USED European Luxury Cars (pre 1990)

citroeniste

I want to surprise my son with a new car for law school next year. He’s currently in Graz (Austria) on a Fulbright Scholarship and his flight back for xmas arrives on Dec. 16, so that’s my absolute deadline. His current car is a 1999 Daewoo Leganza, which was all my fault. (Hey, 3/4-scale Guigaro Kensignton Jaguar body and Dr. Ulrich Bez signing off on the engineering, right? And crappy GM engines with timing belts that fail at 50k miles, leading to four months in the shop waiting for warranty parts…)

Unfortunately, with the stockmarket and the economy being where they are, I can’t afford to buy him what I would really want to (and what he deserves) a 2003 New Beetle Turbo S, BMW Mini Cooper S, or Infiniti G35 Coupe.

The three European cars I’ve been considering that I can afford are the Mercedes 300CE, Volvo 780, and Porsche 914-2.0. (I’ve also been looking at a Japanese car he once expressed admiration for, a Subaru SVX, but that’s not really germane to this topic and I haven’t been able to find a good 4x4 one anyway.) For the Mercedes I’d be looking at the SL-engined 3.0L ones. The pluses for the M-B are that I think they still look great, have traction control, and I’m a sucker for twincam sixes. But I’m worried about maintenance and maybe that the car looks too "old" for a 23 year old. The 780 has kind of a Maserati Biturbo look about it, top out at very little money, and I’ve found a wonderful independent Volvo mechanic I’ve dealt with for over a decade not four miles from my house -- my wife has always had Volvos, except for a six-year long interlude with a 1993 VW EuroVan -- but it is a small turbo four (although I’m told a 4.9L Ford V8 fits nicely in there when it breaks) and…well, his mom has almost always had Volvos... The Porsche is more fun, has a manual, and there’s a big 914 specialist about a half hour drive away (Automobile Atlanta), but he’s a tall guy (6’1”, 34” inseam) so I wonder if he’ll fit properly in the little Porsche, and how safe it is in this land of Escalades. Also, he’ll not be living here much longer, and in New Haven he’ll have rust to think about.

I lay all that out for people to critique my decision processes. What would you do in my shoes? Are any of the three cars (or four, if you count the SVX) dogs that should be avoided at any cost? (Ignore radio issues, because I’m going to put a modern CD/MP3 player in for him.) I’ve actually never owned a German car, although my father-in-law had a BMW 2000 (4-door 2002) for two decades until New Jersey road salt ended its life.

There are some other cars I was thinking about; I’ve always liked Alfa 164’s, and Paul Spruell Alfa is supposed to be the place in the SE for them, but I’m scared and my wife would nix something like that anyway.

Thanks,

Burhan

Mr_Shiftright

Since you have such a great shop nearby, Automobile Atlanta, and since this gift is for a young and presumably by this time responsible young man, the Porsche 2.0 leaps out as the only logical choice here.

My reasoning is thus:

The Mercedes, as you say, is an old man's car and can be punishing in upkeep costs should you somehow buy a turkey. The Volvo is just flat out dull and clumsy, at least back then. I'm sure most young guys would hate it. The SVX is an interesting car, but who is going to fix it? Also, parts are expensive, the technology obsolete by this time and the car is not without its problems (correctable, to be sure).

The Porsche 2.0 is the best of the 914s, as it has the benefit of a few years of development over the early 1.7. Also, a tall guy fits in it easily, it has plenty of room. The 914 is also a solid little car, as evidenced by its continued success to this day in SCCA racing. It is also a lot of fun to drive, has a targa top, two trunks, a relatively simply VW engine driving it, and parts are readily available---any part you need, delivered UPS to your house in two days. And most parts are reasonable in price, unless you trash the Porsche transmission, which isn't easy to do.

The downside of the 914 2.0 is that you want to buy the best one possible, since they are not (yet) terribly valuable, and you don't want to be sinking lots of money in a roach of a car. You should be able to find a real beauty for $5,000-8,000 depending on how lucky you are.

