I don't know if this question has been asked but here goes: A lot of advice suggests calling a dealership and asking for the fleet manager (in the absence of an internet sales guy). The theory is that he is likely not on commission and doesn't have a lot of time to waste so he'll cut to the chase and offer a good deal right off the bat. Sounds great, but my question is, why would he even want to talk to Joe Consumer who is only interested in buying one car, not buying or leasing a "fleet", as is his job? Why would he bother with you at all?
At our store he wouldn't. He doesn't get paid commission so he is totally uninterested in helping Joe Schmoe get an invoice deal on a car that we have to ship in and who has to inspect it being unloaded off the transport truck.
If you don't have, or don't qualify for a fleet code he's not interested.
I doubt that many so-called "fleet managers" that answer internet requests actually sell to many fleets. It sure sounds good to be dealing with a "fleet manager" though, doesn't it?
When I get calls like that first words out of my mouth are "How many Tacomas will you be buying?" phone line usually goes silent "Uh, just one." That's a pretty small fleet if you ask me. Most internet sales guys and gals are paid on volume plus bonuses. ; ) Mackabee
I deal with internet sales managers or Fleet Managers all the time. Regardless if he really is a Fleet manager I don't care. All I am after is saving myself money and time. I have dealt with the seasonal car salesmen and internet sales managers and so called Fleet Managers and in each individual case I have always saved more time and money with internet and fleet managers. On a average I buy about 150 auto's a month. Sure it could help that they know me really well now but when I first started my business some time ago I still got the same results. So stick with the so called Fleet managers or internet sales managers. whew...lol
I am not a dealer. I don't sell autos. I am sure you can imagine what I am but I don't want to start a big fuss around here. I just enjoy reading post and trying to give my two cents sometimes. Thanks....:)
Thanks for your honest (but naturally disappointing) answers.
I'll be shopping again soon and wonder if much has changed since I was last shopping 4 years ago. At that time, I sent my best offer to the general email address at several dealerships. Not sure who ended up reading it but no one was prepared to send an email quote back. When I followed up with a phone call, one reluctantly agreed they would accept my offer (I guess they waited for me to call to see if I was really serious).
I don't think a lot has changed; most places here still don't seem to want to do business over the phone or through email - everyone wants you to "come on down and let's talk".
Don't make an offer. Ask for a quote, instead; and try to make sure there's a car in inventory which matches your quote request.
Expand your search to dealers within comfortable driving range. You make the call about how far you're willing to drive; but, obviously, the larger the radius, the more dealers, AND the greater market competition.
Use the dealer's website - get's you an inventory search a lot of times AND assures you that the internet guy gets your quote request.
Use the manufacturer's website to locate dealers. Quick links to dealers more likely to 'get' internet selling.
Thanks for the advice. I don't disagree with any of it but . . .
When I say places don't seem to want to do business over the net, I mean the net isn't a big tool for them. The dealerships I emailed? When I made my follow-up phone calls regarding my offer, I think a couple of them had to go into email to read it for the first time - they had no one regularly monitoring the email queue! And some dealerships' web sites are really scarce and not regularly updated. The ones I've looked at won't have anything as sophisticated as an online inventory. All in all, pretty frustrating. Apparently I'm a 21st century car shopper living in a 20th century car market !!!
thought may be of some help to some people. Enjoy.
Bidding VS. Negotiations
The difference between a bid and a negotiation can be a better price. Most individual buyers don't think the difference can be considerable - unless they know the difference.
Through interviews with people looking to get a new car or truck, I have unearthed many assumptions on how a bid system works in sales and on the internet. Many think it is like a reverse auction; where as the dealers bid on a car they get instant feedback by hearing other dealers' lower bids. In that scenario, the most competitive or desperate seller can re-bid lower and lower. Many buyers also hold the misassumption that some conversation took place with the bid that hopefully would lower the price even more.
Open a dictionary and look up the definition of bid. Most likely you'll find something like, "An offer or proposal of a price." When it comes to automobile leasing and buying, here's how it works:
·Dealers in the customer's area are asked to make a bid. ·The dealers may or may not have the car in stock or may choose not to participate. ·Once the selling dealers reply with offer (bid) they receive no information regarding to the quality or position of their bid. ·The dealer is not asked to rebid. ·There is little competitive feedback. ·The customer receives the bids. ·To further improve your position, you must negotiate
The proliferation of the internet has created a new type of buyer. This buyer contacts 10 to 30 or more dealers and requests a bid. Carbargains.org are Priceline.com are examples of substantially bid-based services. Bid requests are typically funneled to the dealership's Internet Manager. Often, the Internet Manager responds with the "Internet Discount Price," the dealer's usual bid. It's not the lowest price, but it may still be a good price. To further improve your position, you must negotiate.
