Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

sweendogy

The payments someone would make on a cpo would be a lot less then a new car. Yes the car would be older but the payments would significantly less and the ability to buy a better car (all in) with less cash. The financing rates of used are as good as new - so that's not the issue- if you are paying for a cpo 5 years after delivery you should not be buying a Cpo- you should not be buying a new car- you should lease or maybe downgrade expectations on what you can afford.

stickguy

I agree with Sween. And NYC. NYC in that I don't want to pay on a car more than 4-5 YO. And sween that if you are, you spent too much on the CPO.

I look at a CPO this way. If I am willing to go 5 years payments on a new car, I will go 3 on a 2 YO CPO. Payments end at the same age. So the only way it makes sense is if the price is lower enough to make it worthwhile, since I am giving up two years use on the car (and the best 2!)

Plus you have to keep a car older than 5 years, otherwise you are always making payments. Though overall the payments should be lower (since the car is cheaper) but that can actually cancel out if you trade every 3 years.

roadburner

stickguy said:

I agree with Sween. And NYC. NYC in that I don't want to pay on a car more than 4-5 YO. And sween that if you are, you spent too much on the CPO.

I look at a CPO this way. If I am willing to go 5 years payments on a new car, I will go 3 on a 2 YO CPO. Payments end at the same age. So the only way it makes sense is if the price is lower enough to make it worthwhile, since I am giving up two years use on the car (and the best 2!)

Plus you have to keep a car older than 5 years, otherwise you are always making payments. Though overall the payments should be lower (since the car is cheaper) but that can actually cancel out if you trade every 3 years.

That's what we do; we've had our newest car(the CPO E90) for 2.5 years and will probably keep it an additional 3-5 years. Our next newest car(the 2007 MS3, bought new) has been in the garage 7.5 years.

stickguy

makes sense, and I have done the same thing. How old it is when you get it shouldn't change your tolerance for how long to keep a car.

billyperks4

"makes sense, and I have done the same thing. How old it is when you get it shouldn't change your tolerance for how long to keep a car."

I go with the itch- had the TL for almost six years (LOVE the car) but I had the itch for the twin turbo.

dino001

ivan_99 said:

I don't think I'd do a CPO again.

The biggest problem I had was after year 3 of the payments I was (still) making payments for a 5-6 year old car. So when you're nearing 5 years of payments you're paying for an 8-9 year old car.

To be blunt, you simply bought a car you couldn't afford and the five-year loan simply masked that fact. Having to take a 5-year loan on nearly 3-year old car is basically an equivalent of taking a 7-year or longer loan on a new car and nobody with their right senses would do that. It's a false choice between a new non-luxury or used luxury brand for those who have to borrow money for long term to buy it. That choice only works financially when one can pay cash or takes a two or three year loan.

billyperks4

I took a three year loan paying .90 bps (pretty cheap loan), they gave me 20.5K for the TL - I think I did okay.

roadburner

billyperks4 said:

"makes sense, and I have done the same thing. How old it is when you get it shouldn't change your tolerance for how long to keep a car."

I go with the itch- had the TL for almost six years (LOVE the car) but I had the itch for the twin turbo.

Now I'm confused; I thought you bought an F10 535i.

graphicguy

roadburner said:

billyperks4 said:

"makes sense, and I have done the same thing. How old it is when you get it shouldn't change your tolerance for how long to keep a car."

I go with the itch- had the TL for almost six years (LOVE the car) but I had the itch for the twin turbo.

Now I'm confused; I thought you bought an F10 535i.

Twin scroll turbo is what billy meant, maybe?

billyperks4

yup- twin scroll.

nyccarguy

billyperks4 said:

I took a three year loan paying .90 bps (pretty cheap loan), they gave me 20.5K for the TL - I think I did okay.

How many miles are on your 2011 535xi? What's the original in service date? $20.5K for the TL is a testament of Acura's excellent resale value, you car's low mileage, and I'm sure it was in exceptional condition.

Funny, you got that itch. Same thing happened when I leased my 328xi. There was nothing wrong with my TSX. The problem I had with it was after I test drover the 328xi and got back into it. Now my DD is a 175 horsepower Subaru

roadburner

Got it.

flightnurse

billyperks4 said:

I took a three year loan paying .90 bps (pretty cheap loan), they gave me 20.5K for the TL - I think I did okay.

