Internet vs. Traditional Car Buying

vwguild

to email should typically be no more than 24 Hours. Exceptions will exist, of course. It is very important to remember that the Internet Sales Manager is delivering cars everyday, and cannot sit infront of the computer all day waiting for email...

My best suggestion is to call the Internet Managers that respond in a timely manner, and with an intelligent response to your inquiry...
A phone interview will give you a pretty good idea if you want to continue dealing with that individual. I cannot emphasis enough how important this is in seeking out a great Internet Sales Experience...This is, after all is said & done, a one on one transaction. Once again, there is more to this than simply price...

masspector

I agree with some other posters, you need some help from a more experienced buyer. You are falling for the worst car buyer trap. You want only one make and model in only one color. On top of that, it is a limited supply, high demand vehicle. Can you say MSRP or higher price?

I have a friend in a similar situation. Due to pricing he is looking at a small size suv. There are other altenatives in this market you should consider. I know Honda has great quality, but you should be open to some other alternatives. He looked at the CRV and did not like the way Honda structures its option packages, the limited availability, MSRP price tag, and that the back door should be hinged on the opposite side for the US market. He has scratched the CRV off of his list.
For example, the Mazda Tirbute sells for a few hundred over invoice and comes with a 4 yr/50,000 mile base warranty.

vwguild-Do you think it might be better to have someone else at the dealership do Internet vehicle deliveries? This would free up the dept salesmen and manager to respond to emails and follow up in a timely manner. I have never understood why even floor salesmen are used to deliver vehicles. it makes more sense to me to have a few trained hourly workers that deliver the car and explain the controls and give the buyer a tour of the dealership. This way the salesmen can concentrate on sales. Maybe during the week this is not that big an issue, but I cannot tell you the number of times that I have walked out of a dealership on a weekend because they were so busy that there was not a salesman to help me.

wayside1

"Touching on my previous question, why would you not ask for the person you've been communicating with for a while when you finally come to the dealership?"

I think there are several reasons:

1) I don't think most people consider trading a few emails as really establishing a relationship, so they don't feel like it is necessary that they talk only to you when they come in.

2) Most people either aren't aware or couldn't care less about how you are compensated. They are there to buy a car, not make sure that the first guy they talked to is the one that gets the commission. The dealership gets their money; how it gets divided up is not their problem. So what difference does it make to them who they talk to, as long as they are getting the agreed-upon price?

3) You may be getting skated. "Oh, you talked to Joe Internet? He's busy/not in today. I can help you, though."

Put a line in your emails that says someting to the effect that "This is an internet-only price, and is only available through me, Joe Internet. Other salesmen on the floor can't offer you this special internet pricing, so make sure you ask for me, Joe Internet, when you come in."

Maybe that will increase your odds.

mackabee

even with that line in the e-mail it still happens!
: )
Mackabee

mirth

Mack - maybe they're trying to see if another salesperson in your store will beat your quote. What probably happens is that the other salesperson is higher, the customer says I want $XX,XXX (your quote), and the other salesperson matches it. Since they're already sitting at the other person's desk, they get the sale. IMHO, it's a pretty inconsiderate and foolish customer that would try and pit a dealership against itself.

abtseller

inconsiderate or foolish customers out there.

Ed

hondas2000fan

I agree with all of your points, and yes, I am being skated. I just wonder how other dealerships handle this. Whether they call it an even split or hand the whole deal over to the Internet Manager. It seems to me if the floor salesperson doing the skating were to not get paid on the deal after doing most of the work, he/she would stop skating the Internet guy and turn them over before wasting his/her time. And while an email does not establish a relationship, I don't think Internet shoppers are looking for relationships. Price, price, price. I have had exceptions, and we have a great relationship, but price was the reason they came to me in the first place.

vwguild

In this business you have to watch your own back...Granted there will always be exceptions, but you need to create your own way of commanding your customer's attention...If you do that you will find the problem disolve and go away...

vwguild

the end of this thread! Customers?????

prodigalsun

If as I customer I go the internet route, is there an expectation that there will be more haggling, even if the salesman states "This is our special, super duper internet price of death"?

