I do more resarch than most of you guys and when I am done I go to a dealer and ask one, and only one, question; what is your best price? If it is acceptable we have a deal, if not I move on. Every capitalist organization exists to maximize profit. Some are just more irritating about it than others. I have been a car enthusiast for 50 years. That is separate and apart from my continuing dislike for the retail selling process which leaves many customers feeling abused, cheated and just plain angry. So all of you who enjoy spending copius amounts of time negotiating a car deal, have at it. I prefer a store where every customer pays the same price for the same item. Seems more ethical to me somehow.
I can appreciate your method of negotiating and the fact that you like fixed priced selling.
But to look at the other side for a moment, it is more common than not for a consumer to walk in and say "I don't like to haggle, just give me your best price and I'll buy it". So the salesman drops his pants only to have the customer say "If you take off another $3000, I'll buy it. Now it has turned into a 3 hour ordeal convincing the customer that it was your best price to start with. It is a no win situation.
To address the "lettuce or suit" vs. car argument, most of the "fixed price" items we consumers normally deal with are under $500. So even if the fixed price is really gouging the customer, we're only talking $250 which for most people isn't too bad. For groceries and such, even if the seller is making a 50% profit, that might only work out to 50 cents. If we try to apply that fixed price to high price items like cars, then the average buyer would probably end up paying $2000+ more for their car than they do today. Even though the uncertainty and confrontation makes the car buying process harder than fixed price buying, I personally would rather stick to negotiating prices on items like cars and homes.
I can certainly see your point and that is why I asked. My take is that it is a little preemptive hooey fighting. If you believe I can go thru the entire car buying process with a dealer being completely honest on every account and not spouting any hooey back at me, then I have a Pacer I want you to take a look at. I want to make sure they know I am serious and that I am looking for a great price. I do not want to waste my time or theirs with multiple emails or phone calls. Any suggestions?
tk-- you bring up some very good points. Thanks for your very constructive insights and questions. Let me tell you my situation and wants as a customer and maybe that will help. The car I want will probably not be available exactly as I want it on a lot. I have no problem ordering it and thankfully my car is made in th US by a foreign maker. Dealer said abour 40 days on an order. I will list my options out and say no extra options. I will also state that i am fine ordering the car. If I email you I would expect to be responded by email unless I say otherwise. I would assume that the dealers internet dept sells cars for $x over invoice. If model B (on the lot) is $100 over invoice, I would expect that the dealer could look up invoice pricing for the options I want (even if their order system does not allow that, they can use edmunds) and configure model C and quote me a price of $100 over invoice on ordering the car. This does not seem too difficult to me. I understand this may not work for cars made overseas with long order times.
You also bring up a great point about configurations. I have a feeling I may have this problem with my car. The manufacturer site makes me order a sunroof that i do not want in order to get an option package that I do want. All other websites, like edmunds, kbb, carsdirect, do not make me order the sunroof. Even a dealer site that linked to chromedata did not make me order the sunroof. i called the mfr 800 number and they said they did not see anything that would make me order the sunroof either. So I am keeping my fingers crossed and hoping it was a website glitch. Whats even weirder is that the mfr site lists the sunroof as std eqp on the trim level that I am looking at.
In conclusion. Do not call me, bad impression on me. Email me with any questions. Do not send a price on a close model, again a bad impression that you are trying to sell me something off the lot. Price it using readily available website info. Please include any ad or doc fees that your dealership charges on top of price. If it is a config issue or an invoice pricing issue, I guess that needs to be handled on a case by case bassis. Again this is just my opinions. I may be your one wierd buyer, don't know. Hope this helps some.
A dealership representative cannot price a car from internet web pages. They must use factory issued order guides with up to the minute pricing.
I can understand that you do not want to pay doc fees, but advertising fees are a valid charge on the invoice on all vehicles.
It seems to me if my memory serves me correctly that Toyota is building a new V6 Camry that comes standard with a sunroof. Someone will correct me if I am wrong.
Thanks for sharing your side of the experience. I believe that "Honesty is the best policy", so in this case you just e-mail me back and explain the trim/option/color issue and give me a number of "specific" choices to make so that you can give me a price.
Also when you give me a price quote, please itemize ALL the fees/charges in order for me to be sure there are no surprises when we close the deal. And do NOT even mention dealer-installed options and 'extras' -- it's a great turn off for informed internet customers!
First, lemme say that from reading your stuff on the boards my take is that you're a straight shooter not inclined to spout hooey. In dealing with quote requests, I'd say to keep coming from that place and to trust that real customers will get it, will appreciate it, and will work with you to deal with with real world hitches.
I pulled up the three K-town Yoda dealers shown on the Toyota USA website. All three have great inventory searches, with plenty of info for a reasonable buyer to use to make his/her choices. With that in mind (and provided that material is accurate), I'd say responding to quote requests should go smoothly. More in a bit. Another issue I've picked up on here is that some dealerships use lead services. With that in mind, I'd pay attention to the source of your quote request. Anybody who uses the net seriously knows how to find your site; thus, I'd say requests coming from your site are worth spending more time with.