I received a e-mail from my BMW dealer that said, that all CPO 2011-12 models are on sale, with .9% for up to 3 years and up to $750/m for two months free payments.. But Bill did it right, have a big down payment and cheap money factor then a CPO is a great way to get into a luxury car.

ivan_99

dino001 said:

ivan_99 said:

I don't think I'd do a CPO again.

The biggest problem I had was after year 3 of the payments I was (still) making payments for a 5-6 year old car. So when you're nearing 5 years of payments you're paying for an 8-9 year old car.

To be blunt, you simply bought a car you couldn't afford and the five-year loan simply masked that fact. Having to take a 5-year loan on nearly 3-year old car is basically an equivalent of taking a 7-year or longer loan on a new car and nobody with their right senses would do that. It's a false choice between a new non-luxury or used luxury brand for those who have to borrow money for long term to buy it. That choice only works financially when one can pay cash or takes a two or three year loan.

I think you're probably right...either new or used I don't like paying for 5 years. I should make whatever is purchased (new or used) fit in 3 years of payments. When I get around year 4 I always have the inner dialog "I'm STILL paying for this...".

flightnurse

So here is mini test of the new 2015 Infiniti Q70L AWD

brian125

To much money for a vehicle with these negatives.

Lows:

Heavy steering, intrusive road noise, sharp road impacts.

I'd like to to see what Cr reports has to say about this model. Probably not good.

flightnurse

brian125 said:

To much money for a vehicle with these negatives.

Lows:

Heavy steering, intrusive road noise, sharp road impacts.

I'd like to to see what Cr reports has to say about this model. Probably not good.

Infiniti has been in a slow downward spiral, they really need to up their game

graphicguy

I've tried to like Infinitis for a long time. Every time I look at them and test drive them, I'm disappointed.

Assuming the Q70 used to be the former M chassis. What's the point of going from one letter to another?

I know they did make a drastic price cut of the former G series, and that may be saving their bacon. But, even there, it's long in the tooth and certainly not very fuel efficient, by any stretch.

I just don't know where they are competing.

ab348

graphicguy said:

I've tried to like Infinitis for a long time. Every time I look at them and test drive them, I'm disappointed.

I feel the same. I almost think of them as the Lincoln of Asian cars.

markcincinnati

graphicguy said:

I've tried to like Infinitis for a long time. Every time I look at them and test drive them, I'm disappointed.

Assuming the Q70 used to be the former M chassis. What's the point of going from one letter to another?

I know they did make a drastic price cut of the former G series, and that may be saving their bacon. But, even there, it's long in the tooth and certainly not very fuel efficient, by any stretch.

I just don't know where they are competing.

Well, here are some thoughts on Infiniti -- from a former owner of an Infiniti product and also, at the same time, an Acura product.

The auto manufacturers in the past decades have wanted to "rationalize" their product names. They have wanted to do so for essentially a singular purpose: marketing (leading to increased market share, mind share, sales, etc.)

Infiniti decided that Q was the answer as a prefix and that the following numbers/letter combination would signify the size or perhaps even class of the vehicle. I would assume if money were no object they would have liked to have rolled out a completely new -- across the board -- product family. They had to settle for one new car, the Q50. The M37 became the Q70 as you identified.

It is true that most of us here on Edmunds know the Q70 is the former M37. I would posit that most people, however, won't have a clue that the Q70 is a renamed product.

The M37 and the Q70 are still very competent LPS offerings, even though the Q70 does need to be updated, refreshed or replaced with a newer version. To me, Infinitis have often been [note the tense] the most German-like of the Japanese (and Korean) offerings. The recent "transfer" of their President, Johan De Nysschen, (then late of Audi) to go to Cadillac probably is a negative for Infiniti -- but, well, there you have it -- since I would have assumed Johan would have made good use of his 19-year Audi stint to imbue Infiniti with even more German-ness.

Right now, it seems to me that Infiniti and Acura, both, appear to be somewhat rudderless if their recent products are any indication of what is going on "at the top." The TLX could've have been the vehicle for Acura to announce "we're not Honda anymore," but I think they missed the target completely if you axed me.

Meantime, Lexus has inched its way even further from Toyota and the Koreans are the ones the Germans are probably seeing in their rear-view mirrors more so than anything out of Japan (with the possible exception of the IS350F-sport).

