Robr2- In this country we have a tendency to pluralize.
Graph-- It was difficult to part with the TL after 5+ years, but all good things come to an end. The 5 so far is amazing in regards to creature comfort and driving dynamics, I use to knock the Germans but I am now slowly drifiting if I may say- an ardent fan.
You may know that my wife and I, after decades of German only, went with an Infiniti and an Acura (2011 and 2012 respectively). She kept her 39 month lease vehicle 35 months and I kept my 36 month lease TL SH- AWD Advance 25 months.
These cars, hers an FX and mine a TL were stickered at a combined $97K. The leases had to have been subvented by the mfgrs and the cars were reliable (and I assume durable) and well made with several obvious (and successful) attempts to move them upscale from their Nissan and Honda lineage. Perhaps for the right money -- and it would have to be seriously inexpensive -- a new TL, Q or IS (I actually ordered the Lexus IS-350AWD F-Sport) might have made it into our garage.
Since we test drive cars almost as a hobby, we were really -- this time -- able to see how far the Germans had come since our last German cars, hers a 2008 BMW, mine a 2009 Audi. The differences, now, at this point of inflection are, once again in favor of the Germans.
My wife puts it this way, "The Japanese cars are 'competent' appliances -- but they ain't got no soul." This from a person with one undergrad and two graduate level degrees (one of them a JD) who hates it when improper grammar is used.
The hell of it is, her description is perfect -- in tone, tenor and accuracy. The Germans, today at least, have indeed again found that certain something that can best be described as soul. And, the money (when leased) is no longer an excuse to 'settle' for the more or less soul-less vehicles currently marketed by the big-3 Japanese ELLPS and LPS providers.
Frankly, even the new Volvo products bear a good long look.
Our guess is the Japanese premium cars may offer higher durability scores, but even that seems not to be the case as my wife's SQ5 Prestige now is approaching 30K miles and still feels new. We'll see if this new car smell (so to speak) remains at 50K, but things look good.
Mark, we are looking at a SUV for Rick, and at the Phoenix Auto Show 2 weeks ago, it was nice to have all the SUV's in one room so to speak to take a look at them all. So far the BMW X3 and Audi Q5 are the two top contenders. At the Auto Show we looked at the MB GLA, GLK, and ML. The GL is just too big (this is Ricks words, not mine.) the GLA I was impressed with, but too small, the GLK was too small, the ML I found to be just right. What I found interesting with the ML was, the faux leather in it looked and felt real, and the contrasting stitching made the interior look more upper class. We test drove a ML250 with the new 2.1l diesel engine, I was not impressed at all with the engine, lots of turbo lag and the engine did not feel refined like the Audi or BMW. But the size was just right, slightly bigger then the Audi and BMW, but smaller then the X5 and Q7.
At the Auto show we looked at the Infiniti QX60 and was surprised on how there isn't much of a difference between the dash of the QX60 and Pathfinder, lots of Nissan switch gear in it, for almost 20K price difference between the two Nissan needs to not use parts bin parts (nissan) in the infiniti.
Mark....I think overall, the quality and competence of today's cars are so far removed (better) from where they were even 5 short years ago is a pretty big gulf.
I look at my former TL SH AWD and remember what the first one I drove of the current gen was like. Not sure what Acura did, but it was clear they had tweaked the suspension, updated to electronics, and numerous and sundry other things in the ensuing years up until the TLX came out. Most of what they did, you couldn't see. You could sure feel it in the way the car handled, the way it rode, the way it steered, the way the electronics responded, etc.
I have a CTS now. It iOS light years ahead of anything I've looked at recently....from the way it drives, the way it handles, the way it rides, the quality of materials, the careful assembly, the paint with lustrous, no orange peel effect, etc.
Over in the sales/purchase threads, there are lots of discussions about how much Mercedes has changed over the last 5 years. I know for a fact that the E92 BMW I had has been changed immeasurably (some say improved, some say not) vs the F3x versions.
Given your experience with the S4 vs my experience with the S4, it sounds like Audi quietly addressed their (what I considered major) issues.
The march of technology and performance in cars over the last few years is nothing short of breathtaking.
A car we often don't speak of in here is the Lexus IS. We all know the volume selling IS 250 AWD's acceleration numbers are lackluster and the IS 350's high 5s 0-60 times won't win you too many bragging rights on the Internet. The IS 350 F-Sport version has some positives going for it.
Power train - the 3.5L V6 has remained essentially unchanged since 2006 as has the 6-Speed Automatic still found in the AWD version. The RWD has an 8-Speed automatic (maybe it can't handle the AWD?). It is old school for sure, especially compared to the other 4cyl turbos in the class, but tried & true none the less.
Body - yes you can call the IS polarizing. It's grille even looks like The Predator. It's looks are very modern. The car does stand out in a crowd of ubiquitous 320s, 328s, C300s, & Audi A4s. I like the charcoal, split 5 Spoke wheels.
Adaptive Suspension - many of today's ELLPS are too soft in their base form and too harsh with their sport suspensions. The IS350 F Sport has an adaptive suspension that constantly monitors and adjusts each shock absorber.
