Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

markcincinnati

S4 M3

Much as I love my S4, the M3 and S4 aren't in the same class -- Audi's S4 is the competitor to the BMW 335 (and to be fully comparative, the BMW would have to be an X-drive version.)

There is no RS4 (US) available which would be the M3's competitor.

I believe the S4 used to be the M3 rival, but once "RS's" were introduced the "S" moved a step down the performance ladder.

The net of this is to clarify that the S4 is still in the ELLPS category, no matter how much it can be optioned to (well over $60K in a New York second).

For the record, I wouldn't kick a 335 out of bed for eating crackers -- hell, I'd even bring the crackers.

Perhaps I lucked out with my S4 -- based on the way I equipped it; it seems the "distance" between an all singing, all dancing, S-Line A4 and an S4 is remarkably short. If you're looking at an A4 with a bunch of options, the S4 with not so many options, is just a smidge more (on a lease) than the "lesser" 4.

My wife's SQ5, Prestige, too, was "within reach" of a Q5 3.0T -- and, like the A4 S4 comparison, the "S" cars are remarkable, almost thrilling, performers.

The top of the line versions of most of the ELLPS cars are -- almost universally -- great performers available for something far less than a King's ransom. And, what you end up with is very close to the driving fun of a true sports sedan.

Of course, the "bottom of the line" of the ELLPS cars is/are still firmly planted as a card carrying member of the ELLPS family. Yet, for folks who frequent these formums and the brand specific sites, my assumption is that very few of us look to the ELLPS brand of our dreams and think, "I'm gettin' me a strippie . . . ." My conclusion is that the mavens who are participating here are more likely than not to equip their cars with a lot of performance and tech options -- and probably a fair amount of "L"uxury features too.

The ELLPS class here on Edmunds, IMHO, has to be one of the most active boards and enjoys the participation of mostly very passionate (and opinionated) car lovers.

Much as I love cars like the S6 (if there are many "like" the S6), I think the S4 "class" (ELLPS) is really where the action and drama lie.


I'm driving it like I (at age 63) live.

sweendogy

Love the @markcincinnati‌ posts - flow so well. I also agree if 60k (msrp on my s4 was 57 and change) for Ellps is now the norm then the s4 (please get the sports diff for the 1k, it works magic) is the machine to beat even in its 5th year. I have to wonder thou what is ELLps- when I was looking at my G 35k was always a number I thought would be entry level lux. I really wonder what exactly is entry level performance and lux- Is it now 40k ? 50k? 60k? If it's over 50k and you are looking be hard pressed to find something better the s4- imo

dino001

It's hard to find a legitimate ELLPS below 40 grand. There are some nice ELLS below 40 k, but they lack the "P". Then there are also some nice ELPS, too, but their luxury scope is often limited to couple of nice features. Ok machines, but not ELLPS. Another part is base version vs. optioned. Not just leather, but engine, sports suspension, or engine, will change the machine dramatically.

stickguy

I actually looked back to the beginning of this thread (from 2002!). I still think that the S4, 335i are a step up (middle level?). The TLX, A4, 320/328, S60 still fit the profile for EL.

sweendogy

@stickguy might have a real point - would add the Q50 and old G37 now q40 to the list as well. Bang for buck plus sudo lux I would find a better car then old g37 that bests fits. Or one could get a used 335 or s4 with a few miles.

sweendogy

For those considering a Volvo or the new acura TLX -or those who would compare both- http://youtu.be/QsLrJZsP38o

stickguy

well, those are 2 cars I certainly wouldn't be buying if I was planning to go drag racing!

flightnurse

Interesting video, Rick and I started the look for his SUV, and we went to the Volvo dealer and drove a XC60 with the E-Drive engine, this is a Super and Turbo Charged 2 liter engine, rated at 302hp and 295lbs of torque. Just as this video shows, the S60 just walks away from the TLX, as did the XC60 very impressed with the amount power it makes. So for 50K you get a fully loaded top of the line Volvo XC60 that can run with the other guys. I noticed that invoice for this SUV is 48K and people having been paying under invoice for it, also if you do the Euro Delivery you save 5% of the purchase price, PLUS 2 round trip tickets to Sweden, hotel stay (one night) and 15 days of insurance. This sweetens the deal a lot..

