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Comments
If you don't have, or don't qualify for a fleet code he's not interested.
I doubt that many so-called "fleet managers" that answer internet requests actually sell to many fleets. It sure sounds good to be dealing with a "fleet manager" though, doesn't it?
That's a pretty small fleet if you ask me. Most internet sales guys and gals are paid on volume plus bonuses.
; )
Mackabee
I'll be shopping again soon and wonder if much has changed since I was last shopping 4 years ago. At that time, I sent my best offer to the general email address at several dealerships. Not sure who ended up reading it but no one was prepared to send an email quote back. When I followed up with a phone call, one reluctantly agreed they would accept my offer (I guess they waited for me to call to see if I was really serious).
I don't think a lot has changed; most places here still don't seem to want to do business over the phone or through email - everyone wants you to "come on down and let's talk".
Don't make an offer. Ask for a quote, instead; and try to make sure there's a car in inventory which matches your quote request.
Expand your search to dealers within comfortable driving range. You make the call about how far you're willing to drive; but, obviously, the larger the radius, the more dealers, AND the greater market competition.
Use the dealer's website - get's you an inventory search a lot of times AND assures you that the internet guy gets your quote request.
Use the manufacturer's website to locate dealers. Quick links to dealers more likely to 'get' internet selling.
When I say places don't seem to want to do business over the net, I mean the net isn't a big tool for them. The dealerships I emailed? When I made my follow-up phone calls regarding my offer, I think a couple of them had to go into email to read it for the first time - they had no one regularly monitoring the email queue! And some dealerships' web sites are really scarce and not regularly updated. The ones I've looked at won't have anything as sophisticated as an online inventory. All in all, pretty frustrating. Apparently I'm a 21st century car shopper living in a 20th century car market !!!
Bidding VS. Negotiations
The difference between a bid and a negotiation can be a better price. Most individual buyers don't think the difference can be considerable - unless they know the difference.
Through interviews with people looking to get a new car or truck, I have unearthed many assumptions on how a bid system works in sales and on the internet. Many think it is like a reverse auction; where as the dealers bid on a car they get instant feedback by hearing other dealers' lower bids. In that scenario, the most competitive or desperate seller can re-bid lower and lower. Many buyers also hold the misassumption that some conversation took place with the bid that hopefully would lower the price even more.
Open a dictionary and look up the definition of bid. Most likely you'll find something like, "An offer or proposal of a price." When it comes to automobile leasing and buying, here's how it works:
·Dealers in the customer's area are asked to make a bid.
·The dealers may or may not have the car in stock or may choose not to participate.
·Once the selling dealers reply with offer (bid) they receive no information regarding to the quality or position of their bid.
·The dealer is not asked to rebid.
·There is little competitive feedback.
·The customer receives the bids.
·To further improve your position, you must negotiate
The proliferation of the internet has created a new type of buyer. This buyer contacts 10 to 30 or more dealers and requests a bid. Carbargains.org are Priceline.com are examples of substantially bid-based services. Bid requests are typically funneled to the dealership's Internet Manager. Often, the Internet Manager responds with the "Internet Discount Price," the dealer's usual bid. It's not the lowest price, but it may still be a good price. To further improve your position, you must negotiate.
I gotcha. I lived just south of you for a couple of years and can see where low population density might have that effect. LOL, the whole of ND had a smaller population than the county where I live now.
That was kinda hard to follow. What did you get out of it? Is it saying you should negotiate after you get your bids back? That makes sense. Unfortunately as has been mentioned many times on edmunds and it appears eddie has run into the same thing, it is hard to get that first quote to start negotiating. Most dealers are reluctant to throw out a price to be shopped. I found it very frustrating last year when i was trying to get car price quotes by email. No one wanted to respond.
Think about the market you're trying to net shop in. Eddie says he lives in Manitoba, the large city being Winnipeg (610K population). That contrasts with my market (1 mil in the county, 3 state capitals within 3 hours) where I net shopped successfully.
It seems reasonable to me that you may have to really expand your search area if you hope to benefit from market competition.
Where are you located?
FWIW, my experience was much easier than what you and Eddie have run into, much more similar to what Asafonov found. He was shopping in the Minneapolis market.
Neat thing about the SE (I'm in Memphis) is that a day's drive will get you to LOTS of different markets and dealerships.
Interesting.
