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Comments
I hate it when people do that to me. I'm not going to sit in a line of cars that just keeps stacking up and stacking up because everyone merges a 1/4 mile or more before the lane ends. There is a reason it ends where it does and I will use my right to continue to the very end. If only people would learn to zipper smoothly at the end instead of haphazardly way before it's time.
Case in point. Here as I-10 leaves Phoenix going towards Tucson, it drops a lane. During rush hour this produces huge, mile long backups of the remaining two lanes. I am NOT going to sit in a mile of 10-20 MPH traffic when there is a perfectly good lane moving at 45-55 MPH. And then when I do get to the drop, where the lane lines disappear, people in the other lane jump over to block what is effectively two lanes. Hello! The road was designed for traffic moving 65-75 MPH, so it takes awhile for it to actually narrow down. I'm going to continue moving along to find a good spot and I WILL go around these drivers (they can't possibly fill the space anyway. :P)
Certainly the sheer number of cars is also a significant factor, but the fact that you see the worst slowdowns wherever traffic has to merge or exit -- and you can actually see massive unnecessary braking occur when people are unable to merge because traffic is packed too tightly (which, of course, has backwards-propagating ripple effects) illustrates that tailgating helps create congestion. Traffic grinds to a completely unnecessary stop-and-go halt near major merge areas because, among other bad habits, people don't leave room for others to merge.
While tailgating is also a symptom of gridlock, it is in the same way that sickness is the symptom of contagion. Each helps beget the other. It's a vicious cycle.
I grew up in Binghamton, NY -- a city of 60,000 people surrounded by open countryside. I now live in the San Francisco bay area -- a sprawling megalopolis with no clear distinctions between municipal boundaries.
In the bay area, people almost always merge at the last possible minute in construction zones. This is the rule, not the exception.
I was back home last summer and promptly realized how much I'd been conditioned by bay area life. There was a construction zone resulting in a lane closure on a bridge, and almost NOBODY zoomed down the ending lane to the very end. All you saw was the line of traffic in one lane, negotiating its way onto the bridge (even though it was moving slowly). The occasional offender who stayed in the ending lane and merged last-minute received a very cold reception from the rest of the drivers.
I'm not sure whether it's a big city/small city thing, an east coast/west coast thing, or a little of both. Even when I've driven in other (more rural) parts of California, the drivers seem to have much more of a "me-me-me-me-me" demeanor (i.e., thinking only of their own needs, while being oblivious to everybody else's). But then again, every highway in California (rural or not) seems to have a lot more traffic than the rural highways of central NY.
(Please don't think I'm collectively passing judgment on California drivers. I'm speaking only of the individual offenders, which for some reason seem to exist in higher concentrations in this state.)
And I'm sure New York City drivers would seem a lot more selfish than Binghamton ones too.
So who knows. It's just interesting that the construction-zone-merging behavior differs drastically between different regions.
The reason why so many of these merging areas have backed up traffic is BECAUSE of drivers trying to wait until the last moment to merge (which is fine) but maintaining a significant speed differential. What ends up happening is that those drivers either cut into the other lane at a high rate of speed and then brake (typically causing a backlash of braking behind) or they stop near the end of the lane and then have to fit in the other lane from a stand still (also causing a backlash of braking behind). Either way, the dominos are falling and suddenly there is a traffic jam.
I have never once been on a highway where this is occuring where the speed of traffic does not instantly double (or more) after passing the end point of the merging lanes. It is an amazing (ly stupid) phenomenon, but still, there it is.
FWIW, the best solution I have found to keep traffic moving is simply to keep a gap in front of me such that any "bulldogger" or zipper-er that is first in the other line can jump in (typically just one will make it at any given time, especially at the end of the merge area) without causing me to brake. As far as I am concerned, it does not matter if someone is ahead of me on the roadway as long as I am not adversely affected by it - I will still get where I am going and may even do so faster. While I am going through the merge zone, at least, the line is always moving with none of that moronic start-stop that backs up traffic for miles. And, often, we will be traveling along at a comfortable, if not annoying, 20 mph while traffic ahead is 0-30 in a repetitive dance of lunacy.
The few times I find myself on the flip side of that coin (the ending lane), I will simply slow to a speed that is close to the other lane, find a spot that can accommodate my vehicle, pace (with blinker), and enter. 2 out of 3 times the person in front of whom I am merging would prefer I not be there, but I am not asking, and eventually they will get over it. Granted, I never wait until the end in construction zones before I start looking, because that is where you can literally run out of lane if traffic is not moving or is moving at 5-10 mph (and typically bumper-to-bumper... to save space!) and then you go back to the top of this post. :sick:
This is an excellent suggestion. Get out of the way so that you don't become a victim and call the cops. Same with the LLC: Get out of the way and call the cops on the speeder.
