50 percent Hemi, wow, that's a big portion. Aren't there 3 engines options in total?
Read yesterday that there will be an even hotter SRT version of the Magnum and 300, that'll be interesting to see. Wonder if they'll offer manual trannies?
about having a 6-speed manual for the Charger next year, and won't that have basically the same powertrain as the SRT Magnum and 300? So I hope they have manuals for these two as well...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I didn't like the sketches I saw of the coupe version of the 300. I like consistent styling, and it's blocky everywhere but rounded on the C pillar, and that breaks up any design continuity.
you're right, i wasn't thinking of dealer orders as opposed to customer orders.
yeah, dealers should turn over those hemis quick because if the manufacturer keeps up that kind of production pace, paying MSRP won't last for long at all, regardless of the engine.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
This has been a very interesting discussion... pages and pages of posts of people discussing what the word "sport" means. PLEASE!! I thought this whole discussion was over about 15 years ago when golf was considered a sport. The definition doesn't matter... call it a cardboard wagon. I don't think anybody cares... it isn't as if we buy our vehicles this way. I'm not going to go to the Dodge dealership, test drive it, price it out, and then tell the sales guy, "Woah there! Hey, you guys claim this is a sports wagon, and it clearly is not! What am I gonna tell my wife? I just can't get it!" The word "sport" is going to mean something different to everyone out there. Lets leave it at that. Now can somebody please try to provide a legitimate contender in the same price range for the Magnum? I would like to see actual viable contenders... not $50K to $80K luxury cars. I mean something that someone would actually consider buying for the same money. After all, that is the position most people are in. If money were not a serious consideration, then the list of comparisons would be too great.
My .02 - Sport implies some competency in athletic ism in terms of handling and performance. Sport to me implies a canyon carver or mountain runner vehicle.
The company that created the Sport Wagon , Crossover SUV craze is Subaru. The 2005 Legacy GT Limited Wagon is a true contender against the Magnum RT Hemi Wagon. Test drive both, I think you will like both, but I think you will be more surprised at the power of the Legacy. The Magnum has some size that is nice for larger drivers. An SRT model Magnum or Sti Legacy wagon would be awesome.
A Subaru Legacy GT wagon, with a 5 speed, would probably outrun a Magnum Hemi off the line. Dyno reports show it's actually producing about 260hp and 270 lb-ft of torque, and it's a lot lighter than the Magnum.
I guess you might include a Passat W8 wagon as well, but it's not as fast.
On the budget side, a Mazda6 wagon, but torque will seem deficient compared to the Hemi, no doubt.
And yes, both are coming, a Magnum SRT and a Subaru Legacy STi, can you imagine? I'd looove to compare those puppies!
As a matter of fact, Mazda is building a hopped up 2.3l turbo Mazda6 to compete with the EVO and STi, though I think it'll be a sedan. What if they made a wagon version of that car?
Subaru has had turbo Legacy wagons in overseas markets for a long time, not sure if they pre-dated the T5R (a cool ride).
They actually sold a Legacy turbo wagon from 1990-1993 or so, 160hp back then and really good torque for its era.
I really do enjoy the comparisons here, but I question why the word "sport" is such a focus of the discussion. I think it is a little pointless to be defining it anymore because apparently a Suburban is now a "Sport Utility Wagon", and it is anything but sporty. I know a lot of people that have bought a Subaru and they totally swear by them. They won't drive anything else. My real question is whether it will hold someone my size, I'm 6'5". Anybody know whether it is accommodating of someone my size?
are you sure? There will be a Legacy STi wagon? That is awesome if so - I can't wait to see it. The regular turbo Legacy now has 250 hp, right? So I guess the STi will reach 300 or so?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
6'5" is pretty tall, I'd sit in anything for a while before I jumped. You won't fit in my Miata for sure. I think my Forester has plenty of headroom and leg room is probably adequate for you.
We have an '02 Legacy and for me it has room to spare, and I'm 6' even. Headroom is tighter than the Forester. We have a moonroof, you'd probably have to get one without that option (so avoid the Limited models).
I'd say you'd fit in a Forester, maybe in an Outback without a moonroof. The Legacy and Outback wagons especially have raised roofs, so you get a little more headroom that similar cars tend to offer.
I agree - they call the Outback the Sport Utility Wagon, but the Legacy GT is actually a LOT sporiter - bigger front brakes, quicker steering, shorter effective gearing, less weight, lower center of gravity, lower profile tires, and tighter suspension. Sportier in every way, basically.