We also liked the Q5, a lot, and the 3.0 TDI torque is way addictive, so far the interior of the Q5 is our fave... The X3 was nice, the 2 liter diesel was hard press to complain about the power, We have more SUV's to look at, I'm looking forward in testing the Jeep Grand Cherokee with the diesel engine.

We drove a MDX, we both thought it was nice, but bulky and the lack of customizing made it fall off the list quickly. Now if you are on a budget and looking for a nicely loaded SUV then the MDX is one to look at. While at the dealer we look at the TLX and liked it, Acura did it right...

markcincinnati

I would agree with the 2002 observation -- and even agree perhaps for a number of years after 2002; but we're just about at the end of 2014. My point? Things have changed in 12 years.

The 335, the S4 and some incarnation of the Mercedes C class are ELLPS cars based on the places we could logically and appropriately place them.

And, while I am certain you could find ELLPS cars all day long with "about" a $40K price tag, it does seem -- now -- that because there is both a stronger "P" and "L"component in the acronym (than 10-12 years ago), that the price of entry has probably crept up to a more realistic level of $45K or more.

As I mentioned, I believe that because folks here on Edmunds are er, more passionate, about cars and they really do want both the P and the L, "strippies" of some of the ELLPS cars are probably not what we're opining about here.

Now, along comes the new ELLPS class, perhaps?

What [or, perhaps, WHERE does it belong?] is an A3 or more pointedly an S3? It/they, today, could possibly be argued as deserving a footnote or honorary inclusion into the ELLPS class. But perhaps with the 2016 current ELLPS models looming "larger" (perhaps somewhat literally) than today's and certainly larger (for the most part) than the A3 (with its shorter wheelbase and girth), perhaps the entire current membership of the ELLPS family needs to be moved to a newly named forum vacating the ELLPS space thus allowing the A3, S3 and the soon to follow cars from Asia, Europe and the US, to fill in as the NEW NORMAL ELLPS cars.

Of course, if that happens, where does a BMW 3 or Audi A4 or Volvo S60 or TLX, Q50 or, or, or, end up? A 3 series will not be welcome in the LPS forum discussions -- will it? A 3 series is not a 5 series an A4 is not an A6, and so forth.

The lines blur, they come into focus, they blur again; the cars get bigger (almost univerally) every time a new generation is released. A 2014 3 series seems bigger, to me, than a 2003 5 series -- etc etc. So what was true in 2002 just doesn't carry on (my wayward son.)

What's between an ELLPS and an LPS anyway? PPPLPS - Popularly Priced Premium Luxury Performance Sedan (or would that be the step below ELLPS?) Or perhaps UMLPS - Updwardly Mobile Luxury Performance Sedan? Maybe NQQFBLPS - Not Quite Qualified to be a Full Blown Luxury Performance Sedan. No no, how 'bout ILLPS in keeping with the "E" for Entry -- we bump it up to: Intermediate Level Luxury Performance Sedan, and we move the current ELLPS players into the ILLPS class and move the up and coming "Jr ELLPS's" of today into the void left by moving the current folks from ELLPS to ILLPS and so on . . .

Yeah, that's the ticket.

Almost forgot: Boo! Happy Halloween!

stickguy

If you are looking at an x3 and xc90, should look at Acura RDX. Instead to be comparable.

Very quick and less bulky than an MDX. And quite a bit cheaper.

flightnurse

stickguy said:

If you are looking at an x3 and xc90, should look at Acura RDX. Instead to be comparable.

Very quick and less bulky than an MDX. And quite a bit cheaper.

The XC90 is the larger of the two Volvo SUV's, we looked at the RDX and it felt cramped to us. I was surprised that the rear had the amount of legroom it had, but the head to roof test was the problem. Plus the new XC90 is coming in the spring with a price tag that starts with the X5, north of 50K.

stickguy

I meant 60, since that is what you said you drove. Freudian slip I guess.

I find the RDX to be roomy enough up front, and I am not small, nor is my wife. But it does have a very large back seat.

Headroom? First I heard anyone complain about that on the RDX. I normally have issues (large Torso to leg ratio!), and some cars like the 2001 TL I just could not drive without my head jammed in the roof. But I don't come close to hitting in the RDX.

