If you make a straight, complete quote request, you can usually tell from the reply if the internet salesguy is open to negotiation.
I've included in my quote request something like, "I'll be buying within the next two weeks, and I don't want to waste your time or mine. So, please let me know if this is your best quote or if you have some room to negotiate." Some saleguys seem to like that and come up with a clear no-haggle quote at a good price. Others HATE it.
If it's not clear whether there's wiggle room or not, it's cool to ask, short and sweet, "Have you got any room to move on this quote?" I wouldn't ask that if I didn't have a better quote, though; and there's always the delete button if the reply is rude. There's always a dealer who wants your business. Some of them really get it that they can take less money if they spend less time.
Will offer a competitive price right out of the chute. A good salesman won't.
The internet manager's primary job is to move units. This increases the dealer's allocation so there are more cars available for the retail department. The internet manager at a decent store is too busy to quibble over price and wants to get it over and done with. Don't expect a lot of negotiating.
A floor salesman, on the other hand, has the responsibility of maintaining the profit margin on the cars he sells. He is more likely to start the negotiations at MSRP than the internet guy, and you can expect a drawn-out negotiation.
I've had 'salesman' respond to internet quote requests, though. If the buyer does the homework, though, and makes a complete quote request, it's easy to tell 'salesman' from 'internet manager'; and you need to deal with each differently.
Examples of replies I got: "Salesman": 1st reply - "Thank you for you interest in the Honda Civic Si quote that you requested via the internet. The vehicle is on our lot and available immediately." (no quote, LOL) 2nd reply - "The invoice on the Civic SI is $17,821 and we would look for a offer over that. A lot of our customer pay 3-4% over on the Civic SI. Please contact me at #XXX-XXX-XXXX so we can do something to replace your car. Hope to here from you soon." follow up - "Just wanted to see how did we fair with the pricing information that I gave you. I also would like to know how soon you were going to be in the market."
"Internet sales manager": 1st reply - "Thank you for your interest in the 2002 HONDA CIVIC SI quote that you requested via the Internet. The vehicle is on our lot and available immediately. Our Internet price for this vehicle is $14995 plus tax, title and applicable fees. I would also be happy to meet with you at your convenience to answer any questions, as well as provide the keys for a test drive." 2nd reply - "Our fees are $51.44 Documentary fee and $8.oo for a Drive Away Sticker." follow up - "Thought you would like to know that Honda has 1.9% financing for up to 60 months on all new Civics. This program runs until January 2, 2003. We have a great stock of Civics here at . . . "
After I bought, I e-mailed everybody who'd given me a quote saying that I'd bought at price X and in city Y, hoping the info would be helpful. I got mostly TY's, 'enjoy the car', etc. in reply. Some of the 'salesmen' are still writing.
The job isn't done when you get a quote you like. You still need to be prepared to walk when you go to pick up the car.
In my deal (not the 'internet sales manager' in my example above), we played through the 'higher miles test drive car', the 'mats, muds, and pinstrip', the 'doc fee', the 'sit and wait on the finance guy', the 'theft insurance', the 'window etch', and the 'extended warranty' scams before I got out the door. What could have taked 10-20 min actually took 2 hours. LOL, had the 'salesman' spent a quarter of that time making sure the battery was charged, the mats were in the car and not just on the paperwork, and the tires aired up, I'd have been happier; and I think he'd have made more money.
Maybe my point is that the 'negotiation' ain't over 'till the papers are signed and you're driving home in your new car.
I am the Internet sales manager for a dealer here in West Texas. Sadly enough that is the attitude I take. People get mad when I say that, but it all comes down to the bottom line.
I buy leads from third party providers and spend several thousand dollars each month. I look at this as advertising cost. However, you would not believe how many people send me leads that are for people who can't buy.
I received a lead from a guy who is from my area, but is currently in Kosovo! I get literally dozes of leads each month from kids. I am sorry, but most of the time, these same people never respond to any email they get. And I am sick of paying out hundreds of dollars for kids playing games. Phone calls are how I check to see if I am spending my money correctly. It is the only way I have to check on how my ad money is working.
If there is a phone number, at least the person I am talking to is serious enough to take the time to talk to me. If they do not have the time to talk to me, I really do not need to spend my valuable time and money trying to take of them.
For example: I live in an area where there is very little use for 4X4. But fully 1/3 of all the leads I get for trucks and SUVs are for 4X4. Then when they find out that 4X4 cost $3,000-$4,000 on a new truck, boy do their minds change.
I have sent or received 42 emails so far from one person. Most of these would have been eliminated with a ten min. phone call. I do not mind using email. But the fact is, if you refuse to give me a valid phone number, then my chances of selling you a car are so slim that it is hard for me to justify the time to find you the best car for the best price.
I am willing to bet that if you do not give valid contact information, that you spend at least twice as much time as you need to looking for a car. Even if it is on the Internet.
You probably complain that dealers are not straight and honest with you. I try very hard to be so. I am slowly building up a very nice base of repeat and referral customers by doing this--- but I have to ask, by not giving valid contact info, are you treating the dealer like you want to be treated? You can’t be straight up and honest with a dealer, yet you complain when he's not with you?
Try straight talk and see where it gets you. You will find some jerks that try to play games, dump them, fast. But when you do find a good one, tell somebody!!! And try showing a little loyalty sometime.
I don't ask for a quote, internet or not, unless I'm seriously planning to buy.
If I wanted to do business on the phone, I'd call you.
If you don't wanna do business on the net, you could probably save some cost bucks by not buying leads or posting e-mail addresses for internet sales managers. Either way, though, I won't fill up your in-box with quote requests if you don't reply to the 1st request (or perhaps a 2nd, follow-up, request if you've got a deal I'm really interested in).
When the dealer's website quote request form (I don't request quotes through net buying services) requires a phone number, I put in a fake, along with a comment not to call until it seems like we're enough in the same ballpark to set up a test drive or meeting. LOL, if you don't honor my request on that, I figure it serves you right to talk to the girls at Suzie's Massage Parlor.
From what you guys are saying, there aren't many serious buyers who do business like I do. However many there are, though, some dealers seem to want 'em. Maybe 2/3rds of my quote requests yeilded replies, and at least 1/5th were very competitive quotes from the get go. Given that I'd much rather spend a day traveling to pick up a car than the same amount of time jawjacking in a showroom or on the phone, my way of buying a car works great for me.