Nothing is for sure until we see it. ;-)
Just rumors, but they seem to come up again and again (Legacy STi). I read about the Magnum SRT in a car mag.
The title of this forum is "Sport Wagon", and I believe whoever created this forum had the intention of discussing "sport" Wagons. That is why there is so much talk about what sport means. It does mean different things to different people, but that is the whole point of the discussion. If everyone had the same idea of what 'sport' meant, there would be no need for this forum. If you read this forum, I think you should expect to see a lot of chat regarding 'sport'.
Granted Volvo always made nice wagons and the Volvo 850 T5R and T5's period are nice. Some might question it's true sport handling capabilities but it has a sporty enough powertrain. But the wagon crossover craze wasn't adopted by other manufatures until after the success of the Subaru Outback wagon. The potency of the compact and midsize segment was upped a notch with the success of the WRX.
There are other euro wagons like the MB E-class, but those are truly upper-crust mommy haulers and not sport wagons. The BMW wagons are nice but not very fun. Now the Audi S4 Avant or S6 wagon is another story but the price point is very high.
It's funny because AMC fans quiver when you call the Outback the first sport utility wagon. But Subaru fans counter and claim that Subaru had a raised 4WD wagon way, way back in 1972, that was truly the original.
Buddhabman: I've had a (nice) T5R and driven S4 and S6 wagons, owned 2 M3's and have to say I disagree with your statement 'the BMW wagons are nice but not very fun'... Until the RS6 or the 545i wagons are released in the US, I settle for what I think is 'fun'. BR Peter 540iT (sport package + 18" M-sport wheels w/ S-03's)
Holey Moley! WHO is calling the Chevy Suburban a "Sport Wagon"?!? GM? That's incredible. That is exactly why this forum is necessary, to cut through that sort of hype and misdirection.
I've driven Suburbans in suspension-breaking rough country, but that's a lot of work, not sport. It was a truck fercryinoutloud, basically a panel truck with windows: truck frame, live axle, leaf springs, bias-belt lugged tires, high center of gravity, pair of rear doors. Not much fun to drive with numb loose steering, bouncy ride, and no grab handles, but sure could haul the goods and raise clouds of dust.
Also, wagons are built on car chassis, right? So imagine that: the "wagon" idea is now so trendy that GM is trying to slip the Suburban elephant into our little play tent?! So there's our answer: sport wagons ARE the wave of the future ;-)
And this forum provides useful opinions and evaluations on just what sort of "sport" that is!
I just remembered an interesting experience. While in the Marines, I was stationed at NAS Willow Grove, Pa. I was fortunate enough to be part of the funeral detail. We had 2 vehicles available for this duty. Both were matching '97 Suburban 4X4s with "all" the goodies, including the 454 under the hood. Normal detail included 6-8 Marines. Not much of a wagon, but could find a little sport with the go pedal mashed through the floor board! Would leave twin repaving stripes when we got a little hurried! They were ordered that way because sometimes the Colonel would need to use them for official business.
One thing to keep in mind is that as rebates arrive, so do price increases. I've tracked a few domestic cars and have seen about 6 price increases per year.
In essence they make room for the rebates, but the price is not necessarily any lower than it was at the intro.
A Magnum Hemi for under $30k is IMO a good value. I bet in 2 years it will have $3000 cash back - but it will also retail for about $33k.
As with any new technology, it's probably wise to see how well it fares before taking the dive, that I agree with.
I agree with you a 545 wagon will be nice. But the current versions of the BMW 325 and 525 are not the sportiest of the sport wagons. The current Saab Aero, the Volvo's T5's and V70-R wagons are more powerful and practical. The new Legacy GT wagon is probably as good or better as a driver than all listed.
Well have you seen the rebates on the Durango? Dodge is carrying some pretty hefty rebates without raising prices. I have also checked a few more domestic vehicles. The rebates are pretty helpful. I can't say about two years down the road. I can only talk about the rebates that are here and now. I'm not really planning on buying the magnum hemi 2 years from now. I plan on buying it at least by next September. It's good to watch and wait to see if it gets any recalls or consistent complaints.
Good idea, especially with the cylinder deactivation technology that is still new.
Rebates are a mixed bag, they kill residuals so it ends up costing the same in the end. I also think the automakers just increase prices (in some cases 6 times a year) to make room for those rebates.
