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Comments
eagle63 is right on the money. Had Chevy or somebody else made a 4.7 V8 DOHC that spanks the competition in performance, smoothness and reliability their bragging would never end.
tomh12 says Toyotas are underpowered and that's why they're reliable. Excuse me, but any similiarly equipped domestic is just an underpowered or worse. How are the 4Runner, Camry and Corolla underpowered when compared to V6 Blazers and Explorers, Malibus, Tauruses and Cavaliers? Why aren't these "underpowered" domestics just as reliable as Toyotas, then?
Now somebody's going to say Toyotas are more reliable because they're not mass-produced like the domestics. Well, more Camrys are sold than any other sedan in the U.S., and there are more Corollas in the world than any other compact car. So that theory is blown out of the water too.
The recurring theme here is that the people who criticize Toyota products are always comparing the domestics to something Toyota doesn't even make - like saying the Tundra is "weak" while comparing it to trucks with larger displacement engines and forgetting all about the Ford 4.6 and Chevy 4.8. Can you imagine how the Ford and Chevy boys would be crying foul if they compared mismatched trucks to eachother? Comparing Chevy 5.3s to Ford 4.6s and calling F-150s weak? That wouldn't stand for long...
Basically, kg11's right. People wanting a big truck with quality and reliability are going to have to wait until Toyota gets in the game, because it sure doesn't seem like the domestics are delivering, especially GMC.
http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/otf0999.html
http://agmlemon.freeservers.com
Be sure to check how the owners' horror stories. Here's one sample among many:
Clay,
I sent the paper work in today to the BBB to accept arbitration, GMC has 30 days to fix my vibrating 1999 sierra truck, the technical expert sent out by the BBB said it was a manufacturing defect, it is a crying shame when you have to go to court to get GMC to try and fix your truck, the local dealer, Performance Chevrolet - GMC in Seneca, SC did not have a clue as how to fix this problem, I will never step foot on that dealerships lot again, I had to fight with the service manager (T.C. BRADY), the service director (KEITH KINGSTON), the only help I got was from the sales manager (RAY MURPHY) at least he tried to have them fix it, but he couldn’t do it all by himself, the GMC customer rep (REGINA NELSON) from Michigan, was lost, she started out the BBB arbitration with statement that the arbitration meeting needed to be over with at 12 noon( we started at 10:oo) as she had to pick up her son from summer school, this woman new she was having this meeting for 3 weeks, she should have made arrangements for someone to pick up her child for her, you could tell the arbitrator was not to happy to be told when the meeting was to be over with, as the arbitration proceeded Mrs. Nelson had none of her facts straight from the case, I had to set her straight and give the correct information as to what took place when and what repair attempts took place, this was totally un- professional and not what I expected from GMC, when this is all said and done I will be buying a Toyota tundra truck, as I have lost faith in gm products and this did not have to happen, but you will pay in the long run when all your customers have switched to foreign products since they are the only ones who stand behind their products and have pride in their workmanship and quality, you have lost a longtime gm customer as this was my 6th gm product in the last 20 years, but this last GMC truck experience has done me in .
kip
Attached is a letter that I wrote to GM using your site to send the complaint. I have a 1999 Silverado LS 5.3 V8 - 2 wheel drive with most of the same problems that your site has listed. I apologize about attaching an email, but at this point I am getting really tired of writing letters about these problems over and over, with absolutely no results from GM. I have my LEMON in the classifieds for sale at a real beating of a $ loss, and will be shopping at the Toyota dealer this weekend for a trade-in on the van I should have bought in the first place. The doors on this truck are completely useless in today's parking lots for almost any purpose. Once you open them you can not get a grocery basket in to unload with a car parked next to you. Clay - I work in an industry that makes an even more complicated product than a car -- Fighters and Bombers for the USAF. So I understand that when a new product is designed there are bound to be problems that were not anticipated. What I don't understand is the position that GM takes in these situations- They expect the consumer to suck-up all their design errors and have no idea that these consumers will never be return customers. I have to laugh every time I see a Silverado/ Chevy commercial saying they have the best quality and the most return customers. This will not be for long. As for me, I will not only never buy another GM product, but I will never buy another American car of any type. The American consumer probably has very little idea how much they owe to the Japanese car makers. What kind of product would we have now if they had not forced the American car manufacturers to re-think the quality issue years ago! Sadly they still have not learned enough, I saw an article several months ago about all the Japanese manufactures having full size trucks on the drawing boards. The comment from the American Manufacturers was they were not worried. This the same comment that they made about Japanese small car production and mid-size car production and luxury car production. I have no doubt that the Japanese will kick GM/ Fords [non-permissible content removed] when they finally do come out with a full size truck that is comparable to the domestic truck.