Dunno how to suggest telling serious net buyers from the kids playing, though I can see the prob. My quote request is gonna leave little doubt about what car with what options I'm trying to buy; and it won't take you 2 min to reply if you know your inventory. If your shop has a net page with an accurate on-line inventory search, LOL, it might take you 20 secs.
FWIW (admittedly close to nothing if there are few serious buyers like me), I'd say replying to a quote request quickly with a competitive quote on the car specified and with any info you can give briefly on incentives to buy (financing, service deals, etc) is a good way to net a quick net sale. My experience tells me some dealers really get the idea while others really don't. LOL, some are still sending me e-mail although I've let 'em all know I've made a purchase. Yep, I'm glad those guys don't have my phone number; I've got too many telemarketers calling as it is.
I am also using the internet to request quotes from Internet dealers via their dealer website. I know what others are paying for the EXACT same vehicle (thanks to Edmunds.com!). Still I am running into internet managers that seem angry and say there is NO WAY that someone can be buying the vehicle for that. Then I calmly reply, here is the link to Edmunds.com, please go to the XXXX forum, see post #'s XXX,XXX, etc as for examples of where I am getting my #'s.
I even feel that I am being fairly generous by saying that I not expecting them to match the price, just be more competitive than their initial offer. Still, I get an attitude. If you can't come close to my offer, fine, just say that can't do it and leave it at that. It is at this time, I am also so glad I did not give my phone # or address out to these dealers.
I understand that maybe my experiences are from the minority and not the majority of internet dealers however and I am sure many are very descent, honest, hardworking people.
I could tell whether an internet sales manager was open to negotiations pretty much from get go. Most sent competetive (within $200-$300)quotes quick, and I figured haggling wasn't appropriate. Some obviously didn't have a clue, and I simply 'TY and I'll get back with you'ed. A couple had some 'tude, but 'delete' worked great for them.
I never could get a quote equal to the lows I saw on the boards, except for one dealer a considerable drive away. I ended up buying very local and without much 'tude. A 200 mile drive (to a fun town) would have saved me $300 and another longer fun trip would have saved me $800. The local guy always has an advantage, if he doesn't blow it with 'tude or greed.
If you're getting a LOT of 'tude, my guess is you're wanting a bottom dollar deal. It wouldn't be worth the hassle to me. Rather than hassle, I'd cast the net wider and have a nice day's drive to pick up the new car.
You might wanna ask the posters you're reading for links or dealer's names and get a net quote for yourself. That'll give you something by which to rate the quotes you're getting. LOL, a salesguy once posted a deal he'd gotten; it took another salesguy to get the same deal.
changes rapidly and varies according to geographic areas. Some internet managers have posted here that they get hundreds of leads per month. Our internet requests have dropped from a high of about 40 per month to less than 10 every month. And talking to other dealerships it seems everyone around here has noticed the drop.
The "get a quote" button on Ford's website has just become a pain. For Blue Oval certification we are required to provide a quote within 24 hours. However, this has become a complete waste of effort for the Ford dealers in our area as none of these quotes even result in a "Thanks, but no thanks" much less a sale. Over the past 6 months every one of the few sales that started on the internet were to customers that left phone numbers.
I agree with the above posters that without a phone number, quote requests are absolutely worthless.
but I've got plenty of other things to do that provide much better results than just being an information clerk to non-buyers.
I'm curious how much time you think it takes to respond to a quote on say an F-250 XLT with 15 options, (price with and without leather please), on a 24 and 36 month lease with 0 and 2000 down, with a 1998 Jeep Cherokee on trade?
of the total population, a very tiny percentage is in the new vehicle market at any one time. .... and a very tiny percentage of this population is in the market for a vehicle made by the manufacturer(s) represented by a typical dealer.
and an exponentially smaller percentage of this population actually makes any contact with a specific dealer.
having been fortunate enough to encounter these contacts, what i don't understand is the next cut.
why a dealer would trash (for any reason) all but a tiny percentage of this population.
Of course, you should use your time as you think best.
To your specific question - I can get MSRP and invoice on that truck and a couple of sites' wholesale and retail on a '98 Jeep Cherokee inside of two minutes on the net, without breaking a sweat. If I were clear about my own cost structure and I had lease calc software, I'm pretty sure I could come up with the numbers and put together an e-mail inside of 10 minutes. 'Twould have to be ballparked, of course, 'till the trade was appraised.
How much time would it take you to work up that quote?
Of course, if complicated quotes like that aren't worth the time however it figures out, you could always reply that you need to see the trade before being able to give an exact quote and leave that net business to someone who wants it.
What mileage did you base your trade value on? Did you work numbers on a new 4x2 or 4x4? Did you assume that the buyer could wait for a factory order or did he want one in stock?
And I assume you don't need a quote from a dealer to "ballpark" anything, like most proficient internet users. What would your "bottom-line" be?
Even I wouldn't expect a solid quote if the carbizguy hadn't appraised my trade.
I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help. Direct questions without replies to direct questions is one part of car buying I successfully avoid with net buying.
I wasn't looking for any help. Just trying to give you some insight into how it is, as opposed to how you may think it is to answer typical quote requests.
"Direct questions without replies to direct questions..."
In my previous post I'd asked you directly "How much time would it take you to work up that quote?"
Instead of giving me a direct answer (and maybe imparting some insight), you asked me 4 questions and stated the obvious (a little snidely) in the one sentence that wasn't a question. You sure made your point with me. Maybe not the one you wanted to make, though; or maybe in addition to the one you wanted to make.
So, direct questions without replies to direct questions is one part of car buying I successfully avoid with net shopping. That stuff happens a lot on the showroom floor and on the phone. When it happens on the net, I can drop it whenever I want to, having spent less time and energy. Like I said earlier, I'd much rather spend time traveling to get a car.
When do you test drive the cars you wish to buy? Do you give the salesperson who's time you spend an opportunity to sell you a car?
By the way, I see nothing wrong with your method. If a internet salesperson doesn't like your attitude or method they can always hit delete too.
Personally, I would never quote someone payments or a price until I talk to them on the phone. One reason only - if I don't talk to them I just keep investing minutes after minutes via email trying to come up with the words that will magically make the customer come to my dealership. Pretty soon I have 30 minutes invested in a person who I have no relationship with, and on a whim they will purchase elsewhere. They will probably have a much worse experience once they get to the dealership, but hey they saved a few bucks...
I admit it, I'm good on the phone. I can determine what kind of person you are, and how to handle you, talk to you on your level, and many times get you into my store.