Is the internet sales process meant to eliminate the haggle and hassle for the customer, or just compress the negotiations. I'm sure every dealer handles internet sales differently, but opinions from the posters on this thread would be appreciated.

thanks,

Brad

mackabee

That was the original intent of internet sales. However I still get one once in a while that wants to dicker over the price. Depending on how good or bad the month is going I might come off another $100.00 or let them walk. I believe most dealer internet departments quote you a "no-hassle no-haggle price" if you want to haggle then come in the traditional way and deal with a floor guy/gal and go through the grinder routine.
: )
Mackabee

prodigalsun

So, Mack, in your experience, would the Grinder routine work out a better price than you would initially offer? I guess it would depend on how good a negotiator the customer is.

Are you given different guidlines than someone who works the floor (although I know you work the floor as well), i.e., you're quote is always 5-7% over invoice, regardless of dealer incentives, cash back, time of year, etc?

tblazer503

always worth a shot, what do I have to lose? If I gain $100, I gained $100, if I don't win, I still pay the same amount I would have...

In my recent purchase, I was greatly appreciative that my salesperson cut me a slight break... I wasn't trying to haggle, just didn't realize that my CU wouldn't finance over MSRP, which was good, but would have been nice to know before we were about to close... I guess he felt bad that I went from dishing out 500 down to 1800 down(and that included selling my first born, etc..) so he helped me out a bit...

mackabee

I have a set figure or percentage over invoice on every car. This would be after any rebates offered by the manufacturer. I tell customer that still want to negotiate this: "Mr/Mrs customer it's been my experience that customers that use our website or the internet to purchase a car want the best price upfront without having to go thru the back and forth and all the other games customers associate with car buying. Wouldn't you agree that's the reason you went that route? This is the price for the vehicle you are interested in." With the ones that want to negotiate and go thru the routine I say "Why don't we do this, since you already know what car you want to buy, let's start from MSRP and we can negotiate all you want until we get to the price I offered you thru the web initially fair enough?" This usually works and that's the end of it. As far as guidelines, we (Me and the GSM) sit down at the beginning of the month and see what incentives are coming in from Toyota. We also look at what has not been moving as we'd like and go from there. I'll put an MR2 Spyder on the website but no special price for those. They are still sticker cars. Some customers outsmart themselves also, they will check our website and go straight to the browse inventory and totally bypass the browse our specials page. That's where the deals are.
: )
Mackabee

prodigalsun

So, basically, no hard and fast rules on pricing, just something you and your GSM determine sitatuationaly for each model/car. Also, it sounds like you don't allow any haggling.

Do you think that if an educated customer came into the sales floor, and was willing to grind it out, they would get a better deal in person than they would from you?

mackabee

Oh, I'm sure it happens. We been know to "give" cars away on the floor too. The point is the internet allows you (customer) a hassle free, headache free buying experience. Like I said before, if you like the "root canal" experience then go the traditional way.
: )
Mackabee

linsalad

Hello all,

First time car buyer looking into buying a new car. I've been researching on Edmunds and read the two articles on Internet vs. Traditional method of purchasing a car. Being Internet savvy and more comfortable (especially since this is my first purchase) going at my own pace, I was thinking about purchasing over the Internet using the Internet salesman. However, I was wondering if Internet salesmen quote a price in a "take it or leave it" fashion, or if you can negotiate?

From doing a couple searches, I have seen that Internet salesmen tend to cut right to the chase...so I don't know what would happen if I got a quote and then said "well, that's nice, but how about this?"

Thanks!
Dave

CarMan@Edmunds

Hi linsalad. I suggest that you check out the following discussion here on the Smart Shoppers Message Board. There are a number of community members talking about the purchasing of vehicles through the Internet in that area. You may find the answers to your questions already posted there. If not, please feel free to re-post any questions that you have on this particular subject in that area. Here is a link for your convenience: Car_man "Part One: Internet vs. Traditional Car Buying" Nov 21, 2002 8:36am . Thanks.

Car_man
Host
Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards

tblazer503

You can uaually get a better deal by negotiating your pants off...