I gotcha. I lived just south of you for a couple of years and can see where low population density might have that effect. LOL, the whole of ND had a smaller population than the county where I live now.
You might want to quote your website source to give credit.
That was kinda hard to follow. What did you get out of it? Is it saying you should negotiate after you get your bids back? That makes sense. Unfortunately as has been mentioned many times on edmunds and it appears eddie has run into the same thing, it is hard to get that first quote to start negotiating. Most dealers are reluctant to throw out a price to be shopped. I found it very frustrating last year when i was trying to get car price quotes by email. No one wanted to respond.
Dunno whether it matters, but . . . Think about the market you're trying to net shop in. Eddie says he lives in Manitoba, the large city being Winnipeg (610K population). That contrasts with my market (1 mil in the county, 3 state capitals within 3 hours) where I net shopped successfully. It seems reasonable to me that you may have to really expand your search area if you hope to benefit from market competition. Where are you located?
FWIW, my experience was much easier than what you and Eddie have run into, much more similar to what Asafonov found. He was shopping in the Minneapolis market.
I am in a very large SE city. One problem I ran into was that I was looking for a premium brand, only 4 stores in my city and two of them are owned by the same company. Fortunately the vehicle I bought was heavily discounted and this was reflected in local ad prices. The ads were $2000 below invoice and there were not many options on the vehicle so it was easy to tell what they were advertising. What was weird was that they were very specific about the color they would sell me. Only one color. Two tones cost more, but they also wanted to charge me more for any other solid color.
I bought Honda (more of a 'commodity' car?) and a model in serious oversupply at the time, and I got more serious replies from dealers further away. Neat thing about the SE (I'm in Memphis) is that a day's drive will get you to LOTS of different markets and dealerships.
Yep, good ol' Winnipeg. I was (and am) shopping for a Toyota and there are 4 in town, and another 4 within 2 hrs drive. So that gives me 8 possible dealers.
I've definitely run into the problem where dealers won't give quotes because they're not in the business of "keeping other dealers honest" as one salesman put it. So you have to walk in and spend a gruelling hour or so with them before you find out what their best price is. So you find out anyway, but they insist you work for it.
Maybe they're counting on most customers being so exasperated by then that they agree to the last offer just to get it over with, but I'll likely take that quote and see if I can do better at another place. I have a lot of endurance for this sort of thing. After all, five-hundred bucks is five-hundred bucks right?
I guess it could be but Edmunds is fully aware of who I am and I am sure some other people are to. But I am not here anymore to argue back and forth with dealers I am only here to learn and maybe help a few people here and there. Pretty observant though aren't you? Take care prodigalsun.
Its all in how you present your email to the dealers. If you sound like a tire kicker of course they won't waste there time most of there time but if you say that your ready to buy right now, cash in hand ect ect most of the time I have had great success with price responses. But I have to agree with you the first couple times that I did use email they were kind of reluctant. I would advise calling them first and letting them know what your up to.
Anyone have a comment on how prices from someone like Cars Direct compare to real world, traditional sales methods.
For the most part Edmunds TMV and Cars direct prices track, but wonder how they track with rolling up to a dealership with check book in hand ready to buy.
I've used carsdirect to judge how low a dealer might be willing to go. I understand they're higher than they used to be, I guess they tired of losing money!
I agree somewhat with the statements above....just like with most things, it depends.
I agree with jaeger that you can use carsdirect to get an idea of a starting point. You can always tell the saleman, well I will just order it on carsdirect for $xx,xxx.
My experience has been that carsdirect will increase their price a few hundred when there is a rebate, or if there is a factory to dealer incentive they do not give you all of it.
I have real world experience with an suv. If you were just bouncing around the internet and looked at carsdirect, the suv I was looking at had a carsdirect price of $1,000 below invoice. Their was no rebate involved. So joe internet thinks, wow, $1000 below invoice and clicks Buy It Now.