Again, if you axed me, the saving grace for the Germans is the brand name "KIA" -- at least if you live here in River City where removing all the KIA badges seems the norm. If KIA somehow figures out a new name (think GoldStar becoming LG) for their brand, I would think the Germans might have more to worry about.

Today, the Germans seem to be the aspirational cars -- but, as the poet Frost once said, "nothing gold can stay." I did enjoy my time with my 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance, but -- money not a factor -- my 2014 S4 is an entirely different experience (despite my belief that the TL was about as close to an S4 as one could get for about $47K.)

Merry Christmas all.

graphicguy

markcincinnati said:

graphicguy said:

I've tried to like Infinitis for a long time. Every time I look at them and test drive them, I'm disappointed.

Assuming the Q70 used to be the former M chassis. What's the point of going from one letter to another?

I know they did make a drastic price cut of the former G series, and that may be saving their bacon. But, even there, it's long in the tooth and certainly not very fuel efficient, by any stretch.

I just don't know where they are competing.

Well, here are some thoughts on Infiniti -- from a former owner of an Infiniti product and also, at the same time, an Acura product.

The auto manufacturers in the past decades have wanted to "rationalize" their product names. They have wanted to do so for essentially a singular purpose: marketing (leading to increased market share, mind share, sales, etc.)

Infiniti decided that Q was the answer as a prefix and that the following numbers/letter combination would signify the size or perhaps even class of the vehicle. I would assume if money were no object they would have liked to have rolled out a completely new -- across the board -- product family. They had to settle for one new car, the Q50. The M37 became the Q70 as you identified.

It is true that most of us here on Edmunds know the Q70 is the former M37. I would posit that most people, however, won't have a clue that the Q70 is a renamed product.

The M37 and the Q70 are still very competent LPS offerings, even though the Q70 does need to be updated, refreshed or replaced with a newer version. To me, Infinitis have often been [note the tense] the most German-like of the Japanese (and Korean) offerings. The recent "transfer" of their President, Johan De Nysschen, (then late of Audi) to go to Cadillac probably is a negative for Infiniti -- but, well, there you have it -- since I would have assumed Johan would have made good use of his 19-year Audi stint to imbue Infiniti with even more German-ness.

Right now, it seems to me that Infiniti and Acura, both, appear to be somewhat rudderless if their recent products are any indication of what is going on "at the top." The TLX could've have been the vehicle for Acura to announce "we're not Honda anymore," but I think they missed the target completely if you axed me.

Meantime, Lexus has inched its way even further from Toyota and the Koreans are the ones the Germans are probably seeing in their rear-view mirrors more so than anything out of Japan (with the possible exception of the IS350F-sport).

Again, if you axed me, the saving grace for the Germans is the brand name "KIA" -- at least if you live here in River City where removing all the KIA badges seems the norm. If KIA somehow figures out a new name (think GoldStar becoming LG) for their brand, I would think the Germans might have more to worry about.

Today, the Germans seem to be the aspirational cars -- but, as the poet Frost once said, "nothing gold can stay." I did enjoy my time with my 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance, but -- money not a factor -- my 2014 S4 is an entirely different experience (despite my belief that the TL was about as close to an S4 as one could get for about $47K.)

Merry Christmas all.

Mark...as always, I like reading your posts. And, can't disagree. I also just realized that LG has a TOTALLY different connotation than the old GoldStar brand, even though they're the same company.

Best to you and yours!

ab348

graphicguy said:

I also just realized that LG has a TOTALLY different connotation than the old GoldStar brand, even though they're the same company.

LG stands for "Lucky GoldStar".

sweendogy

Would love posters to not include the whole post of others - and thence spins to said post "I agree " as a responce- takes up a lot of space, and makes the responce somewhat "el cheapo" aka bmw 320- to me. Sure its a responce (or a car in the 320) but is it worthy. As others have mentioned the CPO finance rates are very close to new car rates. If you can get a Cpo that fits your criteria why would you not want to save first year depresh- even if it's not cpo you can still get a better (than cpo) deal with the balance of a luxury car makers warrantee and get a better car then you would if new. Love cars - like deals- why not get both. The infinit comments above may be true they lost the way but I can tell you the car was at some time a very capable machine for 3/4 the price- and for me in 07 seemed like a great fit- and after 7 yrs it was.

circlew

Is the Genesis 5.0 worthy of ELLP, or at least ELL sedan?

