USED European Luxury Cars (pre 1990)

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Comments

  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    For some reason this reminds me of a rear-end shop I heard of called The Car Proctologist.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well it is moderately rare but not sensationally valuable or highly sought after, as the bidding reflects. The reserve must have been realistic enough, and the bidding is approaching the car's true market value. I think it is a very nice car but perhaps the gentleman is touting it a bit too much, as if it were a vintage racing Ferrari or something.

    I would certainly check on the car's authenticity and have it carefully examined for corrosion, body repairs, mechanical soundness and European monkey-business. These cars are rust-traps so you got to be cautious and meticulous in purchasing.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    Eric Gillin, a staff reporter for TheStreet.com, is doing a story about the luxury used car market and is looking to talk to people who have recently bought a used luxury car.

    Feel free to email Eric.Gillin@thestreet.com with your comments or contact information. Thanks!

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  • popkwizzpopkwizz Member Posts: 17
    At the low end of the money chain, I just bought a 190E 2.3, '86, 130k, dry engine, icy new a/c, quiet, MB tex ok, all power works, manual seats, automatic seems tight enough (no stump pulling), light and comfortable to drive. Silver/metallic paint is faded out. $2000. Keep the fluids fresh and drive it until it dies, which may be another 100k. My '84 318i finally bit the dust after 280k miles and I needed a quick replacement. After 2 320s and a quite durable 318, I'm done with BMW. Oh, I bought an '86 300E last December. Great car. 60k miles on it. I expected to put some money into it. Paid 8k and have put plug wires, radiator and muffler on it. There are so many 300s and 190s on the streets here I really don't need a referral to their durability and popularity.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    190s are cheap for a reason, however, while 300Es are nearly 2X the price. The 190 is a lesser car with a lesser reputation, so that's why you can get them for $2,000.

    Still, for basic transportation, any good running Benz is worth $2K. Just don't put any money in it.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    You mentioned a long time ago that you used to work for Mercedes-Benz North America (MBNA). Do you know about the history of how the cars first got to the States, starting with Max Hoffman's first imports in 1951? I just read in a book about Studebaker that Daimler-Benz had contracted with that company to sell the cars in America. This was after the German executives had grown disenchanted with Hoffman's practices. On another interesting note, the book mentioned that the first Mercedes cars sold here (1952-58) basically weren't suited for American driving conditions and habits. Any comments?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Can't argue with the books. Sounds about right to me on all counts.
  • lancerfixerlancerfixer Member Posts: 1,284
    Got a question for you--

    Local third-rate used car lot has an '86 190E 2.3.
    Body's in really good shape, interior is good (I think it's MB-TEX) with the exception of a cracked dash. 180k miles.

    Everything works except the sunroof which is missing a switch. There's a small exhaust leak and the battery is shot. Other than that it's mechanically sound. They're asking $1,750.
    So. For a run around town car, whaddya think? What issues should I be looking for?

    TIA.
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    I know you didn't ask me the question, but since I shopped for a 190E, I can say that the 2.6 engine is better than the 2.3 which is not based on the same family as the 2.6 (which is just a smaller version of the venerable 3.0).

    If the engine's good and the transmission's good, offer like $1,300 cash and then run! People turn weak when they see you have it in cash.
  • lancerfixerlancerfixer Member Posts: 1,284
    Yeah, I've picked up that the 2.6 is a stronger motor, but this isn't a case where I'm shopping specifically for a Mercedes, just a really cheap car that would be safe for the occupant of a child seat (this car wouldn't be for me but a coworker with a young granddaughter. She's going to buy it for her son who, for whatever reason, can't afford a second car but needs one. I've been sent on a mission to find one.)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well, lance, given the situation of the owner, I don't think this car would be a good idea. First strike is that it was a known problem car from Day One (hence all the upgrades and improvements on later models); Strike two, it has a humungous number of miles on it, and Strike Three, a small Mercedes costs just as much to fix per hour as a large one.

    This person needs a Toyota Corolla, BADLY, I think.