But by using all resources available, including my local paper and a few phone calls, I was able to determine the real factory to dealer incentive was $2000 and dealers were giving all of it to move the suv I was looking at. So the final deal I got was $2000 below invoice.
Fast forward to today. I am looking at a few cars. One is a toyota. Carsdirect has it for $900 below their invoice (their invoice includes a few hundred dollars for advertising, they are actually $250 below edmunds invoice price) and there is a $1000 rebate on top of that. I have just started negotiating, but it will be hard to get a toyota dealer to agree to below edmunds invoice and me keep the rebate due to toyota's tda fees and regional fees. The jury is still out on whether carsdirect will try to spring the regional fee and a dealer doc fee in at the end. If you read the fine print about the pricing it is ambiguous. I have called twice and gotten two different conflicting answers to this question. Currently I have an offer from a local dealer just a little below the carsdirect price and I think the dealer and I are on the same sheet a music regarding fees, and rebates, but not sure. I think I am pretty close to the bottom price. If I am lucky I may be able to get a few hundred more.
I do not even bother with TMV. I always shop from invoice up and try to avoid very hot selling cars that demand MSRP. If TMV is a few hundred above invoice I am sure you can get it down close to invoice with a little negotiation.
Talked to my prefered dealer last night. he got within $43 of my target price on the car price. However he has a $399 doc fee that is added before taxes. he says he cannot remove this fee.
I have another email offer that is at my target price and they say no doc fee. My prefered dealer says that no one can match his price and they will try to add a doc fee or include the rebate when I go in to place the order. I told him i would not play those games with them. I have a very detailed email with the pricing and totals that the salesman agreed to in email. I am going to try and get a complete buyers order signed by the salesman and his manager at my target drive out price.
a dealer that didn't have SOME kind of fee. they tend to range from $35 to $1200 in some big metro areas. One local lot that boasts "No DOC Fees!" adds a $50 "Courthouse" Fee, plus $150 "Prep Fee," in the back office. That's why I always say deal in OTD numbers. For those curious about the "why's" of these fees, my observation indicates that they are, are you ready? Big secret...... Profit! (anyone surprised?) That said, it's usually the result of the dealer cost averaging the "cost of sale" on vehicles and applying it to each car to recoup some expenditures. Which makes it no less profit. In some states (like TN) the dealer cannot remove the fee for one customer and charge it to another. Check the final paperwork, and you'll see that the fee that was "removed" was subtracted from sale price, then added back as a fee. In our state this is a discrimination protection. (protects the dealer, not the consumer). In other states, there may be no such law. As I understand it (and this is mostly speculation, so keep the salt handy) the idea is to keep apartment complexes and car dealers from discouraging minority groups by things like "Yeah, we can process your renter's application...... $2000 Fee, though....." My guess is some bright lad in the state leg. decided to make this apply to car dealers (and mobile home dealers) as well. I actually think it's a really good law, but it does cause confusion.
When they refigured my deal, they took $139.50 plus the mat, mud stuff off the price of the car and showed a full $279 doc fee on the buyer's order.
He's also right, there's always something extra that shows up on the buyer's order.
In my case, negotiating an OTD price didn't keep the doc fee extra from showing up on the buyer's order. Having the clear OTD agreement in place helped, though; there was no room for the dealer to wiggle. Mats and muds near cost got us both OTD with faces saved.
P.S. Thanks for the straight info, TK. My *lying [non-permissible content removed]* explained they needed to charge the $279 as part their web hosting agreement. I thought that was hooey. LOL, imagine! Compliance with the law being something to conceal. Sheesh!
people feel a lie is more plausible than the truth. Had a case of that here recently. A dealer order went pear-shaped, and the truth of why it went crooked.... well,.... I wouldn't have believed it. It sounded like hooey. I even thought about saying something more plausible, b/c I KNEW the customer wouldn't believe it. Silly me, I told the truth. Got me my first formal letter of complaint and BBB inquiry. (The customer decided I had lied)
Frankly, I didn't believe it when my apartment board told me about the law when I applied to live there. Only after I heard it there, here, and from a friend who sells mobile homes did it sink in that this was the real deal. All the same, lying because it's more believeable than truth don't make it right.... I stick by my decision, and fear no BBB! Maybe your guy decided, as Henry Rollins once put it, that a lie is stronger than truth. BTW, my absolute pet peeve is dealers who don't put their fees in OTD numbers..... Whizzes me right off.... How am I supposed to comte fairly when my price "looks" a few hundred dollars higher? Whenever I qoute an OTD, you can show up with a check drawn out to the penny, and empty pockets. I wish all others did the same. I'd actually like to see legislation regarding "OTD" numbers.