Oh well. that is why they make so many cars. Just have to find what works for you. The RDX at least is a bargain compared to the Euro ones.

flightnurse

stickguy said:

Oh well. that is why they make so many cars. Just have to find what works for you. The RDX at least is a bargain compared to the Euro ones.

I agree that for the price it is a bargain, by other issue with the Japanese is you can't custom their cars, it's take it or leave it. It's more the color combo then anything else that bothers me. Acura has a great blue, but it only comes in Grey leather.. Why not tan or Ivory...

stickguy

My wife wanted the nice blue badly, but they only offered it on the MDX. The dark gray we got is nice though, and we have the tan interior. Gray would have been nice too.

markcincinnati

The RDX is FWD biased and currently can't be had with what used to be the RDX's secret sauce, SH-AWD. The RDX is certainly nice looking and is, as noted, high content for the money.

It is, however, an appliance, a very good appliance but rather unremarkable if you are looking for anything beyond modest (and I think that is generous) performance.

The RDX, like all Acura's is probably one of the most reliable and I would, therefore, assume durable vehicles in the small to mid size CUV universe.

Life, as I now know, being north of 60, is too short for boring cars.

My vote would be for the X3 of the choices suggested -- but I did much appreciate the XC60 T6 when I floored the accelerator -- the thing has some serious torque, the X3 (at the price point) couldn't even come close.

The X3 however felt like it was on rails.

Here is the test I use -- I find a curve on a secondary road -- a very lightly traveled secondary road. I look for a curve marked 15mph or 20mph (at most). Then I approach the curve at more than double the posted speed; next I brake hard for a moment to reduce speed to double the posted speed and to force a weight transfer to the front wheel. As I enter the curve at 30mph, I accelerate hard as soon as the front wheels have passed the mid point of the curve.

If the car easily remains in its lane, I repeat the process at triple the posted speed.

The X3 easily handles this "experiment" and the feeling is that it could go at the corner at more than 3x the posted "suggested" speed. The RDX (old version with the turbo 4 and SH-AWD could do this all day.) The new one plows and crosses the center line. The XC60 was a T6 Type R and it felt in good control of its understeering urges too. But the Volvo was much closer to its limit since it didn't shift enough power aft since there technically was no actual loss of traction.

The X3 was the natural -- were money no object, the X3 with the i6 turbo would clearly be the one to get if you wanted some salt and pepper on your "meat."

stickguy

well, as always, money comes into play. Big difference between stretching from a "normal" CUV to an RDX in the low-mid 30s, and jumping to a European hot rod for 50k+, if not pushing 60 large.

Modest performance? If you mean acceleration, given that it does 0-60 in the low 6's, you have some awfully high standards! We obviously travel in different automotive standard circles!

flightnurse

stickguy said:

well, as always, money comes into play. Big difference between stretching from a "normal" CUV to an RDX in the low-mid 30s, and jumping to a European hot rod for 50k+, if not pushing 60 large.

Modest performance? If you mean acceleration, given that it does 0-60 in the low 6's, you have some awfully high standards! We obviously travel in different automotive standard circles!

We want to stay south of 55K, well I bumped to 55K, Rick didn't want to go north of 50K. But the Q5 with the TDI can't be had for under 50K with the Tech package...

flightnurse

markcincinnati said:

The X3 was the natural -- were money no object, the X3 with the i6 turbo would clearly be the one to get if you wanted some salt and pepper on your "meat."

What was the reason for your wife getting the SQ5? over the X3? I find the interior of the Q5 a much more inviting environment over the X3, but the X3 did handle better I thought.

carnaught

Mark, entertaining posts, as usual.

markcincinnati

Simply put, the SQ5 -- even at its price point -- offered more content, the immpeccable interior Audi seems to do with aplomb, and oh that supercharged engine with zero lag, weapons grade torque -- and the SQ5 had a gorgeous red leather interior to boot.

To get the same or similar content, the BMW was even more expensive; and I think she felt the SQ5's interior, sport seats in particular plus the B&O sound system cinched it -- almost. Panther Black Pearl paint sealed the deal. That plus a 6% discount on NOT your garden variety Q5 or X3 -- Audi iimbues its "S" cars with "that certain something" -- undoubtedly sealed the deal.