And don't worry, I'm not calling black tulip an LLC.
But, most highways I have driven (and I have driven most stretches of interstate in the north 1/2 of the lower 48 at one time or another - lucky enough to have not driven in urban California, Arizona, or Texas!) are pummeled with traffic delays while not being any where near capacity. The culprit is a traffic flow problem cause by an unwillingness to share the roadway - lane changes, ramp merging, etc.
I recall in Columbus, OH, every day (I was there for 5 days) it was like a tide, with a constant ebb and flow.... speed ebbed at every ramp and then began to flow quickly until the next ramp. Foolish. I even had this one driver have the gall to honk at me for maintaining a large enough following distance to allow another driver to merge in front of me from a ramp. This driver bore down on me laying on the horn while the other car merged in front of us (flawlessly, I might add). Then, to prove she was a complete moron, swung into the next lane without signaling (causing the vehicle she cut off to brake hard and then the next few behind that vehicle) zip ahead of me, and then try to cut me off. It was really bizarre. I guess I did not learn my lesson though, because I was equally considerate to her (who remained in front of me for several more miles) and kept a reasonable following distance where numerous vehicles entered and exited my lane with never a kink to be found. :confuse:
Certainly the sheer number of cars is also a significant factor, but the fact that you see the worst slowdowns wherever traffic has to merge or exit -- and you can actually see massive unnecessary braking occur when people are unable to merge because traffic is packed too tightly (which, of course, has backwards-propagating ripple effects) illustrates that tailgating helps create congestion. Traffic grinds to a completely unnecessary stop-and-go halt near major merge areas because, among other bad habits, people don't leave room for others to merge.
While tailgating is also a symptom of gridlock, it is in the same way that sickness is the symptom of contagion. Each helps beget the other. It's a vicious cycle.
Absolutely. More cars might/should result in a lower travelling speed. But, the choppiness is due to poor driver behavior. It is obvious and completely remediable, but requires a paradigm shift on the part of every driver on the road, and most are too defensive to admit that and take corrective action. In the meantime, gridlock, and they deserve every moment of it.
Michigan drivers seem to have the most courtesy moving through Ohio/KY on the interstates (other than Detroit area drivers, sorry). The intend to move, don't tailgate until you are in their way too long and they expect to let people in and share the road at blockages.
Edit:
A poster a couple up said it well about Columbus traffic. Using all lanes and leaving a little room for mergees really helps the total flow and stops the bump, bump, increasingly great back through the line until someone actually is at a dead stop.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
This is a seemingly obvious point, but undercited, and I thank you for mentioning it: because traffic flow problems are the collective result of many people's mistakes compounding each other. As such, the only cure is a "critical mass" of drivers correcting those mistakes to create a collectively better system.
And since correcting those mistakes often feels like giving in to everybody else's aggression, most people are going to continue to drive selfishly, rather than be the "only ones doing something about it."
It's classic NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) syndrome. "SOMEbody has to do something about it, but not me, and I'm only one person anyway, so does it really matter?"
I'm not going to say I'm a great driver, because as we know, everybody says they're a great driver, and many apparently are not. But I will maintain that -- however imperfect -- I'm a thinking driver and an aware driver, and that's the best any of us can offer. I just wish more people made the effort.
And she's probably the same person who would get aggressive and upset if she was trying to merge and somebody didn't let her in...
As your story indicates, sometimes the best response is no response. Ignore the person's tirade and treat them with the same dignity and respect you'd treat a courteous driver. It really takes the wind out of an aggressive person's sails sometimes to get no acknowledgment.
Thanks for keeping your cool. That's one fewer maniac on the road
I wouldn't even say it is a large contributing factor, it is just a symptom of what causes rush hour congestion, that being way more traffic than the expressway can effectively manage.