IMHO, folks who didn't get the value of an inconvenient truth over a convenient lie passed kindergarten on the strength of their looks or because they came to school on the short bus. LOL (and seriously, too), they oughta be working in sheltered workshops or the porn industry.
I get the competition probs. FWIW, I think the fix is legislative, too, but not about OTD. Lacking licensure legislation with real teeth AND industry promulgated ethics codes, OTD legislation will simply prompt more 'work arounds' like with the doc fees. "Oh, what a tangled web we weave . . ." The practice of deception needs to be nailed directly and nailed hard rather than squandering resources on web weaving.
My salesguy - I actually liked him. He was simply doing as he'd been trained, IMO; it just didn't work with me. I'd like to see the folks who trained him horsewhipped, though.
Personally I do not believe in doc fees. What do they pay? The things a dealer has to do to stay in business. His selling price should include money to cover expenses and profit, period.
That being said, I probably would not mind a $50 or $100 doc fee. That is way more reasonable to me than $399 or more. By the time you calculate tax on that it is close to $500. I am not going to squabble with the guy over $100, as evidence by my accepting his offer that was $43 above my best quote on the car itself. Now if he wants to charge me the fee and lower the price $399, thats fine.
On to the lowball guy tommorrow to see what he says.
They've worked themselves into the position where the buyer's order for everyone has to show the same fee, in order to avoid a discrimination suit.
Try to get a total price, and be prepared with your reaction to any additional charges.
LOL, negotiate the doc fee issue and everything else you can think of, and there'll be a charge for something no rational person could possibly anticipate. In these days of 'puter printers, you could see a buyer's order form 'pre-printed' to show an additional charge labeled "Negative Discount".
Some people will pay 1/2 (i.e. $139.50), to rescue a deal if the *lying [non-permissible content removed]* who came up with the doc fee in the first place will throw in a free set of floor mats and mud guards costing about the same ($122 + shipping) ordered over the net.
Anybody with any sense doesn't give a durn whether the dealer labels $.22 or $2200 doc fee, negative discount, or gratuity as long as the total price on the car doesn't change.
I bet those folks who just pay 'em feel other than warm fuzzies when they find out it's just another method to boost dealer profit.
there are many things I do not believe are fair, but I have to live in the same world that you do, its called reality. All I was saying is it would be alot easier to swallow at $50 or $100, I probably would not even mention it to the guy. At $399 it is a deal stopper. See the difference?
Pet peeves: 1)All airline tickets should be exchangable or refundable, before the flight. 2)My el cheapo HP printer should come with a 1 year warranty vs a 90 day warranty. 3)I should be able to return a computer to a retailer with in 30 days without a restocking fee. 4)Toyota should offer roadside assistance during the warranty period like every other manufacturer does (see how I cleverly brought the post back on topic?..LOL)
I have two choices, I can stick by my "believes" and never do business with any of these industries (that would be a weird life), or I can do the best I can with what is out there.
I have choosen the second choice. I will try to go to another dealer and whittle the deal down so that dealer number one has to match it. If he doesn't, oh well, I gave him a chance.
I'm sure this has been said many times before in many forums . . . but who cares what the doc fee is? For that matter, what any fee is? My point is you could spend hours haggling over each individual cost. Why not just deal with an out-the-door cost? Do your research, do your calculations with tax and all that, then offer one price.
The way I've shopped before (and the way I will again very soon) is to offer an OTD cost. If the dealer wants to charge me $10,000 for doc fees, or TDA, or freight, or whatever, he's free to do so as long as the bottom line doesn't change. It's a whole lot easier for both you and the dealer to only have to worry about two numbers: what you're willing to fork over and what he's willing to accept. Once you make the two numbers match, he can then "write it up" any way he chooses.
This likely won't change what you end up paying for the car, but you'll get to that point a whole lot quicker.
If Dealer A sells a car for $10,000, plus a $5,000 doc fee, and dealer B sells the car for $16,000 and no doc fee, would you honestly buy from Dealer B? Working in true OTD numbers is the only way to fairly compare dealers' prices to one another. And, if upon your arrival to pay the agreed OTD, more fees pop up, the number wasn't OTD to begin with, and the dealer has lied to you.
