USED European Luxury Cars (pre 1990)

Mr_Shiftright

I certainly see a lot of them, the 300s I mean.

jrosasmc

But weren't 240Ds supposed to also have that longevity reputation?

ghulet

...it seems that since the 240Ds were less expensive to begin with, probably fewer of them survived (does that make any sense)? Plus, the 240Ds are severely underpowered (less so with manual transmission), which is less of a problem with 300s. I rarely see early-style (116) 300SDs any more. I think the 116s in general rust a lot worse than same-age 300s, and those ugly bumpers tend to get bent or fall off pretty easily too.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes you see a lot of the newer W123 bodies.

I think the longevity reputation is mostly a myth based on the great build quality of the cars. They can look good even when their mechanicals are pretty worn out, so people keep rebuilding them. So in that sense they have "longevity" but it doesn't come cheap.

It's like Gordon's old Volvo P1800. Do they all go 1,000,000 miles? No, 99% of them die just like any old car does at the appointed mileage for most cars (150K-200K).

jrosasmc

Ah, so most owners of these old '60s-'70s Mercedes keep pouring thousands of dollars into their vehicles to keep them running at high mileages, right?

Mr_Shiftright

Well, not thousands. I don't pour thousands, but it's not like getting to 233,000 was just a matter of putting fuel into it. I guess I spend about $100 a month on maintenance and repairs when you average it out, and I pay very close attention to everything. I doubt most owners would do this, since you can buy these old crates so cheap. You put an old 300D into the hands of someone who doesn't know cars and can't afford $100 a month and the car is soon a dead duck.

jrosasmc

Per the reference to Gordon's old Volvo: If he averaged 50k miles per year, then technically, he should have gotten rid of that car when it hit 150k-200k miles? ('69 or '70)

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, 200K would about put an end to a P1800 in normal service with a normal owner. It would be time to overhaul quite a bit of the car at that point.

jrosasmc

When reading a book devoted to Mercedes-Benz recently, I came across a chapter devoted to the diesel cars. The end of this chapter noted that "diesel-engined Mercedes may need new valve seals and piston rings around 100,000 miles, as well as new engine and transmission mounts." I thought to myself, wow, even basic Mercedes like these need those new parts around that mileage? I always thought parts like those would last for eternity. But I will say this, it is extremely difficult to find a Mercedes diesel, whether it be a W115 or W123 chassis, that hasn't been driven over 100,000 miles. That's a fact.

Case in point: I had a chat with one of the mechanics at my local independent Volvo shop not too long ago. I asked him if he knew anything about old Mercedes diesels like the 240D and 300D, and he said that he had worked on some of them in the past. He told me that if you try to treat an elderly Benz diesel like an Accord/Camry/Maxima, then it will not be good in your favor. I had a friend who did that once. He purchased a 300D new in 1987; also had a Honda Accord during that time. Did very minimal, if any, maintenance to the Benz. Needless to say, it was pretty much shot after five years and 80k miles.

Mr_Shiftright

There are many stubborn myths surrounding automobiles of various types.

Fact is, if you neglect any vehicle, it will deteriorate in direct proportion to the amount of neglect you subject it to.

I like to tell the story of the (then) one year old Mazda RX-7 that I personally saw dragged to the wrecking yard. Every panel was dented, the interior had old food trays sticking to the carpet, and the oil had not been changed for 34,000 miles.

jaserb

Bought it new. Mileage? About 35k. The typical "little old lady only drives it to church on Sunday".

-Jason

baxter225

I went along with a friend this weekend to look at a 1989 Mercedes-Benz 560 SL. It had about 166,000 miles showing, a couple of good sized dents, and an interior that smelled like mildew. The carpets were not glued down, and there were traces of sandy dirt underneath, as well as in the trunk under the spare. There were also numerous little problems with the interior, such as dangling sun visors, loose ashtray, cracked console, cheesy aftermarket stereo, etc. The seller claimed to have had the car for a year. The owners manual indicated the car was originally from the gulf coast, so my guess is that it may have been flood damaged. The car seemed to run fine, though. Even then, they wanted $9600 for it, which seems like a bad deal all the way around, but at what point would it be worthwhile, if ever?

speedshift

With all that sand he could sell it as beachfront property.

andre1969

...do old Benz Diesels start to leak oil around the valve covers? That's what usually kills engine mounts. Well, that and constantly stomping on an engine with a lot of torque!

ghulet

For $9600, I'd rather have a nice 380SL than a crummy 560SL. You'd think the seller would at least *try* to make this thing presentable for sale. I would steer clear, especially with 166k miles.

sddlw

So lets say you buy it and fix it up. Cosmetics: seats, carpet, soft top, wood trim, vinyl trim, new stereo, your probably looking at $8-10K. Body work and paint at a good shop. Minimum $2k or let's just say $6K for a complete top to bottom paint job. Mechanical? There's simply no way that car is going to need less than $3-4K, sight unseen. Hoses, belts, bushings, probably brakes and shocks and struts, and this is not even considering having to do any serious work. If it needs any serious engine work, add $5-10K or more.