Marc Colunga
Now back to the future 3/4 ton Tundra. Alot of Tundra owners are first time truck buyers. Most first time truck buyers opt for 1/2 tons or mini-pickups. Toyota has had a fairly easy time selling the smallish Tundras, but few first time truck buyers go for a 3/4-ton. Since there's no first-time truck buyers market for a 3/4 ton Tundra, I think Toyota would have a hard time getting a 3/4 off the ground. For the first several years, sales would be a fraction of what the Tundra's are now which means Toyota would lose alot of money waiting and hoping the thing will justify it's existance. Are they willing to go for it?
Scorpio and Quad weighed in on my question and opinion intelligently. Perhaps Bama and Plut will bang heads and put a coherent sentence or two together and repsond to it-heck if we're lucky they might even answer without their usual anti-GM drivel!! Stay tuned folks...this could be good!
"Since there's no first-time truck buyers market for a 3/4 ton Tundra, I think Toyota would have a hard time getting a 3/4 off the ground."
Hehe. This one made me really laugh. I don't think Toyota is counting on attracting first-time truck buyers with its 3/4 ton Tundra. Rather, they are probably banking on the thousands of disgruntled domestic truck owners.
http://www.autonews.com/files/prod.pdf
What I am curious about is why the Chev boys want to talk about Mexican made Chev marketing disasters in a Toyota 3/4ton topic. I guess they are feeling just a little insecure. Or is it that they are glad that GM is outsourcing American jobs to Mexico? Oh well!
Maybe if GM started giving free visits to Taco Time with each purchase? Maybe a free Chihuahua? Those Chev marketing geniuses need to come up with some good ideas to try and sell their ugly duckling. At least they have convinced the diehard Chev boys that it is a truck. Amazing!
Hound, that's messed up!!! After all, bama is always quoting you and saying how correct you are.
The dude hangs on your every word.
P*R*O*D*U*C*T*I*O*N* !!!!!
North America Car and Truck Production!
http://www.autonews.com/files/prod.pdf
Bama, what you just proved is that Tundra is making more than they are selling! (Or that you don't have a clue about the difference between units produced and units sold
Here's Ryan's link again to the sales figures:
http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/otf0999.html
Good luck on this one now! ROFLMFAO!!!!
I have driven 4Runner, Camry, Corolla (daughter owned one), Blazer Explorer, Malibu, Taurus, and Cavalier. Have YOU? Every one of the domestics offer an engine that will run and hide from the Toyotas. Camry, with a six is the exception as it is pretty spunky, but gutless with the 4cyl. Blazer's and Explorer's 6 cylinder engine gives tons more seat of the pants excitement than 4Runner without a super charger. I am talking current production as well as going back to
pre '95. I have rented these vehicles while traveling and spent a decent amount of time in them. Similarly equipped domestics just have more power. Drive them and see.
I never said the domestics were as reliable as Toyota. I said "one of the reasons" Toyota is reliable is because of being underpowered, or marginally powered. You won't tear much of your drive train up without power!
FYI.....If I HAD to buy a Blazer, Explorer, or 4Runner, I would buy the 4Runner. I would buy a 6 cylinder Camry over the comparable domestics. I am not "ANTI" Toyota, I just realize that they do NOT do everything best.
Tom
What is the matter with you?
Lets see where this leads us:
Ford Ranger FX4, V6 with manual has been recalled (all together, all manual units, all demos stopped, all showrooms cleared of it, etc, can't sell it) for snapping the rear lockers. That problem requires total replacement of the rear axle. Do you know where those problems occured? Parking lot. Shopping malls.
Now......is that the Ford trademark now? We'll make a truck that has rear axle that can't handle the torque (from our OWN engine), sell it to people, wait till they snap teh axle in a parking lot 1 week later, and recall all of them? It's still the same 4.0L engine thats in other Fords.