The internet sales managers generally sell by a pre-discounted no haggling price. For me this is the "easiest" way to go. I have personally seen my price move $140, but that's it. I paid about 500 over invoice for a '03 Accord EX 4dr about 2 weeks after it came out. This whole process took me about 2-3 hours including F&I, appraising the trade, etc.

The other option is to walk into a dealership, find the car, etc. Then the negotiating starts. You will generally start at MSRP + AMV(adjusted market value) of some type. Then you will haggle for a few hours, threaten to walk out a few times, etc. My '02 Trailblazer, using the old fashioned way took about 18-20 hours to negotiate. This was also purchased about a month after it came out, and they were trying to get MSRP. I ended up getting it for about 400 over invoice. Of course, you could get a real cool salesperson that just cuts to the chase and gives you a great deal off the bat, but then they are cutting into their profit for a quick sale(i think) besides, these are few and far between(from my experiences).

If you consider both sides, IMHO, it is pretty inconsiderate to try to negotiate an internet sale, especially when they are already cutting their profit to give you a good deal off the bat and not waste anyone's time. I got lucky and my salesperson felt bad for my situation, and he offered the cut in price, but it wasn't much, better than nothing, but I probably coulda done the $140. I surely wasn't a deal breaker.

So you can interpolate whether or not it is worth it. Saving a few hundred dollars over 5-10+ hours of more stress, and anguish is not worth it to me, and if you finance it, it's only a couple of dollars a month. (if you save 300.00 over internet pricing but takes 5extra hours over 60months is about $5.00/mo)

afk_x

Don't be surprised if the salespeople lose interest in a hurry.

Salespeople are paid on gross profit - no profit, no pay.

masspector

Good luck getting a dealer to quote you a price via email. In 96 I had a great experience shopping via email and phone, only had to go to a few dealers for trade appraisals. My last car buying experience in 02 was a mess. Only about 10% of dealers that I contacted even gave an email price quote. And most dealer websites are not set up to provide real time inventory info.

Also make sure you get an out the door price. Even the dealers that did give email quotes, when I went in person to test drive and talk to the internet sales guy, all of the sudden there were a bunch of fees.

You should always negotiate. The sales man may get irritated, but you will never know if you don't ask.

masspector

"Then the negotiating starts. You will generally start at MSRP + AMV(adjusted market value) of some type. "

The salesman may start at MSRP, but the buyer should always start negotiations at or near invoice (minus any incentives, minus holdback, minus the double secret end of year incentive, minus the dealer owns ten dealership bonus money, minus the 5% padding that the dealer always adds to the invoice, and manufacturer paid trip to Hawaii for the dealer; only kidding, should read minus any incentives) , depending on the vehicle.

manamal

I don't know, when I see MSRP +ADM for anything other than an extremely popular car (e.g., ODDESSEY type popular), I start at invoice - 10%....with a comment like, you have ADM, I start with SDL: some dealer loss. That usually takes ADM off the plate, and I come up to invoice....then I make a comment like "edmunds TMV is XXX....I will give you XXX-[price of doc fee], or I will be happy to pay TMV + TAX, Tags".

That breaks any log jam quickly.

isellhondas

The buyer can make this a long, drawn out, miserable process in their quest to "save" a lousy 200.00.

For some people it's worth giving up days of their lives for this.

From my vantage point...it's fun to watch sometimes!

zueslewis

after the initial "hit" by the customer when they negotiating started getting silly and the argument was over 10 or 20 bucks. The first $1000 would get out of the way in 5 minutes, then we'd spend an hour over 20 bucks - that always wore me out and ruined me for wanting to treat the people like royalty. It also ruined me for follow up stuff.

umyaya

I don't know about the whole haggling idea through the internet. I agree with the dealers that the point is to cut that out.

