email me for complete details, 800#, Web site and POC info. All cars no exceptions for now--sell from allocation with deposit. Dealer has sold all Civic and Accords for $316 over invoice since 1997. I have bought there several times. INKY
We just bought our 2002 Accord EX V6 there at $316 over invoice. We bought our 1994 Intrepid there at dealer invoice. When you buy a car there you also get a loaner car when you bring it in for service or whatever. The loaner cars are new cars, mostly 2001 Accords. That's where I'm going to buy my 2003 Accord.
I guess I'm fortunate since they're less than a mile down the road and I know most of the people there. :-)
Are you an army officer who bought an Odyssey back in 1998? If so, you were so active in the Odyssey forum back then telling people about the 316 over invoice deal in OK. Glad to see here again. My regards.
02 Accords can go for less than invoice because Honda currently has dealer incentives on them (1250?), which for the buyer can function like a rebate--because you can buy a car for less than "cost." 03 Accords will not have incentives to start with, and probably won't for a long time, therefore unless the dealer for some reason wants to advertise a "loss leader" there is no way they are going to sell one for less than invoice. 316 above invoice is an incredible price for an 03 Accord, since it will probably be a very hot car indeed.
We bought our Accord there in March for $316 over invoice. We were going to buy there anyway but decided to check out the deals in a bigger city and they wouldn't come down more than a few hundred dollars. Maybe because I look young he was going to try and take me to the cleaners.
Next time I go to the dealer I'll ask if it's still gonna be $316 over invoice on the 2003 Accords.
I know the dealer in Oklahoma, and they quoted the same for Odyssey's and '02 CR-V's when they first came out (now they charge sticker). If they think they can meet the demand for the new Accord at near invoice price, I think they seriously underestimate what this car is going to do. Hey, but we knock down their doors to get these elusive deals. Be prepared for the "we don't have any, but we can get you one in a few weeks!" line. In actuality it'll be more like a few months. They'll have you're deposit, though, so you'll have to wait. Kudos to those who have the patience! $316 over invoice would be a helluva deal when these cars hit showrooms next month.
Yes, after word gets out, demand will exceed allocation quickly. Yes, I was active in 98 with the Odyssey craze for this deal up there. When this happens you would place order but told Nov allocation, Dec allocation etc. I bought from Aug or 1st allocation. This happened with Odyssey in 1998 when $316 over invoice( now sticker as mentioned above). It was hinted the $316 over deal may end once the car is officially out in Sept. So I was happy to lock in $316 over now regardless of wait but I doubt many of ordered at car at this point. INKY
It seems like everyone wants to split hairs on which car is better, Accord, Altima, Camry, Mazda 6 etc. Interesting since the Accord and Mazda 6 have not even hit the showrooms yet.
Honda Accord does seem very promising but I can't say for sure yet, since I haven't driven or even sat in one yet. Same with the Mazda 6. And since I bought my Nissan Altima 3.5 SE just last October, it'll probably be a few years b/f I buy again.
The one thing that irritates me is the fact that Nissan cut corners on my Altima and is forced to backtrack and modify the interior w/ better material just one year later. Sucks for me because they already have my money. Unless you are a potential buyer, it's actually worse that Nissan is improving the interior of the Altima. My car will depreciate that much faster.
The car rides just fine though, the suspension is not as firm as you think..especially after about 1000 miles or so.
The firm ride is overstated. I drove the Altima right after the Maxima, and the Altima's ride was much more solid and quiet. I think with the sales and demand for the new Altima, your resale will be just fine.
Im a dealer, and '03 pricing isnt even available to us yet...maybe within the next week or two...however...dont worry about the invoice just yet...it'll be at least 6 months to a year before you'll even approach it. the same thing happened in '98...as in '93...etc... some dealers will ask over MSRP, and some wont. your best deal in the beginning will be at the dealer who doesn't put "adds" on his car. you want an '03? you will pay for an '03. as with the Odyssey, Pilot, CR-V, and S2000....the next guy will.