Well, I have checked some of the consumer reports. They have so far shown the Dodge Magnum to hold its own. Do you understand why consumers talk about how cheap the interior of the Magnum looks and still buys the vehicle? I was reading a consumer review in Edmund. If I was that dissatisfied with a purchase I would take it back. Why stay with a vehicle that's not meeting your expectations? That's something I'll never understand about consumers. Those features you don't like aren't going to change after you buy the vehicle. Do you buy into e class suspension system and the mercedes components for the gear system? Do you really think that makes a difference in purchasing the Dodge Magnum? Or do you think everybody just wants the Hemi?
I haven't driven the new Hemi-equipped Magnum or 300-C, but I did drive the new Durango with that engine. Frankly I wasn't that impressed. The larger-still Armada felt quicker, and according to magazine road tests, IS quicker.
Slow, slower, slowest you're talking about big SUV's with truck transmissions/gearing. The 300C clicked off 0-60 in 5.3 seconds and 13.9 @ 102mph. Different ball game. The Armada is one of the faster SUV's on the market now and it only run 0-60 in 7.0 and a leisurely 15.5 @ 89!
Maybe, but you would think the larger, heavier Armada, with a smaller less powerful engine would be slower than the lighter more powerful Durango. Not so.
The dodge truck drivetrains have always had more parasitic power loss IMHO. Plus from what I've heard, the Hemi doesn't wake up until it has a few miles on it so green engine test drives might not be completely accurate on the butt-o-meter.
According to Car and Driver, the Armada and Durango are very close in performance. Picking nits for the most part to say one is quicker than the other. Durango is slightly behind in 0-60, slightly ahead in the 1/4 mile.
I think performance is certainly a draw for the Magnum and I haven't heard anyone say the power was ho-hum unless perhaps they stepped out of an extremely high performance car. Granted some folks have different tastes in performance, but typically the powerband of a V8 matches my driving style well. My 4cyl VW diesel being the exception.
i'll state the obvious: power and weight are only part of the equation. Gearing makes a HUGE difference. And, of course, the peak power numbers don't tell you about the entire power band, either.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
It sounds like it would be better to wait out the hemi craze. I think they will probably start coming with bigger rebates.The wagon has not really been consumer tested and proven through the years. Nobody really knows if it's all hype or if it's a very reliable durable vehicle. I think after somebody breaks takes it to 100,000 miles with no problems.Then I think that will say a lot about the vehicles' worth. I plan on getting me one. It seems like so many vehicles have rebates that it would be worth the wait on the rebates on the magnum. I've only seen 48 reviews on this site for the magnum. I think at least 200 for the 300C. Maybe, there's a shortage of the RT. I've been to at least three dealerships in my state. They do have sxt. I ran across a red Rt. I was looking for mineral gray. The dealership told me it would be a few weeks for the rt to come in. I think demand will wear down if the gas prices drop to reasonable prices. The magnum will drop with the gas prices.
A little off topic, but I plan to purchase a Mazda 6 GT Sport Wagon. Can anyone tell me if the optional Bose audio system is MP3 compatible and is there a way to connect an iPod to this system?
Michael, to specifically discuss the 6 wagon, head on over to the Mazda 6 Wagon topic and check what owners and others interested inthe 6 wagon have to say about it.
You might also stop in at the weekly Mazda chat tonight and see what folks there have to say!
We have a fair number of luxury wagons here in LA, mostly foreign such as Audi. Have also seen a few Dodge Magnums, lots of Subarus, but virtually no Mailbu Maxxes.
As the the "Hemi fad", it's firing on all cylinders here. Chrysler 300C's are all over the place (I see several each day), along with "tuned" Accords, Hummers, Excursions and plentiful oversized vehicles, each with only one person inside. Do they care about gas prices? I doubt it.
I looked at the A3..I beleive it is smaller in comparison to the Maxx...it is typical German quality, which in my experience has been good........but you cant touch one here in NOVA for under 30K....at least the ones on the lot I looked at were fully loaded...and all the bells and whistles.....and it appears you lose some legroom in the back as well...Price wise...the Maxx is still a better value IMHO.
The A3 is quite small, I went to see one at Rockville Audi. It has not been prepped and their demo was wrecked, so I could not test drive it. I imagine the 2.0 FSI feels a lot different than the 'bu's V6. Lighter and sportier.
The Maxx can pass as a family vehicle, it's a lot bigger, tons more rear legroom. I've only driven the sedan, but handling is on the soft side. The V6 is torquey, though.