My plan was this, and I'd say most should stick to something like it. Determine the price you want, through doing your homework, and send that price in, along with any conditions you have. If no one comes close, then you are probably asking to low, given demand, and I would recommend taking the lowest offer and buying. I wanted 25,200 for the 03 EX-V6 Accord with NAVI. Most laughed, one or two came within 400, and so I took the lowest one right off. My point is, state your exact price. I think just by your language an internet guy can tell how serious and ready you are, and the ones who see that and give a good offer right off should get your business, as that alone says allot about who you'll be dealing with for the sale, and the future needs of the car. After getting a response to my initial offer, and accepting it without further haggaling, me and my salesperson formed a sense of trust with each other that I already appreciate. I have recommended others, and I think most salesmen know that if they jerk you around you will discourage others. Reward good behaviour, and practice it.

beechman

If it's only a "lousy" 200 bucks, or even 20 bucks, why not roll over and give the customer what they're asking for instead of drawing the process out? Or just "blow them out" and give yourself more time to work on a more profitable customer? I'm sure this has been asked before, just curious as to the reasoning of the sales folks for that course of action.

caramo

By the time it gets to arguing over a couple hundred dollars, it probably makes no difference to the salesman, since it most likely has been ground down to a minimum deal by that point. Hence, I wouldn't blow them out, since a deal is a deal, mini or not.

But if a sales manager gets deducted for "loser" deals, he's going to try to hold out for that extra couple bucks.

vwguild

Thank you..

zueslewis

many of which I've written where the net is $100 and I have to pay the salesman $75, $20 makes the difference.

So I ask, if it's only $20, why not roll over, Mr. Customer, and give the dealer what they're asking instead of drawing the process out?

Besides, if you'll go $20, surely you'll go another $20, and some people don't have respect enough to stop asking - on both sides of the car deal.

bobst

My wife and I just stopped at Starbucks this evening, and we had a card that gives us 10% off. I thought I saw $7.68 pop up on the register, and then she said it came to $7.30 with the discount. I didn't think about it, and gave her that amount.

A few minutes later I realized she had only deducted 5%, I asked her about it. She said the automatic 10% function on the register must not be working, and they would fix it. We left and got in our car to drive home, and I realized I was kind of irritated by her attitude. So I circled around the parking lot, parked in front of the store, went back inside, talked to the manager, and got my extra 38 cents back.

Now I am happy, and ready to watch the final of Survivor.

I can be kind of stubborn about small things, but that's just how I am.

By the way, I think Brian is going to win.

zueslewis

but am into the "principle" mentality.

rroyce10

..... Try buying at 2/3 different Wal-Marts and getting 2/3 different prices .. you will be driving around til Easter. l.o.l..

Terry.

hondas2000fan

Very well said. Thanks for the great post.

isellhondas

We do blow people out. People outsmart themselves every day in their zeal to get the "best" price.

It can be, literally, sickening.

mfletouva

I spent a few hours a dealer looking at cars, drove one and decided I wanted it, so I gave a dealer a 'final number' once and said that I would buy the car that price, no higher..at the time, we were about $800 apart. He went to his manager, came back, and we were $500 apart. I said, ok thanks for the test drive, call me if you want to sell it at my number and walked out. He came running after me, told me to let him talk to his manager and then the manager came out and gave me an extra $300, so we were $200 apart...I said, well that's still not my number. He said, yeah, but are you really going to ruin hours worth of a deal over a lousy $200? I said, well, isn't the better question are YOU? You're going to get it back in doc fees anyway! After a good 20 minutes more of this, of him trying to show me I was getting a good deal, he came down another $200 and sold me the car...

But, the point is, why would the dealer be willing to throw away a deal for a relatively small number like that and not expect the customer to do the same? And if he was able to sell me the car for my price anyway, why make me spend a few hours getting to it? I will NEVER understand that part of the biz...

zueslewis

You have to admit it - consumers want to negotiate and please don't fib and say you don't.

You know darn good and well if you stated your number and the dealer said "Sure, no problem!", you'd kick yourself thinking there was more money on the table for you, whether there was or not.

I've been at the end of the month, needing one more deal to hit a bonus level, the boss is in a good mood and we jumped on a customer's offer to purchase. He freakin' walked!!!

He walked because we were so eager, he just KNEW there was money on the table. I sold him the truck a week later, but I missed $800 in bonus money for meeting the customer's price first time out of the gate.

It cost me a lot of money - I'll bet customers never thought about it from that angle.

bobst

You said that you talked to the salesman for "a good 20 minutes more". What a waste of time. If you had got in your car and started to drive away, the salesman would have immediately met your price.