Muscle is not everything. I love my Tacoma, I got about 195-200hp in it (At peak) from few cheap mods that I did, and even though I may not come ahead of Ford Ranger with a 4.0L, you know what makes me feel better? Knowing that Ranger got its engine only 1 year ago. Before that, it had a crappy 3.0L that didnt pull enough hp, but had more torque, with a load of problems to go with it. Tacoma held its edge for 8 years now, it didnt kill any people with exploding tires.
If I wanted a muscle car, I'd start saving up for a new Supra or something along those lines. I'm not racing my truck (much), and the hp I have is enough.
Toyotathon! It's a great time to make a stealin' Doug deal for your testosterone deficient, 1 star side impact rated taco wrapper, get you into a 7/8 scale 1/2 ton lemonundra, with state of the art drum brakes!!! Impress the big dogs with I-force wee-power!!! LOL!
1. Wow, do you think you can translate better
than me? WHAT exactly did you translate to
come up with that nonsense???
2. Say what you will about the Tacoma. Maybe
I'll even take your comments seriously when
you can suggest a different truck which:
A. easily out-fourwheels any other truck
and even Jeeps and Land Rovers
B. tows 5000lbs
C. is rated #1 for reliability
D. has excellent resale value
3. I never knew a truck could be "testosterone
deficient." Oh well, it was a humorous
attempt to add a little personification to
your incoherent babble of an essay.
4. I still think it's funny Toyota drum brakes
perform better than Chevy disk brakes. But
hey, go Chevy, right?
5. I notice you're a "big" truck owner who likes
to keep using the words "testosterone
deficient" and "impress." I think the
translation for this is self evident...
But it is a new rear differential from Torsen, not cast by Ford, correct?
I think we're posting the same crap for the purpose of posting... I.E. If you say it over and over again, your trying to convince others you are smart.
In the Ranger vs Tacoma thread, the Tacoma owners have stated over and over that sales mean nothing. Yet here we see Toyota owners arguing over it. But it looks like a statistic only means nothing, if it doesn't support your argument.
In the Ranger vs. Taco forum, teh point was: number of sales doesnt mean a thing. How those sales grow does. I wrote that in more than one message.
Notice how you only believe what is beneficial to your own argument?
Yeah Ford should have tested that rear differential more, but it did fail, under "high stress" events, per the Torsen representative. You can easily substitute "Abuse" for "High Stress". They were all recalled because it's still a liability. And since America produces 10 lawyers for every 1 engineer, what do you expect?
Just buy what you love, and love what you drive. Peace.
Bama maybe you know of someone, but I'm yet to find a Toyota truck owner who's had to have Toyota buyback their truck or replace it. Yet if you look in the GM threads, it seems every other day theres some poor soul who is suffering from the GM lemon tree. Even funnier, some of the guys using the Lemonundra term, are driving recognized GM lemons themselves lol. Makes absolutely no sense.
Plutonious brings up some good points regarding comparing Tundras 4.7L to Chevys 5.3L as well as other higher rated HP engines. Seems like when Tundra is FAIRLY compared straight across the board, it pulls its weight just fine. So i'm still trying to figure out what the GM guys want when they say they want a "big truck". I think theres valid concern for lack of room in Tundras rearseat area. You give Tundra more room in back, and now it seems very close if not the same as all other trucks in its class. Yet people will still say they want a bigger truck.
I personally think that with Tundra growing in popularity and GM continuing to produce their idea of quality stuff, that Toyota will in time be a major factor in full size truck market. I think this bothers the Chev/GM folks, but they'd never admit it. All said, Toyota still does not have something to compete with the F-350s or Chevs. 8.1L, or any of the other monsters. Maybe in time, we'll see.
Lastly, with regards to sales figures. Comparing the Tundra to Avalanche is more than unfair. The Avalanche to best of my knowledge was first of its kind to come out with truck/SUV capability. So anyone attracted by this design, would be forced to buy the Chevy produced Avalanche. Not so much because its Chevy, but because it was a new design and Chev. was only one to offer it. Therefore attracting Toyota, Ford, Nissan etc. loyalists. If it was just a truck comparable to Tundra, then maybe the figures would have some bearing.