"How SHOULD I respond to a customer that has obviously taken the time to educate themself and knows what they want, but it is either unavailable, or I need some other piece of info? Do I send a quote on something close just to show that I'm willing?" My thought is a reply acknowledging the specific request, so the shopper knows you 'got' what they're looking for. Then something like "Here's a link to the vehicle in our current stock which I think most closely matches your requirements, a Camry LX yada yada, which I can offer to you for $1X,XXX.xx. Please browse our on-line inventory as we have many other Camry's in stock which may better suit your needs and on which I'd be happy to provide a current quote. Please note that we get new shipments regularly, that we will gladly attempt to locate other Camry's in the region which may better suit your needs, and that we are able and willing to special order a vehicle exactly matching your requirements at a competitive price."
"Also, on the "Best price on Camry" customer, should I fish for more info, or, as other dealers seem to be doing, quote an LE 4cyl 5spd. with no added options?" My thought is to take what you know from quote request source, etc, and quote on a specific car in your inventory that you just guess will suit 'em best, give a link to your site, and so forth like above.
"What is the best way to ask for more info, even complicated info, while still showing that as soon as I get my ducks in a row, a price will be forthcoming?" I'm not sure what the prob is here, but again my thought is to give some solid info about a deal you can actually offer and invite your buyer/shopper to use your website to help themselves. I also think that if the request really does entail complicated info, that your prospect will know that and simply won't object to reasonable suggestions for resolving the questions.
Overall, I think a real buyer is trying to get to the same place you are - a fair price on a real car - and will do their part to get there. Replying to every quote request as if it's from a buyer like that simply gives you a shot a communicating that you're a straight shooter.
No big deal. Pick a car you need to move and hit the customer with the absolute best price you can give on the car. That's part of what the internet is for, to move inventory.
I understand that the salesman has to use his ordering system. What do you suggest TK do since he has said his system does not allow a hypothetical build? Tell his customer just to order it and he will price it when it gets in?
Ad fees I was mentioning above are any that the dealership charges above those on the invoice. I will try to avoid the ones on the invoice as much as I can too, but like you said that is a little more difficult. What is to stop the dealers from trying to get a fee for their light bill put on the invoice? See, its their on the invoice. Mfr advertising should be included in the invoice price of the car and spread over all buyers.
I can understand websites like edmunds or KBB not being completely up to date with vehicle info, but there is no excuse for the mfr website to let you configure a car that you cannot buy in your area. The mfr websites should also have accurate info posted. It is very confusing and frustrating as the buyer ( and I am sure for the salesmen too) to think you can get a car one way, but it is not available or it costs more because you have to get options that you do not want.
I don't pretend to know the details of how Toyota ordering works. I do think, however, that however the system actually works, the salesman can use the system to screw or to help the buyer. I also think most real buyers will accept the facts and work with a salesman who is actually, no hooey, working with them.
Since other salesman/dealers are using the same system, the salesguy shooting it straight is at no special disadvantage. So what if a customer gets bent and shops elsewhere? If the facts is the facts and the salesman has done well, it seems likely that the customer will be back once he's gotten a taste of the real world.
The salesguy's getting bent and putting on 'tude is just shooting himself in the foot rather than setting the stage for a sale. Let the prevailing 'tude work for the good guy!
I realize this 'facts is facts' attitude is contrahooey. But, golly, it sure is durable. "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." ~ Mark Twain
Some manufacturers do have price protection when a vehicle is ordered from factory. I cannot imagine that a salesperson is unable to give a price quote on a factory ordered unit. The only time it can get a little sticky is if you are purchasing a Toyota in the Southeast. The southeastern region for Toyota has a private distributorship and generally the invoice is a few hundred dollars more in this district than in others.
There is no difference in pricing between an ordered unit and a stock unit, escpecially in an import where the order process is fairly simple and the options are limited and generally ordered as part of a package.
As far as the advertising goes, the dealer does not have the option of putting whatever he wants on the invoice, it is placed on there by the manufacturer and is for national and regional advertising, and is part of the dealers actual invoice cost and nothing to do with his cost of doing business. It has absolutely nothing to do with the dealerships internal advertising.
If a dealer says I'll sell it to you for x.xx over invoice, then look at the invoice and agree to an amount over that amount, if they add additional advertising over the amount stated on the invoice then they are being deceptive.
If you look at carsdirect.com they ask for your zip code so they can calculate the invoice based on the region of the country you live in, because the fee varies from region to region.
I understood what you're trying to do, and I understand the sentiment behind it is "Hey, They're going to lie to me, I'll start off buy lying to them, therefore I'm in the drivers seat." That actually used to be my approach, based on advice from car negotiating books. Basically I would mask my knowledge of the vehicle/car buying process just to see if they would lie to me.
My feeling now is that perception becomes your reality. If you anticipate that you will be lied to, you will be. The car guys have said they believe that customers lie as much if not more. So we have a situation where both sides are approaching the deal from a position of distrust. All I'm saying is take the high road, be up front, if you get dishonesty back, WALK.
Thanks for the input. What you said is exactly how I took car buying too until recently. I think I can get more done and quicker by letting the salesman know I am knowledable and steering around any hooey they dump.