Last of all, (phew), only the 914 and the SVX have any chance of future appreciation in value. The Benz and the Volvo will just continue to devalue so 5 years down the road taking a loss on these cars in inevitable. But a 914 or an SVX you can readily sell at any time, should your son tire of the car or should the car prove troublesome.

If I had to rate them in order, it would be:

Porsche 914
SVX
Benz
Volvo

magnetophone

Porsches are cool but even for a 23 year old the insurance will be artificially high. And while the 914 is a good car, but it's not exactly in 2.0 form the epitome of a real Porsche.

The Subaru SVX is a very unique car but the only way I'd recommend one is if you can make friends with a Subaru garage who can handle such a car.

The Volvo 780 is not sporty and while completely fixed would be a nice, fast boulevardier, its engine is of Renault descent (correct me if I am wrong, shiftright). My guess is it's not too much more reliable than an actual Maserati Biturbo, which were the epitome of Maserati's downfall but still pretty awesome cars.

Some alternatives: How about a 1993 era RX-7? A late 80's or early 90's BMW 325i? Or you can go way back in time and get a perfect condition Datsun Z?

Depending on what kind of image he wants to convey is where your answer is. I personally think Mercedes are cool and a 300E wouldn't be so bad. I know several people that age with them and they're not completely uncool. Besides, with a lot of people my age (I'm 22), Volvos and Mercedes are sort of geek chic .

Mr_Shiftright

Of course a 914 is a real Porsche! It has a Porsche 5-speed transmission right out of a 911, Porsche front end from a 911, designed entirely by a Porsche team headed by Butzi Porsche, is a mid-engine targa revving to 7000 rpm, body built by Karmann (same company that built many of the "bathtub" Porsche 356 models) with all wheel disk brake==and it kicked butt in SCCA racing, autocross, rally, slolam and many many international events. It's every inch a real sports car. Insurance isn't a problem because the car is low horsepower, only 91 SAE.

The Volvo 780 shares the engine with the 760 so I'd stay away from that car, you bet.

I still think he'd hate the Benz. Most young people do hate them because their image is so mature and conservative. But of course he knows better than I do ultimately. Good solid car the E class Benzes.

I see the SVX as a money pit for a young man. There's no easy accessible support network. You'll be flatbedding it to get it fixed properly. It's more a hobbyist's car I think, for a car freak who has to have somthing different.

citroeniste

Well, I talked about it with my wife yesterday. She's supportive in general but nixed the 914: "no cars without ABS and airbags!" I was more worried about him taking it to New England and it rusting out, but she does have a point.

(He did have an accident in his first car, a Citroen DS, that probably would have been prevented with ABS. But that was seven years ago.)

She did however suggest "maybe one of those Porsches with the long nose", so I'll have to go 944/968 hunting. She thought the 300CE was a great idea ("like putting him in a classy bank vault"), but wasn't too hot on the 780 Turbo (isn't that old and boxy)?

Another car that I've always liked and I remember him drawing when he was in junior high is the VW Corrado. I don't think the VR6 one fits in the "German cars pre 1990" rubric, though, and I was unimpressed when I test-drove a G60 when they first came out.

The Volvo doesn't have that unreliable Renault-Delorean V6, it's the same turbo four as my wife's old "when the family outgrows the Lotus" 740 Turbo Wagon. Although if I found a really good 780 with a V6 that was having cam problems, I could afford to send it to Converse Engineering for a Ford 302 V8 transplant. (Even top-shape 780s seem to top out at $4k.)

"How about a 1993 era RX-7?"

I thought about that, too, but a nephew of mine already has one. I don't want to stray more off topic, but I was also thinking about a Nissan 300ZX 2+2...

"A late 80's or early 90's BMW 325i?"

That's no fun, his undergrad school parking lots had so many new ones.