Better yet how about "Avoid all 5 years of the 7th gen Accord if you don't want to be mistaken as a GM owner or having a car cheaper car then the Honda Civic. Note: Trannies may also fail and prepare to rev the life out the car before entering interstate highways"
is some latent hostility towards Hondas! To suggest that an Accord's resale value would be akin to that of some GM product is about the most baseless statement we've seen here in awhile. Not even a Nissan's is that bad!
And, I don't get your comments about the transmission. The transmission is also used in the more powerfully Ody, Pilot, TL/CL, and MDX, so I don't think durability is an issue. Having to maintain high RPMs would be more of an engine wear issue, or a non-issue in the case of a Honda powerplant...
The Camry was selling at $400 over invoice 2 months after it came out. Because of the crappy economy and the 0% financing and the massive incentives it will be hard for them to keep it at MSRP for a long time.
keep in mind that the camry was redesigned in appearance only, less some standard equipment. it wasn't changed like the accord is. also...no toyota sells for MSRP. honda has a talent for doing this. e.g. the odyssey, cr-v, pilot, and s2000. they will keep supply right at the demand level for awhile. maybe longer, maybe not. the '98 accord was sold at msrp for almost the entire first model year.
honda has never done 0%. period. they dont have to. why do you want to buy a car with 192 ponies that weighs more, handles worse, and has less standard equipment? to save money? of course...but car buyers buy for product 10 times more often than they buy for price, and the accord has placed itself a LOOOOONG way away from the camry in the market.
you may not want to be "first on the block", but lotas of people do, and they will be.
not having enough production capacity. Its a better option than Detroit has with too much capacity. Honda has been conservative in adding capacity to avoid the peaks and valleys of the market.
As for the "all-new" Camry - its about the same as the "all-new" Accord, which is a comprehensive re-engineering of the existing plaform. Also, Camry actualy added content to the LE this last time around...
I doubt that the 4 cylinder Accords will sell anywhere near the MSRP. I bought my 98 EX way under MSRP in Nov, 1997. EXV6 could be a different story however.
bowke, Plenty of Toyota's have sold for MSRP. The 97 Camry sold for close to MSRP for almost the first full year. The Land Cruiser, the same. The Highlander also did the same, in fact here in NJ, Highlander discounts are still kinda slim.
Accords also sold at MSRP when they arrived in 1997, especially the V6. It even had a waitlist. Back then, Honda had to ramp up the production and start importing Accords from Japan (this started in 1999, I believe). I was one of the lucky early birds because EX and EXV6 were in short supply for the demand here in Dallas area shortly after I bought mine.
And notice that one of the Autoweek reviews of Altima mentions that 'average' $$$ that a buyer spent on the new Altima was over $26K (to a maximum of $29+ K), you've got to think that Accord at MSRP wouldn't sound like a bad deal.
Well, HOnda made no where near the 35% mix of V-6 in late 97 and 98 but I think if the price is held to no more than $26k MSRP the V-6 will do well. Exceeding 26K is a mistake. I really do not see $1500 in additional content that Honda is talking about. The LX gets ABS, 5 speed auto and nice extras. That one if any should see the biggest increase. 2% on 25k is $500 folks. That is a big price increase in this competitive segment and with economy on the ropes. Camry lowered price for 02 when introduced. INKY
The guy who runs Ferrari was asked how many cars he would like to produce-one less than we can sell he said. If u want to save a few bucks-wait till just before the model year change and then go to a small town dealer and cut a deal-got my 97 accord that way-IIRC got some or most of his hold back-they were trying to get their allotment up.
The Accord will not be like the Odyssey, CRV, etc. There will be plenty to go around and can be had for significantly under MSRP by next spring. Honda can not be the "best selling car in America" by limiting production to keep prices high. There is also too much competition in this segment(yes the 0% has and will continue to impact Accord sales).