I thought about what you said and combined it with something I read on another car buying site to come up with what I think may be a better plan. The other website said to try to get dealer CSI scores and start by working with the dealers with the best CSI ( the theory is they treat customers better, or at least give out better freebies to get you to bring the survey to them..LOL). I thought I might change my prose to something like " I know your dealership has good CSI scores and that tells me that you probably have many satisified buyers. Breaking the buying process into very good service and very good price I would expect to get both from a dealership with such a high CSI."
This just in...saw a local ad for a car like mine, but lower trim level. Comparing prices and extrapolating looks like I may be able to get mine about $800 below invoice. (This price does not include any consumer rebates or incentives). Wish me luck.
Naive? Hardly. Passionate about the business? Yes.
I have succesfully operated numerous automobile franchises through the course of my career. So needless to say I am intimately familiar with dealership operations. I thought I might be able to come to these boards and lend some of my expertise and assist others. I didn't realize that trying to explain something in a professional manner would come across as being naive.
You don't have to agree with what I have to say, but I only speak from fact and experience.
yesterday...I was actually pleasantly surprised. When I first looked at this car at another dealer the salesman was pushy and tried to get alot of info, even though I told him I was just starting to look and compare cars.
This time I told the salesman (whom i liked very much) That i just wanted to look by myself, take a test drive and that i was not buying today. He did not ask for any info from me except my first name, took me on a test drive, let me be alone with the car and answered all of my questions. I was shocked.
Did you some how stumble into the Bizzaro world? Did all the salesmen at the dealership have goatees like in that star trek alternate universe episode?
Seriously, I'm glad the experience was good. Question is, will you give this guy a shot at your business, or go the internet route?
$800 below invoice? Isn't that one of those ads that is used to bait you in? My bet is the dealer has some extra back-end money or is using a single car as a teaser.
I've got a WRX advertised $1000 below invoice. We have $750 in factory-to-dealer incentive money on it. If you want something other than a yellow car with 100 miles on it, we're talking different price.
Funny you should ask. In my previous post I started to put my dilemma of trying to give this guy the sale vs using the internet dept, but decided not to. What do you guys think? I definately do not want to deal with floor salesmen at 10 dealerships. But I had to go to at least one to test drive. I was thinking of contacting all of the internet depts except this deaslership and let them bid it down. Then see if he could meet or beat their best offer. I would like to buy at this dealership as it is very close to my work and would be great for dropping of for service. Hope this does not sound inconsiderate.
This particular car is the Nissan Altima SL. I also drove the SE. I am also on paper considering the Acura TL ( may have to wait to save a little more down payment money on that one, Honda Accord, and some others. A friend and I started looking at small SUV's. I soon realized the only one I could afford with everything I want is a Hyundia or Kia, maybe an explorer at a stretch ( with the rebate). So started looking at cars again.
Rivertown--It was OK. I love the look of the car inside and out. I was expecting more from the engine. I want the gas mileage of the 4 cylinder, but it had a little less off the line pick up than my 96 sable. I was expecting the V6 in the SE to blow me away based on reiviews I had read, but it was about the same as my 200hp duratec V6. Both engines were noisy.
raybear--I thought the same thing or maybe they did not include the destination charge or something. I am not aware of any factory to dealer money on this car. Using carsdirect as a baseline and other ads, the cars seem to be selling close to invoice. Other ads do not specify a auto so I assume a 5spd. Using a 5spd the other ads are pretty much at invoice. This ad specifically mentioned auto, and it was $500 less than anyone else. I am not sure but I think this dealer is the biggest in my area. I am sure it is a catch, but the ad will be ok to use to negotiate with other dealers. My car will have to be ordered anyway. No one has it on the lot. This brings up another point. I may be getting in trouble here with the salesmen but I will give it a shot. Since the car will be ordered and the dealer will get all of the holdback I was thinking of creating a baseline price for myself to start negotiating with of invoice minus half of the holdback. Of course I would not mention how I got to that price unless pushed by the salesman. I know not to mention holdback when speaking of prices. My take is they take my order, clean and simple. Guaranteed sale and they get $400-$500 profit with little work on their part. Any thoughts? Thanks
You're at the place where I started getting internet quotes - lots of dealers within a comfortable drive radius (300 miles, in my case). That gave me a realistic sense (not theoretical) of the price I could expect.
IMO, getting married to a specific dealer is a mistake. Paying a little more closer is ok, IMO; but getting close to the deal you want is the point. Your closeby dealer will be happy to have the service business, if he's any good, whereever you buy; and, IMO, counting on loyalty after the sale is VERY iffy.
If you haven't seen it, look at BCB1's recent post on the "Inconsiderate Buyers" thread. You have your ducks in a row, but you may need to dig to find a dealer with whom you can deal.
The place I'm working at now used to post ads without destination.
I saw enough customers walk out in a huff over it that I never quoted a single one that way on my own. I hate having to explain the truth about the fine print.
I asked this question in another thread and was reffered to reading this thread. After reading through the entire thread I still am abit confused.
Anyway, as soon as someone purchases my rig, I will order the BMW and wait 6-8wks for delivery(nothing out there is exactly how I want it). There are 4 dealerships in town, 2 of which I have already spoken with a saleman as my fiancee is about to order her 325i. How can I negotiate the best price on an order w/o being rude and being fair. Will salesmen deal a little more if you mention you are ordering 2 cars? Keep in mind, Houston is big and don't want to spend all day driving from lot to lot.