Now back in 2006, I attended a Lexus test drive event and was able to drive an IS350 back to back with an E90 330i. Now the IS was MUCh faster (butt Dyno), but BMW took care of that in 2007 with the twin turbo 335i. I thought the BMW was a better driving car (brakes, steering, suspension). Things are different today. The BMW still puts up good numbers (328i & 335i), but they have also gotten softer and are much less engaging to drive. Maybe the playing field has evened out.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
A car we often don't speak of in here is the Lexus IS. We all know the volume selling IS 250 AWD's acceleration numbers are lackluster and the IS 350's high 5s 0-60 times won't win you too many bragging rights on the Internet. The IS 350 F-Sport version has some positives going for it.
Power train - the 3.5L V6 has remained essentially unchanged since 2006 as has the 6-Speed Automatic still found in the AWD version. The RWD has an 8-Speed automatic (maybe it can't handle the AWD?). It is old school for sure, especially compared to the other 4cyl turbos in the class, but tried & true none the less.
Body - yes you can call the IS polarizing. It's grille even looks like The Predator. It's looks are very modern. The car does stand out in a crowd of ubiquitous 320s, 328s, C300s, & Audi A4s. I like the charcoal, split 5 Spoke wheels.
Adaptive Suspension - many of today's ELLPS are too soft in their base form and too harsh with their sport suspensions. The IS350 F Sport has an adaptive suspension that constantly monitors and adjusts each shock absorber.
Now back in 2006, I attended a Lexus test drive event and was able to drive an IS350 back to back with an E90 330i. Now the IS was MUCh faster (butt Dyno), but BMW took care of that in 2007 with the twin turbo 335i. I thought the BMW was a better driving car (brakes, steering, suspension). Things are different today. The BMW still puts up good numbers (328i & 335i), but they have also gotten softer and are much less engaging to drive. Maybe the playing field has evened out.
The emphasis has shifted from driving dynamics to technology- either entertainment or electronic nannies. I guess that's understandable; 99% of buyers in this segment believe that "trailing throttle oversteer" is a band that used to open for Cheap Trick and think "contact patches" are used to help you quit smoking...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Roadburner -- you crack me up! Of course the Cheap Trick quip suggests you've been around the sun quite a few times (as have I).
Two of my friends (one is an aunt) acquired new ELLPS (1 Lexus and 1 Infiniti) cars. One of these folks (who will remain otherwise unidentified) was going from one city to another about 30 miles apart. The call to me proclaimed "the GPS lady gives incorrect instructions" -- and my friend ended up in a city some 60 miles in the wrong direction.
Now, I have had numerous GPS systems, my first in 2001. I have had the experience where the GPS lady did indeed provide incorrect directions (but I still arrived at my destination, just with a long detour). The last time I had a car provide wrong directions was in 2004.
The "science" of GPS technology and the map makers themselves have improved greatly is the point. Or perhaps the point is the GPS lady was not wrong -- and if you would have followed her directions you would not be 60 miles out of the way.
I said nothing to my friend.
I am thinking I will suggest a return visit to the dealership for a "training class" on the marvelous tech these Japanese cars afford. Of course, my other friend was unaware of the car's sat radio tuner and when I turned the radio to the sat band and found Classic Vinyl, my friend was amazed -- no commercials and tons of music.
Analogy: Maybe we've reached the point where CD's and iPods or iPhones (for music) are good enough and DVD-Audio despite its amazing quality, is just not worth it to most folks.
I remember, too, Sprint spent a ton of money on the sound quality of their network only to find people would rather have fewer dropouts than hi-fi sound from their cell phone network.
These cars have lots of tech, to be sure -- but other than the folks reading and writing here on Edmunds, I wonder who is actually using automatic cruise control, lane keeping, in-car Internet and even google earth (which is, at least, pretty cool to play with even if it is not really all that practical).
Have we reached some kind of saturation? Or are we all collectively waiting for "Jarvis" (in the Iron Man suit) to mature to the point where we don't have to learn anything to program our GPS other than to say "I wanna go to Austin and avoid the Interstates."
I'm back to wanting the performance of an S4 with the ride of an A8 -- that plus an upgraded sound system and I'd be fine. The current gen of GPS and the other tech is probably acceptable to folks like you and me, since we actually (apparently) take the time to learn to program it.
I'm clearly not waiting on Jarvis, but he can't get here soon enough.
I think some of the safety nannies fall in the category, "we had the sensors on the compute power. So, it was easy to do"....by the manufacturers.
I do like lane departure warning. Not so much the "Lane Keep" features. I have front end collision mitigation which I'll assume works, as I don't want to test it out.
GPS in cars is to the point where the ones I've used are extremely accurate. I expect that's a feature that will come with just about all cars in the not so distant future, given most have a "cutout" that was engineered in the dash for some sort of screen.
At some point I'm waiting to hear of the drunk guy who was pulled over for crossing a yellow line and got a DUI. His defense will be "no way...I had lane keep feature on my car. There's no way that's possible." Maybe RB can comment on the legalities of such a scenario.