    Frankly, I just see a classic Money Pit happening here, with no good side to the argument that I can pull out of the hat.

    If they MUST have a cheap Benz from the 80s, let it be either a 2.6 or a 300 diesel or turbo diesel.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...a W201 MB from this era is no safer a package than any modern used Japanese car that would be 7 years younger, easier to fix, and cheaper to run. And I've owned 14 MBs, the most recent one only 2 weeks old [an '02 C240 that had a great price tag thanks to year-end incentives]...but I've also owned a like number of Toyotas, and for the intended use, your suggestion hits the bullseye.
  • lancerfixerlancerfixer Member Posts: 1,284
    Her big thing was "safety with a very small purchase price." Around here any Toyota or Honda at that price point would be so old and rusted (though still running like a champ) there'd be nowhere to anchor the car seat to. I advised her of higher maintenence costs (though the local Euro joint where I also bring my Volvo to only charges $60 for labor...I'm sure that's a big swing from Bay Area prices, and about the same as any other indie shop around here) but she didn't seem TOO concerned. Thanks for the advice. I agree that an older Camry or something would be ideal, but a good example fetches a pretty good premium around here.
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    How about an early 90's Lexus ES250? Or possibly a Volvo 240?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah, Lance but just because a shop fixes Volvos doesn't mean they know the first thing about a Benz unless they've had the special training.

    A Volvo 240 wouldn't be a bad idea actually. They are fairly simple unsophisticated cars that can take a beating. Not cheap to fix, but certainly less complex than a Benz would be from that era.

    I agree that anything that cheap and Japanese is a dead horse already.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Now would a comparable Volvo 850 of that era also be less complex than Benzes or BMWs?
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    I think the BMW would be simpler than the Volvo - especially a 318i or 325i which are existing designs... normally aspirated, fairly reliable. A Benz is always complicated. The Volvo's 5-cylinder engine as well as a host of unshared parts makes it not the best choice for repairs. A 240 is much simpler and has a huge parts availability.
  • lancerfixerlancerfixer Member Posts: 1,284
    "Yeah, Lance but just because a shop fixes Volvos doesn't mean they know the first thing about a Benz unless they've had the special training."

    Geez, Shifty, it's a Mercedes, not a Boeing.

    This place knows a thing or two about Benzes. It's Volvos they do on the side. Let's put it this way: Last time I was in there for brakes, the other bays were taken up by an S320, a Jag XJ6, A Ferrari 328, and (inexplicably) a Jetta. They're knowledgeable.

    As well, in this area there are precisely two 240s for sale...both '91s, and both out of the target price range. Trust me, I push the Swedish iron first, and if that's rejected I go for the secondaries...I figured you'd know that by now.
    There is, however, an '88 180k mile Volvo 740 non-turbo for sale near here...don't know what the asking price is, though.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    ...it doesn't sound like there is too great a selection of cheap used cars near you. I'd definitely advise having the Benz looked at by a competent mechanic. If safety and less than $2k are the main criteria, the 190 might not be the worst car out there, but if he's too broke to afford a second car to begin with, I don't think a sixteen year-old Mercedes is the best way to go; first time it needs work, it's going to be left sitting and unused.

    I certainly wouldn't advise anyone of limited means to look for a BMW of the same era, either. I think even the 3s are problematic, I'd sooner buy a 190E 2.3. Yes, 180k is a lot of miles, but as we all know, Mercedes can go for the long haul (mom's 300E has 325k on it as we speak, on the original engine and transmission).

    FWIW, I think an old Honda or Toyota would be OK. The rust issues, while they can be serious, I think have been greatly exaggerated here. I just bought an '87 Accord for $500, it does have some body rust, but is still quiet, smooth and solid in general. I'm sure he can find a decent '80s Accord or Camry for less than $2k. Stick the child seat in the middle of the rear seat, done.