Still, I can see why you would want to do everything via email. Yes it takes you more time but from the large number of your posts here on Edmunds time is something you have in spades...and thats ok! I wish I had your job, whatever it is...
Average time for a new car quote, assuming it is a readily available configuration (it usualkly isn't) is about 2 minutes. Now, if you want something like... Avalon XLS Bucket Seats Cloth seats Sunroof no VSC
First, I run a search, several different ways to see if I can find one, or one close enough in "A" staus that I can swith it's configuration. Time:5-6 mins Next, assuming I can't find one (75%), I track down the dealer trade mgr (1-30mins), and sk him if Toyota WILL build one like that. If no - time to email the customer. (This is much easier to explain by phone) If yes, begin specing a build. Time:about 10mins to make it accurate. Then - email the customer with a price and time frame. Total time: about 15-45 minutes. Which is fine, as long as you're serious. I'm not complaining about taking time to help my customers. It's my job. But from reading several posts on here, it seems many are unclear as to how long it can really take to get a quote. Again, if you want a commonly avalilable configuration (which most people don't know what IS common), I can have a quote in a few minutes, pretty as you please. If you want an oddball, or just something that MUST fit your crietieria exactly, it can take 45 minutes to get all the information I need together. (FYI, Toyota doesn't offer dealers a "Build" an invoice option. We have to pull invoices from several vehicles that have various PARTS of what the customer is looking for, then add/subtratct as necessary to figure what one liekthat SHOULD cost.) Again, I'll gladly spend 45 minutes building a vehicle for a customer - I just hate doing it, only to recieve an email back like "I'm sorry, that must have been my daughter. She's 13 and won't be in the market for quite some time. Please do not email us again."
If you believe everything you read on the internet you may never buy a car.
I have no idea how some of these sites are able to post what people have actually paid for their cars. There are many elements of a sale that can effect pricing. Was there a trade in involved? etc...
I recently had a nice couple on an Odyssey. They had done their "research" and were armed with file folders. They "knew" the EXACT prices other people had paid for their Odysseys.
Well...they were dead wrong. No dealer would have sold a hard to get EX-RES Odyssey for those prices. Not a chance.
They also "knew" what their 149,000 miles Dodge Caravan was worth.
If you stop at a dealer and make an offer in person (which takes about 10 minutes, from my experience), the sales manager knows you are serious. Wouldn't that make him more likely to accept a very low offer?
For example, if I offer $20K over the internet, they might refuse it. However, if I am there in person with my checkbook, I think they might be more willing to accept it. Am I wrong?
On an ultra hot car no...but on most cars your last post is right on target.
nothing gets my attention more than a consumer standing in front of me with the checkbook out.
This guy has, by far, the best chances of getting a super low price on a car....We see lots of people who threaten to buy..but nothing works like money on the table and the words.."I am ready to buy NOW"....This is the guy who gets the lowest prices almost without fail.
I admit I lack the patience to work internet sales. I don't want a bunch of e-mail pen pals who refuse to communicate via traditional methods.
But, that's me. A person who walks in, no nonsense, ready to buy a car and drive it home, that is a person who will get my attention along with a great deal!
No, there was no trade involved and no, I don't believe everything I read on the internet. Thats why I am finding information on a vehicle with the EXACT same options and I make sure I find many posts to verify the prices they were paying. Could all of the people who posted be flat out lying about their prices-I might be able to buy that if I found 1 or 2 price quotes, but I found about 10-15 all in the same price range.
Now, maybe its a regional thing and that those posts were all from an area that that model wasn't selling very well. Thats why I don't ask the dealer for the lowest quote I saw, just one that is more competitive.
Please see tk865's post above for a direct answer to your query. I was hoping that you'd infer from my post that the answer to your question was "more time than you think."
Maybe other dealers sold Yugo's for $30K. That doesn't mean your dealer will do that. If you offer him $30K, or even $35K, and he refuses to accept it, there is no reason to get upset. He owns the car, and it is his right to set a price however he wants.
If you think his price is too high, then don't whine and complain. Go somewhere else for your Yugo. They are very rare (since they had a half-life of one month), so be prepared to pay top dollar.
afk - The salesguy who does my test drive has a clean shot at my business if it turns out that his line is what I want to buy. He even has a copy of my DL, and I give him a good phone number if he asks. He can even sell me a car at a higher price than a net guy (because he's closer and has enough rep for congeniality to get me in there in the first place)- if he doesn't blow it with sales hooey, 'tude, greed, or the desire to use his phone skills. Snappy remarks about how I use my time don't help his sale much, either, LOL.
TY, TK - I've had the same sort of probs shopping Toyota with the options lists. FWIW, were I net shopping for a Toyota, I'd ask for a quote on a common build after seeing what was on the lot where I test drove.
I agree with Isell - there's customer hooey on the net, too. I ask for verification when something said seems too good to be true. Sometimes I get it; sometimes not. LOL, I've also received bona fide offers that salesguys have said or implied were 'impossible'.
Landru - I think TK's post says that what I think about the time it takes to give a net quote is sometimes right and sometimes wrong. His reasons make great sense to me. No offense taken, though.
FWIW, it seems to me that some salesguys, some buyers, some cars/deals, maybe even some lines just aren't well suited to net sales while some are very well suited.
No phone fear here. Salesguy calls that I didn't want or need, though, have been distracting and inconvenient; and it's a bunch easier for me to hit 'delete' or even change an e-mail address than to change a phone number when I've had enough of the distraction and inconvenience. To be fair, carsalesguys aren't the only ones to abuse the phone; there are a lot of folk using that bandwith. A new market condition, perhaps.
How am I disrespecting the dealer?? This is my process which I think probably other people to as well:
1. go to Edmunds.com 2. look at posts to see what others have paid for the EXACT (same options) car I am interested in 3. Make sure there are a number of posts having similar prices to make sure that someone is not just making up the numbers (I use the rule of 5 or more people having a similar low price as my criteria) 4. Contact the dealer thru the internet asking for a quote on a vehicle 5. If the quote is good, great, buy the car 6. If the quote is not good in my opinion (i.e. not competitive with other quotes I see on Edmunds.com, let the dealer know I do not accept their offer and tell them what offer I would be able to accept.
If they come back and say your offer is way out of line and that I must be making up the numbers, I show them exactly where to go on Edmunds.com to read the posts that I have read.