I am curious. Did anyone else go for ordering a 03 Accord for $316 over invoice from the dealer I mentioned a few days ago--or am I the only one going to to that? E-mail me with any questions on that one Jcro3717@aol.com The dealer is only doing the deal on currently allocated cars before Sept 8th when the car is officially introduced. I guess after that market conditions will bear.
I also agree that by January any Accord will be had for $500 over invoice, but I did not want to wait till them! INKY
MAPLE...THE DEMAND ON THE ACCORD IS MET EXACTLY...NO MORE, NO LESS. THEY DONT LIMIT PRODUCTION, THEY MEET DEMAND. BIG DIFFERENCE. THE 0% THING? HONDA DIDNT EVEN JUMP ON THE BANDWAGON AFTER SEPT. 11TH. THEY HAD RECORD MONTHS FROM OCTOBER THRU JULY EXCEPT FOR MAY. FIGURE THAT ONE OUT!! ALL I KNOW IS THAT THERE WILL BE A HIGH DEMAND ON THE '03 ACCORD, AND HONDA WILL MEET THAT DEMAND. THE DECISION ISNT HONDAS TO KEEP PRICES AT STICKER...ITS THE BUYING PUBLICS DECISION TO PAY IT. AND THEY WILL.
but bowke is right. Unless you live in an area where everyone owns a truck, I doubt you will be able to get an '03 Accord for less than MSRP. Demand where I live is ruthless. Guess I will have to wait it out and see. Stay tuned to "How much did you pay for an '03" in September.
this has nothing to do with the fact that im a salesman. this has to do with the fact that im on the front lines, and have my nose in every deal possible, and i keep tabs on the 30 other salespeople that sell them...believe me...i will want to know when the 1st accords are discounted heavily. for my livlihood, i hope later than sooner...lol.
im just trying to impart the info. that i have at my disposal. i dont put B.S. on here, just facts that ive come across working with these cars every day. i know there are other dealers here who may have more or less info. than i do...wouldnt it be in all your best interests to listen to us? especially if you will be in the market sometime soon. get all the info. you can, because the educated buyer leaves with money in his wallet!
p.s. the buyer who is the nice guy also gets the salespeople to work just a little harder to make them happy!
Is the published "invoice" price the same price the dealer pays the manufacturer? I say NO, because it impossible to make a profit selling an automobile at $500 over invoice much less below invoice.
For any enterprise to make a profit, its gross margin should be at least 20% to 40% above cost. So, for example, if the invoice price is $10,000 and the markup is 20%, the MSRP should be $12,000.
In this scenario, the gross profit is $2,000 from which the dealer must pay your commission, advertising, utilities, and all the supporting costs of running a dealership. Therefore, it is impossible to sell a car at or below invoice and still be able to continue as a going concern.
I understand that there are other profit centers such as financing and service but they are supportive in nature and cannot be relied on to generate the bulk of the dealership's profits.
In summary, how close is the published invoice price (on Edmund's etc.) to the "real" invoice cost? Until we know that dealers will continue to rip-off customers.
while it's nice to be the 'first in the neighborhood' to own one , i would not rush into buying ANY car in its initial release. wait a year and you: get a better deal, the factory works out its bugs, and you can read postings to find out how the vehicle is being received by the public (performance, crash tests, dependability, style, ect.). the test of time is the hardest for both car and enthusiast. i'm hopeful that the '03 will be the best accord yet dynamically but the buck-tooth grill looks like it needs a carot.
The invoice price is (with a few rare exceptions) THE cost of the vehicle to the dealer BUT there are more avenues of revenue/reduced cost open to most dealers.
The factory can an does offer incentives to dealers, sometimes cash, sometimes other things that the dealer would like to have/needs to have. Everything from remodeling help to financing their recievables to extending credit -- the 'terms' on which dealers 'buy' vehicles from the factory are very very grey for some makes.