    What about a Taurus? They're big, safe and cheap. There are hundreds of Tauri and Sables under $2k around here.
  • lancerfixerlancerfixer Member Posts: 1,284
    Might well go that route. I really don't know the circumstances behind this guy's economics: I work with his mother, and she's playing the part of concerned grandparent. Apparently it's a one car household now. I agree an older Taurus wouldn't be bad (at least cheaper to fix when it breaks, and it will) but I know that a Benz's structural integrity in a crash is legendary. That's her (and therefore my) primary concern.
  • popkwizzpopkwizz Member Posts: 17
    It's very difficult to objectively comment on this used-car problem and what to do. I had $2000 in the bank when my 318i finally gave out. Anticipating this event, I have been looking at 190Es (my wife is very small) for the past 6 months and I've seen some wrecks and a few that I would have bought from a very good mechanic if I had had the $3500 on hand. They do have a reputation but the 300E is still out of reach for a guy that has a kid in private school and whose rent is probably twice that of most of the readers' here mortgages (Mr Shift would know something of this, living in the Bay Area). My self-advice on this matter of used cars is to be ahead of the game if possible and make sure I have a cushion to absorb those pop-up costs. Mr Shift will agree that if he were to spend about an hour driving around the Oakland hills he would see no less than 10 to 20 190Es in excellent condition. This, to me, is a testament to their popularity and durability. As I've mentioned above, I've been looking at 190s and I had to find a replacement for the 318i like 'right now!' and I had 2 grand in the bank. As luck would have it, I saw an older one('86), with a few minor dents, on the street with a dealer plate on it. I found the dealer (a wholesaler) and took it for a drive and found everything to be in very good order, considering some of the 190s I looked at for twice the price. This was a day before the clutch went out on the 318i. Despite its reputation, I prefered to take a chance on this 190E versus anything else for 2 grand. I figure if I have to throw a grand into it over the next year I'm still ok. By the way, an indication of the value of older 3 series BMWs: I had to give away an 84 318i; salvage companies ask you to pay them to take them off your hands; I paid a salvage company 25 dollars to pick up my 79 320 that finally croaked. This all in the past 2 weeks--2 old bimmers. Older 3 series have no value to smaller used parts shops. Finally, my wife is not the best driver on the planet, she parks in a lot that has a problem with theft and she's already been backed into with a resulting dent. Under the circumstances I'm happy that I was able buy this car on short notice and be comfortable about it and she's happy because she can drive the car without sitting on 3 pillows. And my chops aren't busted if it gets dinged. Sorry for the extra gas on this post...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well a 2.3 with 180K on it still sounds like a very bad idea to me. This car has so many black dots from Consumer Reports it looks like somebody drilled the page with bird shot.

    Get an old Volvo 240. They are very strong and cheaper to fix and don't break down as much.

    Or buy a 2.6 or 300 series and spend the extra money now rather than later.
  • lancerfixerlancerfixer Member Posts: 1,284
    The budget is $1500. Do you really think a good 240 can be had for that? I've never seen one. Beleive you me, a 240's my first choice, too...the budget says no. I'll probably recommend the Taurus route, if I can find one without serious rust.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    ...you can probably find a 240, at least somewhere they're common (like Chicago). Seeing as how you're in Iowa, lancer, it might be best to stick with something American or Japanese, if only for the fact that they're more readily available. In my local Auto Trader, there's a pretty nice looking '85 with 133k for $1000, e-mail me if you want the number.

    I'd sooner want a $1500 240 than a $1500 190E in any case.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...when you are playing in this price range [ultra low], a used Sablaurus or something similar from GM makes a lot more sense than taking on the usual high mileage headaches associated with most EU imports. Used Tauri with plenty of life left can be had for less than $2k, and in any case, when the inevitable happens and something needs fixing, it will be cheaper in both parts and labor. And on top of that, my experience is that a Taurusable from the early '90s will actually be a better driver than any used Volvo, with comparable safety and structural integrity. These domestics make lousy new cars but very good used ones...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Actually there is some truth to that argument, come to think of it. When you're talking used car, you really want the one with the cheapest possible parts and labor rates.

    I think you could buy a Volvo 240 for $1,500 but it wouldn't necessarily be pretty. They high Blue Book on the early ones is only around $1,900 anyway.