My friend who used to sell Mercedes(cutthroat guy), suggested I fax all dealerships a letter indicating what I want and some low figure what I'd be willing to pay(like 5% over invoice). Tell them the first to respond will receive a downpayment immediately. Sounds good but also feel like I'd be backstabbing the 2 salesmen I've already been talking with(even though one did piss me off).
Finally, if one of them tries and sticks me w/ dealer prep fees, ad fees, etc.. should I just walk away or what? - I've heard these are usually bogus add-ons.
chile - Sounds like a good idea but I bet all the dealerships will call you and say something to the effect of we can't do that price but maybe something close. Prob just being a little pessimistic. I might try it though! Maybe the "Rizzo Method" could be replaced with the "Chile Technique"!
I think the thing to target is an 'out-the-door' price - including car, all fees, etc.- excepting tax, title, and license. It really doesn't matter if it's called doc fee, prep fee, whatever. It's your total cost that matters; and if you negotiate all these separate fees, there'll just be another one to show up and sweeten the deal for the dealer.
Were it me, I'd ask for a quote by e-mail or with the quote request form on each dealer's website where you haven't made a salesman contact. It's better if you ask exactly for what you want - options, color, etc. - and whether you expect to use dealer financing.
The salesman you really don't like - call the dealership and talk with the salesmanager. Say you're planning to order two cars if you can get deals you're pleased with, say you've shopped the dealership and had a bad experience with Mr. X, and ask him to set you up with another member of his sales staff. Or, do this same thing with the internet manager.
The other salesman you've met - give him a call, tell him what you want, and ask him to work up the two deals.
I dunno what BMW's sell for, relative to invoice; so, I've got no suggestions there.
The term "out the door" is just too ambiguous... Customer should ask for the price + Tax, Title & Lic. and let the Dealer know where you live...In Calif. sales tax is different from County to County.
In Houston they won't charge more than $50 as a doc fee, which is very fair. I think 5% over invoice sounds fair, you should offer it to the salesman you liked working with and see if he takes it. Now, if you're looking at an M3 or something, the price is MSRP.
Think about timing your buy for the end of the month, if you've the flexibility to do that. You just might luck into a situation where somebody in the dealer/salesman/sales manager chain at one or another dealership is at some kind of bonus threshold. Your deal could put them over (and motivate them to do better by you).
Last month, I bought my first new, non-cash car (03 Accord LX, in the Twin Cities) with the help of Internet price quotes and wanted to share my experiences.
0. I first looked to buy a used (00-01) Accord or Camry but quickly realized that in this rare case, it makes sense to buy new.
1. I drove a friends brand new LX for a couple of hours with them, so I did not need a test drive at dealer.
2. Sent out quote requests to 5 local dealers through Edmunds online quote request service. Got back two quotes right away, these were within $100 of Edmunds TMV. A third dealer replied within a week with a similar price. Two never responded. I replied to every quote requesting to disclose any additional fees, and telling them that I wanted to get all quotes before I proceed. All 3 dealers had fees ranging from minimal ($50) to somewhat reasonable ($150).
3. After about a week, sent to all 3 dealers my offer of 18,500 including destination + TTL. One responded quickly with a lengthy post how I was stealing the car but for the sake of future relationship, he would sell the car for 18,892. With the second one, we converged within a few emails, all in one day, on a price of 18,700 (this is the dealer I bought from). The the third took a couple of days and quite a few emails trying to get me into the dealership without committing on a price before finally agreeing to the same price of 18,700 (note that I never disclosed a dealer's offer to another one - never shopped them against each other).
4. Agreed on a price with the second dealer who happened to be the closest. Though I specified that I was not picky about colors, just wanted to avoid black and white, the sales rep (his card says Special Accounts - not sure if he was exclusively Internet sales) took the time to show us many colors, and had no problem waiting until our financing (PeopleFirst - took longer than expected because we just moved and did not have a utility bill in our name) comes through. Low pressure, very accommodating. When the check arrived, we spent the total of 10 minutes in F&I office. Spotless car was waiting for us even though the salesman was off that day.
Lessons learned:
1. It is possible to negotiate a new car purchase exclusively through the Internet, and Edmunds price request service is a great help. At least this is true for mass-market, "appliance" cars like the Accord.
2. Dealer attitudes and their preparedness to deal with Internet leads varies greatly. I could have saved a few hundred dollars - possibly, but I bought from the dealer who was the least pressure, closest, and fastest to respond.
3. I would have spent a lot more time going from dealer to dealer in person, and would have almost inevitable shopped them against each other. No matter how many books or threads I read on negotiating cars, I am not comfortable doing it and would likely accept a worse deal or back out of a deal out of frustration before all options are explored.
4. Once you know exactly what car model and trim you are buying, go ahead and arrange the financing, especially if the bank or credit union is doing business by mail. Contrary to my belief, the lending source does not have the exact VIN number - this can be specified later in a promissory note.