Having matching interiors was probably a minor influencer, too.

She has had 2 X3's since 2005 -- very fond of them. But, if you've never driven an SQ5 at full cry, you may not quite understand the almost immediate reaction: An "addiction" to the sound and the fury, wrapped up in what seems to be a premium CAR -- the BMW for all of its inherent goodness just doesn't seem as nice of a place to spend hours in. Then, of course, there is that oh-so-cute flat bottomed sport steering wheel on the SQ, too.

If you can take an SQ5 out for a test drive.

On the other hand . . .

The BMW is better balanced -- but the SQ passes the triple speed around the curve test with ease and poise. As a practical matter, that attribute felt pretty much like a draw, despite the BMW's less heavy nose. The Audi engineers did a very nice job taming the potetial understeer of the SQ's fatter front-end.

Just test drive an SQ -- perhaps you too will want to keep on driving it, long aafter the test drive ends. One more thing, the SQ5 is very rare, you won't see yourself coming and going -- the X3 even with the more potent i6 motivation is rather easy to find, and unlike the SQ seems to do little to differentiate itself from the "regular" X3.

stickguy

isn't the Q5 interior (and cargo area) on the small side for the class? I remember looking at them before we got the RDX, and I have it in my head that it seemed very tight in the back.

flightnurse

markcincinnati said:

Just test drive an SQ -- perhaps you too will want to keep on driving it, long aafter the test drive ends. One more thing, the SQ5 is very rare, you won't see yourself coming and going -- the X3 even with the more potent i6 motivation is rather easy to find, and unlike the SQ seems to do little to differentiate itself from the "regular" X3.

This is how I feel in regards to the Q5 TDI.... Gobs of torque that starts off so low and just pulls and pulls..

BTW the Audi dealer had a couple of the new Q3, nice SUV, for 37K was surprised on how it was, but on the small side for what we are looking for.

nyccarguy

I've seen a few IS350 F Sports around. Those are really sharp & aggressive looking. Probably my favorite looker of the current (classic) crop of ELLPS.

markcincinnati

And the punchline is: "He Only Took Tips!"

A tip for those who are either owners of or contemplating one of these ELLPS or ELLPSUV/CUV's -- assuming the vehicle in question is not a BMW.

Here goes: many, probably most of these cars tend toward -- or outright already have -- some degree of nose heaviness. Audi is certainly not known for "50 - 50" weight balance, for instance. Acura, Volvo and most certainly others (again not BMW) are absolutely nose heavy when configured as 2WD vehicles (since they mostly are FWD when ordered thusly). More and more of these ELLP vehicles are ordered every year with 4-driven wheels (the up take here in SW Ohio is now for "mostly" AWD versions -- even most BMW's and Mercedes are acquired with AWD so say the dealers). Alas, even the AWD versions are nose-heavy.

The thing that I've learned that is a quick, easy and virtually free way to improve upon some of the effects of being a bit porky on the front is to inflate the front tires +2 pounds more than the rear tires; and, typically to inflate the fronts to one or two pounds MORE than the factory sticker suggests.

My S4 says to inflate the tires at max to 42 pounds. I inflate front to 43 and rear to 41 (using the free nitrogen "air" Costco offers its members).

We had a cold snap here in River City yesterday -- of course the air pressure in all four tires dropped dramatically -- we went from 70+ degrees to overnight temps in the upper teens with a daytime high an optimistic 41.

Since I was at Costco getting my fill up of their Top-Tier premium, I also went for the free air fill-up. Based on the length of time before the "ding" indicating 43 pounds, the pressure had to have been over 5 or 6 pounds below that.

To ensure the tires were cold, I drove to Costco, parked and went shopping in the store for a while, then went to the tire dept for my fill-up.

I kid you not -- and I've known this for years, yet I was as pleasantly surprised as could be -- the turn-in was IMMEDIATELY sharper, like the car had been placed on a set of shiny new rails.

OK, that is the "free" (as in almost zero cost) tip.

Here's one, that when coupled with the above free tip, will further dramatically improve your heavy nosed (and this one works on any car) ELLP vehicle's steering dynamics: switching out of the factory tires (unless certain tires are already on your ELLP car) into the top of the line performance tires in the class (of tire) that you would normally drive.

