That depends upon your interpretation of the word buy...There are no facitities at Auto Shows to print conracts, DMV docs, etc.
Typically cars that are presented at Auto Shows are the newest offerings...Discounts are available on older, more readily available items...Just like every other commodity...
"Life without car dealerships remains a fantasy of anti-social internet dwellers and members of the new Victim class but I have yet to see any viable plan that would work."
There is a big difference between life without dealerships and life without car salesmen. The service department is the one that keeps my car running. The sales department... they're the ones who buy me a can of Coke or Pepsi once every few years. They are far more dispensible--I can get my own can from the vending machine.
You can already do that! Right this moment you're looking at a multi-purpose machine that vends cars, books, clothes, prescriptions, etc. and which also does lots of other stuff. Most of 'em have a sticker reading "Intel Inside".
"Life without car dealerships remains a fantasy of anti-social internet dwellers and members of the new Victim class but I have yet to see any viable plan that would work."
If manufacturers sold direct to the consumer, cutting out the "middle men/women", what a world!
Who would sell "Mop and Glow", overpriced accecessories, stereo upgrades and gasp....pin striping and window etching.....LOL.
Why the cost alone to the cheap suit manufacturing industry would be terrible....:)
Glad to know you want have any trouble prepping your car when they dump it off the truck covered in all that white film. And think of the excitement: you own it before taking a test drive! And they make them so well these days that you would never need warranty service.
Colors on the 'net also look identical to real life, so no problems there. Or yo could just sit on the side of the road, waiting for all the variations of a model to go by.
All kidding aside, cars and houses are 2 big ticket items that can be researched to death on the internet, but have to be experienced in person before you buy (for ost people).
Dealers serve a valuable purpose, it just seems to be the sales process that people don't like, not the convenience of picking up a fully prepped car, and having someone show you how it works, not to mention doing all the paperwork for you.
"Why not carry that farther? Heck, you could pick your own apples, dig your own potatoes!"
Hey, sounds good to me! Sense more consumers are becoming informed due to the internet, less need for non-value added parts of the sales chain, in cars apples or potatoes. Oh and less games to boot.
Other than laws in states that protect the dealership model, very little in the way of progress to a new model of distribution, i.e. direct sales IMHO. Wonder when Wally's world will start selling cars?
What makes you think that buying direct will save the consumer anything? Don't you realize the manufacturers are already part of some of the "scams" you mentioned?
It's the "sales process" most folks don't like, LOL. You can already cut that short, but not eliminate it, with net shopping.
Most of the stuff you mention - prep, paperwork, warranty service, eyeball shopping, etc. - could be (and, will be, IMO) easily worked around once manufacturers and customers recognize the benefits and savings.
I don't see dealerships totally eliminated, but already there are good alternatives to 'old school' sales; and the market for that can only grow as sales floor customers continue to get jerked around AND come to recognize it's not necessary.
Can you explain why the experiment of manufacturers owning dealerships and selling direct to consumers was one or retails biggest failures??
Just a few years ago there was a very substantial automaker who purchased quite a few major dealer groups all around the country...they filled the showrooms with factory trained product specialists, instituted a low one price selling philosophy, built beautiful, bright and well staffed dealerships etc. Just what consumers told them they wanted...They failed to realize that consuemrs say one thing but do something else.
The local independent dealers clobbered them and essentially wiped them out of business. The major mfg sold all the dealerships back to local dealers and crawled back to corp hq with their tails between their legs and checkbook a few billions lighter.
If the pattern in 'alternative sales' that showed up in 'puters repeats, it's gonna take a high quality/high reliability manufacturer to pull off an internet predominant sales effort. IMO, that means a Japanese manufacturer. I think also that a manufacturer w/o a large market share would have the most incentive to make a major alternatives sales effort. Suzuki?
as the dealers must cooperate! I'm shopping online and most of my emails to dealers asking for a price quote on a specific unit ARE IGNORED!! Why would dealers do that, you ask? Cuz they want me to CALL them so that they can make all sorts of promises they can deny later! Dealers make their profits by obscuring the deal, and many just won't respond to one's emails. This is particularly acute in limited compet'n areas such as Hawaii. I'm so tired of getting NO responses and NO cooperation from Hawaii stores who routinely rip off the customers for thousands ABOVE msrp that I'm on the verge of buying used from Hertz, just cuz I can pull up data & PRICE on hertzcarsales.com. Cars must be the only product in America getting the real price is a challenge----I'm a real estate investor and even on apartment buildings the Agent will help you come to a "real" value...amazing, huh....