I think you figured it out. I love it when somebody wants to negotiate every single line on a purchase....This way I can get them to trip up and my 20 years of negotiating experience will win....If a customer only worries about the bottom line its alot harder for the dealer to razzle-dazzle with a smoke show...Additionally the whole process should be over in about 15 minutes....
Of course, nobody on edmunds would fall for a dealers razzle-dazzle.
When we bought our last car, we offered $20300 OTD, and they accepted. When I saw the bill of sale, I noticed they had a lower price for the car than I expected, but added a doc fee of $300. However, the bottom line was $20300, and that is what we paid.
15 minutes for a negotiation? Why do you drag it out so long, Audia? We usually get our offer accepted or rejected within 5 minutes.
...is reasonable because it allows two trips to the sales manager - one for the initial bid and one for the final okay. I haven't ever dealt with a salesperson who could finalize the price without an okay.
Speaking of doc fees, I'm getting ready to sell my house. I'm interviewing sales agents to determine who gets the listing. One shows me all of the listing forms that needs filled out and writes up a "good faith estimate" of sales proceeds. Among the deductions are county transfer costs, sales commission and a $195 "Broker Administrative Fee". He looks at me all apologetic and explains that his brokerage adds a $195 fee for the cost of forms and handling paperwork. I couldn't help but laugh and ask him why the $15,000 estimated commission doesn't pay for his brokerage's administration of my home sale. He then sheepishly tells me that most salesmen will take that fee out of their own pocket if the sellers complain about it and want it off. So, in effect the commission is 6% PLUS $195.
I thanked him for his time and told him that I hadn't made my mind up yet on who will get the listing, but if I decide on him I would indeed expect the $195 fee to not be charged to me.
If we don't get a 'Yes' answer within 10 minutes after making an offer, we leave.
I assume that car dealers are competent professionals. They know how much they will sell a car for, and don't need 10 minutes to think about it. We always get an answer in less than 5 minutes.
Of course, we live in the Virginia suburbs of Washington D.C. where people are, for the most part, very courteous. The car dealers don't want to waste our time. If our offer is too low, they tell us without delay.
I'm glad to see people both within the industry and customers who agree OTD simplifies things greatly.
For the record, on the car I bought 4 yrs ago the final invoice showed I paid sticker (!!!), paid the regular doc fee, but got an obscene amount for my trade-in (about $1700 more than it was worth). Like I said, once we agree to a price they can write it up any way they want.
I think 15 minutes is a very do-able length of time once you start negotiating. When I encountered one salesman who wasn't prepared to budge at all, I found out within 5 minutes and walked out.
With net shopping, even if the dealer will fax or e-mail a buyer's order, you just don't know the negotiation is over 'till you go in to sign the papers and get the car. Of course, the same is true of a showroom negotiated deal.
With the net, the gains are that you can more easily tell when the dealer's done playing games and when he's not AND that you can more quickly find a dealer who keeps the games to a minimum.
The 15 minutes includes the deal approval, writting up the deal, filling out credit apps, collecting the deposit and telling the customer to come back in an hour for delivery.....only about 2 minutes for the actual deal approval if the numbers make sense...
Went to dealer number two, was in and out in about 20 minutes. I got a signed buyers order with an OTD price within $39 of the email price. This guy had a $389 doc fee but lowered the selling price of the car by $389. Dealer one is now $425 too high. I was expecting some discussion, but salesman number two just looked at his emails, worked some stuff on the computer and some books he had, wrote out the buyers order and then went over it with me. It went great.
I agree OTD is the way to go, but timadams gives a great example of how these things creep into any purchase. At dealer one I told him what I expected for the car price and the OTD. He was the one that wanted to show me how it was all broken down and charged.
rivertown---"With net shopping, even if the dealer will fax or e-mail a buyer's order, you just don't know the negotiation is over 'till you go in to sign the papers and get the car."...exactly, I am trying to avoid this upfront.
Comments
If you don't have, or don't qualify for a fleet code he's not interested.
I doubt that many so-called "fleet managers" that answer internet requests actually sell to many fleets. It sure sounds good to be dealing with a "fleet manager" though, doesn't it?