How is that disrespecting?? Its just like listing references in a term paper, you show them where you found your data.
What I find disrespecting is the dealer coming back with an E-mail saying my #'s are bogus and there is no way they can come close to them. One guy even said, "get real, good luck landing that price!" To me, there is no reason to use this type of language. Hey look, I didn't post those #'s on Edmunds.com. Why are you coming down on me?? Can't the dealer just say something like, "I'm sorry Mr. Palmer, we cannot meet or come close to your #, have a good day" and be done with it??
Whenever I get space cadet numbers, I just tell them there is no way to reach that number. I will usually add something to the effect that if they are unable to secure that price elsewhere, I would still be happy to honor my pricing in the future, incentives permitting. Also, I treat an internet buyer who says "I am ready to put a deposit via phone today for pickup in X days if you will sell Vehicle X for $Y0,000 OTD" just as seriously as the guy standing on my lot with his checkbook. I don't find palmer's method disrespectful at all. It depends on tone. If he said (and I've had this tone taken) "Well, EVERY REASONABLE dealer will sell for that, when you're STARVING IN THE STREET don't come CRYING to me because you're a GREEDY, HORRID LITTLE MAN" then, yeah, pass me the tranqs and get this guy off my lot. But if it's a well reasoned "I think I can beat that offer because I've spoken with several buyers who actually purchased for $X0,000, but if I find I am mistaken I'll email with a revised figure." - Hey, who can fault that?
Would you say, "Mr. Greenspan, your economic policies are wrong. Please refer to my freshman economics book."
Would you say, "Mr. Powell, your war plans are wrong. Please refer to the book I had in ROTC".
Telling a car dealer to refer to Edmunds is just as insultng, in my opinion. Car dealers are professionals and they know their job. We buyers should respect that.
"Can't the dealer just say something like, "I'm sorry Mr. Palmer, we cannot meet or come close to your #, have a good day" and be done with it??" Obviously, some of 'em can't. Just as obviously, some can - with courtesy and grace.
One of the great things about the net is blowing off the guys who can't. Another of the great things is working with the guys who can. For me, the net expedites telling one from the other and expedites a good deal. For it to work that way, though, you have to blow off the ones who can't. Blowing 'em off goes sooo smoothly if you apply the same courtesy you'd like to receive. The payoff isn't reciprocal courtesy, LOL; it's being done with 'em and whatever you've learned from whatever scam attempt was made.
bobst - Even some car dealers don't think all car dealers are professionals and know their job. I agree. I agree with you, though, if you're saying that those who do, do deserve respect and courtesy.
You are reading me all wrong. I am NOT telling the car dealers they are wrong. There is no wrong or right to pricing, just what the dealer wants to sell the car for and what the buyer wants to buy the car for. If there is agreement, thats a win/win for both.
I will only ASK the dealer to go to the Edmunds site if they continue to say that there is no way that anybody could buy this car for that. I just simply point them to where I got my info. I am not saying they don't know their job, just saying here is where I got my pricing. For you to say I have no respect for dealers is just wrong.
I STILL would like to know how Edmunds or anyone else is able to find out exactly what someone paid for their car?
But, assuming the information is correct...it's possible that the guy who said he got an incredible price actually did!
Maybe he happened to stop on a day the dealer had 20 identical cars on his lot and wanted to chalk up a sale.
Or maybe, the buyer had a nice trade that the store needed. They took a loss on the new car because they knew they would make a nice profit on the trade in?
But, using my example, when someone tells me people are buying a rare, high demand car for 200.00 over invoice, I KNOW something isn't right!
you must remember that any information source is just a guide. The new Mazda6 is a perfect example....Edmunds TMV has been moving around alot but right now a 6 cyl with the sport package is a hot car but other versions are not in such demand and low supply. I have no reason to sell a sport package car for anything less than MSRP because nobody can get the car....but edmunds is a thousand or so lower. so in this case, like others, the TMV number means nothing....
so TMV like other sources can be a good guide to work from but certainly not a bible..
remember that I said tone is what determines if it's a lack of respect. I don't care if he sends me a link to Edmunds, or a picture of his morning BM, and says that shows what he should pay. I don't care if he has a signed and notarized document from Sakeichi Toyoda himself saying he'll sell the car for X$. If it's presented in the right manner, I'm not offended, whether it's Edmunds, Sakeichi, or the big BM. Obviously it's important to the customer. , and means something to him. If my price doesn't meet his, I'll politely refuse, offer my assistance in the future, and let him go. If he can find a car for his price, and his intestinal tract really DOES have psychic powers, more power to him. I wouldn't expect him to buy from me if he can beat it by that much. If he get's to dealer XYZ, and they say "Sorry, we forgot to add undercoating, gerbil warmers, and fuzzy dice 2.0" , then chances are, as I returned the respect, he'll come back to me with revised pricing.
Of course, Colin Powell wouldn't say: "What can I do to get you into a war with Iraq today!" Oh, wait, he is saying that.
I think there's nothing wrong with saying "I saw this on Edmunds, Nada, Kelley, etc." I think it can help demonstrate to the dealer that you've done your homework, and you can dispense with a certain amount haggling right off the bat, Conversations like, "Sorry Mr. Prodigal, We're getting 3K over sticker for these here Azteks."
Once he knows that you know what he knows (to an extent), I believe you can move to a more equitable position.
I used to feel that if I masked my knowledge of the vehicle, I could trap the salesman in lies, and determine if I could trust him, and then proceed with the negotiation. This resulted in really long haggling situations. I've come to believe, especially now that I've actually been a salesman, that if you go in with an expectancy that you will be treated equitably, you will get that treatment.
Do your homework, present an offer within a grand of what you think is fair, and work toward it together.
***Caller ID*** Best invention since the phone, helps you weed out all telemarketers, RobCarSalesmen, and anyone else you don't want to talk to. Wife and I added it a year ago, and it's made all the difference.
I am not saying that Edmunds or anyone else knows what the dealer paid for the car. I am saying that people who visit Edmunds.com often times post what they paid for a car as consumers. The nice thing is that often those that post not only post the price paid, but often list all the options that were included on the car, the MSRP, the invoice, etc.
This helps give the potential buyer the knowledge that they are comparing "apples to apples" when they inquire about the same "tricked out" vehicle on a local dealers lot. If I were a dealer, that would be my 1st question if a buyer came in with a real low offer, I would say 1st "are you sure that the car(s) with those prices listed on the internet have the same options as the car you are interested in on my lot?". If a buyer knows all the options and the MSRP and invoice, there is little doubt that they are comparing "apples to apples".