It amazes me how far suspension technology has come. I now own a CTS with Magnetic Ride Control. It's pretty darn amazing. Aside from the car having nearly ideal weight distribution and weight reduction, the MRC keeps the wheels planted while the body stays tight, and the ride is superb.....kind of what you were talking about with an A8.
About DVD-As....I have a bunch of them. They are amazing sounding. Used to love listening to them in the car. No longer. I don't know of any cars that can play them in all their surround sound glory anymore.
So, I play them at home (where they sound even better). But, no one in my family just sits to listen to music any more. It's always a "background" activity.
I was recently browsing local inventory of BMW and Benz dealers. One thing jumped on me - new C-class is in stock in good number - NOT A SINGLE unit with leather seat in multiple dealerships. Even upscale C400. All have MB-Tex. BMW on the other hand - majority of 328 and up has premium package, which is leather. I really don't get it, especially that C-class is supposed to go "upmarket" as CLA filled the entry point. There are units there well in $50K+ and still no leather. I don't know - is that plastic MB-Tex so good? I just find it hard to believe... Not to mention that not a single one?
In my experience the MB-Tex is so good that the only major difference to me is that the leather is more aromatic. Tex may be actually more durable but I have no anecdotal or other proof of this.
The MB-Tex will eventually crack -- not the kind of cracks you can see in old leather, however.
The PLEATHER seats unlike real leather doesn't or can't breathe. Of course with modern seat ventilation technology, that may be less of an issue.
I'm still of the "leather is better" opinion -- but I remember ONE TIME ordering a new Audi 5000CS turbo quattro with wool seats (leather was standard and wool was a special order at no cost option). These seats, in many ways, were the most comfortable ever. Not cold in winter, not hot in summer (mine were heated, too).
The issue, with gray seats, was dirt. Well, OK, not "dirt dirt" but coffee, mustard, coke and other drinks, ice cream droppings and, I would imagine all sorts of other messes should one have kids in the car. A good old french fry stain would be a heart breaker.
Now, I did put sheepskin seat covers on the front buckets -- and that helped. But as good as the wool seats were, I was one and done.
I have no doubt MB-Tex is good fake leather, or faux leather -- but give me the real thing.
I think some of the safety nannies fall in the category, "we had the sensors on the compute power. So, it was easy to do"....by the manufacturers.
I do like lane departure warning. Not so much the "Lane Keep" features. I have front end collision mitigation which I'll assume works, as I don't want to test it out.
GPS in cars is to the point where the ones I've used are extremely accurate. I expect that's a feature that will come with just about all cars in the not so distant future, given most have a "cutout" that was engineered in the dash for some sort of screen.
At some point I'm waiting to hear of the drunk guy who was pulled over for crossing a yellow line and got a DUI. His defense will be "no way...I had lane keep feature on my car. There's no way that's possible." Maybe RB can comment on the legalities of such a scenario.
It amazes me how far suspension technology has come. I now own a CTS with Magnetic Ride Control. It's pretty darn amazing. Aside from the car having nearly ideal weight distribution and weight reduction, the MRC keeps the wheels planted while the body stays tight, and the ride is superb.....kind of what you were talking about with an A8.
About DVD-As....I have a bunch of them. They are amazing sounding. Used to love listening to them in the car. No longer. I don't know of any cars that can play them in all their surround sound glory anymore.
So, I play them at home (where they sound even better). But, no one in my family just sits to listen to music any more. It's always a "background" activity.
I'm not against quality in-car audio systems or decent navigation systems. My issue is that today's buyers are usually distracted by the "shiny things" that are tangential at best to the overall driving experience.
As for crossing the center line and the lane keep feature? It would depend on the individual case, and the competence of the judge and counsel. Me, I'd probably let the defendant argue that- assuming he could prove his car had that feature.
As an aside, the judiciary has one of the highest automotive illiteracy rates of virtually any profession. A couple of judges in my district would take voluminous notes if they were hearing a case involving vehicle repairs, etc., take the case under submission, and give the notes to me so that I could sift the wheat from the chaff...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
In my experience the MB-Tex is so good that the only major difference to me is that the leather is more aromatic. Tex may be actually more durable but I have no anecdotal or other proof of this.
That's also been my experience with BMW's "Leatherette." The only reason I would choose leather is because I wanted a color that was only available in cowhide. My BMW salesperson told me that people will bring in a BMW(that they bought used) and will not believe the car has vinyl seats until he runs the VIN and pulls the car's build sheet.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I have a CTS now. It iOS light years ahead of anything I've looked at recently....from the way it drives, the way it handles, the way it rides, the quality of materials, the careful assembly, the paint with lustrous, no orange peel effect, etc. .
WOW, I thought you weren't going to ever step into a Caddy dealer? What made you change your mind?
I have leatherette in my 2005 Passat. It has worn like iron and does not show any signs of wear or cracking. Given a choice, I would take leatherette over leather every time.