The SVX would probably the most interesting one for him. But the only ones I've found for sale are either low-spec FWD (kind of defeats the purpose of a Subaru I think) or one of the early ones with seatbelts that attack you and an internet reputation for tranny problems.

Thanks again,

B

PS: Would there be a more appropriate place for me to discuss this topic?

Mr_Shiftright

TOPIC--If you are going to consider modern cars with air bags and ABS, you might want to go to the Coupes/Convertibles Message Board

I have to dig in my heels here if you don't mind and nix the 944 as yet another expensive proposition for a young man. Nice cars but get ready to suck in your breath if something major goes wrong with one. You can run up a $2,500 tab on a 944 as easy as lunch.

It sounds to me like you and wivey are not on the same page. If safety is primary, you should just go with the Benz and forget about the rest of these quirky cars. Your son can knock a house down with the Mercedes and no other car is going to compete with it for sheer strength.

The Corrado is a pile of trouble waiting ot happen and the RX-7 TT is deadly fast and probably very hard to insure--and no reliability King either.

A Nissan 300ZX is an interesting choice because here we have good luck, safety enough to satisfy wivey, enough penache for the "kid", and reliability that only the Japanese cars can provide. This may, in fact, be the way to go now that we have a clearer idea of what you are trying to accomplish.

Too bad he won't get to experience a real strong 914. Some of the other cars you mentioned are so dreary to drive. Safety and fun sometimes just don't go together. There's a bit of a thrill in educated, calculated risk. And really, no car is "safe", this is such a misconception. Better to view it as "some cars are less dangerous than others". But maybe you already know that, you seem pretty car-savvy.

jrosasmc

May I suggest two great alternatives to what the gentleman is getting at: maybe his son should have something snazzy, yet still reliable enough for his tastes. How about these:

'93 Volvo 850 GLT. Of course, owning one I'm biased towards this particular car. They are really reliable cars, assuming you can keep on top of them. And they were the first fun cars Volvo made in years; it's the DOHC I-5 that does it.

'93 BMW 325i convertible. The last year of the classic E30 ragtops before the company switched over to the more sophisticated E36 chassis. Having test-driven one with my father a number of years ago, I can just say that this car's handling, braking and steering is simply amazing. As Mr. Shiftright said earlier, you have to watched out for cracked cylinder heads on the strong-running 2.5-liter I-6.

magnetophone

a Volvo S70 T5 is one stonking fast car but young guys don't tend to like "sleepers" - cars that look sedate but are really fast. I personally do.

Wow, I don't think I've ever know anyone in America to have started driving on a Citroen. My English cousin had a lumpy Citroen BX for a few years. From about 1975 to 1999 Citroens were such dismal cars.

I know that we're venturing off topic here, but frankly it's not like this message board is happening, so I'll continue

How about a new Mini Cooper? That way you can get him a new car that's really fun. Minis probably have an emasculating quality in America that doesn't exist in other countries (our social domain is really messed up if you ask me).

Some other alternatives: a used 525i from the last body style? 180hp goes a long way in that model. An off-lease Saab 9-3? A Lexus SC300?

speedshift

9-3s loose their resale value so quickly you could probably find a good one abandoned by the side of the road.

starrow68

Don't want to rain on the young guy's parade and getting a car is a big deal at that age but what does the principal in the topic - want?

We helped our daughter get her first wheels when she got employeed out of College. '00 Mustang GT, Laser Red, tan top and interior, she loved it, modded it with exhaust and lowered it, even dragged it some. It got kicked off the track, 13.94 in a vert is not cool without helmet, her boy friend was driving. But after one year she decided it was not practical enough and traded it in on a - Jeep Liberty. Go figure, but now she can haul two dogs which was more important than all the cool. And just to get it back on topic, Mom does let her drive the '71 280SL every once in a while which she appreciates now that her 'hot' car is gone.