SO, onine shopping IS simple...and in Calif I find half the dealers are willing to respond...but if you're in a small or remote town forget it! p.s. ever known a poor car dealer?? (NOT salesman, I said "dealer")...
I mean, no offense, readers, but the whole idea of the internet deal is that you request a deal upfront...if the dealer condescends to respond, if the price is close to Edmunds TMV or Cars Direct. com or your bookstore-bought price guide, then you go ahead and go to the dealer to complete, right?? If the price is out of line, I say don't give that dealer another shot at your business. I feel the net quote should be "real", and, if not, then try to find another dealer...and I don't mean you should walk over $100 on a $20K to $40K vehicle, either!
Subie's going away! I was there for three days and they decided to retire the franchise. I'm working it to my advantage, selling based on liquidation prices, making money for the dealership when I can.
I'm moving to Volvo at the end of the month, and already have meetings going regarding the business development end of it.
I'm selling cars like crazy, though! It's fun being back in the game. I hope to have at least 20 burning gas by the 31st.
Your captive market sounds awful. I, too, would be looking at used.
Thought about dropping the manufacturer a complaint? I've read here on Edmunds that some dealers only have an internet dept because the manufacturer forces them to. I'm wondering what the manufacturer would think about the lousy service and price gouging.
Your method of pitting one dealer against the other usually doesn't work.
Most deaalers aren't dumb enough to give you a number to shop.
A method that works better wold be to offer a price. " I'm willing to pay 20,775 for your car"
Or better yet, why not go in (gasp)in person?
Pick out a car you like, and make them a serious, committed offer to buy.
Also...sorry...but judging by the tone of your post, you are hostile toward the car business. This may show in your e-mails and perhaps that's why you are being ignored.
Wow, Mike, we feel your pain. It is too bad the dealers are so uncooperative. If you try real, real hard, maybe you can think of a couple positive things to say about living in Hawaii.
If you want to buy a car, follow Isell's advice. I know that some people don't like the car buying experience, but if you have a definite plan and stick to it, you can enjoy it and get a car for a decent price.
With that method I have to call or fax a dozen dealers, and then call them again to make sure they're not low-balling me, and you call that hassle free?
You consider a few phone calls/faxes a hassle? This is a several-thousand-dollars deal not ordering a pizza with extra cheese (even for that I had to call twice!)
Perhaps you prefer to go down to the dealer's showroom, spend the whole day negotiating with manipulative salespeople and end up paying close to MSRP!
I read all over edmunds that salespeople are inept and don't have a clue....how could a well educated and informed person be brought to their knees by such a lowly salesperson???
Last car, I went down to the showroom, spent about 15 minutes negotiating, and got $300 over invoice. As long as you know what you're willing to pay, there's no reason for negotiations to be long. If they won't do the deal in 20 minutes, go to the next dealer. I guarantee it'll be less total time spent than with the Rizzo method.
I will say that if you want to get the absolute lowest, no doubt about it, my neighbor won't beat me on this, price, then, yeah, you got to phone, fax, and/or visit every dealer in a 100 mile radius. I was willing to accept that my price was probably $200-300 above the "absolute lowest" to spare myself that hassle.
"...As long as you know what you're willing to pay, there's no reason for negotiations to be long."
I agree with you, but in order for you to 'know what you're willing to pay' you have to 'do your homework' on the internet first. When you have the right info you can go either way: contact different dealers with your offer, or go down to a certain dealer and 'cut to the chase'!
True enough, if you assume that every salesperson/dealer is willing to 'cut to the chase' and can meet the same price. I dunno about the latter, but the former is not a sound assumption. A couple of hours (phoning/faxing/e-mailing or not) is about what it's gonna take even IF you hit the right guy at the right place at the right time, IMO.