For example -- here in SW Ohio -- no one (well, virtually no one) uses "summer" and "winter" tires -- they use either "summer" tires year round or (more likely) all-season tires, year round.

The Germans have even gone so far as to specify as no cost options, typically, the ability to order your car with summer only or all season rubber. Dealers typically order their for-stock vehicles with all-season rubber to keep their customers from complaining about the super fast tire wear and the almost unusable traction summer tires offer to those of us who do have temps that go below 40 - 45 degrees from time to time (our typical winters are usually above freezing, but usually below 45 which is the kryptonite temp for summer only tires).

The thing is, a lot of the "all-season" tires are either Grand Touring tires or are simply H rated all-seasons (generally from a well-known brand and generally with a fairly long tread-life expectation).

My S4 came with H rated Grand Touring tires. What were they thinking? Offered up to order is an S4 with either summer or all-season tires. I checked the all-season box since, well, you know, I live in Cincinnati and we really (usually) have very mild winters in terms of both temp and snowfall. Why do I need dedicated winter tires in my climate, so to speak?

I don't.

Grand Touring tires are fine -- but, if you ax' me they have no business on an Audi S car of any stripe.

What is better -- much much better? Easy-peasy: an Ultra-High Performance All-Season tire from one of the name brands all of the German's buy from. We ended up with Continental ExtremeContact DWS Ultra High Performance All-Seasons from Tire Rack -- shipped to the dealer, installed and road-force balanced. These tires should have their picture placed beside the word "sticky" in your Merriam-Webster.

They have super-stiff (compared to the rather comfy-biased Grand Touring H rated rubber that the S4 came with) sidewalls and they are Y speed-rated. Of course, since I ordered my car with the all-season tire option, Audi saw fit to engage a max-speed limiter that tops out at 130 (easily switched off, if you really think you're going to need to exceed 130MPH).

So, you can, for relatively little money (close to zero) noticeably improve your ELLP's turn-in, gas mileage and overall handling by simply cranking up the fronts to +2 pounds over the rears and by cranking up the front 1 or 2 pounds over the door jam's "suggestion."

Then for what will probably amount to $700 to $1,000 all-in (but for some of these cars that you can order 20" wheels, the $ amount will be higher), you can take the next big step and get rid of the almost certainly "wimpy" tires the manufacturers seem to put on these cars when the "no summer only" tire option is checked.

Virtually all of these ELLPS, ELLPSUV/CUV vehicles are nose heavy -- which manifests itself as under-steer. It is unlikely you can, as the saying goes, put lipstick on a pig and turn it into a Porsche in the handling department -- but, with my hand raised on high, I can attest that by doing both of the suggested tips above, I even transformed my TL Advance from somewhat of a farm-implement (i.e., it could tend to "plow" a little bit even with SH-AWD) due to its less than ideal 60-40 (or something like that) F/R weight distribution) into a confidence inspiring and -- with a consideration for its price -- "S4-light" ELLPS.

Of course, in the case of the Acura TL Advance w/SH-AWD the 19" H rated tires that it came with couldn't have sucked anymore even if their name was Hoover (I crack myself up).

So, my friends and fellow posters, if you're laying out something north of $45,000, you can for no to relatively low money transform your baby from "nice" to a vehicle that, quoting my wife, "goes like a snake in a rat hole."

If you play your cards right, you can make the UHP all-seasons (or whatever you and your "climate" could call optimum) part of the purchase/lease deal when you order the car or before you sign on the dotted line to buy/lease one off the lot.

Hopefully the above will have some merit and even more $ value and most of all "fun to drive" value for at least one forum participant.

Drive it . . . oh hell, you know the rest.

carnaught

Mark, bravo....

Mr_Shiftright

I just bought those Contis for my MINI---they do stick well but are also somewhat compliant, which I like. "Skateboard" cars like the MINI are harsh enough as it is. Nice tires for the sporting driver who doesn't need to go to extremes on public roads.

roadburner

Mr_Shiftright said:

I just bought those Contis for my MINI---they do stick well but are also somewhat compliant, which I like. "Skateboard" cars like the MINI are harsh enough as it is. Nice tires for the sporting driver who doesn't need to go to extremes on public roads.