    I wouldn't touch a Benz that wasn't very clean and had good maintenance records. You buy a shabby Benz with no history and you are in for a Bloodbath.

    Give you an idea, I bought a mint 300D, and even with all my connections and salvage yard scrounges and freeloading off shops I know, it still costs me $100 a month to keep the car on the road. Can you imagine what it would cost someone who pays retail for everything?
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I can't imagine what the monthly maintenance and repair costs would be if someone were to buy a mid-80s top-line Benz (500SEL and SEC). Wonder what it's like to keep all those electrical gadgets in check.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    This is a post-1990 car but a guy I know of relatively modest means just bought a S 320 (or whatever the biggest Benz of the previous generation is called). As this car ages will it drive him to the poorhouse even faster than a lesser Benz?
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    It probably will, since the 1992-99 generation of S-Class cars are filled with a bunch of gizmos just waiting to blow.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You know, I view old luxury cars like this:

    They are like bank accounts. If you drive and drive and only make withdrawals (called "miles") and don't make many deposits, (called "preventive maintenance and repairs", you are going to end up bankrupt (called "junking the car because it isn't worth fixing).

    Sure I could let some things go on my old Benz--who really need to right rear power window to work? And so what if the power antenna won't go down anymore? And those old hoses and belts, hey, they're working, right?

    The old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" theory" has some merit, but like most good ideas, extended to their extremes turn into bad ideas.

    Soon it turns into "But it DID break, and now I Can't fix it".
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    I'll be sure to try it out on my wife the next time the Alfa needs some attention ;-)

    -Jason
  • wimerjobewimerjobe Member Posts: 1
    What about the Mercedes 560sec? Other than the fact that it is complex, out of warranty, and expensive to maintain and repair, what kind of car is it?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's a real strassenkruezer, that's for sure. It's a nice ride but it ain't no sports car!
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I just saw an '81 Mercedes 380SLC for sale on Ebay. This one had 182k miles, and the starting price was only $1k. It looked pretty worn and beat, and I think the car is just a time bomb waiting to explode, don't you think?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Sure, it's the typical Ebay junkyard at work.

    Some damn fool will buy it, and then we'll see it on Ebay again. Damn, Ebay is brilliant, isn't it? They registered 3 billion in car sales I'm told. 'Course, I don't think too much of that went to them, but still, it's an impressive amount of business.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    In response to your post over in the News & Views board, what was so bad about the BMW Bavaria and Audi 100LS? Was it because they were just so darn expensive, or the reliability just wasn't there?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, the problem were endless. I'd need a whole topic to explain.

    Let's just say they were pioneers in the European luxury sedan field and needed to mature and develop a lot more before they were ready for the US market. Ditto Jaguar
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    One of my neighbors drives his BMW Bavaria to work every day... don't know how.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Carefully....very carefully...

    Of course, you can modify and upgrade these old cars and make them considerably better. For a Bavaria, if you could ditch the catalytics, use fuel injection rather than carbs and work on the overheating issues, you'd be a long way to a better car.

    But really, anyone who sinks money into a Bavaria rather than a 635 CSi....well, I just don't get it.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I was next to an '82 or '83 Porsche 911 SC just a couple of hours ago at a stoplight. I listened very carefully to the idle of that big air-cooled six. If that engine is really that noisy, then a Lexus V-8 must be luxury compared to it, since a Porsche of that type may never match any Lexus in terms of engine quietness.
  • lancerfixerlancerfixer Member Posts: 1,284
    "...since a Porsche of that type may never match any Lexus in terms of engine quietness."
    Umm, I don't really think that's the point at all. If you want Lexus quiet, buy a Lexus. If you want a really expensive Super Beetle, buy a Porsche.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    ....I don't think it was exactly the point of the Porsche 911 to be 'quiet'. Comparing one to a Lexus is classic apples-and-oranges.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The 1983 SC is a great car and will no doubt be with us, in multi-times restored form, long after most Lexi are recycled. The reason isn't because the Porsche is a "better" car, but rather a combination of complex characteristics that sets apart a thoroughbred from a mass produced automobile. Its about styling, heritage, performance, fun, soul, blah, blah, blah. It's complex.