5. Though PeopleFirst provides great rates, their policies are somewhat strict - with our excellent credit, they would not accept anything other than a utility bill as a verification of residence. Power or phone company service agreements were not acceptable. Since we did not want to wait an extra 2 weeks, my wife arranged financing with a credit union over the internet - a little lower rate, too, 3.9% vs. 3.99% with PeopleFirst.
Asafonov, what do you think would have happened if you had gone to the dealer in person and offered $18,500 (or whatever your original offer was). It wouldn't have taken very long. If they didn't say 'Yes' within a few minutes, you could leave. You could have been in and out of the dealer within ten minutes. I know, because I have done it.
With you there in person, they might have been more inclined to accept your offer. With just a few minutes effort, you could have saved $200. It would have been easier than writing a bunch of e-mails.
A well-respected car salesman who frequents this DG has admitted they treat a customer more seriously in person than they would over the phone or over the internet.
If asafonov had spent a few (yes, I mean a few) minutes to make his offer in person, he could have possible saved $200 and the effort it took to write a bunch of e-mails.
bobst, you very well may be right. But please keep in mind the following:
- when you walk into a dealership, especially without an appointment, you most likely work with a commission-only salesperson, who will want his cut and will be less likely to accept a low offer.
- if the first dealership accepted my offer, I would have saved $200. If I had to visit all five dealerships to get these savings in our spread-out metro area, that would have taken at least 2 evenings after work, or most of a weekend day, and I am not sure it would have been worth it.
- I could have visited all 5 dealerships and not got such good an offer.
I guess that each person picks his/her negotiating style. bobst, you are probably good at in-person negotiations, I am not very good. I just reported my shopping experience, never claiming that I got the rock-bottom price (I didn't).
Bob's not into negotiation, he couples car buying with his fitness regimen. He makes an offer, not accepted, he walks to the next dealer, ups the offer incrementally, if not accepted, he walks...and so on. My 24 hour fitness is actually getting a cardio machine that duplicates this, it's called the Negotiationmaster. The F&I setting's a real burn on your glutes, but the mop 'n glow cool down leaves you feeling refreshed and slightly peckish.
asafonov, congratulations on your new car and your shopping experience. How did the $18,700 final price compare to Edmunds TMV and invoice? I get the impression that you ended up lower than TMV, but I couldn't really tell from your post.
Tim: 18,700 I paid compares favorably to regional Edmunds TMV of about 19,150. Of course, there is a whole thread dedicated to what buyers paid for their Accords - N.E. and the Bay area seem to have significantly lower prices compared to what I was able to negotiate. People report paying $200-500 UNDER invoice. For example, the following New Hampshire dealership lists 4dr Accords LX auto w/out side airbags for about 17,800 + destination.
You probably right. After all, that's what you do. However, the salesman who I picked the keys from the next day did not have "special accounts" on his card. Also, my salesman mentioned that he worked by appointment - I don't know if it's true.
If he is truly commission only, he certainly needs to sell a LOT of cars to make a living, at these prices. BTW, he was not upset about my initial 18,500 offer, just wrote he needed 300 to make a deal (18,800). We converged on 18,700.
Somewhere here in TH, I read a net salesguy saying he had the authority to cut the price close and was paid a higher salary. Dunno what the truth is, but my guess is that the floor salesman usually gets a small salary or draw against commission and the net guy gets a more reasonable salary, perhaps with bonuses for exceeding some kind of quota. I agree with your sense that the net guy is less commission driven, which makes the whole process of buying a car much more pleasant and straight forward for the customer.
I, too, hope you enjoy the car. I also 'get' your greater enjoyment of the net buy experience and share it.
Comments
But to look at the other side for a moment, it is more common than not for a consumer to walk in and say "I don't like to haggle, just give me your best price and I'll buy it". So the salesman drops his pants only to have the customer say "If you take off another $3000, I'll buy it. Now it has turned into a 3 hour ordeal convincing the customer that it was your best price to start with. It is a no win situation.
tk-- you bring up some very good points. Thanks for your very constructive insights and questions. Let me tell you my situation and wants as a customer and maybe that will help. The car I want will probably not be available exactly as I want it on a lot. I have no problem ordering it and thankfully my car is made in th US by a foreign maker. Dealer said abour 40 days on an order. I will list my options out and say no extra options. I will also state that i am fine ordering the car. If I email you I would expect to be responded by email unless I say otherwise. I would assume that the dealers internet dept sells cars for $x over invoice. If model B (on the lot) is $100 over invoice, I would expect that the dealer could look up invoice pricing for the options I want (even if their order system does not allow that, they can use edmunds) and configure model C and quote me a price of $100 over invoice on ordering the car. This does not seem too difficult to me. I understand this may not work for cars made overseas with long order times.
You also bring up a great point about configurations. I have a feeling I may have this problem with my car. The manufacturer site makes me order a sunroof that i do not want in order to get an option package that I do want. All other websites, like edmunds, kbb, carsdirect, do not make me order the sunroof. Even a dealer site that linked to chromedata did not make me order the sunroof. i called the mfr 800 number and they said they did not see anything that would make me order the sunroof either. So I am keeping my fingers crossed and hoping it was a website glitch. Whats even weirder is that the mfr site lists the sunroof as std eqp on the trim level that I am looking at.