I run the Cooper RS3-A UHP all-season as the winter tire on my MS3(the Michelin PSS is the summer tire) and year round on my son's X3 truck. It looks like I will get over 45k miles out of the tire in each application. I will likely go with the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 when the Coopers wear out since the local tire shop I use no longer carries Cooper tires.

laurasdada

I actually replaced the OEM Dunlop Summer tires on my '09 XK with the Conti Extreme Contact DWS in order to have the slightest chance of moving on any kind of grade in the snow (not intentionally, but with Boston weather, you just never know when snow will strike....like Sunday morning!). Of course, once I put th new sneaks on the XK, I traded for an AWD XF. As I traded my newly Vredestein-shod '05 TL for the XK. It would seem with me, new tires are a harbinger of new cars to come...

Michaell

laurasdada said:

It would seem with me, new tires are a harbinger of new cars to come...

We did that with both of our Saturn VUE's ... new tires meant that it got traded in within a few months.

Wife was concerned that when we put new tires on the CX-7, it wasn't long for the household.

markcincinnati

Continental ExtremeContact DWS Ultra High Performance All-Seasons have, as some here have alluded to, been somewhat dethroned in the most recent Tire Rack test:

"Michelin has reset the performance standard for an all-season tire with their Pilot Sport A/S 3, which delivers impressive handling in both dry and wet conditions. And while not apparent during our short road evaluation, when running laps on our test track at the limit this tire showed a little more tread wear than the others tires. But this focus on ultimate performance during the summer months compromises its wintertime capabilities somewhat. The Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position is a pleasure to drive, with a satisfying feel in the steering wheel and good handling in dry and wet conditions. However, it falls way short of what most drivers would consider adequate in winter conditions. The Continental ExtremeContact DWS doesn't quite have the nimble feel of the others, but offers good ride quality and reasonable handling along with good overall traction regardless of the weather - dry, wet or winter."

I found the above @: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=177

Now, having lived about 20,000 miles with the Contis DWS Ultra High Performance -- in Cincinnati's climate -- I would not hesitate to "go again" with the Contis.

If I lived perhaps 100 miles or so due south of Cincinnati, the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3's would certainly vie for my dollars.

The further north I might live, however, the Conti DWS UHP's would still be the ones to beat based on the Tire Rack review. The review does tend to make me think the DWS's are much more of a compromise than anything else, but they are much stiffer than the standard GT Contis that came with my S4, very quiet and they do improve the handling of the car as noted in my post regarding air pressure and tires.

It would appear that the Michelin's are the new standard in UHP all seasons, but the review seems to suggest they are not as all year round good as the Continentals.

It's great to have such excellent choices.

Mr_Shiftright

Also pricier I bet.

brian125

I'm going to give a shout out for the Michelin Primacy MXV4.

Excellent tire with stellar reviews for a V or H rating . Like mark posted above with the new Premier A/S tire you no longer have to worry how long it will take to accomplish a panic stop while driving in a downpour because of the premiers tire wear.. which was not good before the upgrade.

Cant go wrong with either tire

sweendogy

@markcincinnati‌ and others - the a/s UHP tires are really nice- I had a set on my old Infiniti made by goodyear that did the trick - BUT even though they are nice "What is better -- much much better? Easy-peasy:" is dedicated set of summer UHP and dedicated winters set up if you indeed would like to use the S to its real performance / utility abilities. My set up is as such- summer on car now and in profile pix are 19 Zr 255/35 conti extremes. Winter we go 18 R 235/45 winter sport dunnies on standard rims. Talking max grip when weather is nice, - sport diff helps as well. In the winter it's a billy goat with Quattro. Dedicated winters are where it's at if you have to deal with tough winters/ I know there has been some debate about this but its a fact, they work wonders no matter what drive wheels are pushing or pulling the sled.

roadburner

UHP all seasons are fine year round for vehicles like my son's X3 truck, but I run summer rubber and switch to either winter tires or UHP all seasons in early December on most everything else in the stable- even my wife's E90 328i snoozemobile. In any event, I have a Wrangler Sahara equipped with winter rubber in case the snow really piles up.

markcincinnati

sween and roadb -- you two are doing it the way that it really SHOULD be done. I assume I am in the majority who just aren't willing or perhaps even mentally willing to spend on two sets of tires. I admit the solution you two have chosen is superior.