And speaking of vinyl, while I do not belong to the "LPs are superior, CDs are garbage" cult, I dug out the AR-XA turntable I bought from my uncle(for $75!) and set it up in the basement HTS. Now to buy a Shure M97xE cartridge and a few accessories...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
And speaking of vinyl, while I do not belong to the "LPs are superior, CDs are garbage" cult, I dug out the AR-XA turntable I bought from my uncle(for $75!) and set it up in the basement HTS. Now to buy a Shure M97xE cartridge and a few accessories...
Heh... I went down that road in 2007. I had all these crates full of vinyl records I had bought from the mid-70s until I finally bought a CD player in the early '90s that were just gathering dust. My old turntable had issues and wasn't easily repairable. And my receiver had a bad channel. So I went the retro route, first locally-sourcing stuff, later going the ebay route. I ended up with several turntables, several old 1970s Pioneer receivers, a few cassette decks, new old speakers, totally retro. That lasted not quite a year before I lost interest. Yes, it sounds good, but I seem to have lost that desire for the one true sound that I once had. Now it is all gathering dust again.
So it seems that Acura is having issues with the TLX...
FN....it's a long story. Reader's Digest version, I got a deal I couldn't pass up. Had a couple of hiccups, but they seem to be sorting themselves out. Cadillac is really stepping it up. CTS has turned into something I never would have expected. They're shooting at E class, 5 Series, and A6, and bulls eyeing the targets, in some ways, exceeding what the others are doing.
Test drove the ATS a couple of times. That car's a blast, too. You'd like it.
Leather....I've heard the argument that Mercedes "pleather" is better than leather. That mostly came from their dealers. However their fake stuff may or may not wear well, I'm sure it's cheaper for them than putting leather in their cars.
Even old leather looks great. Not sure that old vinyl will look all that good down the road. I know old vinyl never smells good. To me, it's a cost cutting move by Mercedes. I can't imagine paying $50K? $60K? Maybe more, and not getting leather as part of the package.
If I were going to see any potential problem with the new TLX, it would have been with their transmissions. Acura/Honda has had a bit of a history with dicey transmissions. I really like the TLX. I hope they get that shift button thing sorted out in short fashion, and it will only take once. They are kind of on a sales roll with their vehicles right now. It would be a shame that this would bring them to a halt. If they've stopped selling the TLX, it looks like that's exactly what happened, though. I can't imagine how long it will take for then to identify the cause, come up with a fix, and get all those cars in the shops to make the fix. Hope it works out well for them.
Thanks for the professional opinion RB. I'm waiting to hear that defense in a DUI case sooner rather than later.
I'm with Graphic on leather. I drove several loaners with the "ette" and they did not feel that great. Rough touch, dull color and of course smell. All the "tex", "ette" stuff is to me selling a simple fake for a price of real stuff (50 grand or more) and great legend so they can cash the profit - and charging extra if you insist on real stuff. Well, they obviously can get away with that. Especially Benz. I see BMWs have much higher percentage of real leather, but new 320 may buck the trend.
If not leather, I would rather choose premium microfiber seats (if they made), just like for a couch, as those at least would be better in hot-and-cold sweat absorption, be nicer in touch and even stronger than leather. And it doesn't pretend to be something else.
While at the MB dealer we test drove a ML250 that had the fake stuff, at first I didn't know it was fake, it felt like leather, and the contrasting stitching really elevated the whole look.
CG, I'm still not sold on the new CTS, having driving one a couple of months back over 600 miles I just couldn't get comfortable in it. I'm just surprised how you made a 180 turn around and even went and drove one.
While at the MB dealer we test drove a ML250 that had the fake stuff, at first I didn't know it was fake, it felt like leather, and the contrasting stitching really elevated the whole look.
CG, I'm still not sold on the new CTS, having driving one a couple of months back over 600 miles I just couldn't get comfortable in it. I'm just surprised how you made a 180 turn around and even went and drove one.
FN...no issues. Lots pf vehicles competing in this space (E series, 5 Series, A6, ets). Someone will find what they're looking for.
Man-I am loving this 5 series-this is really a nice car- I hope I don't sound too carried away. The Dark Graphite color really does justice to the Zaino Products, even the pipes are Zainoed. Whooopeee!!!!
Happy holidays- good to see the world of Ellps continues to drive on. The mentions of the IS250 and caddy cts - cads not talked of . I think the Lexi is an interesting looking car but as mentioned the drivetrain and cost for me it's a non-starter. The cts was car of the year - but poor gm they can't get out of own way when it comes to bad headlines. Caddy has a good car here but I would never own one (maybe lease) do to poorer resale values, some of which is due to continued recalls. This article from a website flight knows well says it all. Nice car - bad parent/strategy . - http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/12/07/why-general-motors-stuck-with-high-cadillac-prices.aspx
Well, I just leased a 2014 ATS 2.0T AWD and am really impressed. It is an incredible car to drive and I love the looks. Got a great year-end deal. Happy.
was at the mall today (what kind of idiot goes to the cherry hill mall at 4:30 on a Saturday just before Christmas? Oh yeah, me. And a ton of other fools!). They had a couple of cars parked in there. One was a Q50 (white). Not bad looking. The other was a black Acura TLX. a V6 FWD tech. MSRP $40,150. Sharp looking car with the espresso leather. Still seems kind of pricey to me, but pretty well loaded. Though if I was spending that much and getting the HP, would probably want the AWD to better manage it.
but for that money, you can get a lot of nice iron. Especially if you don't mind slightly used CPO.