Most folks who work at selling the vehicles do not make a fortune. The commissions are smaller than on other products of similar cost.
Dealers that do well usually have big volume and low overhead.
The service shop is NOT just "supporting" it is a huge part of the profitability. Between warranty work, maintaince and repair the bottom line on service CAN account for more than half of the PROFIT at some dealers.
Similarly the revenue and 'perks' throw off from finance can make the differenca between having a full salesstaff and being understaffed. The fees that finance generates that are returned to the dealer (either in cash or trips & other goodies) means a well run dealership can all but forget about having a transient sales force.
Don't forget the Rusty Jones/Fabric Guard/Paint Sealant/Extended Warranty/LoJack/ et cetera. ALL of those things can & do boast the PROFITABILITY of each unit WAY WAY higher than MSRP! Even the most honest, fair dealer is NOT going to ignore padding the fat deals to make up for the "razor thin" ones!
And don't overlook the Used Car side of the lot. True, volume tends to be lower there, but the mark-up rarely dips below $1000 per unit. And MANY of those cars come in with no cash outlay! The number of folks who still trade-in cream puffs is surprisingly high.
Don't misunderstand me, having a auto dealership is no sure-fire way to riches. The opportunity for fraud and huge losses is very real. Even the most profitable dealers still spend LOTS of hours away from their family & hobbies that other enjoy on evenings, holidays & weekends BUT the a smart dealer, with a firm grasp on where the cash comes in & goes out can run their business on deals at MSRP and USUALLY make enough BELOW MSRP to stay around forever.
How much below MSRP? Well, if every vehicle drove away at just $200-500, it would be darned hard, but like the airlines that can afford to sell some seats at $39 as long as significant portion are at $400, a 10:1 ratio of MSRP or more to $200-500 over is NOT unrealistic!
To arrive at true dealer cost for a given car, you must take the nominal invoice and subtract both holdback and dealer incentives [if any ]. At most dealerships, all talk of invading holdback is verboten until and unless you get to year-end time [ voila, like right now ], at which time just about anything goes at typical high-volume dealerships.
At many large dealers working on fast-moving, popular import brands [esp on the West Coast], moving the new car product is more important than making lots of money on each transaction. This makes life tough for lower-tier sales people, and for competitors who can't afford to keep up. This kind of dealership makes buckets of money on used cars [often at markups from 15-30% over wholesale costs] and at the service drive.
Rarely does a car sell "below cost" - but published, nominal "invoice" is often nowhere near the actual cost floor on a given car. Between that fact, and the points in the paragraph above, you have the appearance of "selling below invoice".
I work at a Honda dealership and not in sales, but just a note on being able to get a 2003 Accord below MSRP. If you remember when the new generation of Civic's came out in 2001-they were not dealing all that much and Honda did not have the best lease or financing on them in the beginning, it took a good three months for anything to happen where a good deal could be had. I leased a 2001 Accord EX coupe cheaper than a 2001 Civic EX coupe at the time. So wait until the first load of people get them, and then they will start dealing.
You cannot really compare to the phenomena of the Odyssey, Pilot and CRV to the Accord and Civic for they are newer to the Honda line and Honda knows to keep up with the Camry-is the main reason why they are dealing on 2002 Accords and getting rid of them as fast as they can-they have to have a lot of them when they are introduced to the market in early September.
As deluxcar were mentioning the dealers also make some $$ out of those people that pay for those plastic stripes for $200 and the dealer fee of $499 or so. I went to the mall today and a local dealer in the Miami ,FL area they had a civic 2 doors with a few extras and next to the sticker they had their price. Ready for this one $18,500.O' did i mention that it was a DX model. greetings from sunny Miami.