My original point was to suggest tips that would improve your (our) lot in life -- if we live in a place that has moderate winters or in a city that mitigates the impact of snow with super human snow removal and lots of road chemicals.

Were I a resident of, say, Minnesota or North Dakota or perhaps even Michigan, I may feel the need for four dedicated winter shoes.

Were I the type to really push my car (S or no) to more than 85%, perhaps that too would argue in favor of summer MAX Performance tires (my 2009 A4 did come with MAX performance 35 series 19" x 255's -- they lasted 11,000 miles).

I like to drive somewhat at a higher level than, I assume, most US drivers. I have a car that allows me to be a better driver than I probably am (in real life); I have been to 4 Audi driving schools in Austria, one Porsche school in little ol' Dayton, Ohio and a BMW X-drive school in South (and North) Carolina.

I have the schoolin' and the car to get 'er done -- therefore, I find my skills and my car to be under-tired with the mostly crappy all-seasons manufacturers foist upon Americans who (mostly like me) don't do what you two do.

I am lobbying the manufacturers (Audi in my case) to consider stepping up to UHP A/S's rather than the much lower "performance" rubber most manufacturers shod their cars with when the customer orders "non-Summer" tires.

I take my hat off to your two who are willing and able to not go for the optimum, rather electing to go for the maximum you can get, even if it means changing your wheels and tires out twice per year.

For those who aren't willing to walk the walk (that would be me) of the twice yearly ritual, all I am hoping to convey is that there is a much much better performing car waiting to be let loose if you will at least upgrade to UHP A/S;s rather than not even know what you're missing.

You two, indeed, drive it like you live. I applaud your behavior but I'm still OK with mine.

You might say, and I do, that good is the enemy of great. In this case, I'll say what I am looking for is to graduate from good to very good -- which still remains the enemy of greatness, but in this instance, I, for one, am willing to live with it.

sweendogy

Now in my second swap out and mark I agree it's not the best- I don't know the perfect date to do the swap- don't want to wait to long and hit a patch of ice on slicks or drive to long on the harder winters in decent mild weather. The cost to swap is not cheap when also buying another set of rims along with the cost of tires. The goodyear a/s UHP I had on the G - they did the trick just fine. They def rode a little harsher then the standard G tires and were better in the sun- but the G on the old set (when new) was better in the snow with the standard non UHP - a/s. No perfect answer in this equation, unless you move to either Arizona or Alaska. I would go to Zona.

Kirstie_H

A reporter seeks to interview a recent new car buyer who financed through a 72-month or longer loan. Please email PR@edmunds.com to share your story.

roadburner

Kirstie_H said:

A reporter seeks to interview a recent new car buyer who financed through a 72-month or longer loan. Please email PR@edmunds.com to share your story.

Didn't there used to be a topic entitled "I'm Upside Down and Can't Get Up?"

sweendogy

@kristie_h - love those adds - always on topic and useful-this information is it actually used for an article or market research? 

flightnurse

I travel for work and for the most part get to drive many different cars over and over again, my current fave cars to rent are Nissan Altima, Chrysler 300 and Chevy Impala. The new Chrsyler 200 is nice looking but still need work.. But there is a new car company that is in select city called Silver Car all they rent are Silver Audi A4 Premium Plus cars with Nav. I have rented from them once, and was impressed their service and the car. They aren't a force to make a difference in the rental car world but it is nice to rent a fun without spending too much money.

sweendogy

@flightnurse‌ - silver car- checked out the website seems pretty cool, but I wish my car was another color. I have not rented a car in years but this would be a better way to go-

flightnurse

So here is the first test of the new Audi A3, 1.8T FWD, and of course it is silver..

robr2

flightnurse said:

So here is the first test of the new Audi A3, 1.8T FWD, and of course it is silver..

But is it an ELLPS

EL = under 30K so yes IMHO
L = leather is standard so yes
P = 1.8 maybe FWD no manumatic maybe
S = it's a sedan.

m6user

Nobody has had a problem with the A4 being ELLPS and that is FWD in base form as well. 1.8 is smaller but so is the car so the performance may be similar.

stickguy

that C&D article said 6.5 0-60 for the 1.8. That seems to fast, since it put the 2.0 quattro in the mid-5s.

markcincinnati

robr2 said:

flightnurse said:

So here is the first test of the new Audi A3, 1.8T FWD, and of course it is silver..