So if the guy gave it to you for free, you might be able to get a nice car out of it after spending $20K. Ot it might turn into the mechanical nightmare and cost you even more.

In this case, I would judge a car by it's looks. If it's beat up on the outside, chances are it's beat up on the inside too.

If you really want an older SL keep looking. Find the best one you can, with the lowest miles. And even then, expect to spend, on average, a couple hundred a month keeping it on the road. Is it worth it? Depends on your point of view. My wife drives a 84 380SL that is in pristine condition. She loves that car and wouldn't consider gettting rid of it. People are always stopping her on the street and commenting on the car. Sure it costs us a bit on maintanence, but depreciation on a new car is costly too.

baxter225

As ratty as that 560SL was, it still had an aura about it, but who knows what else could go wrong in the near future.

Mr_Shiftright

At 168K the car is just about used up, especially considering the condition.

Sounds like a good parts car or a hobby for someone on a trust fund.

Run, don't walk, away.

jrct9454

...are all over the place. No reason to buy a POS that is clearly used up...and certainly not at the price being quoted. As noted above, even if the car were a giveaway, I'm not sure anyone but a home hobbyist mechanic would want to touch it with the proverbial long pole.

I put a friend on to a classified ad last year in our local paper when he was looking, and the result was a '88 560SL with a verifed 16k miles on the odo that he bought for $16.5k. He's had to the usual replacement of rubbers and gaskets, and new tires, but now has a car that looks and feels semi-new for the price of a new Accord.

He was looking at the same time at an '87 560SL with about 30k miles that was in comparable shape and the asking price was under $20k. There are lots of sellers out there who think these cars are precious metal of some kind, but there are plenty of low-mileage cars around, and enough financial guidance [NADA, Kelley, etc] so that there is no reason to overpay for a good car. Of course you have to be dealing with a seller that actually has feet planted firmly on the planet, first...

afdeluca

I am considering purchasing this vehicle. One owner, regularly maintained, about 73,000 miles (Carfax verified). The interior and exterior is very clean, and the asking price is $12,000.

Are there any typical problems that I should be on the lookout for on this type of vehicle? Any general thoughts on the advisability of buying it? I can afford regular maintenance. How many more miles might I get out of this vehicle??

Thanks in advance for your input.

ghulet

That price seems a bit steep, the $12k is more in 560 SEL territory. There isn't a ton of difference between the two, but I'm thinking $10k ought to buy a super nice 300. Bill, anyone?

mminerbi

I'm posting a copy of a message below from the archived "High Total Miles" topic because the claim seems very impressive, if not extraordinarily so. I'd be interested in others' thoughts on this mileage claim:

"#335 of 347 Mercedes Diesel with Very High Miles by gtmustang Mar 01, 2001 (08:07 pm)

I own an old 1978 Mercedes 300SD Turbo Diesel. It has the original engine and transmission in it. This car
has 889,000 miles on it. Yes 889,000 miles!. the body is in very good shape with no rust and it has the original paint on it. It has been passed down in the family from my great uncle to my father to my brother to
me. Everybody in my family who has owned this vehicle has pampered this car since new. We have done
regular maintenance to it and have always changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Mercedes Benz has very
reliable Diesel engines which are virtually bulletproof. They last a lifetime and can go over 1,000,000 miles.
We are thinking of placing our vehicle in the Mercedes Benz museum in Germany for lifetime display when
it reaches the 1,000,000 mile limit. Mercedes says that they will buy us a free Mercedes Benz of our choice
if our vehicle reaches 1,000,000 miles. We are thinking about asking them to give us the new Mercedes 600
V12 coupe or sedan. It is a beautiful car. "

ghulet

I guess it's believable, though I don't know too many people who would want to continue to drive a 24 year-old SD roughly 37k miles every year (which, on average, is what it's been driven its entire life so far).

markalananders

I have one 1993 MB 190E with 93000 miles. It has been a great car and I need a second one and don't really have a lot of money to speind on the second car. I looked at a use 190 E with all of the maintenance records. Any idea if there will be a lot of expensive reapirs on this in the future?

markalananders

The car I am looking at is a 1989 with 110,000 miles. I will have it checked out by my mechanic but I am wondering if it is smart to stay away from 190es with this many miles.

Mr_Shiftright

RE: 889K.

Oh, it sounds like a complete crock. Mercedes doesn't give people new Mercedes, believe me, I used to work for them. The man is blowing smoke in your face. Benz has all the 1,000,000 mile cars it needs I'm sure after 116 years of making them.

I suppose an SD could reach that mileage but I doubt it seriously that it could do so on the original powertrain.

You can drive any car in the world 1,000,000 miles if you spend the money on it.

markalananders

I also found a 1979 with 35,000 miles I am considering it. It definately only has 35,000 on it. It is in mint condition has never been painted and the owner has all of the records withe the maintenance dates on them. She wants 12,000 for the car do I want to buy this car or is it so old and outdated that all of the gaskets and rubber will need replacing. What is your thought on lack of airbags.

markalananders

did www.mercedesshop.com move or close down?