I've definitely run into the problem where dealers won't give quotes because they're not in the business of "keeping other dealers honest" as one salesman put it. So you have to walk in and spend a gruelling hour or so with them before you find out what their best price is. So you find out anyway, but they insist you work for it.
Maybe they're counting on most customers being so exasperated by then that they agree to the last offer just to get it over with, but I'll likely take that quote and see if I can do better at another place. I have a lot of endurance for this sort of thing. After all, five-hundred bucks is five-hundred bucks right?
For the most part Edmunds TMV and Cars direct prices track, but wonder how they track with rolling up to a dealership with check book in hand ready to buy.
I agree with jaeger that you can use carsdirect to get an idea of a starting point. You can always tell the saleman, well I will just order it on carsdirect for $xx,xxx.
My experience has been that carsdirect will increase their price a few hundred when there is a rebate, or if there is a factory to dealer incentive they do not give you all of it.
I have real world experience with an suv. If you were just bouncing around the internet and looked at carsdirect, the suv I was looking at had a carsdirect price of $1,000 below invoice. Their was no rebate involved. So joe internet thinks, wow, $1000 below invoice and clicks Buy It Now.
But by using all resources available, including my local paper and a few phone calls, I was able to determine the real factory to dealer incentive was $2000 and dealers were giving all of it to move the suv I was looking at. So the final deal I got was $2000 below invoice.
Fast forward to today. I am looking at a few cars. One is a toyota. Carsdirect has it for $900 below their invoice (their invoice includes a few hundred dollars for advertising, they are actually $250 below edmunds invoice price) and there is a $1000 rebate on top of that. I have just started negotiating, but it will be hard to get a toyota dealer to agree to below edmunds invoice and me keep the rebate due to toyota's tda fees and regional fees. The jury is still out on whether carsdirect will try to spring the regional fee and a dealer doc fee in at the end. If you read the fine print about the pricing it is ambiguous. I have called twice and gotten two different conflicting answers to this question. Currently I have an offer from a local dealer just a little below the carsdirect price and I think the dealer and I are on the same sheet a music regarding fees, and rebates, but not sure. I think I am pretty close to the bottom price. If I am lucky I may be able to get a few hundred more.
I do not even bother with TMV. I always shop from invoice up and try to avoid very hot selling cars that demand MSRP. If TMV is a few hundred above invoice I am sure you can get it down close to invoice with a little negotiation.
I have another email offer that is at my target price and they say no doc fee. My prefered dealer says that no one can match his price and they will try to add a doc fee or include the rebate when I go in to place the order. I told him i would not play those games with them. I have a very detailed email with the pricing and totals that the salesman agreed to in email. I am going to try and get a complete buyers order signed by the salesman and his manager at my target drive out price.
Wish me luck.
Good Luck!
He's also right, there's always something extra that shows up on the buyer's order.
In my case, negotiating an OTD price didn't keep the doc fee extra from showing up on the buyer's order. Having the clear OTD agreement in place helped, though; there was no room for the dealer to wiggle. Mats and muds near cost got us both OTD with faces saved.
P.S. Thanks for the straight info, TK. My *lying [non-permissible content removed]* explained they needed to charge the $279 as part their web hosting agreement. I thought that was hooey. LOL, imagine! Compliance with the law being something to conceal. Sheesh!
Frankly, I didn't believe it when my apartment board told me about the law when I applied to live there. Only after I heard it there, here, and from a friend who sells mobile homes did it sink in that this was the real deal. All the same, lying because it's more believeable than truth don't make it right.... I stick by my decision, and fear no BBB! Maybe your guy decided, as Henry Rollins once put it, that a lie is stronger than truth. BTW, my absolute pet peeve is dealers who don't put their fees in OTD numbers..... Whizzes me right off.... How am I supposed to comte fairly when my price "looks" a few hundred dollars higher? Whenever I qoute an OTD, you can show up with a check drawn out to the penny, and empty pockets. I wish all others did the same. I'd actually like to see legislation regarding "OTD" numbers.
IMHO, folks who didn't get the value of an inconvenient truth over a convenient lie passed kindergarten on the strength of their looks or because they came to school on the short bus. LOL (and seriously, too), they oughta be working in sheltered workshops or the porn industry.
I get the competition probs. FWIW, I think the fix is legislative, too, but not about OTD. Lacking licensure legislation with real teeth AND industry promulgated ethics codes, OTD legislation will simply prompt more 'work arounds' like with the doc fees.
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave . . ."
The practice of deception needs to be nailed directly and nailed hard rather than squandering resources on web weaving.