Then you would have gotten home earlier and not missed watching the Simpsons. I bet you missed a great episode, like the one where Capt. McCallister, with his great seafaring accent, says of Homer, "He's not a man, he's a remoseless eating machine".

zueslewis

vwguild

thing that I have encountered of late is the rather increasing number of Internet customers who are pursuing a price rather than a value.

With increasing frequency I am finding customers
who, once having secured an Invoice plus price,
are totally surprised to learn about such basic things as Warranty coverage, Safety features, car features and benefits, and options.

The typical purchase process for any product is
dicovering the differences between items and making an informed decision based on need, budget, and value.

For some it seems that the entire purchase process has been turned upside down...Secure a price and then discover what you bought.

How is a merchant going to impart the value of one product over another when there is no opportunity to do so.?

isellhondas

What's that? It's all PRICE, isn't it?

Isn't that the only thing that matters?

mackabee

I've found that out also. Last 4 or 5 internet "deals" I made were also to very uninformed customers about the features on the vehicle. All they were interested in was the "best price" for a Toyota X. Go figure!
: )
Mackabee

abtseller

just because someone owns a computer doesn't mean that they know how to use it.

Ed

zueslewis

vwguild

to be inquisitive; not inflamatory...

To me, the idea is to use the *net* to research
products, secure some basic pricing information, but most importantly...once that is done; find a Dealer/Internet Manager that is knowledgable &
compatible.

We are not talking about buying a camera or DVD
player here...This is a major investment, and to do so based simply on a price, the veracity of which is only discovered after all is said and done, hardly seems astute.

Lately, I just find myself scratching my bald head, and asking "What is all of this about?"
Is there no concern about what happens after the sale? Will this person be my advocate if I have a problem or need a special favor? Will he give his Demo to drive for an afternoon if I need to leave my car in Service?

Just a couple of thoughts...

jrdwyer

We recently bought an Olds Minivan. I used the net for research and invoice pricing and I called a few dealers looking for a specific model (I guess now you can search GM new car inventory online). Most didn't have one. A local dealer who I had bought from before did. So we went in and test drove. The salesperson was green but nice. Unfortunately, the model we wanted was sold to someone else that same day. We went home. The salesperson called back a few days later saying they had traded with another dealer for the model we wanted and the van would be in later that day. We went back, test drove, and bought the vehicle for $325 over Edmunds listed invoice after 15 minutes of negotiation. Easy.

Could I have gotten the van for 200-300 less? Maybe. But I had to compare the value of my wasted time shopping other dealers to the advantages of this dealer which were:

1. Free loaner cars during warranty repairs. I have used this once already.

2. Outstanding service department. They had already demonstrated this by doing scheduled maintenance properly on my Mazda.

3. The van was ready to go and I had gone over it thoroughly for defects and found none.

4. Closest Olds dealer to our home. This saves travel time during service.

In our case, these advantages were more important than the possibility of saving a few hundred dollars by shopping every dealer around. I guess the opposite mentality of many people who negotiate an internet sale.

gluey

hello, i just started researching cars. i'm trying to prepare to buy a car that i like ... am considering looking at the internet sales. i would appreciate it if anyone has any response to my questions:

if the car is purchased through an internet salesperson, where is it possible to get the car serviced? is it still possible to get the car serviced at a dealership in town where you live?

also, how can i locate different internet salespeople? are there popular .com sites to browse? or is there a connection between internet and car dealerships??

thanks!

landru2

Internet salespeople work for the dealerships. Depending on the size of the store, they usually just handle internet inquiries from their dealership websites or from their dealership email.

As far as getting service you can get warranty service from any dealership that handles your brand. However, if the situation arises, don't expect to be at the head of the line if it's between you and one of the store's own customers. I don't think this a big issue except at the busiest of service departments.

landru2

Just thought I'd relate an email request I got today. The guy writes that he has emailed this to virtually every car dealership in the city. He says that he will test drive the 3 best offers he receives. What specific vehicle does he want? A used half-ton truck, Ford, Dodge, or GM, A V8 engine - any size is fine.

No mileage requirements, no year requirements, no body-style requirement, no 2wd or 4wd, no auto or manual.

Delete.

abtseller

Next.

Ed