THANK YOU ALL FOR THE INPUT. THE DEALER INVOICE IS JUST THAT...THE PUBLISHED INITIAL COST OF THE DEALER FOR THE CAR. HOLDBACK IS USUALLY 1.5-2.5% BELOW THAT NUMBER, BUT THE DEALER HAS TO SELL THE CAR WITHIN A CERTAIN TIME PERIOD, OR THE MANUFACTURER DOESNT GIVE IT. IF THERE ARE NO DEALER INCENTIVES IN ADDITION TO BASIC HOLDBACK, AND THE CAR IS AGED INVENTORY, THEN YES...THE PUBLISHED INVOICE IS ACCURATE.
SECOND, DELUXCAR, THE TERM RIP-OFF IS PRETTY LOOSELY FLUNG AROUND THESE DISCUSSIONS...LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING...WHAT OTHER RETAIL PRODUCT ON EARTH HAS A PUBLISHED AND WIDELY KNOWN DISTRIBUTOR COST? FEEL LUCKY YOU CAN HAVE A STARTING PLACE FOR NEGOTIATIONS...BUY A HOUSE AND ASK THE REAL ESTATE AGENT THEIR SALES COST...YOU WILL LOSE AN AGENT AS FAST AS YOU ASK THE QUESTION. BOTTOM LINE, PLEASE USE THE 'RIP-OFF' TERM FOR THE DEALERS THAT REALLY DO IT. IF YOU BOUGHT A PAIR OF SHOES FOR $10 MORE THAN ANOTHER PERSON, DID THE SHOE STORE RIP YOU OFF? NO...YOU RIPPED YOURSELF OFF.
Go back a couple of hundred posts, and follow the gazillion online references for all of the pictures you can handle. Also online versions of Autoweek, Motortrend, etc etc.
Your input is desired and respected, but you should be aware that posting in all caps is considered the online equivalent of shouting, and many people find it distracting. Granted, it makes keyboard work easier, but it also makes reading harder. Thanks.
I bought my 1998 Honda Accord LX in October of 1997. This was when the new line came out. I was one of the first ones in my city to own one. I paid well under MSRP.
bowke, There is a reason why auto dealers were forced to place Malroney stickers on new automobiles because they were taking advantage of consumers.
Since the MSRP is usually an inflated and bloated price there was widespread apprehension as to the relationship between the "acquisition cost" to selling price. Therefore, reluctantly dealers made the so-called "invoice price" available so all could see how much of a gross profit they were making.
But there appears to a fudge factor in that invoice price, that number is deliberately inflated to make it appear that the dealer is making a modest profit.
A related situation is the case where lenders (and dealers) quoted a lower interest rate on a loan when they knew that in fact the real rate was much higher. For example, you may be quoted a rate of 7.0%, but with junk and hidden fees, the real rate or APR may be 7.9%. Thank goodness there are laws that force lenders disclose the APR to protect consumers from scammers. I just wish there was a similar law that would force dealers to disclose their net invoice, sort of "truth in buying" disclosure.
Comments
INKY
I guess I'm fortunate since they're less than a mile down the road and I know most of the people there. :-)
BTW, no I've never worked there. :-)
2002 Honda Accord 4dr Sedan 3.0 EX w/Leather in zip code 92508 as of August 12, 2002
CarsDirect.com Price
$21,700
(Incentive or rebates included in price)
MSRP
$25,760
Invoice
$23,225
Next time I go to the dealer I'll ask if it's still gonna be $316 over invoice on the 2003 Accords.
INKY
Honda Accord does seem very promising but I can't say for sure yet, since I haven't driven or even sat in one yet. Same with the Mazda 6. And since I bought my Nissan Altima 3.5 SE just last October, it'll probably be a few years b/f I buy again.
The one thing that irritates me is the fact that Nissan cut corners on my Altima and is forced to backtrack and modify the interior w/ better material just one year later. Sucks for me because they already have my money. Unless you are a potential buyer, it's actually worse that Nissan is improving the interior of the Altima. My car will depreciate that much faster.
The car rides just fine though, the suspension is not as firm as you think..especially after about 1000 miles or so.