Also, was reading one of my car magazines, and they had a long term wrap up on their ATS with the 2.0 motor. overall really liked it. small back seat, but you have to know that going in! a few nits I believe (cue?), but dynamically sounded really nice (power/handling/MPG).
quite the depreciation though. IIRC, 47K sticker (def. over 40) and 3 year residual in the 18s. Ouch.
also, for all the traction worriers, they had the RWD version. In Michigan. And said it had no problem at all in snow and ice. Yes, it had winter tires, proving again it really is about the treads not how many wheels are driven!
quite the depreciation though. IIRC, 47K sticker (def. over 40) and 3 year residual in the 18s. Ouch.
also, for all the traction worriers, they had the RWD version. In Michigan. And said it had no problem at all in snow and ice. Yes, it had winter tires, proving again it really is about the treads not how many wheels are driven!
I don't think any one will say the ATS isn't a good car, but for it to compete against cars that are bigger i.e 3 series and A4 and now the new C class GM needed to think ahead, that they didn't..
I'm glad that the Mag didn't get a AWD car, again shows that AWD isn't needed these days if one has good snow tires..
Flight- I was in that bucket (new only) until I bought this CPO 535- only 28k miles. So far no regrets.
Bill, for people who lease, a CPO will not work, those who do not lease, a CPO is a great way to get into a luxury car without selling off their oldest child.
I can see going CPO if you've got cash in hand, or put a large chunk down and get some cheapo financing for maybe 2 years if you don't drive all that much.
Whatever I buy, I have to make payments on with as little out of pocket as possible. So (and this only pertains to me) even if that CPO car is a smoking deal compared to an identical brand new one, I'm still going to have to make loan payments, pay for maintenance, and pay for out of warranty repairs. I drive 20,000 plus miles per year. Yes depreciation is the most expensive cost of ownership, but right now I'm not equipped financially to make payments plus, plus.
I'm glad you are enjoying your 5er.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I drive 8k a year and could of bought a new s4- but went slightly used, saved 10k or more, have full warranty, and know if I want to sell it I won't take a bath, paid cash plus trade- would do it again. First year depreshiayion is a [non-permissible content removed].
There's no right or wrong answer to the question either. I've only owned or leased new cars since I got my license (except for a used 1990 BMW 325i Coupe I bought for $950). I am open to CPO cars especially in this segment for a future purchase. Our Pilot is about a year & a half away from being paid off. I know my wife drives it because we have 3 kids and need a big, family, truckster. We could keep the Pilot around for kid hauling, car pooling, & vacation duty and pick up a CPO ELLPS for her to drive. I'd look at an IS350, previous body style C300 4Matic, heavily depreciated CTS or ATS...
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
My wife's last two cars(her current E90 and the E83 passed down to RB Jr.) were CPOs, but I doubt that either of us will be buying another BMW; while their reliability has been excellent, driving excitement has gone MIA in the Fxx cars/trucks...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
There are so many complex systems in today's Luxury and near-lux cars that it might be worthwhile to offer how-to seminars. A buddy of mine bought a new E350 and clearly hadn't had the time to learn most of the systems.
I told him if he'd lend me the car for a couple of days I'd learn the features and give him a quickie lesson. He didn't go for it.
I had an 06 IS350. When I purchased it it was 2 years old...but quickly turned 3 a few months later.
Even though I had the CPO warranty I had a few items that fell outside of that coverage (which was annoying).
The biggest problem I had was after year 3 of the payments I was (still) making payments for a 5-6 year old car. So when you're nearing 5 years of payments you're paying for an 8-9 year old car. I knew all this going in...but didn't think I'd have an issue making payments on an "old" car. It held up fairly well, but there were still wear and tear issues that revealed themselves when it was 6 years old (tiny chunks of the dash crumbling off, suspension creaks, few rattles, etc.).
To make matters worse, you're paying a premium for the CPO; mine was at least $2k over a comparable model (and mileage). So if you're attempting to sell early you're at a disadvantage.
Plus...when I traded it in (at another dealer) it was revealed that at some point before I purchased it there was a claim for hail damage; so this reduced it's trade in value. My fault here...I assumed CPO vehicles never had been in accidents/claims, etc; doesn't cost much to do a quick search...
For me, I think I would have been better off just purchasing a used vehicle...or a new vehicle in a "lower" class since I like "new".
No lower class for me- always looking to upgrade. I am not advocating for CPO-just for me, its the prudent thing to do. The 535 I have now was listed for 65K in 2011- no way I am going to lay that kind of money out.