Power from that 5.0-liter V-8 is down from the 2014 model's 429 hp at 6400 rpm to 420 hp at 6000 rpm, but torque is up. The Genesis V-8 now produces 383 lb-ft at 5000 rpm, up from the 2014 model's 376 lb-ft at 5000 rpm. The Genesis V-8 is happy to sip regular fuel instead of premium, but then it only makes 407 hp and 372 lb-ft.

The new Genesis is a more substantial car, and the weight has a predictable effect at the track. Acceleration from 0 to 60 mph comes in 5.2 seconds, up from that last-gen Genesis' 4.8-second time. That makes the 2015 Genesis V-8 a midpack performer, depending on what you think its competitors are. Smaller, pricier V-8-powered competitors such as the Mercedes-Benz E550 and Infiniti Q70 5.6 will smoke the Genesis V-8. Among price-competitive offerings, an all-wheel-drive 2012 Audi A6 with a supercharged V-6 engine sprinted from 0-60 mph in 4.7 seconds, while a 2012 BMW 535i checked in at 5.5 seconds, an all-wheel-drive 2014 Mercedes-Benz E350 at 5.8 seconds, and a 2013 Lexus GS 350 F Sport with a six-speed automatic at 5.4 seconds. Passing power from 45-65 mph is ample in the Genesis V-8, with a 2.6-second time not appreciably different from that of the last-gen Genesis V-8 (2.4 seconds), A6 3.0T (2.5 seconds), and 2013 GS 350 F Sport (2.6 seconds), but quicker than the 535i's 2.9 seconds and the 2014 CTS 3.6's 3.1 seconds.

stickguy

the mid range passing power is probably more relevant to 99% of buyers, since that is real world. Unless you happen to do a lot of drag racing in your big luxury sedan! a couple of tenths 0-60 in magazine terms in relatively insignificant in the real world. I actually like the street start stat, since you don't get a lot of opportunities to brake torque off the line around here. passing on the highway? Merging? Yeah, that happens!

flightnurse

sweendogy said:

Would love posters to not include the whole post of others - and thence spins to said post "I agree " as a responce- takes up a lot of space, and makes the responce somewhat "el cheapo" aka bmw 320- to me. Sure its a responce (or a car in the 320) but is it worthy. As others have mentioned the CPO finance rates are very close to new car rates. If you can get a Cpo that fits your criteria why would you not want to save first year depresh- even if it's not cpo you can still get a better (than cpo) deal with the balance of a luxury car makers warrantee and get a better car then you would if new. Love cars - like deals- why not get both. The infinit comments above may be true they lost the way but I can tell you the car was at some time a very capable machine for 3/4 the price- and for me in 07 seemed like a great fit- and after 7 yrs it was.

Because people lease cars for business purposes this is why they do get a CPO, the lease rates on them are horrible.

brian125

@circlew said ;

Is the Genesis 5.0 worthy of ELLP, or at least ELL sedan?

I give this car my vote.

I have the 2013 R-spec sedan. I'm very impressed with ride, quality of this vehicle. Nothing but high praise. Handling is not in the Audi or BMW category but that's not why I bought this vehicle. The Genesis is very big inside , ultra quiet on the road , One of the best sounding radio systems ( lexicon ) 17 speakers in any car I heard. Plenty of giddy up when you want to live life fast @429 h/p A good bang for your buck. CR reports / C&D and most reviewers have put the new 2015 model at the top of the pack . A real good buy for your money if you could get past the brand.

I test drove the 2015 Genesis v-6.. This luxury sedan @48k is a great choice that offers amenities that European vehicles are selling 15, to 20k more. The Upgraded suspension modes , Handling, Refinement is well noted on this 2015 model . Add Hyundai's 5/60....100k powertrain warranty makes this vehicle quite appealing .

Lets see if Resale value on this model can stand up.

flightnurse

The resale value isn't that high on the Genesis sedan, but then again the MSRP isn't that high on them either.

sweendogy

@flightnurse‌
"Because people lease cars for business purposes this is why they do get a CPO, the lease rates on them are horrible." Lost me here; new cts-v looks interesting http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2016-cadillac-cts-v-sedan-photos-and-info-news

flightnurse

So the new Chrysler 300 get's a full make over for 2015, not too sure if I like the front end.. But for $46K it's one hell of a bargain.

rbirns1

Looking to buy something for the wife, who drives about 2-3k per year. Current 2003 Passat, bought new, has only 30k miles. She wants to upgrade to luxury. For a low mileage driver, does it make sense to buy a 1 year old car with high miles, then sell as a 4 year old car with normal miles?

m6user

If you can determine if it was used mostly highway and serviced correctly it would make perfect sense IMO.

markcincinnati

How about a brand new Buick (the really tiny one) -- the reviews of it as a teeny weenie luxury car have been positive. That way you can have 100% new everything.

thebean

flightnurse said:

So the new Chrysler 300 get's a full make over for 2015, not too sure if I like the front end.. But for $46K it's one hell of a bargain.