And, I don't get your comments about the transmission. The transmission is also used in the more powerfully Ody, Pilot, TL/CL, and MDX, so I don't think durability is an issue. Having to maintain high RPMs would be more of an engine wear issue, or a non-issue in the case of a Honda powerplant...
honda has never done 0%. period. they dont have to. why do you want to buy a car with 192 ponies that weighs more, handles worse, and has less standard equipment? to save money? of course...but car buyers buy for product 10 times more often than they buy for price, and the accord has placed itself a LOOOOONG way away from the camry in the market.
you may not want to be "first on the block", but lotas of people do, and they will be.
As for the "all-new" Camry - its about the same as the "all-new" Accord, which is a comprehensive re-engineering of the existing plaform. Also, Camry actualy added content to the LE this last time around...
And notice that one of the Autoweek reviews of Altima mentions that 'average' $$$ that a buyer spent on the new Altima was over $26K (to a maximum of $29+ K), you've got to think that Accord at MSRP wouldn't sound like a bad deal.
INKY
The dealer is only doing the deal on currently allocated cars before Sept 8th when the car is officially introduced. I guess after that market conditions will bear.
I also agree that by January any Accord will be had for $500 over invoice, but I did not want to wait till them!
INKY
im just trying to impart the info. that i have at my disposal. i dont put B.S. on here, just facts that ive come across working with these cars every day. i know there are other dealers here who may have more or less info. than i do...wouldnt it be in all your best interests to listen to us? especially if you will be in the market sometime soon. get all the info. you can, because the educated buyer leaves with money in his wallet!
p.s. the buyer who is the nice guy also gets the salespeople to work just a little harder to make them happy!
Is the published "invoice" price the same price the dealer pays the manufacturer? I say NO, because it impossible to make a profit selling an automobile at $500 over invoice much less below invoice.
For any enterprise to make a profit, its gross margin should be at least 20% to 40% above cost. So, for example, if the invoice price is $10,000 and the markup is 20%, the MSRP should be $12,000.
In this scenario, the gross profit is $2,000 from which the dealer must pay your commission, advertising, utilities, and all the supporting costs of running a dealership. Therefore, it is impossible to sell a car at or below invoice and still be able to continue as a going concern.
I understand that there are other profit centers such as financing and service but they are supportive in nature and cannot be relied on to generate the bulk of the dealership's profits.
In summary, how close is the published invoice price (on Edmund's etc.) to the "real" invoice cost? Until we know that dealers will continue to rip-off customers.
The factory can an does offer incentives to dealers, sometimes cash, sometimes other things that the dealer would like to have/needs to have. Everything from remodeling help to financing their recievables to extending credit -- the 'terms' on which dealers 'buy' vehicles from the factory are very very grey for some makes.
Most folks who work at selling the vehicles do not make a fortune. The commissions are smaller than on other products of similar cost.
Dealers that do well usually have big volume and low overhead.
The service shop is NOT just "supporting" it is a huge part of the profitability. Between warranty work, maintaince and repair the bottom line on service CAN account for more than half of the PROFIT at some dealers.
Similarly the revenue and 'perks' throw off from finance can make the differenca between having a full salesstaff and being understaffed. The fees that finance generates that are returned to the dealer (either in cash or trips & other goodies) means a well run dealership can all but forget about having a transient sales force.
Don't forget the Rusty Jones/Fabric Guard/Paint Sealant/Extended Warranty/LoJack/ et cetera. ALL of those things can & do boast the PROFITABILITY of each unit WAY WAY higher than MSRP! Even the most honest, fair dealer is NOT going to ignore padding the fat deals to make up for the "razor thin" ones!
And don't overlook the Used Car side of the lot. True, volume tends to be lower there, but the mark-up rarely dips below $1000 per unit. And MANY of those cars come in with no cash outlay! The number of folks who still trade-in cream puffs is surprisingly high.