Bottom line is that GM will continue to offer the finest tree ripened lemons available. To seal the deal, they come up with all sorts of feel good commercials. You GM guys know the kind ... The cowboys all dirty and out on the farm throwin hay in his American truck. They convince you that theres no tougher truck around, you guys get excited and cant wait to take your place under the lemon tree. Then a few months later you'll post to Edmunds wondering if anyone else is having same engine knocking, tranny noises, shaking cabin accesories etc etc. GM gets my award for pulling the wool over its intelligent consumers, time and time again. Hey after all, the figures prove it.
Bottom line is that GM will continue to offer the finest tree ripened lemons available. To seal the deal, they come up with all sorts of feel good commercials. You GM guys know the kind ... The cowboys all dirty and out on the farm throwin hay in his American truck. They convince you that theres no tougher truck around, you guys get excited and cant wait to take your place under the lemon tree. Then a few months later you'll post to Edmunds wondering if anyone else is having same engine knocking, tranny noises, shaking cabin accesories etc etc. GM gets my award for pulling the wool over its intelligent consumers, time and time again. Hey after all, the figures prove it.<
I'm sad to see you've only become more clueless. The Avalanche isn't the only SUV/PU hybrid. Not even the first. The Ford Sport Trac was out before. You just can't accept a GM success story! LOL!
Avalanche IS outselling the Tundra. Why? Rough Cowboys all dirty and out on the farm? Or Urban Cowboys on Rodeo Blvd?
What really makes this sales thing so laughable, is you toymota lovers have been saying since before the T100, "just wait!" Then you point to modest growth rates that would have toymota about even with current GM trucks....in about 50 years. "Oh what a feeling...everybody wants a Toyota." Then along comes Avalanche, instant hit, selling faster than Tundra. 'Nuff said!
Change for a dollar? Hehe!
I think Toyota is gaining market share and with the addition of ANY options will do better.I'm not a brand loyalist.I buy what ever will do what I need the best and hope it's good enough to last a few years.I knew GM had problems with interiors but if I knew about engine knock I would have bought a Ford.When Toyota DOES introduce a real full sized truck,and I'm sure they will,I intend to give them a fair chance to sell me one.
kip
Here are numbers to separate fact from opinion:
http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/otf0999.html
Eagle63....The six cylinder in the Taco is ok with the standard tranny....marginal with the auto, in my opinion.
Tom
Check it out
http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svolpu.asp
This is from the Automotive Information Center. The numbers have source. Those that you cite do not have a source. Pickuptruck.com is a forum and does not collect sales data, AIC does. Once again, where did pickuptruck.com get those numbers???
I know I'm gonna step on a few toes here but I gotta say.IMO NOBODY makes a half ton truck that can work anymore.That's why I'd like to see Toyota enter the full sized market.The more competition ,the harder they will ALL have to work for market share.
kip
It must be embarassing when passengers ask about the Hecho en Mexico (Made in Mexico) stickers all over the truck - and it must be a [non-permissible content removed] to translate owners manuals from Spanish.
Toyota ramped their production 12% Over last year while GM is offering $2000 rebates. Who do you think has more confidence in their product?
GM exec #1 - "We're losing money on every Av we sell.
GM exec #2 - "We'll make up for it in volume."
LMAO!
Tom
As opposed to what? Toyota used that creepy Tundra gnome last year in some of their Tundra ad campaigns LOL! Don't know if they're still using the little guy as the Tundra spokesperson this year!!
So lemmee see if I got this straight now:
Chevy=hard drivin' cowboys image
Toyota=wee folk with pointy red hats image
(this ad campaign was Toyota's idea...not mine, so don't shoot the messenger!)
This is similar to the story that was posted here about the Center For Auto Safety ranking the Tundra 26th in terms of problems. I did a search on their site and I could not find the the story.
You guys need to substantiate your info with a legitimate source.
you can't buy a new supra since they haven't built it for years now.
before the current 4.0 engine in ranger, it was a different 4.0, the 3.0 was standard. also, you talk as if the current 4.0 in ranger is new. it has been out since fall of '96. it is somewhat different in ranger, refined. ive had both versions: explorer and ranger. please sound smarter when you post your crap.