I've seen those same posts as well, but in my experience, they don't talk about all the elements of the deal. What was their trade in, and what did they get for it. What was their finance rate. Sure, they might get the new car for 2K under invoice, but their trade in was 4K lower than book, and they've financed for 72 months at 11.9%. Gotta look at the WHOLE deal.
Some of these guys don't do net. They done tole ya they don't have the patience for it the time for it the skills for it the liking for it etc. There's nothing in the world wrong with that. They wanna do business in person, and they give a hundred reasons why that's best. That doesn't mean it IS best for you, but that does mean it's best to quit trying to do net with 'em.
I've seen the posts you're talking about. LOL, so have most of the folk you're trying to convince and, I bet, so have most of the internet sales managers you contact. That doesn't mean those posts are gonna cut any ice at all. Prodigal's right, they're not verifiable, in the first place. More importantly, they're not deals you have, personally, in hand, that you can take if the net guy you're e-mailing doesn't come up with a better deal. It boils down to, "Gimme the deal that guy in Whoflungdidit got."; and that just doesn't cut any ice at all. At most, those posts give you some ballpark info about where your best quotes are gonna fall. Use 'em as negotiating tools, and you're cooked. Use 'em to tell you who to spend your time with, and you're ahead of the game.
FWIW, doing it my way - straight, complete quote requests honestly indicating when I planned to buy to dealers within 300 miles of where I live - I got three quotes within $500 of the best deal posted on a message thread. I also equaled the best deal posted, by asking the poster to give me the name and location of the dealer he shopped. That was with no haggling, no negotiation, no 'tude, none whatsoever. We're talking within 3% of the best deal anybody, nationwide, cared to brag about and equaling the best deal if wanted to travel far enough.
A big part of this is in your quote request, and we can talk about that. But, FIRST, get the point - some do net, others don't. Don't WASTE your time with dealers that don't do net.
Prodigalson, I agree with you about other elements involved. But I make sure the quotes I see are based strictly on the sale of the car, no trade or anything else involved. I make sure I see the post say "no trade involved" or I don't consider the posting in my pricing information.
rivertown-I agree with you. Those dealers that dont like to deal internet, I leave them alone. However, there are some that do. I also know that most if not all dealers don't care at all about my research I do on the net in terms of pricing. Thats fine. But it gives me some idea of what I should be looking for in terms of a deal, thats all, nothing more. As I said in my earlier posts, I don't even expect the dealers to match these prices, just be more competitive with them.
Example: If I find thru the net that there are many posts (say around 10 posts for sake of example) from people who have made deals on a car (without trading a vehicle) for $25,000. If a dealer says $27,000 for the exact same vehicle, I know there is something wrong. I don't expect that dealer to come down to $25,000 exactly, but I would expect the dealer to come closer (say $25,500 as an example) for me to consider their offer. If they don't, thats fine, I try someone else. I only bring up the Edmunds thing when the dealer is going out of their way to say I am being very unreasonable about what I am asking.
Comments
If you make a straight, complete quote request, you can usually tell from the reply if the internet salesguy is open to negotiation.
I've included in my quote request something like, "I'll be buying within the next two weeks, and I don't want to waste your time or mine. So, please let me know if this is your best quote or if you have some room to negotiate." Some saleguys seem to like that and come up with a clear no-haggle quote at a good price. Others HATE it.
If it's not clear whether there's wiggle room or not, it's cool to ask, short and sweet, "Have you got any room to move on this quote?" I wouldn't ask that if I didn't have a better quote, though; and there's always the delete button if the reply is rude. There's always a dealer who wants your business. Some of them really get it that they can take less money if they spend less time.
The internet manager's primary job is to move units. This increases the dealer's allocation so there are more cars available for the retail department. The internet manager at a decent store is too busy to quibble over price and wants to get it over and done with. Don't expect a lot of negotiating.
A floor salesman, on the other hand, has the responsibility of maintaining the profit margin on the cars he sells. He is more likely to start the negotiations at MSRP than the internet guy, and you can expect a drawn-out negotiation.
I've had 'salesman' respond to internet quote requests, though. If the buyer does the homework, though, and makes a complete quote request, it's easy to tell 'salesman' from 'internet manager'; and you need to deal with each differently.
Examples of replies I got:
"Salesman": 1st reply - "Thank you for you interest in the Honda Civic Si quote that you requested via the internet. The vehicle is on our lot and available immediately." (no quote, LOL)
2nd reply - "The invoice on the Civic SI is $17,821 and we would look for a offer over that. A lot of our customer pay 3-4% over on the Civic SI. Please contact me at #XXX-XXX-XXXX so we can do something to replace your car. Hope to here from you soon."
follow up - "Just wanted to see how did we fair with the pricing information that I gave you. I also would like to know how soon you were going to be in the market."
"Internet sales manager": 1st reply - "Thank you for your interest in the 2002 HONDA CIVIC SI quote that you requested via the Internet. The vehicle is on our lot and available immediately.
Our Internet price for this vehicle is $14995 plus tax, title and applicable fees. I would also be happy to meet with you at your convenience to answer any questions, as well as provide the keys for a test drive."
2nd reply - "Our fees are $51.44 Documentary fee and $8.oo for a Drive Away Sticker."
follow up - "Thought you would like to know that Honda has 1.9% financing for up to 60 months on all new Civics. This program runs until January 2, 2003.
We have a great stock of Civics here at . . . "
After I bought, I e-mailed everybody who'd given me a quote saying that I'd bought at price X and in city Y, hoping the info would be helpful. I got mostly TY's, 'enjoy the car', etc. in reply. Some of the 'salesmen' are still writing.
The job isn't done when you get a quote you like. You still need to be prepared to walk when you go to pick up the car.
In my deal (not the 'internet sales manager' in my example above), we played through the 'higher miles test drive car', the 'mats, muds, and pinstrip', the 'doc fee', the 'sit and wait on the finance guy', the 'theft insurance', the 'window etch', and the 'extended warranty' scams before I got out the door. What could have taked 10-20 min actually took 2 hours. LOL, had the 'salesman' spent a quarter of that time making sure the battery was charged, the mats were in the car and not just on the paperwork, and the tires aired up, I'd have been happier; and I think he'd have made more money.
Maybe my point is that the 'negotiation' ain't over 'till the papers are signed and you're driving home in your new car.