Certainly the sheer number of cars is also a significant factor, but the fact that you see the worst slowdowns wherever traffic has to merge or exit
Not always true, I used to take I-55 through the SW burbs of Chicago. One of the worse slowdowns comes after a major area where traffic merges and exits. This is after the interchange with I-355 where 5 lanes merge to 4 then one lane exits leaving 3. Most times the gridlock starts after the road returns to 3 lanes.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have also traveled most of the Interstates in the lower 48 and with the exception of construction zones, accidents, bad weather or LLC's I cannot think of any time outside of metropolitan areas that there was any traffic flow problems. Also remember that a rural interstate road with a 70 MPH SL can only hold less that 50 vehicles per mile each direction.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
While it is the obvious point I don't think that it would solve anything. There are inherited issues with putting 20,000 cars on a 35 mile stretch of highway that no amount of driver education can solve. When you get to a certain point in road saturation certain properties of wave action start to take effect. Much the same way that a line of cars traveling from one red light to another do not all start, accellerate and slow down at the same time and rate (nor could they if they wanted to).
Once you thrown in the radical random elements of people entering and exiting along the way you just make things worse.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not sure if this matches your situation but every now and again I get behind someone during very heavy traffic that keeps a much larger space between them and the car ahead than the situation warrants. What usually happens is that someone will merge in and the person will back off and the someone else merges in and the cycle continues. The effect being is that that person ends up going slower than the rest of the traffic thereby making the congestion that much worse. When I see one of these people usually I end up passing them and, as with everyone else, leaving them far behind.
basically in an attempt to keep a much further distance between them and the car in front of them they usually end up being the slowest car on the road.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Through the years, I have seen 18-wheelers apply justice and traffic control. A pair will drive side by side on a 2-lane (each way) interstate until the point that one lane is actually closed for construction. Then, the open lane trucker will slow and let in the other trucker. Occasionally have seen a car driving the shoulder to get around the blocking trucker. Have sometimes seen trucker blocker straddle lane and shoulder to block any idiot 4-wheelers trying to pass on the shoulder.
Anyway, I was in my '85 Silverado and there was a Jeep Cherokee ahead of me. We were probably doing about 35-40. Above the speed limit I know, but that's actually slow compared to how some people cut through here!
Well, suddenly, out of nowhere this little white Benz C-class tries to pass me, between the truck and the curb! I dunno what the hell he thought he was doing. Now there was a side street coming up, and I thought maybe he was going to turn right onto that, but he didn't.
Suddenly, for no reason, the Cherokee suddenly moved over to the right and stopped on the shoulder once we were out of that neighborhood. At that point the Benz slowed up and got back over behind me, and rode my bumper until I made my left turn onto my street.
I was kinda hoping he'd turn left onto my street as well, because I was planning on going extra slow all the way up it, passing my house, going up to the end of the road, and then doubling back...just for the hell of it. But he kept going straight.
What would possess someone to pull a kamikaze maneuver like that, though?! You'd think that someone in a fairly new Benz in good shape would know better than to try bullying around with a 21 year old pickup twice its size! Plus, when he started to try passing me it was actually on a blind curb, and he was just lucky there were no parked cars along the street! Maybe he was on his way to the crack house or something? Or to get a reload on the crystal meth? :confuse:
who said 2 car lengths is optimal? that's minimal following distance at most speeds, but not enough at 80MPH.
i think it a tad inaccurate to say the person ends up going slower. momentarily this is true, but once the distance is re-established, they generally maintain speed with the vehicles in front and behind them.
this would be the proper way to drive on the interstate by the way. :P
what is it to you if the vehicle in front of you is 2 or 3 or even 4 car lengths behind the vehicle it is following if you are doing the same speed?
oh wait, you probably subscribe to the theory that if they keep doing this backoff to maintain proper following distance, that if you follow them, you'd never get to your destination. :shades:
What? 2 seconds is fine at 80 MPH, in fact it is the recommended following distance (not simply minimal) for all speeds. I've done it more than once and have no problems. I can usually even bring my car to a stop well faster than the car in front of me. See, 2 second following distance means that the space increases as the speed increases. Maybe you should get your vision checked?
I too get behind people that keep inordinately large gaps (three or four cars could easily fit in) and I will pass them, if and only if, they are too reactive to the cars in front. The other problem with these huge gaps, is that it seems to encourage people to jump back and forth between lanes, causing the driver holding the large gap to hit the brakes to adjust. I see drivers that hold these large gaps and still hit the brakes every time they see brake lights in front of them. Matter of fact, I got behind an Accord yesterday that did this (actually made the gap larger every time the cars in front braked :confuse:), and when we got off the highway and onto another, it tried to race me as I passed. It didn't stand a chance though.
oh wait, you probably subscribe to the theory that if they keep doing this backoff to maintain proper following distance, that if you follow them, you'd never get to your destination.
You make it, but it makes for a very choppy driving experience. Most people that hold these gaps have this wierd notion that they MUST resize the gap immediately and as fast as possible when someone moves into it.
Maybe the driver was drunk?