Mr_Shiftright

I think if the car is a "gift" you don't ask the principle what he wants---the principle should thank the gifter and then if the principle doesn't like what he got, he can presumably change it for something else---since a gift is given without strings one presumes.

The idea of a new Mini is a great idea, as the car has style, a sense of humor and is loads of fun to drive. Good suggestion!

jrosasmc

Have you driven a new Mini yet?

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, my neighbor has one so I've had it out a couple of times. It's fun--not as much fun an as old Cooper S but certainly fun compared to most modern cars.

The interior styling is "busy" to say the least, quite the fashion statement, but it's very interesting. I'm not sure how it will be to look at day in day out, but the homages to the old Mini are amusing.

But at any rate, you certainly wouldn't think you were driving anything else, so on that level it is successful.

ndance

seems to me it's hard to beat an '87-'93 Mustang 5.0 for cheap vs. something a kid might like vs. reasonably safe vs. cheap to fix.

Sr. Shiftright...it would be interesting if you could call out a few potential scare repairs...since this is a pre '90 German thread we can stick to that...

I'm thinking along the lines of Quattro or 944 clutches (jeez, how many hours in the book is that?). I seem to remember reading some ungodly amount of labor built into head removal for an Ur-Quattro. How about engine rebuilds on 16V Mercedes or early M3?

I love this kind of stuff.

citroeniste

"The Corrado is a pile of trouble waiting ot happen"

That's sad to hear. I've always liked the styling and loved the chassis poise. I hated the G60 engine, but the mags all raved about the VR6 in the SLC.

"and the RX-7 TT is deadly fast and probably very hard to insure--and no reliability King either."

And he'd never want something a cousin got new eight years ago anyway.

"Too bad he won't get to experience a real strong 914. Some of the other cars you mentioned are so dreary to drive."

I'm working on her! We're going to Automobile Atlanta tomorrow. (I know could save money in the short run by going private, but I'd rather get a 914 reconditioned by experts and hopefully save in the long run.)

I'm absolutely positive I could win this one if there was a way to safely retrofit ABS onto a 914. Airbags are nice, but he'd probably put a 4-point harness in a 914 anyway for autocrossing, so that's a much lesser concern.

"And really, no car is "safe", this is such a misconception."

Thanks for the compliment, but I'm really just a guy who reads too many magazines.

I agree with you about the "less dangerous" thing, but my wife recently took a severe hit in her Volvo S80, and she probably would've been seriously hurt in a less safe car. So safety is uppermost in her mind at this point.

"'93 Volvo 850 GLT."

My wife had an 850 T5 Wagon, so that's pretty much out. Nice car though, if you Lexol'ed the leather biweekly. If the residuals had made sense, she probably would still have it. (That was our first and last leasing experience.)

"seems to me it's hard to beat an '87-'93 Mustang 5.0"

A Mustang is interesting but not to his taste. He's a big design guy, so a really nice interior is key. Straight-line speed has never been something he needed.

A Saab 9-3 is a little to GM-y. After all the problems we had with the GM Esotec four in his Leganza, I don't want to risk it. A Lexus SC300 I hadn't thought of. Will have to check them out.

As for the BMW Mini Cooper S, I would love to get him one and he'd definitely love to have one. Maybe I even owe him one because my daughter got a New Beetle when she started med school. But school expenses (one daughter in med school, a son about to start law school, and my youngest daughter in college) means that even after financial aid I will have to pay about $80k next year for their futures. So a $23k car is out of the question. Also, as a Muslim I can't take out interest-bearing loans. That limits what I can spend. So unfortunately that's out. Now, when my daughter finishes med school I might just trade in my 1997 Infinti Q45 on one for me...

Thanks to all of you,

Burhan

PS: About his Citroen DS. It's actually still in my garage. We fixed the body-work together and I drive it every couple weeks to make sure those expensive Michelin X's don't flat-spot and the complex hydropneumatics don't spring leaks. But it's no daily driver, and after his accident he learned that.