I am the Internet sales manager for a dealer here in West Texas. Sadly enough that is the attitude I take. People get mad when I say that, but it all comes down to the bottom line.
I buy leads from third party providers and spend several thousand dollars each month. I look at this as advertising cost. However, you would not believe how many people send me leads that are for people who can't buy.
I received a lead from a guy who is from my area, but is currently in Kosovo! I get literally dozes of leads each month from kids. I am sorry, but most of the time, these same people never respond to any email they get. And I am sick of paying out hundreds of dollars for kids playing games. Phone calls are how I check to see if I am spending my money correctly. It is the only way I have to check on how my ad money is working.
If there is a phone number, at least the person I am talking to is serious enough to take the time to talk to me. If they do not have the time to talk to me, I really do not need to spend my valuable time and money trying to take of them.
For example: I live in an area where there is very little use for 4X4. But fully 1/3 of all the leads I get for trucks and SUVs are for 4X4. Then when they find out that 4X4 cost $3,000-$4,000 on a new truck, boy do their minds change.
I have sent or received 42 emails so far from one person. Most of these would have been eliminated with a ten min. phone call. I do not mind using email. But the fact is, if you refuse to give me a valid phone number, then my chances of selling you a car are so slim that it is hard for me to justify the time to find you the best car for the best price.
I am willing to bet that if you do not give valid contact information, that you spend at least twice as much time as you need to looking for a car. Even if it is on the Internet.
You probably complain that dealers are not straight and honest with you. I try very hard to be so. I am slowly building up a very nice base
of repeat and referral customers by doing this--- but I have to ask, by not giving valid contact info, are you treating the dealer like you want to be treated? You can’t be straight up and honest with a dealer, yet you complain when he's not with you?
Try straight talk and see where it gets you. You will find some jerks that try to play games, dump them, fast. But when you do find a good one, tell somebody!!! And try showing a little loyalty sometime.
: )
Mackabee
If I wanted to do business on the phone, I'd call you.
If you don't wanna do business on the net, you could probably save some cost bucks by not buying leads or posting e-mail addresses for internet sales managers. Either way, though, I won't fill up your in-box with quote requests if you don't reply to the 1st request (or perhaps a 2nd, follow-up, request if you've got a deal I'm really interested in).
When the dealer's website quote request form (I don't request quotes through net buying services) requires a phone number, I put in a fake, along with a comment not to call until it seems like we're enough in the same ballpark to set up a test drive or meeting. LOL, if you don't honor my request on that, I figure it serves you right to talk to the girls at Suzie's Massage Parlor.
From what you guys are saying, there aren't many serious buyers who do business like I do. However many there are, though, some dealers seem to want 'em. Maybe 2/3rds of my quote requests yeilded replies, and at least 1/5th were very competitive quotes from the get go. Given that I'd much rather spend a day traveling to pick up a car than the same amount of time jawjacking in a showroom or on the phone, my way of buying a car works great for me.
Dunno how to suggest telling serious net buyers from the kids playing, though I can see the prob. My quote request is gonna leave little doubt about what car with what options I'm trying to buy; and it won't take you 2 min to reply if you know your inventory. If your shop has a net page with an accurate on-line inventory search, LOL, it might take you 20 secs.
FWIW (admittedly close to nothing if there are few serious buyers like me), I'd say replying to a quote request quickly with a competitive quote on the car specified and with any info you can give briefly on incentives to buy (financing, service deals, etc) is a good way to net a quick net sale. My experience tells me some dealers really get the idea while others really don't. LOL, some are still sending me e-mail although I've let 'em all know I've made a purchase. Yep, I'm glad those guys don't have my phone number; I've got too many telemarketers calling as it is.
Excellent post! My sentiments exactly.
: )
Palmer
I am also using the internet to request quotes from Internet dealers via their dealer website. I know what others are paying for the EXACT same vehicle (thanks to Edmunds.com!). Still I am running into internet managers that seem angry and say there is NO WAY that someone can be buying the vehicle for that. Then I calmly reply, here is the link to Edmunds.com, please go to the XXXX forum, see post #'s XXX,XXX, etc as for examples of where I am getting my #'s.
I even feel that I am being fairly generous by saying that I not expecting them to match the price, just be more competitive than their initial offer. Still, I get an attitude. If you can't come close to my offer, fine, just say that can't do it and leave it at that. It is at this time, I am also so glad I did not give my phone # or address out to these dealers.
I understand that maybe my experiences are from the minority and not the majority of internet dealers however and I am sure many are very descent, honest, hardworking people.
I never could get a quote equal to the lows I saw on the boards, except for one dealer a considerable drive away. I ended up buying very local and without much 'tude. A 200 mile drive (to a fun town) would have saved me $300 and another longer fun trip would have saved me $800. The local guy always has an advantage, if he doesn't blow it with 'tude or greed.
If you're getting a LOT of 'tude, my guess is you're wanting a bottom dollar deal. It wouldn't be worth the hassle to me. Rather than hassle, I'd cast the net wider and have a nice day's drive to pick up the new car.
You might wanna ask the posters you're reading for links or dealer's names and get a net quote for yourself. That'll give you something by which to rate the quotes you're getting. LOL, a salesguy once posted a deal he'd gotten; it took another salesguy to get the same deal.
The "get a quote" button on Ford's website has just become a pain. For Blue Oval certification we are required to provide a quote within 24 hours. However, this has become a complete waste of effort for the Ford dealers in our area as none of these quotes even result in a "Thanks, but no thanks" much less a sale. Over the past 6 months every one of the few sales that started on the internet were to customers that left phone numbers.
I agree with the above posters that without a phone number, quote requests are absolutely worthless.
If no-phone number, no quote were the deal where I live, I'd try leaving the fake (along with a request not to call).
Landru, it's no skin off my nose, but does it really make sense to sweat the 20 min a month you spend replying to net quote requests?
I'm curious how much time you think it takes to respond to a quote on say an F-250 XLT with 15 options, (price with and without leather please), on a 24 and 36 month lease with 0 and 2000 down, with a 1998 Jeep Cherokee on trade?
....
and a very tiny percentage of this population is in the market for a vehicle made by the manufacturer(s) represented by a typical dealer.
and an exponentially smaller percentage of this population actually makes any contact with a specific dealer.
having been fortunate enough to encounter these contacts, what i don't understand is the next cut.
why a dealer would trash (for any reason) all but a tiny percentage of this population.