My salesguy - I actually liked him. He was simply doing as he'd been trained, IMO; it just didn't work with me. I'd like to see the folks who trained him horsewhipped, though.
That being said, I probably would not mind a $50 or $100 doc fee. That is way more reasonable to me than $399 or more. By the time you calculate tax on that it is close to $500. I am not going to squabble with the guy over $100, as evidence by my accepting his offer that was $43 above my best quote on the car itself. Now if he wants to charge me the fee and lower the price $399, thats fine.
On to the lowball guy tommorrow to see what he says.
Try to get a total price, and be prepared with your reaction to any additional charges.
LOL, negotiate the doc fee issue and everything else you can think of, and there'll be a charge for something no rational person could possibly anticipate. In these days of 'puter printers, you could see a buyer's order form 'pre-printed' to show an additional charge labeled "Negative Discount".
I think you've just answered the question as to why they exist - because people will pay them.
Some people will pay 1/2 (i.e. $139.50), to rescue a deal if the *lying [non-permissible content removed]* who came up with the doc fee in the first place will throw in a free set of floor mats and mud guards costing about the same ($122 + shipping) ordered over the net.
Anybody with any sense doesn't give a durn whether the dealer labels $.22 or $2200 doc fee, negative discount, or gratuity as long as the total price on the car doesn't change.
I bet those folks who just pay 'em feel other than warm fuzzies when they find out it's just another method to boost dealer profit.
Pet peeves:
1)All airline tickets should be exchangable or refundable, before the flight.
2)My el cheapo HP printer should come with a 1 year warranty vs a 90 day warranty.
3)I should be able to return a computer to a retailer with in 30 days without a restocking fee.
4)Toyota should offer roadside assistance during the warranty period like every other manufacturer does (see how I cleverly brought the post back on topic?..LOL)
I have two choices, I can stick by my "believes" and never do business with any of these industries (that would be a weird life), or I can do the best I can with what is out there.
I have choosen the second choice. I will try to go to another dealer and whittle the deal down so that dealer number one has to match it. If he doesn't, oh well, I gave him a chance.
The way I've shopped before (and the way I will again very soon) is to offer an OTD cost. If the dealer wants to charge me $10,000 for doc fees, or TDA, or freight, or whatever, he's free to do so as long as the bottom line doesn't change. It's a whole lot easier for both you and the dealer to only have to worry about two numbers: what you're willing to fork over and what he's willing to accept. Once you make the two numbers match, he can then "write it up" any way he chooses.
This likely won't change what you end up paying for the car, but you'll get to that point a whole lot quicker.
Of course, nobody on edmunds would fall for a dealers razzle-dazzle.
15 minutes for a negotiation? Why do you drag it out so long, Audia? We usually get our offer accepted or rejected within 5 minutes.
I thanked him for his time and told him that I hadn't made my mind up yet on who will get the listing, but if I decide on him I would indeed expect the $195 fee to not be charged to me.
I assume that car dealers are competent professionals. They know how much they will sell a car for, and don't need 10 minutes to think about it. We always get an answer in less than 5 minutes.
Of course, we live in the Virginia suburbs of Washington D.C. where people are, for the most part, very courteous. The car dealers don't want to waste our time. If our offer is too low, they tell us without delay.
For the record, on the car I bought 4 yrs ago the final invoice showed I paid sticker (!!!), paid the regular doc fee, but got an obscene amount for my trade-in (about $1700 more than it was worth). Like I said, once we agree to a price they can write it up any way they want.
I think 15 minutes is a very do-able length of time once you start negotiating. When I encountered one salesman who wasn't prepared to budge at all, I found out within 5 minutes and walked out.
With net shopping, even if the dealer will fax or e-mail a buyer's order, you just don't know the negotiation is over 'till you go in to sign the papers and get the car. Of course, the same is true of a showroom negotiated deal.
With the net, the gains are that you can more easily tell when the dealer's done playing games and when he's not AND that you can more quickly find a dealer who keeps the games to a minimum.
I agree OTD is the way to go, but timadams gives a great example of how these things creep into any purchase. At dealer one I told him what I expected for the car price and the OTD. He was the one that wanted to show me how it was all broken down and charged.
rivertown---"With net shopping, even if the dealer will fax or e-mail a buyer's order, you just don't know the negotiation is over 'till you go in to sign the papers and get the car."...exactly, I am trying to avoid this upfront.