Salesmen 'cut to the chase' very quickly if you give them a definite offer. When I make an offer to buy a car, I get a Yes or No without any hassle.
Of course, the salesman has to go talk to the sales manager, so we wait around for 5 or 10 minutes looking at the car brochures or other new cars in the showroom. No problem.
Of course, many of our offers are turned down. If that happens, we leave.
I doubt that we're that much on different pages, though perhaps I'm too tolerant of the 'last minute add-on sales effort'. They always seem to try to run those on me; and, short of rudeness on my part, I've found no way to eliminate that hooey. A series of pitches and no's. Perhaps next time, I'll try "I gotta be somewhere in 20 minutes, with or without the car."
Violinist's point was about using remote buying to eliminate a portion of the hooey, and I still think his method has value. I did essentially the same thing only via the net; and the result was to eliminate a bunch of driving around, pointless jabbering, and attempts to strike a deal where we just weren't close enough to begin with. It beats me why one dealership is willing to sell at $1-2K less than another; and, frankly, I don't much care. As buyer, I wanna find out which is which with the least hassle and buy the durned car.
Saw some good articles and white papers on this on chromedata.com. They are a website that links info for dealers. They give a good explanation of the frustrations buyers have with the old buying methods. They do not approach the issue as getting buyers lower costs (since they are there for dealers), but from the aspect of improving the buying process for the customer and letting the buyer get what he wants. They have good discussions about the current "push" method of auto sells vs a better "pull" method. This new pull method would benefit everyone with lower cost since inventories could be kept low and the buyers would be more satisfied since they get exactly the car they want.
audi--I believe what you are saying about the manufacturer direct disaster, but your explanation leaves me wanting for more accurate info on this matter. It is hard for me to believe that if a store was as nice as what you describe with knowledge product specialist and the lowest price in town, that they failed. They may have had a low price, but if they were undercut by other local dealers, then that explains their failure. They would have to be willing to (as one local add in my paper says) "beat anyone elses best price by $500".
The internet has definately changed car buying. In pre internet days dealerships had to support every aspect of the car buying experience, including reasearch and pricing. IMHO, the discusion here is about these roles changing. Yes we need dealerships to look and test drive cars and to prep and deliver cars. We need dealerships for service, etc. But like what has been said earlier, it is basically state laws that are making buyers buy from dealerships, no market forces. Buyers can research technical aspects, prices, etc online. Buyers can use phone and email to get prices (when the dealers are willing to sell this way). The role of the dealership and the salesman is changing. It is sad to see this great new idea being wasted. It held such promise when first introduced, but unfortunately has been manipulated into just another lead feeder for dealerships. No one, except carsdirect.com has real pricing online, no one will email a real price quote without you giving a bunch of personal info, and very few dealers have accurate up to date inventory info on the web.
I agree with a lot of what you've said, but I've just had (Dec) some real life experience that's better than you've suggested.
"no one will email a real price quote without you giving a bunch of personal info" - not entirely so. Maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of the dealerships I contacted via their own websites responded with competitive quotes, and there was no personal info in my quote requests beyond an e-mail address. I've described the tone of my quote requests above, and I think an intelligent person would infer from my request that I was a serious buyer seeking to narrow down the field before beginning more specific negotiations. Several dealerships 'got it', and we moved forward.
"very few dealers have accurate up to date inventory info on the web" - I didn't verify accuracy, but most of the dealerships (Honda) I approached had online inventory searches, which I believe were accurate. Of course, the way Honda merchandises (trim lines with few options) works well for this; but I believe even manufacturers which play the option game (Toyota, for example) could be well shopped if the customer is wanting a common build.
My take on the market in my area (West Tenn) was that some dealerships support an effective net sales effort while some simply use traditional sales methods on the internet. The beauty of it, for me the buyer, was that I could separate one from the other and cut through a huge amount of traditional sales hooey. My other big take was that once you've struck an initial deal via the net, the dealer has a chance (mine took it) to run the old games.
is well and good, but the fact remains that you don't have to intuit the price of a head of lettuce at the grocery store or a suit at the tailors. Cars are no different, just more costly. I don't really care what the dealer paid for the unit that is offered for sale, I am totally uninterested in how much profit or loss is in the equation. Tell me the price and I will decide yes or no within 10 seconds. For all you master negotiators out there, the first rule of successful negotiation is to make the other guy make the first offer. Offering the dealer a price first is negotiating against yourself. Buying cars continues to be a distasteful process because the current method is believed by the sellers to maximize their profits. I am guessing that they know their business better than I.