I think some are missing my point, I'm sure Mark leases his car's for tax breaks, so buying a CPO wouldn't work for him. Buying a CPO can be a smart choice for some, just like buying new is a smart choice for others. Rick at one time was looking at a Lexus LS460 but the original sticker was over the top, even though the car residual for very high, the payments were higher then what he was willing to pay, so he was looking at a CPO LS 460. But he came to his senses and moved on... BTW, leases residuals for Lexus's are out of this world, RX is 67%, LS 66%..
I think some are missing my point, I'm sure Mark leases his car's for tax breaks, so buying a CPO wouldn't work for him. Buying a CPO can be a smart choice for some, just like buying new is a smart choice for others. Rick at one time was looking at a Lexus LS460 but the original sticker was over the top, even though the car residual for very high, the payments were higher then what he was willing to pay, so he was looking at a CPO LS 460. But he came to his senses and moved on... BTW, leases residuals for Lexus's are out of this world, RX is 67%, LS 66%..
Same for the IS350 - residuals are nuts!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I had an 06 IS350. When I purchased it it was 2 years old...but quickly turned 3 a few months later.
Even though I had the CPO warranty I had a few items that fell outside of that coverage (which was annoying).
The biggest problem I had was after year 3 of the payments I was (still) making payments for a 5-6 year old car. So when you're nearing 5 years of payments you're paying for an 8-9 year old car. I knew all this going in...but didn't think I'd have an issue making payments on an "old" car. It held up fairly well, but there were still wear and tear issues that revealed themselves when it was 6 years old (tiny chunks of the dash crumbling off, suspension creaks, few rattles, etc.).
To make matters worse, you're paying a premium for the CPO; mine was at least $2k over a comparable model (and mileage). So if you're attempting to sell early you're at a disadvantage.
Plus...when I traded it in (at another dealer) it was revealed that at some point before I purchased it there was a claim for hail damage; so this reduced it's trade in value. My fault here...I assumed CPO vehicles never had been in accidents/claims, etc; doesn't cost much to do a quick search...
For me, I think I would have been better off just purchasing a used vehicle...or a new vehicle in a "lower" class since I like "new".
You and I are in the same boat. I don't want to be making payments on a car that's more than 5 years old plus pay for maintenance & out of warranty repairs.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Comments
Another is any ad that uses the term "original miles". I don't know what unoriginal miles are.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
These cars, hers an FX and mine a TL were stickered at a combined $97K. The leases had to have been subvented by the mfgrs and the cars were reliable (and I assume durable) and well made with several obvious (and successful) attempts to move them upscale from their Nissan and Honda lineage. Perhaps for the right money -- and it would have to be seriously inexpensive -- a new TL, Q or IS (I actually ordered the Lexus IS-350AWD F-Sport) might have made it into our garage.
Since we test drive cars almost as a hobby, we were really -- this time -- able to see how far the Germans had come since our last German cars, hers a 2008 BMW, mine a 2009 Audi. The differences, now, at this point of inflection are, once again in favor of the Germans.
My wife puts it this way, "The Japanese cars are 'competent' appliances -- but they ain't got no soul." This from a person with one undergrad and two graduate level degrees (one of them a JD) who hates it when improper grammar is used.
The hell of it is, her description is perfect -- in tone, tenor and accuracy. The Germans, today at least, have indeed again found that certain something that can best be described as soul. And, the money (when leased) is no longer an excuse to 'settle' for the more or less soul-less vehicles currently marketed by the big-3 Japanese ELLPS and LPS providers.
Frankly, even the new Volvo products bear a good long look.
Our guess is the Japanese premium cars may offer higher durability scores, but even that seems not to be the case as my wife's SQ5 Prestige now is approaching 30K miles and still feels new. We'll see if this new car smell (so to speak) remains at 50K, but things look good.
At the Auto show we looked at the Infiniti QX60 and was surprised on how there isn't much of a difference between the dash of the QX60 and Pathfinder, lots of Nissan switch gear in it, for almost 20K price difference between the two Nissan needs to not use parts bin parts (nissan) in the infiniti.
I look at my former TL SH AWD and remember what the first one I drove of the current gen was like. Not sure what Acura did, but it was clear they had tweaked the suspension, updated to electronics, and numerous and sundry other things in the ensuing years up until the TLX came out. Most of what they did, you couldn't see. You could sure feel it in the way the car handled, the way it rode, the way it steered, the way the electronics responded, etc.
I have a CTS now. It iOS light years ahead of anything I've looked at recently....from the way it drives, the way it handles, the way it rides, the quality of materials, the careful assembly, the paint with lustrous, no orange peel effect, etc.
Over in the sales/purchase threads, there are lots of discussions about how much Mercedes has changed over the last 5 years. I know for a fact that the E92 BMW I had has been changed immeasurably (some say improved, some say not) vs the F3x versions.
Given your experience with the S4 vs my experience with the S4, it sounds like Audi quietly addressed their (what I considered major) issues.
The march of technology and performance in cars over the last few years is nothing short of breathtaking.