Who said anything about two car lengths? Also two car lengths is a little close for anything over say 20 MPH.
i think it a tad inaccurate to say the person ends up going slower. momentarily this is true, but once the distance is re-established, they generally maintain speed with the vehicles in front and behind them.
While this is true as soon as someone else merges in in front of them then the fall back behind that guy and then someone else merges in a head of them and they fall back more. We are talking about very heavy near gridlock rush hour traffic here, you leave 5 car lengths and soon its filled up with two cars so you slow down to create the 5 car lenghts and two cars fill up that space. And the cycle continues. These people always are going slower than the flow of traffic.
what is it to you if the vehicle in front of you is 2 or 3 or even 4 car lengths behind the vehicle it is following if you are doing the same speed?
The problem is that people passing them on either side will merge into that land and they slow down to create that space again which in turn allows people passing them to merge in which in turn means they go slower to get the extra space which in turn means people passing them will merge in which in turns means they will go slower to create more following room which.... you get my drift.
oh wait, you probably subscribe to the theory that if they keep doing this back off to maintain proper following distance, that if you follow them, you'd never get to your destination.
No I subscribe to the theory that those who do this are going 5-10 MPH slower than the flow of traffic which adds to the gridlock. I just usually pass them.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That could be...this was kinda early, about 8:30 pm, but hey, that's not too early to start drinking and slide behind the wheel of a car! :surprise: What's that old saying "It's always after 12:00 somewhere" :shades:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
60mph=2 sec=176/f2sec if the average car 17 feet long
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
They should start fining these people at least $ 500 for tossing out cigarette butts. Or sentence them to 100 hours of community service picking up every cigarete butt in a mile long stretch of road. Not only are they littering, but they can accidentally start a fire. Last time I checked, cars and trucks come with ash trays, or ashtrays are availalbe as an accessory. There is no reason to toss your butts out the window. If you must smoke in yourcar, kindly keep the smoke and its products to yourself.
I will second that.
Thanks for keeping your cool. That's one fewer maniac on the road
I have had my moments of being caught off guard, but I do learn from my mistakes. Cross-country trips tend to see my on my best behavior.
Ugh. Yes.... obnoxious. The point is fluid movement. Panic (or any unnecessary) braking is not fluid. It is incredibly simple to open or close gaps in a roadway without creating a ripple unless there is someone behind you who is following too close and finds it necessary to brake. I keep gaps in front of me always, and I never find myself moving slower than other traffic, at least not on average. It only takes a minute (1 mph or so) change in speed to gradually open a safe traveling gap.
For example, traveling through Chicago back in July of 1999, I found myself in the thick of it starting at about 1530 on a weekday afternoon. Traffic was literally stop and go. I was stopping and going for about 10 minutes when I realized that my clutch was going to burn out in my poor old truck (I was driving my 1969 Chevy C20) before I made it through this section of highway. So, I dumped it in 2nd and idled along at about, er.... 6? mph for the next 45 minutes and never once hit the brakes again. Up ahead, the traffic was going stop/go between 0 and, maybe, 15 endlessly. It seemed really foolish to me because I never had to stop and I probably had 30-40 vehicles come in front of me thinking there was hope up ahead, but most quickly exited the lane at the next false offering. Often I would get real close to the stopped traffic ahead before it would get moving again, but never applied the brakes and never hit the gas. Even with that old beast, I probably got as good of mileage as anyone else out there and far less wear and tear on the truck and on me. Now, how well others behind were doing... I don't know (6 mph is rather slow) but the first few cars behind me never stopped either.
Did it help anything? Hard to say for sure because the road was so congested, but it sure helped my sanity and it could not have been worse than maintaining status quo. I did not keep my "spot" for sure and I would probably have made it an extra few feet up the road had I kept on the next car's bumper, but I might have run out of fuel before I made it those 10 miles to a "promising" exit. Of course, that exit ended up having construction along the next several miles that kept traffic all gummed up there too, but then the roads cleared up and we took "scenic" routes along the area until finally making it to Madison, Wisconsin and then back onto the interstate.
Back from the overly long (as always) example, agreed that 2 seconds is good for any speed under good visibility and road conditions. Longer time gaps are only warranted for adverse conditions either in sight (reaction time) or in surface (stopping/maneuvering distance). But, the only times such a distance can be properly maintained is under constant speeds. In the absence of that, give and take must come into play otherwise you will look like it is your first day learning to drive a manual transmission! :surprise:
re: the cig butt tossers...make em do some "community service" cleaning up after fires.