Are you implying that lettuce or suit sellers do not try to maximize their profits? Or is just that consumers have been conditioned to accept their profit taking?
In net shopping, I found that some dealerships simply do not use the "He who mentions price first loses" strategy AND they are easy to tell apart from the dealerships which do. Having a straightforward buying option is a wonderful aid, even if one chooses to 'deal' with a 'dealer'. LOL, 'offering a price first' is totally different when you've got control over the time you spend and real alternatives to the 'negotiation' you're involved with at the moment.
It is too bad that you think "buying cars continues to be a distasteful process". Getting a new car is one of the great pleasures in life, and if you don't enjoy the process, I suggest that you find a way to make it enjoyable.
I enjoy visiting dealers and making an offer face-to-face with a salesman. Other people like to do most of their negotiations over the internet. Whichever method you like, it really is nice when you find a way to make car buying more fun and still get a great deal.
What you said makes no sense,"For all you master negotiators out there, the first rule of successful negotiation is to make the other guy make the first offer."
With almost 100% certainty I bet if you walk on to landru's car lot and ask for the price of a vehicle he will quote you MSRP. This has happened to me a noumber of times. Kinda funny I guess. This seems like a big waste of time to me. It seems better to let the salesman know up front that you have done your research and that you know the vehicle you are looking at sells for $100 over invoice in your area. At one dealership the price went from MSRP to $2000 below invoice in about 20 minutes.
rivertown...great observations. i was also basing my posts on shopping from last spring. I got very few email price quotes back and the services like ABT and Stoneage are a joke. I have learned from here that sending an email with every dealer cc'd is not the way to go. I was thinking of writing an email and sending it to each dealer individually. Maybe some prose about a friend bought there and they said they got a really good price with not a lot of hassle. At least for the first round. Of course then, I would take the low bidder and see who could beat it. Should I sign the bottom "Who wants to sell a car today?" LOL
I agree, the multiple copies aren't the way to go.
I dunno, but I'm beginning to wonder if my experience wasn't uniquely good. I was shopping/buying Honda for an over supplied car; there were Si's not selling like hotcakes. Maybe that was part of it. It seems like Honda was really encouraging net sales. The sites were good - inventory searches and quote request forms. And, though a few dealers didn't have sites, most seemed to. And there was a good dealer find function on the Honda USA site. Rather than e-mail, I used the quote request form available on the dealer sites. So, no dupes. I filled out the request form completely and truthfully - with one exception. I gave no identifying info beyond my e-mail address. Where a phone or address was required, I put in an obvious dummy - along with a request to contact me only by e-mail; and where last name was required, I typed in 'none'. In the comment section, I simply told the truth - that I was replacing a totalled car, that I expected the claim to be settled within 2 weeks, and that was my time frame for completing a purchase. I also said I'd be using either my bank or the dealership for financing, depending on the rate. Some dealers replied immediately (within 2 hours) with a competitive quote. Others replied with 'questions', LOL. When the questions were legit, I replied quickly and truthfully (the only real choice to be made with that model is color). When the questions were sales hooey, I replied quickly, courteously, and directly: "Thanks for your reply, yada yada. I'd appreciate a quote on an '02 Civic Si, out-the-door price not including TTL. Before taking more of your time and mine, I want to find out if we're in the same ballpark with price." In retrospect, I think it was clear that I was serious prospect who knew what he wanted carwise and that I just wasn't gonna play haggle games. I think it also helped that I didn't need to mess around with a trade-in and that I wasn't a problem financing case. I hope I'm not replacing a total again in the future, and my plan is to sell my trade-in privately - just to keep the deal simple. BTW, the reasons for my 'out-the-door not including TTL' request were that I live within 300 miles of several states AND that I wanted to cut out ALL of the haggle room.