That's a pretty small fleet if you ask me. Most internet sales guys and gals are paid on volume plus bonuses.
; )
Mackabee
I'll be shopping again soon and wonder if much has changed since I was last shopping 4 years ago. At that time, I sent my best offer to the general email address at several dealerships. Not sure who ended up reading it but no one was prepared to send an email quote back. When I followed up with a phone call, one reluctantly agreed they would accept my offer (I guess they waited for me to call to see if I was really serious).
I don't think a lot has changed; most places here still don't seem to want to do business over the phone or through email - everyone wants you to "come on down and let's talk".
Don't make an offer. Ask for a quote, instead; and try to make sure there's a car in inventory which matches your quote request.
Expand your search to dealers within comfortable driving range. You make the call about how far you're willing to drive; but, obviously, the larger the radius, the more dealers, AND the greater market competition.
Use the dealer's website - get's you an inventory search a lot of times AND assures you that the internet guy gets your quote request.
Use the manufacturer's website to locate dealers. Quick links to dealers more likely to 'get' internet selling.
When I say places don't seem to want to do business over the net, I mean the net isn't a big tool for them. The dealerships I emailed? When I made my follow-up phone calls regarding my offer, I think a couple of them had to go into email to read it for the first time - they had no one regularly monitoring the email queue! And some dealerships' web sites are really scarce and not regularly updated. The ones I've looked at won't have anything as sophisticated as an online inventory. All in all, pretty frustrating. Apparently I'm a 21st century car shopper living in a 20th century car market !!!
Bidding VS. Negotiations
The difference between a bid and a negotiation can be a better price. Most individual buyers don't think the difference can be considerable - unless they know the difference.
Through interviews with people looking to get a new car or truck, I have unearthed many assumptions on how a bid system works in sales and on the internet. Many think it is like a reverse auction; where as the dealers bid on a car they get instant feedback by hearing other dealers' lower bids. In that scenario, the most competitive or desperate seller can re-bid lower and lower. Many buyers also hold the misassumption that some conversation took place with the bid that hopefully would lower the price even more.
Open a dictionary and look up the definition of bid. Most likely you'll find something like, "An offer or proposal of a price." When it comes to automobile leasing and buying, here's how it works:
·Dealers in the customer's area are asked to make a bid.
·The dealers may or may not have the car in stock or may choose not to participate.
·Once the selling dealers reply with offer (bid) they receive no information regarding to the quality or position of their bid.
·The dealer is not asked to rebid.
·There is little competitive feedback.
·The customer receives the bids.
·To further improve your position, you must negotiate
The proliferation of the internet has created a new type of buyer. This buyer contacts 10 to 30 or more dealers and requests a bid. Carbargains.org are Priceline.com are examples of substantially bid-based services. Bid requests are typically funneled to the dealership's Internet Manager. Often, the Internet Manager responds with the "Internet Discount Price," the dealer's usual bid. It's not the lowest price, but it may still be a good price. To further improve your position, you must negotiate.
I gotcha. I lived just south of you for a couple of years and can see where low population density might have that effect. LOL, the whole of ND had a smaller population than the county where I live now.
That was kinda hard to follow. What did you get out of it? Is it saying you should negotiate after you get your bids back? That makes sense. Unfortunately as has been mentioned many times on edmunds and it appears eddie has run into the same thing, it is hard to get that first quote to start negotiating. Most dealers are reluctant to throw out a price to be shopped. I found it very frustrating last year when i was trying to get car price quotes by email. No one wanted to respond.
Think about the market you're trying to net shop in. Eddie says he lives in Manitoba, the large city being Winnipeg (610K population). That contrasts with my market (1 mil in the county, 3 state capitals within 3 hours) where I net shopped successfully.
It seems reasonable to me that you may have to really expand your search area if you hope to benefit from market competition.
Where are you located?
FWIW, my experience was much easier than what you and Eddie have run into, much more similar to what Asafonov found. He was shopping in the Minneapolis market.
Neat thing about the SE (I'm in Memphis) is that a day's drive will get you to LOTS of different markets and dealerships.
Interesting.
I've definitely run into the problem where dealers won't give quotes because they're not in the business of "keeping other dealers honest" as one salesman put it. So you have to walk in and spend a gruelling hour or so with them before you find out what their best price is. So you find out anyway, but they insist you work for it.