Power train - the 3.5L V6 has remained essentially unchanged since 2006 as has the 6-Speed Automatic still found in the AWD version. The RWD has an 8-Speed automatic (maybe it can't handle the AWD?). It is old school for sure, especially compared to the other 4cyl turbos in the class, but tried & true none the less.
Body - yes you can call the IS polarizing. It's grille even looks like The Predator. It's looks are very modern. The car does stand out in a crowd of ubiquitous 320s, 328s, C300s, & Audi A4s. I like the charcoal, split 5 Spoke wheels.
Adaptive Suspension - many of today's ELLPS are too soft in their base form and too harsh with their sport suspensions. The IS350 F Sport has an adaptive suspension that constantly monitors and adjusts each shock absorber.
Now back in 2006, I attended a Lexus test drive event and was able to drive an IS350 back to back with an E90 330i. Now the IS was MUCh faster (butt Dyno), but BMW took care of that in 2007 with the twin turbo 335i. I thought the BMW was a better driving car (brakes, steering, suspension). Things are different today. The BMW still puts up good numbers (328i & 335i), but they have also gotten softer and are much less engaging to drive. Maybe the playing field has evened out.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Two of my friends (one is an aunt) acquired new ELLPS (1 Lexus and 1 Infiniti) cars. One of these folks (who will remain otherwise unidentified) was going from one city to another about 30 miles apart. The call to me proclaimed "the GPS lady gives incorrect instructions" -- and my friend ended up in a city some 60 miles in the wrong direction.
Now, I have had numerous GPS systems, my first in 2001. I have had the experience where the GPS lady did indeed provide incorrect directions (but I still arrived at my destination, just with a long detour). The last time I had a car provide wrong directions was in 2004.
The "science" of GPS technology and the map makers themselves have improved greatly is the point. Or perhaps the point is the GPS lady was not wrong -- and if you would have followed her directions you would not be 60 miles out of the way.
I said nothing to my friend.
I am thinking I will suggest a return visit to the dealership for a "training class" on the marvelous tech these Japanese cars afford. Of course, my other friend was unaware of the car's sat radio tuner and when I turned the radio to the sat band and found Classic Vinyl, my friend was amazed -- no commercials and tons of music.
Analogy: Maybe we've reached the point where CD's and iPods or iPhones (for music) are good enough and DVD-Audio despite its amazing quality, is just not worth it to most folks.
I remember, too, Sprint spent a ton of money on the sound quality of their network only to find people would rather have fewer dropouts than hi-fi sound from their cell phone network.
These cars have lots of tech, to be sure -- but other than the folks reading and writing here on Edmunds, I wonder who is actually using automatic cruise control, lane keeping, in-car Internet and even google earth (which is, at least, pretty cool to play with even if it is not really all that practical).
Have we reached some kind of saturation? Or are we all collectively waiting for "Jarvis" (in the Iron Man suit) to mature to the point where we don't have to learn anything to program our GPS other than to say "I wanna go to Austin and avoid the Interstates."
I'm back to wanting the performance of an S4 with the ride of an A8 -- that plus an upgraded sound system and I'd be fine. The current gen of GPS and the other tech is probably acceptable to folks like you and me, since we actually (apparently) take the time to learn to program it.
I'm clearly not waiting on Jarvis, but he can't get here soon enough.
I think some of the safety nannies fall in the category, "we had the sensors on the compute power. So, it was easy to do"....by the manufacturers.
I do like lane departure warning. Not so much the "Lane Keep" features. I have front end collision mitigation which I'll assume works, as I don't want to test it out.
GPS in cars is to the point where the ones I've used are extremely accurate. I expect that's a feature that will come with just about all cars in the not so distant future, given most have a "cutout" that was engineered in the dash for some sort of screen.
At some point I'm waiting to hear of the drunk guy who was pulled over for crossing a yellow line and got a DUI. His defense will be "no way...I had lane keep feature on my car. There's no way that's possible." Maybe RB can comment on the legalities of such a scenario.
It amazes me how far suspension technology has come. I now own a CTS with Magnetic Ride Control. It's pretty darn amazing. Aside from the car having nearly ideal weight distribution and weight reduction, the MRC keeps the wheels planted while the body stays tight, and the ride is superb.....kind of what you were talking about with an A8.
About DVD-As....I have a bunch of them. They are amazing sounding. Used to love listening to them in the car. No longer. I don't know of any cars that can play them in all their surround sound glory anymore.
So, I play them at home (where they sound even better). But, no one in my family just sits to listen to music any more. It's always a "background" activity.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The PLEATHER seats unlike real leather doesn't or can't breathe. Of course with modern seat ventilation technology, that may be less of an issue.
I'm still of the "leather is better" opinion -- but I remember ONE TIME ordering a new Audi 5000CS turbo quattro with wool seats (leather was standard and wool was a special order at no cost option). These seats, in many ways, were the most comfortable ever. Not cold in winter, not hot in summer (mine were heated, too).
The issue, with gray seats, was dirt. Well, OK, not "dirt dirt" but coffee, mustard, coke and other drinks, ice cream droppings and, I would imagine all sorts of other messes should one have kids in the car. A good old french fry stain would be a heart breaker.