    Once used up, most Japanese cars will be thrown away, but only because they won't be worth the cost of restoration. An old 1983 Japanese car is worth $800. However, at $20,000 , a 20-year-old Porsche SC might be worth fixing (if it isn't rusted beyond hope. Rust in a Porsche body is fatal, as the body is the frame.)

    So that''s why it doesn't matter if a Porsche engine is noisy. Owners don't WANT them to be quiet. In fact, that would be the worst thing you could do.
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    During the Summer the wife drives the '71 280SL to work once and some times twice a week. On weekends it is usually just too warm to want to take it out with no A/C. But with the return of Fall and a glorius day got to go for another 'event' this AM. Out doing several errands with the wife from 8:30 to 10 and stopped by 3 people to ask about the 'car' before we got the grocerys home. Then went out by myself later and had two people at stops I made ask questions, has original '71 plates since the mother-in-law bought it new, gets lots of comments. Helps that I researched '71 and '72 before I bought an MG back then but couldn't afford it even if I lusted for one at the time. Then as pulling out of my last stop, a Caddy with a nice blonde slows in a left turn in front of me and rolls down the window and gives me a thumbs up, 'great car' comment. And the wife thinks the vette is a chick car, not even close.
  • c43amg7c43amg7 Member Posts: 32
    "can't imagine what the monthly maintenance and repair costs would be if someone were to buy a mid-80s top-line Benz (500SEL and SEC). Wonder what it's like to keep all those electrical gadgets in check."

    --------------

    In respect of the big-body cars, I think that would rather be a valid concern for the first 5 years or so of the 140 S-class (say, '92 - '96).

    The predecessor 126 S-class, esp '87 or so - '91, were some of the best cars M-B every built and rely on relatively inexpensive (to maintain and repair) vacuum systems or electro-mechanical systems rather than the 140's computer controlled and electronic devices, and they are relatively easy to work on for an experienced DIY (tho some tasks still need a professional). Good independent M-B shops who can care for a 126 are relatively common and cost-effective.

    The community of knowledgeable 126 owners (for advice and assistance) is unmatched and parts are widely available for relatively reasonable prices (compared to, e.g., Lexus LS400 prices. Nobody (including M-B) is still building them like the 126s anymore -- these cars still provide a driving and riding experience reasonably comparable to current luxury models.

    As Shifty says, you have to spend the $$ on preventative maintenance and renewal -- but even at $1,200 - $1,500 per year and a purchase price in the teens, you've got a dollar-effective luxury ride that's hard to beat.
  • visionxpvisionxp Member Posts: 45
    what do you guys think of the E36 model. im mostly reffering to the early to mid 90's 318is and 325 is with the manual tranny. did any of you guys own one of these ? if yes did you have any problems or nothing unusual? i'm probably looking at cars with around 100-115k miles.

    i'm also trying to find out what would be a fair price to offer on one of these.
    any inputs would be appreciated as im trying to get as much info as possible before i go out and buy one.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    They make nice used cars but there is nothing special about them. But they are still fun to drive and can keep up nicely with most cars today. The "i s " model with a 5 speed would be best I think if you can find one. With high mileage like over 100K you'd best examine it closely for the usual wear and tear items. Also make sure you'll be comfortable in one. They aren't particularly roomy inside for bigger drivers. Be sure to work all the gadgets before you buy, and be particularly wary of any engine with a rough idle or with unusual noises. BMW engines should be very smooth and very quiet.

    Avoid neglected cars at all costs (look bad, smell bad, you know the type). I'd say a budget of $6,500 should find you a very nice car. They are plentiful and their prices are not driven by any "collectibility" issues.

    If you look at convertibles, you will pay a few thousand more of course, and some years have very irksome convertible top mechanisms, so be sure to work the top up and down any number of times, including the securing lid.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    ...I think 318 convertibles of this era have manual tops, while 325s have power.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Don't know that, sorry.
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