Truly, about 1/2 the dealerships I contacted this way were willing and able to play by these rules. One even offered a competitive price, to complete the deal remotely, and to deliver the car and the final paperwork to my door. Very Cool!
Having thought a lot about it since Dec, I think the keys are to be serious about wanting a specific car, to use the net tools that are in place, to simplify the deal like you should anyhow, and stick to one's own buying plan. (This included a couple of replies reading, "Thank you for the info. I'll get back with you when I've seen some other quotes.") Honda, I think, is set up to do business like this. Other lines with an 'options sales strategy', like Toyota for example, could be bought the same way, I think, by visiting a lot or two to see what the common builds are. Doing the MSRP haggle dance just isn't necessary, I'm convinced, unless, of course, the car one wants to buy is really selling at MSRP.
P.S. If anybody's interested, I'll share some of the hooey responses I got and the outcomes of those interactions.
I think your single e-mail to each dealer makes sense, but I have heard you decry dishonesty in dealing with dealers, so to preface your e-mail with lie about an imaginary friend who refered you doesn't put things off on the right foot.
Perhaps you could talk about how in a seance with your late grandmother, she told you to buy from dealer x, and that the final price would be 4k below invoice. People generally don't wanna mess with the dead, so they'll probably give it to you no questions asked!
When I have enough info to go on, I AWAYS shoot a price at X% over invoice. However - what a customer thinks is "complete info" is often not. Even leaving out things like "Send me your lowest price on a Camry," with these days of "Build-Your-Own" websites, about 30% of my new vehicle customers want configurations that are either very rare or not made. I then have to respond by asking the customer "What options might you be flexible on, are there other trim levels that might work?" Often I even ask them to call me, as it's a lot easier to explain over the phone, especially when I can get into Dealer Daily and have an answer in minutes, instead of possibly going back and forth for days. About 40% of the time, I get no futher response. I think the customer's POV is "this guy is giving me a run-around, trying to get me on the phone, won't give me a price." And they go somewhere else, from my long-term follow up, it seems they just decide to go into a local dealer and see if they can find one, and then get "sold" on one that is differently equipped. Just because BuildaYugo.com says you can get one equipped with X and Y, but not Z, doesn't mean you can get it without a factory order. And my manufacturer doesn't have a system where you can figure a "hypothetical" invoice. The best way to price an order is to find something similar, and add and subtract as necessary. This is usually within a few hundred bucks.
So my question is this: How SHOULD I respond to a customer that has obviously taken the time to educate themself and knows what they want, but it is either unavailable, or I need some other piece of info? Do I send a quote on something close just to show that I'm willing? Also, on the "Best price on Camry" customer, should I fish for more info, or, as other dealers seem to be doing, quote an LE 4cyl 5spd. with no added options? What is the best way to ask for more info, even complicated info, while still showing that as soon as I get my ducks in a row, a price will be forthcoming?
Comments
buy...There are no facitities at Auto Shows to print conracts, DMV docs, etc.
Typically cars that are presented at Auto Shows are the newest offerings...Discounts are available on older, more readily available items...Just like every other commodity...
There is a big difference between life without dealerships and life without car salesmen. The service department is the one that keeps my car running. The sales department... they're the ones who buy me a can of Coke or Pepsi once every few years. They are far more dispensible--I can get my own can from the vending machine.
Tony
I guess you're right, that's what this discussion is all about: buying cars on the Internet, eliminating the hassle of traditional sales.
Tony
"I'm soooooo confused." ~ Fonzie
If manufacturers sold direct to the consumer, cutting out the "middle men/women", what a world!
Who would sell "Mop and Glow", overpriced accecessories, stereo upgrades and gasp....pin striping and window etching.....LOL.
Why the cost alone to the cheap suit manufacturing industry would be terrible....:)
Colors on the 'net also look identical to real life, so no problems there. Or yo could just sit on the side of the road, waiting for all the variations of a model to go by.
All kidding aside, cars and houses are 2 big ticket items that can be researched to death on the internet, but have to be experienced in person before you buy (for ost people).