Maybe they're counting on most customers being so exasperated by then that they agree to the last offer just to get it over with, but I'll likely take that quote and see if I can do better at another place. I have a lot of endurance for this sort of thing. After all, five-hundred bucks is five-hundred bucks right?
For the most part Edmunds TMV and Cars direct prices track, but wonder how they track with rolling up to a dealership with check book in hand ready to buy.
I agree with jaeger that you can use carsdirect to get an idea of a starting point. You can always tell the saleman, well I will just order it on carsdirect for $xx,xxx.
My experience has been that carsdirect will increase their price a few hundred when there is a rebate, or if there is a factory to dealer incentive they do not give you all of it.
I have real world experience with an suv. If you were just bouncing around the internet and looked at carsdirect, the suv I was looking at had a carsdirect price of $1,000 below invoice. Their was no rebate involved. So joe internet thinks, wow, $1000 below invoice and clicks Buy It Now.
But by using all resources available, including my local paper and a few phone calls, I was able to determine the real factory to dealer incentive was $2000 and dealers were giving all of it to move the suv I was looking at. So the final deal I got was $2000 below invoice.
Fast forward to today. I am looking at a few cars. One is a toyota. Carsdirect has it for $900 below their invoice (their invoice includes a few hundred dollars for advertising, they are actually $250 below edmunds invoice price) and there is a $1000 rebate on top of that. I have just started negotiating, but it will be hard to get a toyota dealer to agree to below edmunds invoice and me keep the rebate due to toyota's tda fees and regional fees. The jury is still out on whether carsdirect will try to spring the regional fee and a dealer doc fee in at the end. If you read the fine print about the pricing it is ambiguous. I have called twice and gotten two different conflicting answers to this question. Currently I have an offer from a local dealer just a little below the carsdirect price and I think the dealer and I are on the same sheet a music regarding fees, and rebates, but not sure. I think I am pretty close to the bottom price. If I am lucky I may be able to get a few hundred more.
I do not even bother with TMV. I always shop from invoice up and try to avoid very hot selling cars that demand MSRP. If TMV is a few hundred above invoice I am sure you can get it down close to invoice with a little negotiation.
I have another email offer that is at my target price and they say no doc fee. My prefered dealer says that no one can match his price and they will try to add a doc fee or include the rebate when I go in to place the order. I told him i would not play those games with them. I have a very detailed email with the pricing and totals that the salesman agreed to in email. I am going to try and get a complete buyers order signed by the salesman and his manager at my target drive out price.
Wish me luck.
Good Luck!
He's also right, there's always something extra that shows up on the buyer's order.
In my case, negotiating an OTD price didn't keep the doc fee extra from showing up on the buyer's order. Having the clear OTD agreement in place helped, though; there was no room for the dealer to wiggle. Mats and muds near cost got us both OTD with faces saved.
P.S. Thanks for the straight info, TK. My *lying [non-permissible content removed]* explained they needed to charge the $279 as part their web hosting agreement. I thought that was hooey. LOL, imagine! Compliance with the law being something to conceal. Sheesh!
Frankly, I didn't believe it when my apartment board told me about the law when I applied to live there. Only after I heard it there, here, and from a friend who sells mobile homes did it sink in that this was the real deal. All the same, lying because it's more believeable than truth don't make it right.... I stick by my decision, and fear no BBB! Maybe your guy decided, as Henry Rollins once put it, that a lie is stronger than truth. BTW, my absolute pet peeve is dealers who don't put their fees in OTD numbers..... Whizzes me right off.... How am I supposed to comte fairly when my price "looks" a few hundred dollars higher? Whenever I qoute an OTD, you can show up with a check drawn out to the penny, and empty pockets. I wish all others did the same. I'd actually like to see legislation regarding "OTD" numbers.
IMHO, folks who didn't get the value of an inconvenient truth over a convenient lie passed kindergarten on the strength of their looks or because they came to school on the short bus. LOL (and seriously, too), they oughta be working in sheltered workshops or the porn industry.
I get the competition probs. FWIW, I think the fix is legislative, too, but not about OTD. Lacking licensure legislation with real teeth AND industry promulgated ethics codes, OTD legislation will simply prompt more 'work arounds' like with the doc fees.
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave . . ."
The practice of deception needs to be nailed directly and nailed hard rather than squandering resources on web weaving.