To your specific question -
I can get MSRP and invoice on that truck and a couple of sites' wholesale and retail on a '98 Jeep Cherokee inside of two minutes on the net, without breaking a sweat. If I were clear about my own cost structure and I had lease calc software, I'm pretty sure I could come up with the numbers and put together an e-mail inside of 10 minutes. 'Twould have to be ballparked, of course, 'till the trade was appraised.
How much time would it take you to work up that quote?
Of course, if complicated quotes like that aren't worth the time however it figures out, you could always reply that you need to see the trade before being able to give an exact quote and leave that net business to someone who wants it.
And I assume you don't need a quote from a dealer to "ballpark" anything, like most proficient internet users. What would your "bottom-line" be?
I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help. Direct questions without replies to direct questions is one part of car buying I successfully avoid with net buying.
"Direct questions without replies to direct questions..."
I don't know what you mean by this.
Instead of giving me a direct answer (and maybe imparting some insight), you asked me 4 questions and stated the obvious (a little snidely) in the one sentence that wasn't a question.
You sure made your point with me. Maybe not the one you wanted to make, though; or maybe in addition to the one you wanted to make.
So, direct questions without replies to direct questions is one part of car buying I successfully avoid with net shopping. That stuff happens a lot on the showroom floor and on the phone. When it happens on the net, I can drop it whenever I want to, having spent less time and energy. Like I said earlier, I'd much rather spend time traveling to get a car.
By the way, I see nothing wrong with your method. If a internet salesperson doesn't like your attitude or method they can always hit delete too.
Personally, I would never quote someone payments or a price until I talk to them on the phone. One reason only - if I don't talk to them I just keep investing minutes after minutes via email trying to come up with the words that will magically make the customer come to my dealership. Pretty soon I have 30 minutes invested in a person who I have no relationship with, and on a whim they will purchase elsewhere. They will probably have a much worse experience once they get to the dealership, but hey they saved a few bucks...
I admit it, I'm good on the phone. I can determine what kind of person you are, and how to handle you, talk to you on your level, and many times get you into my store.
Still, I can see why you would want to do everything via email. Yes it takes you more time but from the large number of your posts here on Edmunds time is something you have in spades...and thats ok! I wish I had your job, whatever it is...
Avalon
XLS
Bucket Seats
Cloth seats
Sunroof
no VSC
First, I run a search, several different ways to see if I can find one, or one close enough in "A" staus that I can swith it's configuration.
Time:5-6 mins
Next, assuming I can't find one (75%), I track down the dealer trade mgr (1-30mins), and sk him if Toyota WILL build one like that. If no - time to email the customer. (This is much easier to explain by phone) If yes, begin specing a build. Time:about 10mins to make it accurate. Then - email the customer with a price and time frame. Total time: about 15-45 minutes. Which is fine, as long as you're serious. I'm not complaining about taking time to help my customers. It's my job. But from reading several posts on here, it seems many are unclear as to how long it can really take to get a quote. Again, if you want a commonly avalilable configuration (which most people don't know what IS common), I can have a quote in a few minutes, pretty as you please. If you want an oddball, or just something that MUST fit your crietieria exactly, it can take 45 minutes to get all the information I need together. (FYI, Toyota doesn't offer dealers a "Build" an invoice option. We have to pull invoices from several vehicles that have various PARTS of what the customer is looking for, then add/subtratct as necessary to figure what one liekthat SHOULD cost.) Again, I'll gladly spend 45 minutes building a vehicle for a customer - I just hate doing it, only to recieve an email back like "I'm sorry, that must have been my daughter. She's 13 and won't be in the market for quite some time. Please do not email us again."
I have no idea how some of these sites are able to post what people have actually paid for their cars. There are many elements of a sale that can effect pricing. Was there a trade in involved? etc...
I recently had a nice couple on an Odyssey. They had done their "research" and were armed with file folders. They "knew" the EXACT prices other people had paid for their Odysseys.
Well...they were dead wrong. No dealer would have sold a hard to get EX-RES Odyssey for those prices. Not a chance.
They also "knew" what their 149,000 miles Dodge Caravan was worth.
Nice people, just horribly misinformed.
For example, if I offer $20K over the internet, they might refuse it. However, if I am there in person with my checkbook, I think they might be more willing to accept it. Am I wrong?
nothing gets my attention more than a consumer standing in front of me with the checkbook out.
This guy has, by far, the best chances of getting a super low price on a car....We see lots of people who threaten to buy..but nothing works like money on the table and the words.."I am ready to buy NOW"....This is the guy who gets the lowest prices almost without fail.
But, that's me. A person who walks in, no nonsense, ready to buy a car and drive it home, that is a person who will get my attention along with a great deal!
Now, maybe its a regional thing and that those posts were all from an area that that model wasn't selling very well. Thats why I don't ask the dealer for the lowest quote I saw, just one that is more competitive.
Sorry if that wasn't clear.
I've never heard of anyone being called and asked that information. I know, that if I were called I would tell the person it's none of their business.
I doubt if most people even remember EXACTLY what they paid even a week later.
I know I probably wouldn't. Most people move on with life.
Since your offers were refused, it kinda sounds like your numbers were too low.
If you think his price is too high, then don't whine and complain. Go somewhere else for your Yugo. They are very rare (since they had a half-life of one month), so be prepared to pay top dollar.
TY, TK - I've had the same sort of probs shopping Toyota with the options lists. FWIW, were I net shopping for a Toyota, I'd ask for a quote on a common build after seeing what was on the lot where I test drove.
I agree with Isell - there's customer hooey on the net, too. I ask for verification when something said seems too good to be true. Sometimes I get it; sometimes not. LOL, I've also received bona fide offers that salesguys have said or implied were 'impossible'.
Landru - I think TK's post says that what I think about the time it takes to give a net quote is sometimes right and sometimes wrong. His reasons make great sense to me. No offense taken, though.
FWIW, it seems to me that some salesguys, some buyers, some cars/deals, maybe even some lines just aren't well suited to net sales while some are very well suited.
1. go to Edmunds.com
2. look at posts to see what others have paid for the EXACT (same options) car I am interested in
3. Make sure there are a number of posts having similar prices to make sure that someone is not just making up the numbers (I use the rule of 5 or more people having a similar low price as my criteria)
4. Contact the dealer thru the internet asking for a quote on a vehicle
5. If the quote is good, great, buy the car
6. If the quote is not good in my opinion (i.e. not competitive with other quotes I see on Edmunds.com, let the dealer know I do not accept their offer and tell them what offer I would be able to accept.