In conclusion. Do not call me, bad impression on me. Email me with any questions. Do not send a price on a close model, again a bad impression that you are trying to sell me something off the lot. Price it using readily available website info. Please include any ad or doc fees that your dealership charges on top of price. If it is a config issue or an invoice pricing issue, I guess that needs to be handled on a case by case bassis. Again this is just my opinions. I may be your one wierd buyer, don't know. Hope this helps some.
I can understand that you do not want to pay doc fees, but advertising fees are a valid charge on the invoice on all vehicles.
It seems to me if my memory serves me correctly that Toyota is building a new V6 Camry that comes standard with a sunroof. Someone will correct me if I am wrong.
Also when you give me a price quote, please itemize ALL the fees/charges in order for me to be sure there are no surprises when we close the deal. And do NOT even mention dealer-installed options and 'extras' -- it's a great turn off for informed internet customers!
Good luck!
Tony
I pulled up the three K-town Yoda dealers shown on the Toyota USA website. All three have great inventory searches, with plenty of info for a reasonable buyer to use to make his/her choices. With that in mind (and provided that material is accurate), I'd say responding to quote requests should go smoothly. More in a bit.
Another issue I've picked up on here is that some dealerships use lead services. With that in mind, I'd pay attention to the source of your quote request. Anybody who uses the net seriously knows how to find your site; thus, I'd say requests coming from your site are worth spending more time with.
"How SHOULD I respond to a customer that has obviously taken the time to educate themself and knows what they want, but it is either unavailable, or I need some other piece of info? Do I send a quote on something close just to show that I'm willing?"
My thought is a reply acknowledging the specific request, so the shopper knows you 'got' what they're looking for. Then something like "Here's a link to the vehicle in our current stock which I think most closely matches your requirements, a Camry LX yada yada, which I can offer to you for $1X,XXX.xx. Please browse our on-line inventory as we have many other Camry's in stock which may better suit your needs and on which I'd be happy to provide a current quote. Please note that we get new shipments regularly, that we will gladly attempt to locate other Camry's in the region which may better suit your needs, and that we are able and willing to special order a vehicle exactly matching your requirements at a competitive price."
"Also, on the "Best price on Camry" customer, should I fish for more info, or, as other dealers seem to be doing, quote an LE 4cyl 5spd. with no added options?"
My thought is to take what you know from quote request source, etc, and quote on a specific car in your inventory that you just guess will suit 'em best, give a link to your site, and so forth like above.
"What is the best way to ask for more info, even complicated info, while still showing that as soon as I get my ducks in a row, a price will be forthcoming?"
I'm not sure what the prob is here, but again my thought is to give some solid info about a deal you can actually offer and invite your buyer/shopper to use your website to help themselves. I also think that if the request really does entail complicated info, that your prospect will know that and simply won't object to reasonable suggestions for resolving the questions.
Overall, I think a real buyer is trying to get to the same place you are - a fair price on a real car - and will do their part to get there. Replying to every quote request as if it's from a buyer like that simply gives you a shot a communicating that you're a straight shooter.
Ad fees I was mentioning above are any that the dealership charges above those on the invoice. I will try to avoid the ones on the invoice as much as I can too, but like you said that is a little more difficult. What is to stop the dealers from trying to get a fee for their light bill put on the invoice? See, its their on the invoice. Mfr advertising should be included in the invoice price of the car and spread over all buyers.
Since other salesman/dealers are using the same system, the salesguy shooting it straight is at no special disadvantage. So what if a customer gets bent and shops elsewhere? If the facts is the facts and the salesman has done well, it seems likely that the customer will be back once he's gotten a taste of the real world.
The salesguy's getting bent and putting on 'tude is just shooting himself in the foot rather than setting the stage for a sale. Let the prevailing 'tude work for the good guy!
I realize this 'facts is facts' attitude is contrahooey. But, golly, it sure is durable.
"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." ~ Mark Twain
Some manufacturers do have price protection when a vehicle is ordered from factory. I cannot imagine that a salesperson is unable to give a price quote on a factory ordered unit. The only time it can get a little sticky is if you are purchasing a Toyota in the Southeast. The southeastern region for Toyota has a private distributorship and generally the invoice is a few hundred dollars more in this district than in others.
There is no difference in pricing between an ordered unit and a stock unit, escpecially in an import where the order process is fairly simple and the options are limited and generally ordered as part of a package.
As far as the advertising goes, the dealer does not have the option of putting whatever he wants on the invoice, it is placed on there by the manufacturer and is for national and regional advertising, and is part of the dealers actual invoice cost and nothing to do with his cost of doing business. It has absolutely nothing to do with the dealerships internal advertising.
If a dealer says I'll sell it to you for x.xx over invoice, then look at the invoice and agree to an amount over that amount, if they add additional advertising over the amount stated on the invoice then they are being deceptive.
If you look at carsdirect.com they ask for your zip code so they can calculate the invoice based on the region of the country you live in, because the fee varies from region to region.
Hope this helps, have a great day.
You come across as a bit naive.
My feeling now is that perception becomes your reality. If you anticipate that you will be lied to, you will be. The car guys have said they believe that customers lie as much if not more. So we have a situation where both sides are approaching the deal from a position of distrust. All I'm saying is take the high road, be up front, if you get dishonesty back, WALK.