Dealers serve a valuable purpose, it just seems to be the sales process that people don't like, not the convenience of picking up a fully prepped car, and having someone show you how it works, not to mention doing all the paperwork for you.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
BUY DIRECT! That's the way!
Hey, sounds good to me! Sense more consumers are becoming informed due to the internet, less need for non-value added parts of the sales chain, in cars apples or potatoes. Oh and less games to boot.
Other than laws in states that protect the dealership model, very little in the way of progress to a new model of distribution, i.e. direct sales IMHO. Wonder when Wally's world will start selling cars?
Most of the stuff you mention - prep, paperwork, warranty service, eyeball shopping, etc. - could be (and, will be, IMO) easily worked around once manufacturers and customers recognize the benefits and savings.
I don't see dealerships totally eliminated, but already there are good alternatives to 'old school' sales; and the market for that can only grow as sales floor customers continue to get jerked around AND come to recognize it's not necessary.
Just a few years ago there was a very substantial automaker who purchased quite a few major dealer groups all around the country...they filled the showrooms with factory trained product specialists, instituted a low one price selling philosophy, built beautiful, bright and well staffed dealerships etc. Just what consumers told them they wanted...They failed to realize that consuemrs say one thing but do something else.
The local independent dealers clobbered them and essentially wiped them out of business. The major mfg sold all the dealerships back to local dealers and crawled back to corp hq with their tails between their legs and checkbook a few billions lighter.
I'm pretty sure BMW owns the Westchester BMW store.
I think also that a manufacturer w/o a large market share would have the most incentive to make a major alternatives sales effort.
Suzuki?
How are things in the world of Subee??
online and most of my emails to dealers asking for
a price quote on a specific unit ARE IGNORED!!
Why would dealers do that, you ask? Cuz they
want me to CALL them so that they can make all
sorts of promises they can deny later! Dealers
make their profits by obscuring the deal, and many
just won't respond to one's emails.
This is particularly acute in limited compet'n
areas such as Hawaii. I'm so tired of getting
NO responses and NO cooperation from Hawaii stores
who routinely rip off the customers for thousands
ABOVE msrp that I'm on the verge of buying used
from Hertz, just cuz I can pull up data & PRICE
on hertzcarsales.com. Cars must be the only
product in America getting the real price is a
challenge----I'm a real estate investor and even
on apartment buildings the Agent will help you
come to a "real" value...amazing, huh....
SO, onine shopping IS simple...and in Calif I
find half the dealers are willing to respond...but
if you're in a small or remote town forget it!
p.s. ever known a poor car dealer?? (NOT
salesman, I said "dealer")...
of the internet deal is that you request a deal
upfront...if the dealer condescends to respond, if
the price is close to Edmunds TMV or Cars Direct.
com or your bookstore-bought price guide, then you
go ahead and go to the dealer to complete, right??
If the price is out of line, I say don't give
that dealer another shot at your business. I feel
the net quote should be "real", and, if not, then
try to find another dealer...and I don't mean you
should walk over $100 on a $20K to $40K vehicle,
either!
I'm moving to Volvo at the end of the month, and already have meetings going regarding the business development end of it.
I'm selling cars like crazy, though! It's fun being back in the game. I hope to have at least 20 burning gas by the 31st.
Thought about dropping the manufacturer a complaint? I've read here on Edmunds that some dealers only have an internet dept because the manufacturer forces them to. I'm wondering what the manufacturer would think about the lousy service and price gouging.
Most deaalers aren't dumb enough to give you a number to shop.
A method that works better wold be to offer a price. " I'm willing to pay 20,775 for your car"
Or better yet, why not go in (gasp)in person?
Pick out a car you like, and make them a serious, committed offer to buy.
Also...sorry...but judging by the tone of your post, you are hostile toward the car business. This may show in your e-mails and perhaps that's why you are being ignored.
If you want to buy a car, follow Isell's advice. I know that some people don't like the car buying experience, but if you have a definite plan and stick to it, you can enjoy it and get a car for a decent price.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/faq/rizzo.html
Good luck!
Tony
Perhaps you prefer to go down to the dealer's showroom, spend the whole day negotiating with manipulative salespeople and end up paying close to MSRP!