Sarcasm?

stickguy

makes sense to me. a 1 YO with high miles is going to take a major hit. Which is good for you. By the time the miles even out to normal, you might not loose all that much in depreciation.

Just make sure it was not used as a city cab!

sweendogy

I did the same with my s4- was 9 mths old had 14k - at the 2 year mark it will have less then 24k and at 3 years should be around 30. I don't drive. 2/3k a year closer to. 7-8. Part of reason I went used.

billyperks4

So far here is what I like- this is just my personal likes and dislikes-

LIKES
Nice handling car (hugs the road nicely, nice cruiser too)
Sweet sounding turbo when it kicks in
Oversize Moonroof (very nice)
Big 19" wheels (others complain about the RFT but I am okay with them)
DRL'S are nice (looks elegant and not overbearing like some other brands)
Fog Light is independent of headlight
Interior is nice -not flashy but nice (especially at nights with the ambiance lighting)
Door handles lights up
Auto Trunk Opening
Sport Mode is a blast (Sport + is much more of a blast)
Gas mileage is decent- 19-20 around town (I baby it)
Tech is 1st class (so much to learn)
Dark Graphite is nice in the sunlight with the metal flakes (at night it looks black)

DISLIKES
No Auto Trunk Close- available but not on my car
No auto entry (meaning by a simple touch of the door handles the car opens). Its available but not on my car, I had it on the Acura.

Car is living up to what I expected.

flightnurse

billyperks4 said:

DISLIKES
No Auto Trunk Close- available but not on my car
No auto entry (meaning by a simple touch of the door handles the car opens). Its available but not on my car, I had it on the Acura.

Car is living up to what I expected.

WOW even my El Cheapo 320 has this as part of the premium package.

BTW, just had the El Cheap 320 coded, I now have the following:

Sport+ transmission
Power folding side mirrors will open and close when locking and unlocking the car
Fog lights come on with the welcome lights
In motion DVD
Panic Tail light, if hitting the brakes hard, brighter tail lights come on
Key Fob is now coded to open and close all windows and sunroof
turn signal blink 5 times instead of 3
Car unlocks when ignition is turned off

All for $190 and have the file to re install if the dealership updates the firmware on the car. One of the best hacks out there.

Bill if you are interested I can get you in contact with this guy who did this, lots of hidden potential and all it takes is a special cable (the guy will send you the special cable), about 20 minutes of your time and roughly $190.

Michaell

flightnurse said:

billyperks4 said:

DISLIKES
No Auto Trunk Close- available but not on my car
No auto entry (meaning by a simple touch of the door handles the car opens). Its available but not on my car, I had it on the Acura.

Car is living up to what I expected.

WOW even my El Cheapo 320 has this as part of the premium package.

BTW, just had the El Cheap 320 coded, I now have the following:

Sport+ transmission
Power folding side mirrors will open and close when locking and unlocking the car
Fog lights come on with the welcome lights
In motion DVD
Panic Tail light, if hitting the brakes hard, brighter tail lights come on
Key Fob is now coded to open and close all windows and sunroof
turn signal blink 5 times instead of 3
Car unlocks when ignition is turned off

All for $190 and have the file to re install if the dealership updates the firmware on the car. One of the best hacks out there.

Bill if you are interested I can get you in contact with this guy who did this, lots of hidden potential and all it takes is a special cable (the guy will send you the special cable), about 20 minutes of your time and roughly $190.

My local BMW dealer is offering $272/mo on a lease of a 320ix ... $40K MSRP and $2500 down (I suspect some of that is for the acquisition fee, but still...). Lot of car for the money.

Too bad I'm not in the market ...

flightnurse

Michaell said:

My local BMW dealer is offering $272/mo on a lease of a 320ix ... $40K MSRP and $2500 down (I suspect some of that is for the acquisition fee, but still...). Lot of car for the money.