Help break the cycle, Mass!
I thought about what you said and combined it with something I read on another car buying site to come up with what I think may be a better plan. The other website said to try to get dealer CSI scores and start by working with the dealers with the best CSI ( the theory is they treat customers better, or at least give out better freebies to get you to bring the survey to them..LOL). I thought I might change my prose to something like " I know your dealership has good CSI scores and that tells me that you probably have many satisified buyers. Breaking the buying process into very good service and very good price I would expect to get both from a dealership with such a high CSI."
This just in...saw a local ad for a car like mine, but lower trim level. Comparing prices and extrapolating looks like I may be able to get mine about $800 below invoice. (This price does not include any consumer rebates or incentives). Wish me luck.
Prod
I have succesfully operated numerous automobile franchises through the course of my career. So needless to say I am intimately familiar with dealership operations. I thought I might be able to come to these boards and lend some of my expertise and assist others. I didn't realize that trying to explain something in a professional manner would come across as being naive.
You don't have to agree with what I have to say, but I only speak from fact and experience.
Have a great day!
Good Selling!!
This time I told the salesman (whom i liked very much) That i just wanted to look by myself, take a test drive and that i was not buying today. He did not ask for any info from me except my first name, took me on a test drive, let me be alone with the car and answered all of my questions. I was shocked.
Seriously, I'm glad the experience was good. Question is, will you give this guy a shot at your business, or go the internet route?
What cars are you comparing, anyway?
I've got a WRX advertised $1000 below invoice. We have $750 in factory-to-dealer incentive money on it. If you want something other than a yellow car with 100 miles on it, we're talking different price.
This particular car is the Nissan Altima SL. I also drove the SE. I am also on paper considering the Acura TL ( may have to wait to save a little more down payment money on that one, Honda Accord, and some others. A friend and I started looking at small SUV's. I soon realized the only one I could afford with everything I want is a Hyundia or Kia, maybe an explorer at a stretch ( with the rebate). So started looking at cars again.
Rivertown--It was OK. I love the look of the car inside and out. I was expecting more from the engine. I want the gas mileage of the 4 cylinder, but it had a little less off the line pick up than my 96 sable. I was expecting the V6 in the SE to blow me away based on reiviews I had read, but it was about the same as my 200hp duratec V6. Both engines were noisy.
raybear--I thought the same thing or maybe they did not include the destination charge or something. I am not aware of any factory to dealer money on this car. Using carsdirect as a baseline and other ads, the cars seem to be selling close to invoice. Other ads do not specify a auto so I assume a 5spd. Using a 5spd the other ads are pretty much at invoice. This ad specifically mentioned auto, and it was $500 less than anyone else. I am not sure but I think this dealer is the biggest in my area. I am sure it is a catch, but the ad will be ok to use to negotiate with other dealers. My car will have to be ordered anyway. No one has it on the lot. This brings up another point. I may be getting in trouble here with the salesmen but I will give it a shot. Since the car will be ordered and the dealer will get all of the holdback I was thinking of creating a baseline price for myself to start negotiating with of invoice minus half of the holdback. Of course I would not mention how I got to that price unless pushed by the salesman. I know not to mention holdback when speaking of prices. My take is they take my order, clean and simple. Guaranteed sale and they get $400-$500 profit with little work on their part. Any thoughts? Thanks
IMO, getting married to a specific dealer is a mistake. Paying a little more closer is ok, IMO; but getting close to the deal you want is the point. Your closeby dealer will be happy to have the service business, if he's any good, whereever you buy; and, IMO, counting on loyalty after the sale is VERY iffy.
I saw enough customers walk out in a huff over it that I never quoted a single one that way on my own. I hate having to explain the truth about the fine print.
Anyway, as soon as someone purchases my rig, I will order the BMW and wait 6-8wks for delivery(nothing out there is exactly how I want it). There are 4 dealerships in town, 2 of which I have already spoken with a saleman as my fiancee is about to order her 325i. How can I negotiate the best price on an order w/o being rude and being fair. Will salesmen deal a little more if you mention you are ordering 2 cars? Keep in mind, Houston is big and don't want to spend all day driving from lot to lot.
My friend who used to sell Mercedes(cutthroat guy), suggested I fax all dealerships a letter indicating what I want and some low figure what I'd be willing to pay(like 5% over invoice). Tell them the first to respond will receive a downpayment immediately. Sounds good but also feel like I'd be backstabbing the 2 salesmen I've already been talking with(even though one did piss me off).
Finally, if one of them tries and sticks me w/ dealer prep fees, ad fees, etc.. should I just walk away or what? - I've heard these are usually bogus add-ons.
Thanks in advance!
GODBLESS OUR TROOPS!
Any thoughts from others?
Were it me, I'd ask for a quote by e-mail or with the quote request form on each dealer's website where you haven't made a salesman contact. It's better if you ask exactly for what you want - options, color, etc. - and whether you expect to use dealer financing.
The salesman you really don't like - call the dealership and talk with the salesmanager. Say you're planning to order two cars if you can get deals you're pleased with, say you've shopped the dealership and had a bad experience with Mr. X, and ask him to set you up with another member of his sales staff. Or, do this same thing with the internet manager.
