combo that will beat an Escape 0-60. Along with the mention you MUST rev the heck out of the 2.6, drop the clutch, redline between gears in order to achieve the numbers.. Something I highly doubt anyone does in everyday driving..
The difference in horsepower and torque between it and the Escape V-6 is 41 HP and 34 lb-ft respectively :-)
Because they're not small. Or in the case of the Suzuki's 2.5L V6, it's no more powerful than an I4.
My comments regarding the schism in the small SUV class are based on more than just one dimension. For example, length alone is not enough. But length, weight, price, and a mid-size truck's engine engine might do it. This subject could become a whole thread of it's own, but here goes... Rather than focus on the exact measurements, I'll put this in general terms.
The vehicles that started the small SUV craze were originally known as "mini SUVs". They were all different, but they each had a four banger, small overall dimensions, a curb weight close to 3,100 lbs, a price in the $16-22K range, and modest value as a utility vehicle (read: not heavy towing, off-roading, or hauling).
Now we have rigs like the X-Terra and Liberty. Would you call either of those "mini"? Popular models include V6 engines, weigh around 4,100 lbs, are designed for towing and off-roading, the average MSRP is well over $24K, and (except in length) are similar in size to mid-size vehicles. The only thing they are missing is cargo space and high end features to drive the price up. Otherwise, they would be market twins for the Pathfinder and Grand Cherokee. (In fact, sales of the mid-size rigs suffered when both were introduced). Essentially, the market doesn't know where to put them. They are slighter smaller and slightly cheaper than the mid-size vehicles, so they must be mini-suvs, right?
No. Not really. Make a list of mid-size SUVs that don't have a third row of seats and see what they have in common with these two. Think Rodeo, Montero Sport, Blazer (not Trailblazer), Highlander, and Axiom.
The Santa Fe and VUE are closer to the mini SUV formula. That's true. But the VUE is moving upmarket and Hyundai is introducing a small SUV called the Tucson. They say it will slot below the Santa Fe and compete directly with the CR-V and RAV4. Why would they be introducing a smaller SUV if the Santa Fe were already direct competition in this segment? Ditto with Nissan, who is bringing the X-Trail into the same markets as the X-Terra. So, it appears that there is still a lucrative market for small, 4 cylinder, economical SUVs. V6 engines are simply not required.
"Your comment of "felt as good"?? in what conditions? on the street? no load? Hit the gas of the Escape at about 30MPH and compare that to a CRV. The advantage of a V6 and the extra confidence with the HP/Torque advantge is evident."
My test drive was with normal city driving.... not loaded down. I don't know about you, but the most the miles my wife drives are not loaded down, not pulling a trailer, and will be around town.
In my humble opinion the CRV is every bit as drivable, and has all the acceleration needed for the type of driving that we do....and we save on fuel cost :^)
I guess it comes down to this for me. Why would you buy a 4cyl 4x4 SUV that has limited towing, pulling, hauling and could become questionable when in 4x4 conditions or needing to pull itself out of the snow or mud/dirt?? When a 4x4 wagon, 4x4 car, 4x4 Toyota Matrix? would do you just fine?? What advantage does the CRV have over a 4x4 Subaru wagon? The only one I can see is your driving line of sight.
As far as MPG advantage (vonhef) we are talking a 2MPG difference here? (Automatic to Automatic). 13gal tank.. we are talking.. what?? maybe 3dollars a fill-up? I'll pay the 3 dollars knowing my Escape has the power I need when I need it...
As for the Forester XT... If that tells you something, then what is the super-charged 3.5L V6 in the X-Terra saying? Does this mean that V6s are not enough?
Real4wd1 - Actually, several magazine reviews have commented that the engine in the CR-V "feels like a small V6". The 200hp variant in the TSX has been described as much smoother than anything but the BMW I6. Meanwhile, the V6 in the original VUE and the X-Terra have often been knocked for poor NVH.
I'm not saying that I4s are generally as smooth as V or I sizes, but there are ways around those differences.
Example: 2004 CRV EX 5spd for $20,755 (4) at this price... (22 CRV's in stock) 2004 CRV-EX Automatics $21,922 (2) at this price.. (18 in stock) No shortage of CRV's in the Northwest..
Example: for Escapes... 2004 Escape XLT.. $18,495 (5) at this price.. Here is the clincher.. 04 Escape "Limited" $21,975.. these are loaded with leather, sunroof, center console that shows outside temp, inside temp, direction ect.. tow package with transmission cooler, power everything, 6CD changer, foglamps 16" aluminum wheels and more! (4) at this price.. Want dealership phone numbers?? e-mail me at Sarduci1@aol.com...
Fact is, most folks are still paying close to MSRP for the CR-V. A testament to how much value the market places on them. Meanwhile, Ford is paying customers up to $2,000 to get them to buy an Escape.
The other day scape2 said that magazines have criticized the Escapes snow-worthiness. Have they?
The only review on that topic that I remember is the comparo one titled "White Snow and the Eleven Dwarves" (Car & Driver?) in which the Escape/Tribute finished at the top.
Scape2, are you making things up so that you can look good as you swat them down?
Are you familiar with the term, "paper tigers"?
Also, after seeing the 2005 Ford Freestyle... I might have to maybe upgrade next fall to one. But only if the come out with the FX model. It looks like it might be (in size) between the Escape and Explorer.
Odie
The stock Contitental Contitracs on the Escape and Tribute are pretty mediocre tires, as are the Bridgestone Dueler H/Ts on the CR-V. The ideal replacement tires are the Michelin Cross Terrain SUVs for the Escape/Trib and the Bridgestone Dueler H/Ls for the CR-V. I'll immediately replace the tires are whichever model I buy next month.
As far as the Escape not doing so hot in snow.. This was somthing that just came to mind from an article I had read from a review on the internet years ago...
Would you pay full MSRP for a vehicle if you didn't think it was worth the money? Neither would I, nor most other Americans. But that is pretty much what CR-Vs are going for. The only logical solution is that they do think it is worth the money.
We've been over the discounts, I'm sure you can find the posts.