Mr_Shiftright

No, it's still there. I just visited it.

Regarding the 450SL, sounds pretty good if the miles are original. But still, as you say, you should check the condition of seals, belts, hoses, tires, etc. to see what has dried out and cracked due to lack of use. If the car is really mint, and the miles are absolutely verifiable, and there aren't too many leaks or bad seals, sounds like a fair price.

But you should have it checked out just as if it were any used car. Also, drive it and be sure you like the characteristics of a 450SL...it isn't for everybody, especially if you are used to more modern cars. And be prepared to feed it plenty of gas.

speedshift

Tsk tsk, Shifty. Always a cynic. Not only do I believe this completely--hook, line and sinker--I think he should hold out for an SSK from the museum. Got 'em over a barrel on this one ;-).

Mr_Shiftright

No, no, not a cynic, but a skeptic. The cynic's mind cannot be changed, but the skeptic says, "Oh, yeah, prove it".

Wonder if Elvis gave him that SD?

speedshift

Is it pink? You might be on to something.

markalananders

what do you think about he 190E 1989 not a classic car so I should use another forum or run away from the car?

ghulet

Mark, I think 190s are pretty decent cars, but any car (especially a European one) is going to need more frequent repairs at that age. If you don't have much to spend on the car or repairs, I'd look at something else. What's the price? I'm assuming it's a 2.6 (I think '89 was the model year the 2.3 wasn't sold in the U.S.).

jrosasmc

The 2.3 was also not sold in the U.S. in 1990.

Mr_Shiftright

2.6 is okay but the earlier 2.3 can be troublesome. The 190 was not Mercedes best effort, although the 16 valve version would be an interesting car to have.

sddlw

190E 2.6 - Wasn't there a redesign sometime around 1989 or 1990 that took car of many of the problems of the earlier generation of 190Es? We owned a 1991 2.6 for a few years. Although it did not have the room and features of an E-class from the same period, and wasn't particularly fast, it seemed to be a nice car and handled fairly well. We also had a 1992 300E at the same time. The 190E cost about 50% of what the E-class cost to maintain.

405SL- Sounds like it is a nice car. But you should probably just count on replacing all of the cooling hoses, brake hoses, belts, bushings, etc. After all, they are likely to be more than 20 years old. Still if the paint and interior are pristine, and if the car was driven regularly or stored properly, it could be a very nice car. Although don't expect it to drive like a modern car.

sfserano

I recently purchased a 1985 500SL European model which is beautiful. I am wondereing what the true value is. It has 173,000 miles all of whcih are from an original owner less 900 I put on the car. It is Anthrcite gray, and in very clean condition with service records, both top. It also has the original european headlights, and smaller bumpers. Any idea on value????

afdeluca

Mr. Shiftright - I posted item 871 over the weekend. Obviously there have been several posts since then, but I would greatly appreciate your input on my questions.

Thanks in advance.

sfserano

I recently purchased a 1985 500SL European model which is beautiful. I am wondereing what the true value is. It has 173,000 miles all of which are from an original owner less 900 I put on the car. It is Anthrcite gray, and in very clean condition with service records, and both tops. It also has the original european headlights, and smaller bumpers. Any idea on value???? Thanks for your help!!

jrosasmc

I suppose the 1994-00 C-Class generation was a much better effort than M-B's 190, right?

sddlw

My impression is that they are nicer cars all round if they were well appointed, 6-cyl models with leather. The stripper 4-cyl engine model just didn't do it for me though. I drove a couple as loaners when having some work done at the dealer that my regular mechanic didn't want to touch. I was pretty underwhelmed. The 4-cyl engine caused a lot of interior enginer noise. The vinyl seats didn't seem as nice as our 190's MB Tex either.

Mr_Shiftright

Okay, please don't shoot the messenger on this one.

It's a bit hard to put a value on the car because it has two distinct marks against it. 1), it is gray market which is unpopular here in the USA, and 2) it has very high miles, which will discourage some buyers.

I would guess around $10,000-12,000 would be the active market, with little chance of appreciation in the future.

magnetophone

Well I have a 1992 190E 2.6 and it's a fantastic car for the price I paid... no reliability issues so far. And it's pretty fast... this was pre mid 1990's fattening, so 170hp on a compact car meant business.

Mr_Shiftright

yes, I think the 2.6 is a much improved model.

jrosasmc

Now the EPA says that diesel exhaust fumes can cause cancer.

magnetophone

Have they tested low-sulfur diesel on a modern engine, or were they inhaling the asspipe of a Dodge Ram dually?

markalananders

thanks for the feedback on buying a 190 2.6

magnetophone

It's a good car...there are parts of the power band where it is breathless, and it handles sort of stodgily, but it's safe and comfortable and attractive looking!

Kirstie_H

I'm looking for physicians (M.D.s or DOs) who are willing to discuss their car collections with a trade magazine. If you fit the bill, please respond with your daytime contact information to jfallon@edmunds.com by Sept. 16, 2002.
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PR Director
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