Mr_Shiftright

I doubt you could retrofit an air bag to a 914. I mean, you COULD, given enough money, you can do just about ANYTHING to a car, but I can't think of any technician crazy enough to accept the liability for such a conversion.

Actually, it's the seat belts that really save lives. In most common accidents, air bags account for very little extra percentage of life-saving. Of course, if it's YOUR life, 1% is great!

Race cars don't have air bags and drivers survive incredible accidents in them. They are often light cars, too, just build very strong. The 914 is a strong car for its size, and you have a kind of built-in roll bar with the targa. But sure, you get hit by a Southern Pacific locomotive, it's got to hurt. You could break your glasses and everything.

magnetophone

I don't understand... it seems what you're looking for is heavily based on image. Who cares if their cousin got it eight years ago? It's still a good car. I guess I don't come from a family like that but a good car is a good car. My millionaire uncle drives a Toyota, and my cousin who barely makes $40K a year has a BMW.

I think a little bit of image needs to be sacrificed for a good alternative. It seems like a Lexus SC300 is your best bet because it's reliable enough, affordable to buy outright, and is safe and fast. It also looks good and is unique enough to ensure that someone else doesn't have it.

jrosasmc

Are there any weak points to watch out for when looking at the last BMW E30 3-Series ragtops ('92-'93)? My dad's thinking about purchasing a 325i from that era.

ghulet

The '92 convertible is actually based on the old (E36) series body, the 'new' convertible didn't debut til model year '93 (despite the fact that the coupes and sedans were all new for model year '92).

citroeniste

Shiftright, I think I wasn't clear above. I don't really care about the airbag, because my gut feeling is that he'd upgrade the safety-factor by installing 4-point belts instead of the belts Porsche sold them with. All the better to autocross on the weekends or do the other kinds of fun things that I did when I had a light, well-balanced car at his age.

However, if sensors could be installed to modulate the brakes more rapidly than a human foot can in case of lockup, i.e. ABS, I know that a 914 would win out.

And magnetophone, you're right, image does play a big part in my decision. What I neglected to mention is that the nephew of mine who got the RX-7 long ago still haves it and loves it. I think it has 150k miles on it. (People in my family tend to buy nice cars and keep them forever, because we have to pay for them up-front.) We're a close-knit family so if he wanted that kind of speed fix he could just drive that one. The other point is that there are so many interesting cars out there, that why limit yourself to cars you've already owned or that someone close to you has already owned? (Unless that's what you really, really want.)

At any rate, after our trip to the 914 specialist (postponed until Friday after Turkey Day) the picture will be clearer. Interestingly, they also have a 1990 300CE with low miles for sale.....

B

Mr_Shiftright

You know, I have never read any concrete, solid, convincing data that proves ABS actually makes a car any safer in terms of human life. One reason might be that most people don't use it properly. You are supposed to slam on the brakes---if you modulate them, you defeat the ABS and actually make the car take longer to stop.

I think ABS is a weak deciding factor in a car choice unless the two cars were equal in every other way.

jrosasmc

I came across a just-published book in Borders yesterday called "Ultimate BMW Buyers Guide." In this book, it gives every detail and spec of all modern BMWs sold in the U.S., starting with the 1602 of '66 and going all the way to the current E46 3-Series. The comments made by the author and numerous owners he interviewed for the chapters tell a lot about old '60s and '70s Bimmers: They really need a lot of time, money and maintenance to keep running on a daily basis! I read stories about early 530i's and their problems with thermal reactors and emissions, and 320i's with their rust problems and lackluster performance. Maybe Mr. Shiftright can attest to this.

ndance

I can't see bothering with any older cars except for a few models...I'm thinking 3.0CS's, those early V8 sports cars, I guess maybe M1's (if you can afford to). I'd rather have a sorted out 510 than a 2002 (prettier, cheaper mechanicals). Any model from the 80's strikes me as a financial sinkhole...now that I'm on a roll I suppose I'm pro-desirable car and pro-cheap parts (a Shelby Mustang is a great example, a ZL1 Camaro even better)...so what do I know from BMW's.

ABS...the single case I can see for owning it is as follows:
1) You live somewhere with slippery streets (in the Sierra foothills, we get *seriously* slick snow).
2) Someone who tends to jump on the brakes and stays there, come whatever. Some guys do this...most women. Car doesn't stop? push harder.

Mechanically I suppose it's one more thing that drives car repair out of the shadetree or independent garage and towards the dealerships. This stuff should be interesting to keep going in a dozen or more years. I don't think the computers are (generally) at fault in terms of long term issues, but these complex electro-mechanical systems...sensors, servos, etc. are going to be a PITA.

Mr_Shiftright

I think you will see more and more mass produced, not-so-special cars just thrown away when the repair estimate exceeds the value of the automobile. This is commonly when TVs and old espresso machines are junked, so I don't see why it should be any different with cars. Your $5,000 car needs $8,000 in repairs, and there is another $5,000 car like yours just waiting on the used car market, so what's the common sense thing to do? "Hello, Acme Wrecking?"

lemko

...the last time you've had your TV repaired? I haven't seen a TV repairman since the early 1970s when some sets still had vacuum tubes. I remember seeing my Dad take some tubes out of the set to test on a special test bench in the local department store's electronic section.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes but you don't drive your TV over bumps in rainstorms or heatwaves, etc etc. The computer circuitry in a car is in a very hostile envivronment. And, when the TV does go screwy, you just toss it, because the labor rates for repair exceed the value of the machine itself.

ndance

TV's and cars is price. Above some threshold of pain lies things you fix rather than pitch and (unfortunately for some) lies things you negotiate on for price.

I suppose if we were all smart, we'd just go out and buy the Jihad(tm) model Toyota truck every 5-10 years and throw it away when used up. Save your money for things of lasting value (maybe Haynes flutes and beachfront property).

jrosasmc

Now since the late '80s Mercedes 300SE sedans have 6-cylinder engines in them, instead of big costly V-8s, they're still cheaper long-term, I'm assuming?

Mr_Shiftright

Same problem. A Mercedes 300E from the late 80s in "fair" condition is worth maybe $4,500. So if your car has a couple dents, one window doesn't work, the windshield is cracked and you need 4 tires, what do you think is going to happen when the tranmission goes out? Do the math.

chris396

I do this. I drive a '95 Geo Metro that I paid $500 for. It has 112,000 miles on it and I think I can get another 100,000. I'd rather spend real money on classics and fun cars. Of course it helps that I'm only ten minutes from work.

jrosasmc

Is it true that the generation of Audi 80/90s introduced for 1988 (the 4000 replacements) were the first production cars to feature fully-galvanized body panels for rust resistance? To this day, I have yet to see an Audi from the late '80s or early '90s with body rust. However, I still see a few Saabs and Volvos from that vintage with some rust on them; I'm from Vermont, so I should know.

amazon

Yes, that's true. Audi made a big marketing campaign overseas around this. They also have a thicker zink coating than most other brands. They also coated both sides of the sheet metal, all around the car (even the roof). Other cars didn't (and in think, still don't) do this.

jrosasmc

Are you from the Northeast as well?

amazon

No. I'm a Swede living in Central Ohio.

jrosasmc

Does every single 1980s Mercedes-Benz model, I mean every one from the 300D to the 380SL to the 420SEL, start in second gear if so equipped with the automatic tranny?

jrct9454

This is a model-by-model thing. I can only speak to the cars we owned, but our '84 and '86 190s were first-gear starters, as was our '81 300SD. Our '89 260E started in second.

Generally, and this is a generality with exceptions, the cars that needed "help" with fuel consumption were the ones in the '80s that started in second gear - mostly gasoline cars in the larger bodies. A second-gear start helped them in the EPA fuel economy test.

bhill2

Your statement "the cars that needed "help" with fuel consumption were the ones in the '80s that started in second gear - mostly gasoline cars in the larger bodies" may in general be right, but my '85 380SE is a first-gear starter. Of course, the 380 series was Mercedes' attempt to respond to the fuel crisis, so they may have felt that they were successful enough with that engine to allow a first-gear start. The fact that it only had 155 hp may have contributed to that decision too.

jrosasmc

I forgot to tell you this, and believe me, it's so unreal: My old high school bio teacher's '88 Audi 5000 S Quattro just hit 295k miles! He told me this before the basketball game he was scheduled to coach began. For a car that had a terrible reputation for quality, this is unbelievable and impressive. To be honest, I've never seen an Audi 5000 with 200k miles, let alone even 140k. My teacher must be doing something to keep this 5000 running to that high mileage (he's had it since it was new as well).

magnetophone

Not really. The Audi reliability issues hit the early 5000's more than the later ones. 295K is a stretch but I do see newer vintage ones getting along okay.

jrosasmc

I have an opportunity to acquire an '88 VW Quantum Syncro station wagon from a mechanic friend of mine. The only trouble is, I think it needs to be restored from the dead, since it hasn't been driven in about 4 1/2 years.

If I do decide to take the bait and try to get this old VW running again, what should I expect? How good were the Quantums in their day, and did you ever own one?

Mr_Shiftright

I did own a Quantum but not a 4WD as I recall, and it was a pretty good car.

Personally I don't think it's worth restoring "from the dead"...you should just go out and buy a "live" one for not much money and save yourself the hassle.

Maybe if he gave it to you that might be worth the trouble. This is a $2,000 car in GREAT condition, so non-running it is virtually worthless.

jrosasmc

He is trying to give this car to me.

Mr_Shiftright

Well, then, can you bring it up to excellent condition inside and out for $2,000?

jrosasmc

Most, if not all, Mercedes products from the late '60s have the Bosch D-Jetronic system in their engines from what I've seen. How reliable are these, anyway? Is it a service-and-forget-about-it system like today's injections?

argent

The D-Jetronic was Bosch's first-generation electronic injection, which was also used on Volkswagens and Porsches during that period. See http://retro.co.za/efi/d-jet.html or http://www.914fan.net/djet.html for info and a troubleshooting guide for it.

amazon

My father drove the early 70's Volvos as police cars. He told me that when the police radio was in use, the car would run very poorly. This happened mainly on the '70-'73 140 with FI. In 74, they went to K-Jetronic. I understand that is a semi- mechanical system. Can someone shed more light on this (K- vs D- Jetronic)?

Mr_Shiftright

I think K is called CIS, Porsche also went to this and from all reports it's a lot better than J. The 144 Volvos with J had a lot of flat spots, erratic idle, all kinds of glitches, but they did keep going. CIS was just a lot smoother and more efficient, and easier to work on and diagnose. I think vacuum leaks and that electro-mechanical throttle plate thingie on the air horn were the big problems. The black box worked okay and I don't recall the injectors being a problem aside from rusting now and then.

amazon

I do recall that the K-Jetronic was a continuous injection system. Basically, the injectors were continuously spraying the fuel into the engine, vs. "squirting" the fuel like most other systems.

Mr_Shiftright

You got a much better throttle response with CIS. The fuel amount would vary infinitely with vacuum I believe, measured through a fuel distributor.

Another pain in the neck I forgot about the older J system was the triggering points inside the distributor that were always fouling up. They would trigger 2 injectors at a time, pulsed by I guess a little cam in the distributor. These points would get dirty and if you tried to clean them with anything abrasive, as if they were ignition points, you immediately ruined them.

starrow68

the '71 280 SL after this board closes? I haven't noted any specific boards and it isn't something you see every day. Although there is one for sale here locally, I'd never seen blue leather before. White body, with blue top, interesting, like the burgundy better.