My salesguy - I actually liked him. He was simply doing as he'd been trained, IMO; it just didn't work with me. I'd like to see the folks who trained him horsewhipped, though.
That being said, I probably would not mind a $50 or $100 doc fee. That is way more reasonable to me than $399 or more. By the time you calculate tax on that it is close to $500. I am not going to squabble with the guy over $100, as evidence by my accepting his offer that was $43 above my best quote on the car itself. Now if he wants to charge me the fee and lower the price $399, thats fine.
On to the lowball guy tommorrow to see what he says.
Try to get a total price, and be prepared with your reaction to any additional charges.
LOL, negotiate the doc fee issue and everything else you can think of, and there'll be a charge for something no rational person could possibly anticipate. In these days of 'puter printers, you could see a buyer's order form 'pre-printed' to show an additional charge labeled "Negative Discount".
I think you've just answered the question as to why they exist - because people will pay them.
Some people will pay 1/2 (i.e. $139.50), to rescue a deal if the *lying [non-permissible content removed]* who came up with the doc fee in the first place will throw in a free set of floor mats and mud guards costing about the same ($122 + shipping) ordered over the net.
Anybody with any sense doesn't give a durn whether the dealer labels $.22 or $2200 doc fee, negative discount, or gratuity as long as the total price on the car doesn't change.
I bet those folks who just pay 'em feel other than warm fuzzies when they find out it's just another method to boost dealer profit.
Pet peeves:
1)All airline tickets should be exchangable or refundable, before the flight.
2)My el cheapo HP printer should come with a 1 year warranty vs a 90 day warranty.
3)I should be able to return a computer to a retailer with in 30 days without a restocking fee.
4)Toyota should offer roadside assistance during the warranty period like every other manufacturer does (see how I cleverly brought the post back on topic?..LOL)
I have two choices, I can stick by my "believes" and never do business with any of these industries (that would be a weird life), or I can do the best I can with what is out there.
I have choosen the second choice. I will try to go to another dealer and whittle the deal down so that dealer number one has to match it. If he doesn't, oh well, I gave him a chance.
The way I've shopped before (and the way I will again very soon) is to offer an OTD cost. If the dealer wants to charge me $10,000 for doc fees, or TDA, or freight, or whatever, he's free to do so as long as the bottom line doesn't change. It's a whole lot easier for both you and the dealer to only have to worry about two numbers: what you're willing to fork over and what he's willing to accept. Once you make the two numbers match, he can then "write it up" any way he chooses.
This likely won't change what you end up paying for the car, but you'll get to that point a whole lot quicker.
Of course, nobody on edmunds would fall for a dealers razzle-dazzle.
15 minutes for a negotiation? Why do you drag it out so long, Audia? We usually get our offer accepted or rejected within 5 minutes.
I thanked him for his time and told him that I hadn't made my mind up yet on who will get the listing, but if I decide on him I would indeed expect the $195 fee to not be charged to me.
I assume that car dealers are competent professionals. They know how much they will sell a car for, and don't need 10 minutes to think about it. We always get an answer in less than 5 minutes.
Of course, we live in the Virginia suburbs of Washington D.C. where people are, for the most part, very courteous. The car dealers don't want to waste our time. If our offer is too low, they tell us without delay.
For the record, on the car I bought 4 yrs ago the final invoice showed I paid sticker (!!!), paid the regular doc fee, but got an obscene amount for my trade-in (about $1700 more than it was worth). Like I said, once we agree to a price they can write it up any way they want.
I think 15 minutes is a very do-able length of time once you start negotiating. When I encountered one salesman who wasn't prepared to budge at all, I found out within 5 minutes and walked out.
With net shopping, even if the dealer will fax or e-mail a buyer's order, you just don't know the negotiation is over 'till you go in to sign the papers and get the car. Of course, the same is true of a showroom negotiated deal.
With the net, the gains are that you can more easily tell when the dealer's done playing games and when he's not AND that you can more quickly find a dealer who keeps the games to a minimum.
I agree OTD is the way to go, but timadams gives a great example of how these things creep into any purchase. At dealer one I told him what I expected for the car price and the OTD. He was the one that wanted to show me how it was all broken down and charged.
rivertown---"With net shopping, even if the dealer will fax or e-mail a buyer's order, you just don't know the negotiation is over 'till you go in to sign the papers and get the car."...exactly, I am trying to avoid this upfront.