I call it as I see it, and as I've come to experience. My purpose isn't to ridicule GM truck owners, but to expose their trucks lack of quality. Its my opinion that Toyota makes the most RELIABLE truck. Is it the farm workhorse ... not exactly. Will it be in GMs lemon forest ... not remotely. I was also very aware of Ford's Sport-Trac. I never said Avalance was ONLY make of its kind, just not sure as to whether Sport-Trac was pre/post Avalanche.
KG11 ... Kip for being a GM owner, I find you to be one of the more open minded posters in these Toyota related threads. I agree with your above thoughts, and let me say that I wouldn't hesitate working a Chevy Rado on the farm. I feel its a very capable truck, sharp looking as well.
Just the history of American trucks vs. imports is so different. How many guys in here remember dad or grandpa out in the garage late at night working on his old 57 Toyota truck ... not many. You have a foreign truck trying to make ends meat in an traditional American market. There are families who swear by Fords or Chevy's solely based on tradition alone.
Toyota does not offer the Ford compliment of trucks from light duty to monsters. They have tons of room for growth. What they do offer is a truck that more times than not will remain reliable, smooth running, and usually structurally safe. If GM did that, they'd blow the top off the tent. The Sierra/Rado horror stories come nowhere close to Toyotas.
Hilly ... Ya i think the gnome is humorous myself. Certainly not a Ford / GM commercial, but then again Toyota has always been a little different. At least Toyota isn't misrepresenting their trucks and letting customers down.
I agree with Kip, and think that should Toyota decide to offer a "bigger truck", its definitely worth a look. Hey after all, when I get to Colorado, I wanna be the guy that sells Quad his brand new workhorse Tundra = ).
Pompino, I don't get your deutland motors comment. Chrysler is owned by a German firm and Toyota is a Japanese firm. The Tundra is assembled in Indiana with American workers- assembling parts that are largely Japanese.
Myself, I have no problem with the Tundra manufacturing (japanese/American). Nor do I have a problem with the truck itself or what it can do. My problem is what it is represented as. At least when Dodge split the lines with the Dakota, they didn't claim full size or compact size to make thier numbers look good.
The Legbuster Tundra might look better after that type of crash, but at least with the GM1500 you have a better chance of walking away from it. Here's the link-see for yourself:
http://www.highwaysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/summary_lgpickup.htm
And from this link:
http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/news/iihs_crash_results.html
"During the test the Silverado showed poor cab compression but, surprisingly, its combined score was saved by a lack of injuries to the dummies head, neck and chest."
"In NHTSA front impact tests, performed at 35-mph, the Toyota Tundra only scored three out of five stars for both passenger and driver protection."
Don't call me names, I just posted factual data.
Here's what they said regarding the Sierra/Silverado:
"A key aspect of protecting people in crashes is keeping the space around occupants intact,'' said Brian O'Neill, president of the institute...During the test the Silverado showed poor cab compression...When examined after the test, poor restraint of the dummy's head showed it drop below the window sill."
Maybe the reason the Tundra was rated higher than the GMC was because its cabin remained intact and the only POSSILBE injury was a leg injury. The GMC crumpled like styrofoam at 40mph (and accidents do occur over 40mph - I'd hate to see the results of THAT!!!) and I think given the choice, most of us would prefer a leg injury over a neck injury, LOL!
Funny how the IIHS rated the Tundra "Good" and the GMC "Marginal" but hill seems to think he knows more than the folks conducting the tests and somehow concluded the GMC is better...
Ndahi, you don't trust Pickuptruck.com to tell the truth on sales numbers, and you don't smell a rat here? LMAO!!!
I wonder how they faked the crash footage. Flaprunner also believes the lunar landing was staged. As bug's bunny would say: "What a maroon!"
Consumer Reports? Let's see -
'99, 00, 01 Shakerados - Consumer reports used vehicles to avoid
'99,00,01,02 Shakerado Consumer Reports predicted reliability - "Much worse than Average"
'99,'00,'01 J.D. Power ranks GM down in the gutter where there junk belongs.
'00,01 Tundras - Consumer Reports recommended used vehicles.
'00,'01,'02 Tundras - Consumer Reports recommended reliability "Better than average" The best rating of any 1/2 ton pickup.
'00, '01 Tundra - Winner of J.D. Power Award for best initial Quality.
Better use a different source - Flappy!