Yes I read A3 is quite smaller than Maxx (about 2 ' shorter). Will be interesting to see how it does in IIHS testing (its cousin, the Jetta, did very well in side impact testing - better than the Malibu or most other mid sized cars).
if anyone here does compare two as driving, etc., will enjoy hearing about it!
But Lordy, the Magnum is a monster muthah! Is there really a comparison from a driver's perspective? I would think the Legacy would be so much more pleasant to really drive.
Or am I not in step with the average consumer here? ;-]
Yeah, that kinda demonstrates how things work in the US vs. other countries.
Other countries you get a compact with tight suspension, direct steering, and good power. Takes some skill but lots of fun. Pretty much any import manufacturer makes a sport compact. American companies started doing it too, because no one outside the US wants a Camaro.
In the US, car companies market V8s with marshmallow suspensions, slushy sticks, and wiggly wheels, and call it "performance." Absolutely no skill required. Just glue a rocket to your tail and light it. Just try not to do anything like turn or brake. Thus is the legacy of the Camaro, GTO, Mustang, and Charger.
The thing is, once you've drived one of the import sporties, it's hard to go back to one of those straight-line, hum-drum tail-rockets. Trust me, it's a religious experience realizing what's SUPPOSED to happen when you take a turn fast.
Comments
50 percent Hemi, wow, that's a big portion. Aren't there 3 engines options in total?
Read yesterday that there will be an even hotter SRT version of the Magnum and 300, that'll be interesting to see. Wonder if they'll offer manual trannies?
-juice
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-juice
you're right, i wasn't thinking of dealer orders as opposed to customer orders.
yeah, dealers should turn over those hemis quick because if the manufacturer keeps up that kind of production pace, paying MSRP won't last for long at all, regardless of the engine.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The word "sport" is going to mean something different to everyone out there. Lets leave it at that.
Now can somebody please try to provide a legitimate contender in the same price range for the Magnum? I would like to see actual viable contenders... not $50K to $80K luxury cars. I mean something that someone would actually consider buying for the same money. After all, that is the position most people are in. If money were not a serious consideration, then the list of comparisons would be too great.
The company that created the Sport Wagon , Crossover SUV craze is Subaru. The 2005 Legacy GT Limited Wagon is a true contender against the Magnum RT Hemi Wagon. Test drive both, I think you will like both, but I think you will be more surprised at the power of the Legacy. The Magnum has some size that is nice for larger drivers. An SRT model Magnum or Sti Legacy wagon would be awesome.
I belive that first Sport Wagon was Volvo 850 T5R and not Subaru. There were always high powered versions of MB E class and BMW 5 series.
Krzys
I guess you might include a Passat W8 wagon as well, but it's not as fast.
On the budget side, a Mazda6 wagon, but torque will seem deficient compared to the Hemi, no doubt.
And yes, both are coming, a Magnum SRT and a Subaru Legacy STi, can you imagine? I'd looove to compare those puppies!
As a matter of fact, Mazda is building a hopped up 2.3l turbo Mazda6 to compete with the EVO and STi, though I think it'll be a sedan. What if they made a wagon version of that car?
Subaru has had turbo Legacy wagons in overseas markets for a long time, not sure if they pre-dated the T5R (a cool ride).
They actually sold a Legacy turbo wagon from 1990-1993 or so, 160hp back then and really good torque for its era.
-juice
I know a lot of people that have bought a Subaru and they totally swear by them. They won't drive anything else. My real question is whether it will hold someone my size, I'm 6'5".
Anybody know whether it is accommodating of someone my size?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
We have an '02 Legacy and for me it has room to spare, and I'm 6' even. Headroom is tighter than the Forester. We have a moonroof, you'd probably have to get one without that option (so avoid the Limited models).
I'd say you'd fit in a Forester, maybe in an Outback without a moonroof. The Legacy and Outback wagons especially have raised roofs, so you get a little more headroom that similar cars tend to offer.
I agree - they call the Outback the Sport Utility Wagon, but the Legacy GT is actually a LOT sporiter - bigger front brakes, quicker steering, shorter effective gearing, less weight, lower center of gravity, lower profile tires, and tighter suspension. Sportier in every way, basically.
Nothing is for sure until we see it. ;-)
Just rumors, but they seem to come up again and again (Legacy STi). I read about the Magnum SRT in a car mag.