"Want that car with or without the lube job, sir?"
Is that a rhetorical question?
I will say that if you want to get the absolute lowest, no doubt about it, my neighbor won't beat me on this, price, then, yeah, you got to phone, fax, and/or visit every dealer in a 100 mile radius. I was willing to accept that my price was probably $200-300 above the "absolute lowest" to spare myself that hassle.
I agree with you, but in order for you to 'know what you're willing to pay' you have to 'do your homework' on the internet first. When you have the right info you can go either way: contact different dealers with your offer, or go down to a certain dealer and 'cut to the chase'!
Of course, the salesman has to go talk to the sales manager, so we wait around for 5 or 10 minutes looking at the car brochures or other new cars in the showroom. No problem.
Of course, many of our offers are turned down. If that happens, we leave.
Violinist's point was about using remote buying to eliminate a portion of the hooey, and I still think his method has value. I did essentially the same thing only via the net; and the result was to eliminate a bunch of driving around, pointless jabbering, and attempts to strike a deal where we just weren't close enough to begin with.
It beats me why one dealership is willing to sell at $1-2K less than another; and, frankly, I don't much care. As buyer, I wanna find out which is which with the least hassle and buy the durned car.
'Tain't a date; it's a deal.
audi--I believe what you are saying about the manufacturer direct disaster, but your explanation leaves me wanting for more accurate info on this matter. It is hard for me to believe that if a store was as nice as what you describe with knowledge product specialist and the lowest price in town, that they failed. They may have had a low price, but if they were undercut by other local dealers, then that explains their failure. They would have to be willing to (as one local add in my paper says) "beat anyone elses best price by $500".
The internet has definately changed car buying. In pre internet days dealerships had to support every aspect of the car buying experience, including reasearch and pricing. IMHO, the discusion here is about these roles changing. Yes we need dealerships to look and test drive cars and to prep and deliver cars. We need dealerships for service, etc. But like what has been said earlier, it is basically state laws that are making buyers buy from dealerships, no market forces. Buyers can research technical aspects, prices, etc online. Buyers can use phone and email to get prices (when the dealers are willing to sell this way). The role of the dealership and the salesman is changing. It is sad to see this great new idea being wasted. It held such promise when first introduced, but unfortunately has been manipulated into just another lead feeder for dealerships. No one, except carsdirect.com has real pricing online, no one will email a real price quote without you giving a bunch of personal info, and very few dealers have accurate up to date inventory info on the web.
"no one will email a real price quote without you giving a bunch of personal info" - not entirely so. Maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of the dealerships I contacted via their own websites responded with competitive quotes, and there was no personal info in my quote requests beyond an e-mail address. I've described the tone of my quote requests above, and I think an intelligent person would infer from my request that I was a serious buyer seeking to narrow down the field before beginning more specific negotiations. Several dealerships 'got it', and we moved forward.
"very few dealers have accurate up to date inventory info on the web" - I didn't verify accuracy, but most of the dealerships (Honda) I approached had online inventory searches, which I believe were accurate. Of course, the way Honda merchandises (trim lines with few options) works well for this; but I believe even manufacturers which play the option game (Toyota, for example) could be well shopped if the customer is wanting a common build.
My take on the market in my area (West Tenn) was that some dealerships support an effective net sales effort while some simply use traditional sales methods on the internet. The beauty of it, for me the buyer, was that I could separate one from the other and cut through a huge amount of traditional sales hooey.
My other big take was that once you've struck an initial deal via the net, the dealer has a chance (mine took it) to run the old games.
Having a straightforward buying option is a wonderful aid, even if one chooses to 'deal' with a 'dealer'.
LOL, 'offering a price first' is totally different when you've got control over the time you spend and real alternatives to the 'negotiation' you're involved with at the moment.
I enjoy visiting dealers and making an offer face-to-face with a salesman. Other people like to do most of their negotiations over the internet. Whichever method you like, it really is nice when you find a way to make car buying more fun and still get a great deal.