But is it an ELLPS?

EL = under 30K so yes IMHO (but not for the ILLPS -- see below)
L = leather is standard so yes (boarder-line if you axe me)
P = 1.8 maybe (oh hell no) FWD no (make that NO!) manumatic maybe (dual clutch -- DC -- autos with 6 or more speeds, yes; other non DC boxes should probably offer more speeds)
S = it's a sedan (does this include 4-door "coupes"? I would think yes).

=====
Here goes:
=====

I'll stick with the A3 & A4 to introduce a new forum class for "LPS" [suffix'd] cars.

For the moment, let's say the ELLPS class is solidly where the new A3 belongs, To me, that seems to suggest the A4 (and the 2016 A4 leaps to mind) is no longer an ELLPS, nor is it an LPS, since the A6 is the representative of the LPS entry from Audi.

Well, two LPS classes used to be sufficient -- but over the past few years car companies have scrambled to "find a hole" in the market and create a new car model to plug it. And, no hole seems either too big or too little -- model proliferation is the norm these days.

Audi and BMW (and Mercedes too) have become the masters of model proliferation, it seems.

And, just about "everybody" demonstrates "wheelbase" [or overall length] and girth growth every time they birth the new generation of a model. The BMW 3, for instance, has grown so much so that it is, in many ways, larger than a not-that-old 5 series. The current A4 used to be the size of the new A3 -- and when the current A4 was introduced in the US as a 2009 model it's wheelbase was within a fraction of an inch of the size of the then current A6. I know, I had a 2005 A6 that I kept for 6 months after the lease ended so that I could move to the new A4 and not have any period of time where I was not in an Audi. When the 2009 A4 came in to the dealer, I pulled my A6 up beside it -- and it was virtually impossible to tell the difference between the two with respect to wheelbase.

The A4 got big! Then, when the new gen A6 came out, it, of course, grew in size -- the A3 was in the pipeline (not the 2009 A3, which was essentially a VW) and what we have in the brand new A3 is a car that plugs the hole left by the move up of the A4 into what used to be the size class of the A6, Numerous examples of this phenomenon can be cited for the cars that come from BMW, Mercedes, Cadillac and Lexus.

We now have -- at least -- 3 size (and price) categories for cars to fit into and still be, in some fashion (class) LPS cars. ELLPS, ILLPS & LPS is my proposal.

ILLPS means Intermediate Level LPS also known as a member of the phylum: Luxoperforiososedantis.

So, assuming we all accept the notion that three LPS classes are now appropriate, we move the current (and certainly 2016's upcoming) A4, 3 series and C class (while were sticking with the Germans) to the ILLPS forum and open up the new, 'blank slate', ELLPS board (forum) for cars like the new Audi A3, BMW 2 series (which may be problematic since it doesn't have 4-doors as far as I know) and the Mercedes CLA (which is a 4-door coupe, according to MB). We move the CTS firmly to the LPS forum and put the ATS in with the ILPS cars if its wheelbase (among other things) doesn't force it into the ELLPS class.

I would think wheelbase would be one criteria, total length and width of the car two additional criteria, base price and 90% maximum price yet an additional criteria, and so forth.

Which brings me to perception.

I cannot -- YET -- place the Hyundai Genesis (for example) in the mix of LPS anything; however, there is a strong resemblance to some of the phylum's class members at least insofar as luxury content is concerned. I would assume the Genesis will be an LPS member someday.

Perhaps time in the market is a criteria -- no one wants a poser -- and it takes time to earn your place in phylum Luxoperforiososedantis.

In any case, the time has come for the current ELLPS suspects to move to the ILLPS forum.

At least I think so.

robr2

mark - dude, you have way too much time on your hands!!

flightnurse

So here is a short Car and Driver test of the new C400 4matic, prices tested was north of $61K.

stickguy

61 large for a C class? Wow.

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, that's what they cost with any kind of options. I recently priced one out for a friend who really likes options and we ran it up to $65K. (He's not doing that, not on my watch).