Too bad I'm not in the market ...

I'm sure that is for 10K/yr too, but that $2500 down is steep,

roadburner

I'm trying to keep an open mind, but the only BMWs I could imagine owning are the M235i(w/port-installed locking diff) and the M3/4. Everything else from Munich bores me to tears(and don't get me started on the X5 and X6- I almost fell asleep driving the F16 at its international launch). I only want a manual with RWD, so that means if I stay German I'll be looking at a Cayman S.

sweendogy

I had no idea the "coding" potentials of these cars. Was always aware of "the chip" upgrade that would turn a 1.8 audi/vw engine into a monster- but never the technology to unleash options not paid for from the manufactures. Maybe buying el cheapo is the way to go.

roadburner

It used to be possible to unlock the Mazdaspeed 3 Grand Touring trim level's trip computer on the Sport trim level-it was all done through the audio buttons/knobs-but Mazda got wise and it wasn't possible on later editions.

stickguy

I just saw my SILs next X6. Very sharp. And big. Replaced her 2011 535x.

nyccarguy

roadburner said:

I'm trying to keep an open mind, but the only BMWs I could imagine owning are the M235i(w/port-installed locking diff) and the M3/4. Everything else from Munich bores me to tears(and don't get me started on the X5 and X6- I almost fell asleep driving the F16 at its international launch). I only want a manual with RWD, so that means if I stay German I'll be looking at a Cayman S.

I'm ok with something on the boring side for my daily driver. Point it south down the interstate to get to work, point it north up 3 different parkways to get home. Speed limits ranging from 45 - 55. I've learned to like my 175 hp, 4cyl, AWD, Legacy.

But if I'm paying upwards of $40 - $50K, I definitely don't want boring;)

roadburner

stickguy said:

I just saw my SILs next X6. Very sharp. And big. Replaced her 2011 535x.

I put quite a few miles on a fully loaded X6 xDRIVE50i at the launch. Beautiful interior, totally uninvolving to drive. Sleep-inducing, to be blunt.

roadburner

nyccarguy said:

roadburner said:

I'm trying to keep an open mind, but the only BMWs I could imagine owning are the M235i(w/port-installed locking diff) and the M3/4. Everything else from Munich bores me to tears(and don't get me started on the X5 and X6- I almost fell asleep driving the F16 at its international launch). I only want a manual with RWD, so that means if I stay German I'll be looking at a Cayman S.

I'm ok with something on the boring side for my daily driver. Point it south down the interstate to get to work, point it north up 3 different parkways to get home. Speed limits ranging from 45 - 55. I've learned to like my 175 hp, 4cyl, AWD, Legacy.

But if I'm paying upwards of $40 - $50K, I definitely don't want boring;)

Even my work beater has to be entertaining(hence the tweaked MS3)- and now that I'm 100% off the clock I simply refuse to buy a car that doesn't tick all the right boxes.

Even more disgusting are the near-miss CPO cars that my dealer has taken in, such as a 2013 E90 335i with Dinan engine, exhaust, suspension, and wheels. Of course it's an AWD slushbox...

nyccarguy

The one thing my Legacy has taught me is to appreciate a car for what it is with just some basic options. I don't miss the sunroof as much as I thought & I actually prefer the slick top look. Keeping that in mind, I "built" some ELLPS sedans to my specifications:

BMW 320xi - Metallic Paint, Lighting Package, Driver Assistance Package, & Hot Seats - MSRP: $38,800

BMW328xd - Metallic Paint, Lighting Package, driver assistance pkg, & Harmon Kardon - MSRP: 45,225 (a 328xi gasser has a sticker of exactly $1K less)

Audi S3 Premium Plus - Convenience Pkg, Driver Assistance pkg, B & O Radio - MSRP: $44,650

The MB CLA really isn't my cup of tea.

I know its not fair, but I'd go for a VW GTI "S" with lighting pkg before I even looked at a 320xi. If I'm looking for more performance & entertainment, I could get into a VW Golf R which is basically an S3 with a VW badge for under $40K.

stickguy

I have some sort of golf/GTI on the next car list. Can't wait to look!

billyperks4

Flight- no thanks, I like o keep my cars clean, no modifications- only tints and probably mudguards. I can live with closing the trunk manually.

Roadburner- Driving a F10 is boring- REALLY?