If they come back and say your offer is way out of line and that I must be making up the numbers, I show them exactly where to go on Edmunds.com to read the posts that I have read.
How is that disrespecting?? Its just like listing references in a term paper, you show them where you found your data.
What I find disrespecting is the dealer coming back with an E-mail saying my #'s are bogus and there is no way they can come close to them. One guy even said, "get real, good luck landing that price!" To me, there is no reason to use this type of language. Hey look, I didn't post those #'s on Edmunds.com. Why are you coming down on me?? Can't the dealer just say something like, "I'm sorry Mr. Palmer, we cannot meet or come close to your #, have a good day" and be done with it??
Would you say, "Mr. Powell, your war plans are wrong. Please refer to the book I had in ROTC".
Telling a car dealer to refer to Edmunds is just as insultng, in my opinion. Car dealers are professionals and they know their job. We buyers should respect that.
Obviously, some of 'em can't. Just as obviously, some can - with courtesy and grace.
One of the great things about the net is blowing off the guys who can't. Another of the great things is working with the guys who can. For me, the net expedites telling one from the other and expedites a good deal. For it to work that way, though, you have to blow off the ones who can't. Blowing 'em off goes sooo smoothly if you apply the same courtesy you'd like to receive. The payoff isn't reciprocal courtesy, LOL; it's being done with 'em and whatever you've learned from whatever scam attempt was made.
bobst - Even some car dealers don't think all car dealers are professionals and know their job. I agree. I agree with you, though, if you're saying that those who do, do deserve respect and courtesy.
I will only ASK the dealer to go to the Edmunds site if they continue to say that there is no way that anybody could buy this car for that. I just simply point them to where I got my info. I am not saying they don't know their job, just saying here is where I got my pricing. For you to say I have no respect for dealers is just wrong.
I STILL would like to know how Edmunds or anyone else is able to find out exactly what someone paid for their car?
But, assuming the information is correct...it's possible that the guy who said he got an incredible price actually did!
Maybe he happened to stop on a day the dealer had 20 identical cars on his lot and wanted to chalk up a sale.
Or maybe, the buyer had a nice trade that the store needed. They took a loss on the new car because they knew they would make a nice profit on the trade in?
But, using my example, when someone tells me people are buying a rare, high demand car for 200.00 over invoice, I KNOW something isn't right!
so TMV like other sources can be a good guide to work from but certainly not a bible..
Ed
I think there's nothing wrong with saying "I saw this on Edmunds, Nada, Kelley, etc." I think it can help demonstrate to the dealer that you've done your homework, and you can dispense with a certain amount haggling right off the bat, Conversations like, "Sorry Mr. Prodigal, We're getting 3K over sticker for these here Azteks."
Once he knows that you know what he knows (to an extent), I believe you can move to a more equitable position.
I used to feel that if I masked my knowledge of the vehicle, I could trap the salesman in lies, and determine if I could trust him, and then proceed with the negotiation. This resulted in really long haggling situations. I've come to believe, especially now that I've actually been a salesman, that if you go in with an expectancy that you will be treated equitably, you will get that treatment.
Do your homework, present an offer within a grand of what you think is fair, and work toward it together.
Best invention since the phone, helps you weed out all telemarketers, RobCarSalesmen, and anyone else you don't want to talk to. Wife and I added it a year ago, and it's made all the difference.
BTW, Don't call me; I'll call you.
This helps give the potential buyer the knowledge that they are comparing "apples to apples" when they inquire about the same "tricked out" vehicle on a local dealers lot. If I were a dealer, that would be my 1st question if a buyer came in with a real low offer, I would say 1st "are you sure that the car(s) with those prices listed on the internet have the same options as the car you are interested in on my lot?". If a buyer knows all the options and the MSRP and invoice, there is little doubt that they are comparing "apples to apples".
Some of these guys don't do net. They done tole ya
they don't have the patience for it
the time for it
the skills for it
the liking for it
etc.
There's nothing in the world wrong with that. They wanna do business in person, and they give a hundred reasons why that's best. That doesn't mean it IS best for you, but that does mean it's best to quit trying to do net with 'em.
I've seen the posts you're talking about. LOL, so have most of the folk you're trying to convince and, I bet, so have most of the internet sales managers you contact. That doesn't mean those posts are gonna cut any ice at all. Prodigal's right, they're not verifiable, in the first place. More importantly, they're not deals you have, personally, in hand, that you can take if the net guy you're e-mailing doesn't come up with a better deal. It boils down to, "Gimme the deal that guy in Whoflungdidit got."; and that just doesn't cut any ice at all. At most, those posts give you some ballpark info about where your best quotes are gonna fall. Use 'em as negotiating tools, and you're cooked. Use 'em to tell you who to spend your time with, and you're ahead of the game.
FWIW, doing it my way - straight, complete quote requests honestly indicating when I planned to buy to dealers within 300 miles of where I live - I got three quotes within $500 of the best deal posted on a message thread. I also equaled the best deal posted, by asking the poster to give me the name and location of the dealer he shopped. That was with no haggling, no negotiation, no 'tude, none whatsoever. We're talking within 3% of the best deal anybody, nationwide, cared to brag about and equaling the best deal if wanted to travel far enough.
A big part of this is in your quote request, and we can talk about that. But, FIRST, get the point - some do net, others don't. Don't WASTE your time with dealers that don't do net.
don't waste your time with dealers that don't do net.
rivertown-I agree with you. Those dealers that dont like to deal internet, I leave them alone. However, there are some that do. I also know that most if not all dealers don't care at all about my research I do on the net in terms of pricing. Thats fine. But it gives me some idea of what I should be looking for in terms of a deal, thats all, nothing more. As I said in my earlier posts, I don't even expect the dealers to match these prices, just be more competitive with them.
Example: If I find thru the net that there are many posts (say around 10 posts for sake of example) from people who have made deals on a car (without trading a vehicle) for $25,000. If a dealer says $27,000 for the exact same vehicle, I know there is something wrong. I don't expect that dealer to come down to $25,000 exactly, but I would expect the dealer to come closer (say $25,500 as an example) for me to consider their offer. If they don't, thats fine, I try someone else. I only bring up the Edmunds thing when the dealer is going out of their way to say I am being very unreasonable about what I am asking.