Now, I did put sheepskin seat covers on the front buckets -- and that helped. But as good as the wool seats were, I was one and done.
I have no doubt MB-Tex is good fake leather, or faux leather -- but give me the real thing.
As for crossing the center line and the lane keep feature? It would depend on the individual case, and the competence of the judge and counsel. Me, I'd probably let the defendant argue that- assuming he could prove his car had that feature.
As an aside, the judiciary has one of the highest automotive illiteracy rates of virtually any profession. A couple of judges in my district would take voluminous notes if they were hearing a case involving vehicle repairs, etc., take the case under submission, and give the notes to me so that I could sift the wheat from the chaff...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Test drove the ATS a couple of times. That car's a blast, too. You'd like it.
Leather....I've heard the argument that Mercedes "pleather" is better than leather. That mostly came from their dealers. However their fake stuff may or may not wear well, I'm sure it's cheaper for them than putting leather in their cars.
Even old leather looks great. Not sure that old vinyl will look all that good down the road. I know old vinyl never smells good. To me, it's a cost cutting move by Mercedes. I can't imagine paying $50K? $60K? Maybe more, and not getting leather as part of the package.
If I were going to see any potential problem with the new TLX, it would have been with their transmissions. Acura/Honda has had a bit of a history with dicey transmissions. I really like the TLX. I hope they get that shift button thing sorted out in short fashion, and it will only take once. They are kind of on a sales roll with their vehicles right now. It would be a shame that this would bring them to a halt. If they've stopped selling the TLX, it looks like that's exactly what happened, though. I can't imagine how long it will take for then to identify the cause, come up with a fix, and get all those cars in the shops to make the fix. Hope it works out well for them.
Thanks for the professional opinion RB. I'm waiting to hear that defense in a DUI case sooner rather than later.
If not leather, I would rather choose premium microfiber seats (if they made), just like for a couch, as those at least would be better in hot-and-cold sweat absorption, be nicer in touch and even stronger than leather. And it doesn't pretend to be something else.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
CG, I'm still not sold on the new CTS, having driving one a couple of months back over 600 miles I just couldn't get comfortable in it. I'm just surprised how you made a 180 turn around and even went and drove one.
Check out the 1970 Dodge Challenger commercial its a classic.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
The Dark Graphite color really does justice to the Zaino Products, even the pipes are Zainoed.
Whooopeee!!!!
well says it all. Nice car - bad parent/strategy .
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http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/12/07/why-general-motors-stuck-with-high-cadillac-prices.aspx
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
but for that money, you can get a lot of nice iron. Especially if you don't mind slightly used CPO.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
quite the depreciation though. IIRC, 47K sticker (def. over 40) and 3 year residual in the 18s. Ouch.
also, for all the traction worriers, they had the RWD version. In Michigan. And said it had no problem at all in snow and ice. Yes, it had winter tires, proving again it really is about the treads not how many wheels are driven!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I'm glad that the Mag didn't get a AWD car, again shows that AWD isn't needed these days if one has good snow tires..
Why can't you compare?
So far no regrets.
Whatever I buy, I have to make payments on with as little out of pocket as possible. So (and this only pertains to me) even if that CPO car is a smoking deal compared to an identical brand new one, I'm still going to have to make loan payments, pay for maintenance, and pay for out of warranty repairs. I drive 20,000 plus miles per year. Yes depreciation is the most expensive cost of ownership, but right now I'm not equipped financially to make payments plus, plus.
I'm glad you are enjoying your 5er.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
- Taking out the 5 tonight- YIIIKES!!!!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
"Female dog"
http://www.edmunds.com/audi/s4/2013/tco.html
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I told him if he'd lend me the car for a couple of days I'd learn the features and give him a quickie lesson. He didn't go for it.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I had an 06 IS350. When I purchased it it was 2 years old...but quickly turned 3 a few months later.
Even though I had the CPO warranty I had a few items that fell outside of that coverage (which was annoying).
The biggest problem I had was after year 3 of the payments I was (still) making payments for a 5-6 year old car. So when you're nearing 5 years of payments you're paying for an 8-9 year old car. I knew all this going in...but didn't think I'd have an issue making payments on an "old" car. It held up fairly well, but there were still wear and tear issues that revealed themselves when it was 6 years old (tiny chunks of the dash crumbling off, suspension creaks, few rattles, etc.).
To make matters worse, you're paying a premium for the CPO; mine was at least $2k over a comparable model (and mileage). So if you're attempting to sell early you're at a disadvantage.
Plus...when I traded it in (at another dealer) it was revealed that at some point before I purchased it there was a claim for hail damage; so this reduced it's trade in value. My fault here...I assumed CPO vehicles never had been in accidents/claims, etc; doesn't cost much to do a quick search...
For me, I think I would have been better off just purchasing a used vehicle...or a new vehicle in a "lower" class since I like "new".
I am not advocating for CPO-just for me, its the prudent thing to do.
The 535 I have now was listed for 65K in 2011- no way I am going to lay that kind of money out.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD