USED European Luxury Cars (pre 1990)

visionxp

you're exactly right about the tops.

Mr_Shiftright thankx.

Mr_Shiftright

Actually, if the 318 and 325 tops are the same, then the problem may still exist with the 318s, since the problem is not electrical but a mechanical jamming due to wear and stress caused by poor engineering of that mechanism. This got solved in the early 90s but I don't recall which year exactly.

visionxp

....but im not interested in the covertibles anyway so that doesnt affect me at all:)

thanx again

Mr_Shiftright

If the engine runs a bit rough or idles badly, have a compression test done. You can get a cracked cylinder head on these 3-series cars if they are old enough and have high miles.

jrosasmc

Why is it that every '80s Mercedes I've driven with automatic always seems to start off in second gear? It's an annoying nuisance.

Mr_Shiftright

You're supposed to step hard on the gas. Mercedes aren't meant to be driven sedately I think is the problem. They aren't driven properly in the US. These cars are built to be driven hard and agressively but they are babied like they were delicate little machines or something.

When I was working for Benz, we had problems with people who simply would not rev up the engines. So the plugs would foul from all this putt-putting around town. I would demonstrate to friends how to drive their Benz and they would freak out.

So I gave up. People still won't believe this today. They need to travel to Germany and see how these cars work I think. Benzes are built to drive all day long at very high rpm, and they have the brakes and handling to back up that type of driving.

burdawg

If it's a 4 speed, then it will start in 2nd gear. Shifty is right, you have to floor it (notice the switch under the accelerator pedal) to get a 1st gear start, or put it in L and then upshift to S when needed. S stands for slope, not second as many people think, and it will go right through 2nd to 3rd if you let up on it. When I drive our old 280SE it's common to put it in S range when getting on the freeway and hold it in 3rd gear to 65-70mph or so before shifting to 4th. It will rev to 4300rpm or so, but the 2.8 doesn't come alive until about 2000rpm or so. The redline is 6400 (if I remember right), and at 4000 plus it really sounds like your stressing the engine, but your not.
The older V8's (4.5L, 6.9L) had three speeds and act differently.

magnetophone

I'm confused. My 2.6 starts in 1st, right?

ghulet

....I'm pretty sure all U.S. automatic Mercedes started in second gear until the early or mid '90s. Unless they changed transmissions midstream during the 190's production, it's probably the same. I believe Mercedes started this with the first 380SELs that came here (late 1980) in order to improve gas mileage.

I do remember my mom complaining that her 300E was slow (never mind that it was one of the quickest and fastest sedans made in the late '80s). She didn't believe me when I told her that part of the problem was that it starts in second gear, so it doesn't utilize much of its torque. I also demonstrated that you have to really punch the gas (which isn't terribly easy, as the throttle is a bit stiff) to get it to start in first; it makes a lot of difference.

jrct9454

...including the W201 190s, always started in 1st. Unfortunately, I can't say that is true for the 6 cyl 201s. Certainly, our W 124 300E 2.6 '89 model year started in 2nd. I just got in the habit of shifting into 1st while waiting at a light, and then performing a manual upshift to second, and letting it do its thing after that.

And yes, this was/is a royal pain, thankfully no longer an issue with the newer models...

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, most people just shift into first and then manually go into second. It's kinda fun.

lancerfixer

Yeah, and some of us still use a clutch pedal in so doing... :-P

ghulet

I just saw a really nice looking '83 380SEL for sale in the local rag, for $3500. I'd really like a big Benz sedan, even if it is old. That price is pretty good (though there's also an '89 420SEL for $4900 in the same paper, and it has like 45 more horsepower than that 380).

burdawg

Personally I'd go for the 420, but mileage on either of these would be a big factor.

starrow68

The 280SL we got from the inlaws was driven 29 years my wifes mother. However, they lived overseas for a couple years and she got to see how cars are driven in Germany before buying it. She always shifted the automatic, like a stick, down to '2' at lights and then it would start in first with what I think is a pretty hard shift into 2nd, then manual up to '3' and on to '4' at freeway speeds. I can easily lay a patch turning left if I want, right turns are tight enough I don't try there. Since that was what the expectation was, that's how my wife told me to drive it when it came our way, lots of fun. But as has been mentioned, it gets up over 4k rpms really quick.

magnetophone

Well now that I know this, driving's suddenly been a lot more fun. I can't believe I own a car for over a year and don't know this! LOL

Mr_Shiftright

You can also get a different ratio for the differential. They made 2 or 3 options. But even with the "high" rear end, the engine is busy at highway speeds.

starrow68

Question on how to find out gear ratio? Any way to tell by looking at something? Will have to look at paperwork but that will probably be a few days. Thanks for any input.

Mr_Shiftright

Just count the teeth in both ring and pinion and divide.

starrow68

I'm sure that is technically correct but since I don't own a wrench I'm not sure it provides what I had in mind. You see there are some of us who have injured ourselves with something as simple as a screwdriver and the concept of a wrench might lead to mayhem.

amazon

If you don't have a limited slip diff, you can jack your car up so you lift one of the rear wheels off the ground. Then, have someone turn that wheel 10 turns. Have someone count how many rotations the drive shaft turned. Divide that number by 5, and there you have it. If you do have a limited slip diff, then you'd have to lift both wheels off the ground, and divide by 10.

jrct9454

Starrow, post the model and year of the car, and assuming it is an original USA model [not a gray market car] and unmodified, I can look it up for you.

No wrenches required...

visionxp

i read that post that says how to shift manually on an auto.

i've tried that myself on my car(Honda) ... mine has almost the same type i guess with 1,2,D3,D4.
however im wondering if that adds any stress to the transmission given the fact that you have to go through the gears every single time you stop at a light.
wont that reduce the life of your transmission?

oh and another question ... are you supposed to take your foot of the gas when you shift or is that unnecessary?

jrct9454

Whether you do the shifting yourself, or the transmission does it, what's the difference? First gear gets used more often, but that is hardly a wear issue.

You can keep your foot down, or lift, either way...keeping it down tends to make things smoother.

visionxp

well from my understanding automatic trannys are not made to be used as stick shifts so i tend to believe that manual shifting causes a lot more stress to the transmission than just droping it in D and driving like that.

ghulet

...today (in Chicago), I saw a 126-series 280SEL (or at least it was so labeled). It had the European hubcaps rather than alloys; these cars are fairly rare (roughly 17000 built 1979-84), but none were sold here, so we don't see them too often. It was in a kind of greenish gold color, and in great condition.

The 280 engine at the time made 185hp, roughly the same as the U.S. contemporary 500SEL.

burdawg

I see those from time to time. Yes, the European engine is tuned different (offset Woodruff keys are available for cam timing) which was true even in the old 116 body cars. Even though, it will lack the low end grunt of the V8 and won't have as high of a top end speed.

jrosasmc

I had an opportunity to sit inside an '89 Porsche 911 Carrera at a used car dealership not too long ago. First thing I did when I started it up was try out the a/c. Man, was that unit weak; I couldn't even feel the air! Did Porsche really make that a/c weak, even in the late '80s?

Mr_Shiftright

It should be okay in 1989. Probably a badly maintained unit. They also take a little while to cool the car, you have to drive it a bit.

ghulet

...but the a/c on my mom's 944 worked fine as far as cooling is concerned, though the compressor and/or condenser have been replaced several times at this point, some sixteen years into its life.

dmac8

Aside from the general condition, maintenance history etc, are there any key guidelines, items to look for etc., when shopping for one of these cars?

I bought a 1979 240D, new, and aside from the power, it was a great car. Living in California, I see a number of these in remarkable condition and am tempted to get one, for nostalgic reasons, as well as a third car.

Advice appreciated.

Thanks

ndance

...for a car I'd like to have one of.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1871751989

Ya wanna make a bet on the iron oxide content?

magnetophone

Probably pretty high, but if it's been mostly in Texas, it's probably not as bad as you think.

Mr_Shiftright

A money pit. The bid price is already high enough for the car. The 3.0s are terrible rust buckets and this car looks like it has the disease. Being a Euro car almost makes this certain.

But.... Even if it were straight, you can buy 'em nice for $10K-12K all restored, and you can't make this car that nice even if someone gave it to you for free.

Looks like a parts car or perhaps one you should have examined very very carefully before making a bid.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd recommend going for a 300 turbo diesel. The regular 240D and 300D are just too slow for modern traffic conditions.

Other than that, they are pretty sturdy cars, witht he usual substandard German a/c and climate control systems (play with all the knobs and levers before you buy a 300SD). Also choose a car with service records, so you know you aren't getting a fouled-up diesel fuel system. Meticulous filter changes and diesel fuel additives are essential for these cars.

dmac8

Thanks for the comments Mr. S. I'm drawn to the 240D because a neighbour has a pristine version that could probably be purchased. However, your advice on power is valid. When I purchased my '79, I think speed limits were 55 and pretty rigorously enforced. Recently, about 5am on the 101 freeway near dowtown LA, I was passed by an empty Metra bus, I was doing 85mph!

A great many of the 300sd's and 300 td's, have upwards of 175,000 miles with the seller touting vaunted durability that negates these miles. However, I'd agree with you that maintenance is everything. I also agree that records have to be part of the deal. So, after playing with all of the knobs, what components are likely to have been replaced during a well maintained 175K?

Thanks again.

jrosasmc

Yeah, but what's going to happen to today's BMWs and Benzes ten years down the road? Their highly complex systems and engines will probably not be worth fixing, resale values will plummet, and my guess is that you either drive them or junk them.

Mr_Shiftright

Well at 175K any car is really a write-off. Anything can happen at those miles, maintained car or not. A 175K has, in reality, no value, but if they look good and run well, people will pay for one---usually more than they should.

I paid $1,200 for my pristine 300D with 211,000 miles on it at the time. It needed an a/c compressor, shocks, a valve adjustment and a window regulator. That was about it.

burdawg

Some time ago you did a post concerning the different part #'s for cruise control amps for 116 and 126 body cars. The amp on my 280SE had been bad for some time and I didn't replace it since I hardly used it and didn't want to pay the cost of a rebuilt (about $250) or new ($500+) amp. Recently, I bought a new one from someone on Ebay for $125. It works fine and was in the original box, those aren't issues. I'm wondering what model this unit was made for. It's part #005-545-1232.
I found the # on a rebuilders website but it doesn't reference which model it's for, only says that the core value is $10 for old units. Any idea?

Mr_Shiftright

Gee, no burdawg, you have me scratching my head on that one. If it's an M-B part # on the box, a dealer can cross reference it for you I believe. My works most of the time, so I let it be (it seems to take abuot 1/2 hour to warm up then it's fine all day). I have a W123 chassis

dmac8

Mr. S, thanks again for the comments. I'm sure there is a significant emotional component invested in these old diesels, and I'm no different. However, I agree that its probably folly to approach one of these high milers without flinty eyed vision. Several people list 300dt's in Auto Trader, in the LA vicinity, for up to $7,000 and the lowest mileage car has 100k! There must be some significant level of demand. Having said that, what once may have seemed boxy, is now, imho, a relatively timeless design. But I appreciate the comments on this board and will try to be diligent in any purchase.

Thanks

burdawg

Shifty,
It looks like that # I gave you is a generic replacement for any of the earlier cars that have an 8 pin connectored (sp?) amp.
It works fine, with only minor oscillation (1-2mph) at certain speeds. Certainly no worse than the original amp was.

Mr_Shiftright

That's pretty good. I could live with that. The special quirk mine has is that it will sometimes disengage under heavy load (hill climb).

bhill2

Shifty,

I sometimes have a similar problem (disengaging under heavy load) with the cruise control in my '85 380SE. Then it doesn't want to work again until I have stopped the engine and restarted (turing the crise control 'off' at the stalk doesn't do it). Any idea what is going on?

Mr_Shiftright

Nah, must be engine vacuum related, right? Like you, it never bothered me enough to get involved with it. You can hardly ever use cruise control in California anymore anyway.

bhill2

it's a faithful old crock, and it's earned the right to have a few idiosyncrasies. You're pretty much right about California too, but I can still use it when I take the 118 across the north end of the San Fernando Valley in off-peak hours (which is about 2 hours a day).

Mr_Shiftright

Man, I'm telling you, this 300D is amazing. It's just approaching 240,000 miles and the car looks and runs like a 2 or 3 year old used car. The clock, a/c, power windows, sunroof, everything works on the car. And I haven't waxed it in 2 years either and I hope I never do.

bhill2

I am about ready to request that I be buried in my 380SE. It is looking at the back end of 235,000 miles and except for the key lock on the driver's door everything still works perfectly. Oh, the climate control system is becoming progressively less able to maintain a constant temperature, but it never was much good at it anyway, and the A/C would still allow you to hang meat in there if you wanted to.

ndance

....actually I just wanted to make post #1000.

Aaaaaah, that's better.

speedshift

All my 300D needs is a smallblock every 100k or so ;-).