-juice
There are other euro wagons like the MB E-class, but those are truly upper-crust mommy haulers and not sport wagons. The BMW wagons are nice but not very fun. Now the Audi S4 Avant or S6 wagon is another story but the price point is very high.
Outback made them popular. Absolutely.
-juice
Until the RS6 or the 545i wagons are released in the US, I settle for what I think is 'fun'.
BR
Peter
540iT (sport package + 18" M-sport wheels w/ S-03's)
What's odd is that a 540 with the sport package pays a gas guzzler tax, while the less efficient X5 does not, because of the truck loophole.
Lame. The 5er wagon is better in every way.
-juice
I've driven Suburbans in suspension-breaking rough country, but that's a lot of work, not sport. It was a truck fercryinoutloud, basically a panel truck with windows: truck frame, live axle, leaf springs, bias-belt lugged tires, high center of gravity, pair of rear doors. Not much fun to drive with numb loose steering, bouncy ride, and no grab handles, but sure could haul the goods and raise clouds of dust.
Also, wagons are built on car chassis, right? So imagine that: the "wagon" idea is now so trendy that GM is trying to slip the Suburban elephant into our little play tent?! So there's our answer: sport wagons ARE the wave of the future ;-)
And this forum provides useful opinions and evaluations on just what sort of "sport" that is!
In essence they make room for the rebates, but the price is not necessarily any lower than it was at the intro.
A Magnum Hemi for under $30k is IMO a good value. I bet in 2 years it will have $3000 cash back - but it will also retail for about $33k.
As with any new technology, it's probably wise to see how well it fares before taking the dive, that I agree with.
-juice
Rebates are a mixed bag, they kill residuals so it ends up costing the same in the end. I also think the automakers just increase prices (in some cases 6 times a year) to make room for those rebates.
-juice
Bob
Bob
According to Car and Driver, the Armada and Durango are very close in performance. Picking nits for the most part to say one is quicker than the other. Durango is slightly behind in 0-60, slightly ahead in the 1/4 mile.
I think performance is certainly a draw for the Magnum and I haven't heard anyone say the power was ho-hum unless perhaps they stepped out of an extremely high performance car. Granted some folks have different tastes in performance, but typically the powerband of a V8 matches my driving style well. My 4cyl VW diesel being the exception.
power and weight are only part of the equation. Gearing makes a HUGE difference. And, of course, the peak power numbers don't tell you about the entire power band, either.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
And yes, I do think people buy into the Hemi marketing even if they find the interior is cheap in their opinion. Priorities, I guess.
-juice
Dodge Magnum
Mazda 6
Ford Freestyle
Volkswagen Passat
Subaru Legacy
Luxury wagons
Audi A4 Avant
BMW 3 Series
Mercedes C Class
Volvo V50
Jaguar X Type
Thanks,
Michael
You might also stop in at the weekly Mazda chat tonight and see what folks there have to say!
PF Flyer
Host
News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles
The Mazda Mania Chat is on tonight. The chat room opens at 8:45PM ET Hope to see YOU there! Check out the schedule
As the the "Hemi fad", it's firing on all cylinders here. Chrysler 300C's are all over the place (I see several each day), along with "tuned" Accords, Hummers, Excursions and plentiful oversized vehicles, each with only one person inside. Do they care about gas prices? I doubt it.
The A3 is quite small, I went to see one at Rockville Audi. It has not been prepped and their demo was wrecked, so I could not test drive it. I imagine the 2.0 FSI feels a lot different than the 'bu's V6. Lighter and sportier.
The Maxx can pass as a family vehicle, it's a lot bigger, tons more rear legroom. I've only driven the sedan, but handling is on the soft side. The V6 is torquey, though.
-juice
if anyone here does compare two as driving, etc., will enjoy hearing about it!
Someone shopping at a Subaru store is most certainly looking for AWD, so this apples-to-apples would have been a better comparison IMO.
-juice
Or am I not in step with the average consumer here?
;-]
-juice
-juice
Compacts are where it's at.
:-]
Other countries you get a compact with tight suspension, direct steering, and good power. Takes some skill but lots of fun. Pretty much any import manufacturer makes a sport compact. American companies started doing it too, because no one outside the US wants a Camaro.
In the US, car companies market V8s with marshmallow suspensions, slushy sticks, and wiggly wheels, and call it "performance." Absolutely no skill required. Just glue a rocket to your tail and light it. Just try not to do anything like turn or brake.
The thing is, once you've drived one of the import sporties, it's hard to go back to one of those straight-line, hum-drum tail-rockets.