I've done that even though it leaves a gap ahead but it helps the traffic behind because no longer do they have the stopping ripple effect back through the line.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I drive home from work on MD-32 (in maryland). Usually, it's pretty decent. But today... well, it was something else.
First, I had the joy of being followed by a hopscotcher. You know the type. Tootling along a few miles below the speed limit in the right lane. So you move over to the passing lane and pass, then return to the right lane. Well, the hopscotcher can't STAND to be passed, so they immediately step on the gas and pass you, then get over and quickly slow right back down to the below-speed limit speed. Which then leads to another pass, followed by another, and another, and another, etc, etc, etc.
Then, after getting fed up with it and simply moving over to the passing lane and getting a few miles away from the lunatic hopscotcher, I find myself behind a car of a twitchy brake-tapper. The car was doing a reasonable speed, but the driver would tap their brakes just enough to light up the brake lights every one or two seconds. Mind you, I wasn't tailing the person, either.
So, then, I decide to pass that car... only to find myself behind the LLC. So, I then slow down, get behind the twitchy brake-tapper and pass the LLC in the right lane.
But wait, there's MORE.
As I was taking the exit off the highway, I find myself behind a van that cuts across four lanes of traffic (2 highway and 2 exit lanes) to get into the exit I was about to take. Rude, but not terribly threatening, as I was still somewhat far away. But then, the van immediately cuts BACK ACROSS all four lanes to get back into the passing lane of the highway!
And that was hair-raising, as the van waited until I was almost passing him (as there was two lanes for the exit).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As I recall, no LLC tried to block the progress of these obvious law breakers.
i mentioned 2 car lengths because it's rare to see even a car length between vehicles on 285 in altanta doing 80 when they can. scarey. very. i see people doing about 1/2 to 2/3rds a car length often. i figured though the minimal distance between vehicle merge at good speed is about 2 vehicles spacing. maybe i'm wrong about that, but seems about right based on what i see people attempting.
anyhow i didn't mean to attribute "2" anything to any particular poster.
sure sure. i shouldn't have referenced car lengths but time between vehicles (find a landmark and start counting). and yeah, while 2 seconds means different distances at different speeds, it's still insufficient at 80 IMHO though.
1Mile = 5280ft right?
80MPH = 80mi*(5280ft/mi)/Hour = (80*5280)ft/(60min*60)sec = 117.334ft/sec
theoretically, 2sec following at that speed is twice that or 234.668ft.
what is the stopping distance of your vehicle with partially warn tires, warn pads, oil on the pavement, perhaps some drizzle? what about your reaction time, and the time to get on the brakes?
ahh - did you say mississippi or one-one thousand a little fast when you were counting your following time? :surprise:
that isn't a lot of following distance at high speed even if you are really good at counting off seconds and choosing landmarks and starting your count right on time.
now, suppose you could reliably stop in that distance when you see everything going to HE__ in front of you... what about the jerk that's tailgating you?
Sure, that would be a bummer of a situation, but you can only "worry" about what is within your ability to control... or at least affect. Travel distance is not the only factor; one must be aware of surroundings at all times and keep "outs" in mind so that if any are to be had, it can be taken.
Hahahahhaha, bigfoot, me too. I am the best driver on the road... except when I foul up(and I will not mention how frequently that occurs).
Fin, so true. Over cautious is just as bad as under. Those over cautious drivers are the ones who will yield when they have right of way, not take a left turn when there is an appreciable gap in traffic, slam on the brakes just after entering a bank of fog, etc.
I saw a lady in a mid-90s Camry do the "improper yield" last night. A pickup truck almost rear-ended her as she SLAMMED on the brakes while making a left turn onto an expressway ramp because a Suburban was making a right turn onto the same ramp and was, as he should have been, slowing to a stop to observe his yield. I mean, this gal romped those brakes after quickly accelerating to about 30 (with all traffic behind doing the same) and came to a complete stop. The guy in the Suburban looked at her with curiosity and then politely waved her forward until she decided it really was okay to go. :confuse:
what is the stopping distance of your vehicle
Remember your stopping distance in this case is 234.668 feet plus however long it takes for the car in front of you to stop. If it takes 267 feet (Typical stopping distance for a car going 80 MPH) for that car to stop you only need to stop before going 501 feet. Now lets presume that your brakes and tires are not as good as they should be your stopping distance would be about 425 feet, add about 60 feet for reaction time (about a half second) and you stop 16 feet short of the car ahead of you.
Two seconds is plenty of distance for any speed. Now weather and other conditions may warrant extending that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D