With almost 100% certainty I bet if you walk on to landru's car lot and ask for the price of a vehicle he will quote you MSRP. This has happened to me a noumber of times. Kinda funny I guess. This seems like a big waste of time to me. It seems better to let the salesman know up front that you have done your research and that you know the vehicle you are looking at sells for $100 over invoice in your area. At one dealership the price went from MSRP to $2000 below invoice in about 20 minutes.
rivertown...great observations. i was also basing my posts on shopping from last spring. I got very few email price quotes back and the services like ABT and Stoneage are a joke. I have learned from here that sending an email with every dealer cc'd is not the way to go. I was thinking of writing an email and sending it to each dealer individually. Maybe some prose about a friend bought there and they said they got a really good price with not a lot of hassle. At least for the first round. Of course then, I would take the low bidder and see who could beat it. Should I sign the bottom "Who wants to sell a car today?" LOL
I agree, the multiple copies aren't the way to go.
I dunno, but I'm beginning to wonder if my experience wasn't uniquely good.
I was shopping/buying Honda for an over supplied car; there were Si's not selling like hotcakes. Maybe that was part of it.
It seems like Honda was really encouraging net sales. The sites were good - inventory searches and quote request forms. And, though a few dealers didn't have sites, most seemed to. And there was a good dealer find function on the Honda USA site.
Rather than e-mail, I used the quote request form available on the dealer sites. So, no dupes.
I filled out the request form completely and truthfully - with one exception. I gave no identifying info beyond my e-mail address. Where a phone or address was required, I put in an obvious dummy - along with a request to contact me only by e-mail; and where last name was required, I typed in 'none'.
In the comment section, I simply told the truth - that I was replacing a totalled car, that I expected the claim to be settled within 2 weeks, and that was my time frame for completing a purchase. I also said I'd be using either my bank or the dealership for financing, depending on the rate.
Some dealers replied immediately (within 2 hours) with a competitive quote. Others replied with 'questions', LOL. When the questions were legit, I replied quickly and truthfully (the only real choice to be made with that model is color). When the questions were sales hooey, I replied quickly, courteously, and directly: "Thanks for your reply, yada yada. I'd appreciate a quote on an '02 Civic Si, out-the-door price not including TTL. Before taking more of your time and mine, I want to find out if we're in the same ballpark with price."
In retrospect, I think it was clear that I was serious prospect who knew what he wanted carwise and that I just wasn't gonna play haggle games. I think it also helped that I didn't need to mess around with a trade-in and that I wasn't a problem financing case. I hope I'm not replacing a total again in the future, and my plan is to sell my trade-in privately - just to keep the deal simple. BTW, the reasons for my 'out-the-door not including TTL' request were that I live within 300 miles of several states AND that I wanted to cut out ALL of the haggle room.
Truly, about 1/2 the dealerships I contacted this way were willing and able to play by these rules. One even offered a competitive price, to complete the deal remotely, and to deliver the car and the final paperwork to my door. Very Cool!
Having thought a lot about it since Dec, I think the keys are to be serious about wanting a specific car, to use the net tools that are in place, to simplify the deal like you should anyhow, and stick to one's own buying plan. (This included a couple of replies reading, "Thank you for the info. I'll get back with you when I've seen some other quotes.") Honda, I think, is set up to do business like this. Other lines with an 'options sales strategy', like Toyota for example, could be bought the same way, I think, by visiting a lot or two to see what the common builds are.
Doing the MSRP haggle dance just isn't necessary, I'm convinced, unless, of course, the car one wants to buy is really selling at MSRP.
P.S. If anybody's interested, I'll share some of the hooey responses I got and the outcomes of those interactions.
Perhaps you could talk about how in a seance with your late grandmother, she told you to buy from dealer x, and that the final price would be 4k below invoice. People generally don't wanna mess with the dead, so they'll probably give it to you no questions asked!
So my question is this:
How SHOULD I respond to a customer that has obviously taken the time to educate themself and knows what they want, but it is either unavailable, or I need some other piece of info? Do I send a quote on something close just to show that I'm willing? Also, on the "Best price on Camry" customer, should I fish for more info, or, as other dealers seem to be doing, quote an LE 4cyl 5spd. with no added options? What is the best way to ask for more info, even complicated info, while still showing that as soon as I get my ducks in a row, a price will be forthcoming?