The other salesman you've met - give him a call, tell him what you want, and ask him to work up the two deals.
I dunno what BMW's sell for, relative to invoice; so, I've got no suggestions there.
Customer should ask for the price + Tax, Title & Lic. and let the Dealer know where you live...In Calif. sales tax is different from County to County.
0. I first looked to buy a used (00-01) Accord or Camry but quickly realized that in this rare case, it makes sense to buy new.
1. I drove a friends brand new LX for a couple of hours with them, so I did not need a test drive at dealer.
2. Sent out quote requests to 5 local dealers through Edmunds online quote request service. Got back two quotes right away, these were within $100 of Edmunds TMV. A third dealer replied within a week with a similar price. Two never responded. I replied to every quote requesting to disclose any additional fees, and telling them that I wanted to get all quotes before I proceed.
All 3 dealers had fees ranging from minimal ($50) to somewhat reasonable ($150).
3. After about a week, sent to all 3 dealers my offer of 18,500 including destination + TTL. One responded quickly with a lengthy post how I was stealing the car but for the sake of future relationship, he would sell the car for 18,892. With the second one, we converged within a few emails, all in one day, on a price of 18,700 (this is the dealer I bought from). The the third took a couple of days and quite a few emails trying to get me into the dealership without committing on a price before finally agreeing to the same price of 18,700 (note that I never disclosed a dealer's offer to another one - never shopped them against each other).
4. Agreed on a price with the second dealer who happened to be the closest. Though I specified that I was not picky about colors, just wanted to avoid black and white, the sales rep (his card says Special Accounts - not sure if he was exclusively Internet sales) took the time to show us many colors, and had no problem waiting until our financing (PeopleFirst - took longer than expected because we just moved and did not have a utility bill in our name) comes through. Low pressure, very accommodating. When the check arrived, we spent the total of 10 minutes in F&I office. Spotless car was waiting for us even though the salesman was off that day.
Lessons learned:
1. It is possible to negotiate a new car purchase exclusively through the Internet, and Edmunds price request service is a great help. At least this is true for mass-market, "appliance" cars like the Accord.
2. Dealer attitudes and their preparedness to deal with Internet leads varies greatly. I could have saved a few hundred dollars - possibly, but I bought from the dealer who was the least pressure, closest, and fastest to respond.
3. I would have spent a lot more time going from dealer to dealer in person, and would have almost inevitable shopped them against each other. No matter how many books or threads I read on negotiating cars, I am not comfortable doing it and would likely accept a worse deal or back out of a deal out of frustration before all options are explored.
4. Once you know exactly what car model and trim you are buying, go ahead and arrange the financing, especially if the bank or credit union is doing business by mail. Contrary to my belief, the lending source does not have the exact VIN number - this can be specified later in a promissory note.
5. Though PeopleFirst provides great rates, their policies are somewhat strict - with our excellent credit, they would not accept anything other than a utility bill as a verification of residence. Power or phone company service agreements were not acceptable. Since we did not want to wait an extra 2 weeks, my wife arranged financing with a credit union over the internet - a little lower rate, too, 3.9% vs. 3.99% with PeopleFirst.
Great post!
Mirrors my experience perfectly.
Ah! Relief from the 'sales experience'!
Enjoy your new Accord!
Tony
With you there in person, they might have been more inclined to accept your offer. With just a few minutes effort, you could have saved $200. It would have been easier than writing a bunch of e-mails.
It's easier to accept an offer by email than in person, if the customer is already in front of you there's a chance to work him for more profit.
A well-respected car salesman who frequents this DG has admitted they treat a customer more seriously in person than they would over the phone or over the internet.
If asafonov had spent a few (yes, I mean a few) minutes to make his offer in person, he could have possible saved $200 and the effort it took to write a bunch of e-mails.
- when you walk into a dealership, especially without an appointment, you most likely work with a commission-only salesperson, who will want his cut and will be less likely to accept a low offer.
- if the first dealership accepted my offer, I would have saved $200. If I had to visit all five dealerships to get these savings in our spread-out metro area, that would have taken at least 2 evenings after work, or most of a weekend day, and I am not sure it would have been worth it.
- I could have visited all 5 dealerships and not got such good an offer.
I guess that each person picks his/her negotiating style. bobst, you are probably good at in-person negotiations, I am not very good. I just reported my shopping experience, never claiming that I got the rock-bottom price (I didn't).
P.S. emails are written during builds
I guess you're build process is automated, then!
However, I like visiting car dealers. It is easy to go into a dealer and, if they have the car I want, make an offer.
Of course, when I needed to buy a car quickly, I have gotten good deals over the phone. Whatever you enjoy doing.
http://honda.autofair.com/index.cfm?action=home
However, the salesman who I picked the keys from the next day did not have "special accounts" on his card. Also, my salesman mentioned that he worked by appointment - I don't know if it's true.
If he is truly commission only, he certainly needs to sell a LOT of cars to make a living, at these prices. BTW, he was not upset about my initial 18,500 offer, just wrote he needed 300 to make a deal (18,800). We converged on 18,700.
Enjoy your new car!
I, too, hope you enjoy the car. I also 'get' your greater enjoyment of the net buy experience and share it.