Don't misunderstand me, having a auto dealership is no sure-fire way to riches. The opportunity for fraud and huge losses is very real. Even the most profitable dealers still spend LOTS of hours away from their family & hobbies that other enjoy on evenings, holidays & weekends BUT the a smart dealer, with a firm grasp on where the cash comes in & goes out can run their business on deals at MSRP and USUALLY make enough BELOW MSRP to stay around forever.
How much below MSRP? Well, if every vehicle drove away at just $200-500, it would be darned hard, but like the airlines that can afford to sell some seats at $39 as long as significant portion are at $400, a 10:1 ratio of MSRP or more to $200-500 over is NOT unrealistic!
-Nominal invoice
-Holdback
-Dealer incentives / customer rebates.
To arrive at true dealer cost for a given car, you must take the nominal invoice and subtract both holdback and dealer incentives [if any ]. At most dealerships, all talk of invading holdback is verboten until and unless you get to year-end time [ voila, like right now ], at which time just about anything goes at typical high-volume dealerships.
At many large dealers working on fast-moving, popular import brands [esp on the West Coast], moving the new car product is more important than making lots of money on each transaction. This makes life tough for lower-tier sales people, and for competitors who can't afford to keep up. This kind of dealership makes buckets of money on used cars [often at markups from 15-30% over wholesale costs] and at the service drive.
Rarely does a car sell "below cost" - but published, nominal "invoice" is often nowhere near the actual cost floor on a given car. Between that fact, and the points in the paragraph above, you have the appearance of "selling below invoice".
What is the name of the dealer (and phone number or web site) who offers 2003 accords at 300+ over invoice?
thanks,
Jerry
jar1945@aol.com
Jerry
You cannot really compare to the phenomena of the Odyssey, Pilot and CRV to the Accord and Civic for they are newer to the Honda line and Honda knows to keep up with the Camry-is the main reason why they are dealing on 2002 Accords and getting rid of them as fast as they can-they have to have a lot of them when they are introduced to the market in early September.
greetings from sunny Miami.
SECOND, DELUXCAR, THE TERM RIP-OFF IS PRETTY LOOSELY FLUNG AROUND THESE DISCUSSIONS...LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING...WHAT OTHER RETAIL PRODUCT ON EARTH HAS A PUBLISHED AND WIDELY KNOWN DISTRIBUTOR COST? FEEL LUCKY YOU CAN HAVE A STARTING PLACE FOR NEGOTIATIONS...BUY A HOUSE AND ASK THE REAL ESTATE AGENT THEIR SALES COST...YOU WILL LOSE AN AGENT AS FAST AS YOU ASK THE QUESTION. BOTTOM LINE, PLEASE USE THE 'RIP-OFF' TERM FOR THE DEALERS THAT REALLY DO IT. IF YOU BOUGHT A PAIR OF SHOES FOR $10 MORE THAN ANOTHER PERSON, DID THE SHOE STORE RIP YOU OFF? NO...YOU RIPPED YOURSELF OFF.
There is a reason why auto dealers were forced to place Malroney stickers on new automobiles because they were taking advantage of consumers.
Since the MSRP is usually an inflated and bloated price there was widespread apprehension as to the relationship between the "acquisition cost" to selling price. Therefore, reluctantly dealers made the so-called "invoice price" available so all could see how much of a gross profit they were making.
But there appears to a fudge factor in that invoice price, that number is deliberately inflated to make it appear that the dealer is making a modest profit.
A related situation is the case where lenders (and dealers) quoted a lower interest rate on a loan when they knew that in fact the real rate was much higher. For example, you may be quoted a rate of 7.0%, but with junk and hidden fees, the real rate or APR may be 7.9%. Thank goodness there are laws that force lenders disclose the APR to protect consumers from scammers. I just wish there was a similar law that would force dealers to disclose their net invoice, sort of "truth in buying" disclosure.