Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

flightnurse

billyperks4 said:

Flight- no thanks, I like o keep my cars clean, no modifications- only tints and probably mudguards. I can live with closing the trunk manually.

Roadburner- Driving a F10 is boring- REALLY?

Just a FYI, coding does not effect warranty at all, it does enhance the whole experience, BTW, you can't code self closing doors.

stickguy

The x6 is just a family truckster. Pretty much a German explorer, so spiritual LTD descendant. I don't expect it to drive like a sports car!

billyperks4

Flight- nothing to do with warranty, I just like to keep things simple.
- I was reading the manual yesterday and came across the different settings- I will get to it someday- only three weeks since owning.

roadburner

billyperks4 said:

Flight- no thanks, I like o keep my cars clean, no modifications- only tints and probably mudguards. I can live with closing the trunk manually.

Roadburner- Driving a F10 is boring- REALLY?

Yes, really. When I first drove an F10 535i the only thought that came to mind was "Old man's car." My wife later got stuck with an F10 loaner; she drove it home, got out and announced "It's nothing but a big soft boat. I HATE it!" The sled sat unused until her car(an E90 328i) was ready to pick up. And most every magazine review agrees with me; numb steering and ponderous handling are noted in virtually every road test.

I find absolutely nothing compelling about the car in any way. You'd have to pay me to drive one.

roadburner

@nyccarguy:

Here is my build sheet for an M235i(and even then I'm still not sure that I'd really fall in love with it):
Alpine White/Coral Red Dakota Leather
Cold Weather Package
Manual Transmission
Moonroof deletion
H/K Premium Sound

Total damage at this point is $45,300, BUT... I still have to add the port installed locking differential- $3,240 last time I checked.That is beyond ludicrous, considering LSD was standard on my MS3 and costs less than $500 on a Miata or a Challenger R/T.

So I'm over $48,500 for a car that is not significantly quicker around a road course than my mildly tweaked MS3(which, with an approximately 13.5 second quarter mile time can hardly be called fast). A Cayman S or Boss 302 looks better all the time...

Michaell

Regarding the cheap 320xi lease here in Colorado.

Assuming that the $2500 is all cap cost reduction, that would add about $64/mo to the payment - total $336/mo before tax ($363 with tax for me @ 7.9%). Still not bad for a car that retails at $40K.

And yes, it is only a 10K per year lease, which wouldn't work for me at all, unless it was a second car for fun and weekend duty only.

graphicguy

My sister looked at the 3 series (320ix and 328ix) before settling on her Mercedes. For the money, the 320ix with just a few options is mighty tempting.....especially with the 4 years maintenance included.

flightnurse

Michaell said:

Regarding the cheap 320xi lease here in Colorado.

Assuming that the $2500 is all cap cost reduction, that would add about $64/mo to the payment - total $336/mo before tax ($363 with tax for me @ 7.9%). Still not bad for a car that retails at $40K.

And yes, it is only a 10K per year lease, which wouldn't work for me at all, unless it was a second car for fun and weekend duty only.

I'm sure it's a 39 month lease too, since Oct, BMWFS has been pushing the 39 months lease.. But someone on Bimmerfest leased a 320ix with Premium Package, Lighting package and Nav, his payments were right about what you quoted of $336/m, and all he put down was about $1100. Deals are out there...

In regards to lease specials BMWFS has sportline as the model in the special lease, a first time for that.

flightnurse

graphicguy said:

My sister looked at the 3 series (320ix and 328ix) before settling on her Mercedes. For the money, the 320ix with just a few options is mighty tempting.....especially with the 4 years maintenance included.

The maintenance plan has changed, with the current plan you only get ONE free service a year, or unless the on board computer says differently. BMW uses synthetic oil and allows BMW to get away with the longer service intervals. The real start of the maintenance plan is the 4yr-50K bumper to bumper warranty., So if you drive aggressively you can go through a set of brakes in the 50K and save yourself about $1200...

When I driving between Phoenix and San Diego the beginning of the year (weekly) I racked up a lot of miles, but the service indicator in the car kept the same date for when the car will need service, but in June I brought the car into the dealer to get the oil changed since I had 13K miles on the car, cost, $110... An expensive lesson... But back in Oct I took the 320 in for it's first free service, they did everything and changed the oil, for free... My service indicator says my next service is due in 1400 miles on 4-15-2015, I currently have 21500 miles on it. So not too sure what to make of the service indicator.. The maintenance plan is nice, but I think BMW needs to shorten the intervals in which they give the free service.

BTW GC, which version of the CTS did you get? Luxury, Performance or Premium?

billyperks4

Road- i guess this is all subjective because I would not give a 328 a second look, not even for my wife. Just personal taste I guess.

roadburner

The 328i was the car she wanted so that was her call. It's certainly no adrenaline rush either- but at least it is possible to determine that the steering wheel is connected to the front wheels. BMW has decided to build the overwhelming majority of its cars to please people who wear their cars rather than drive them- and I'm afraid Munich will find that the people who can't tell which end of the car is driven, or "need" AWD, or think that a V6 is under the hood will prove to be a very fickle bunch of poseurs.

flightnurse

roadburner said:

The 328i was the car she wanted so that was her call. It's certainly no adrenaline rush either- but at least it is possible to determine that the steering wheel is connected to the front wheels. BMW has decided to build the overwhelming majority of its cars to please people who wear their cars rather than drive them- and I'm afraid Munich will find that the people who can't tell which end of the car is driven, or "need" AWD, or think that a V6 is under the hood will prove to be a very fickle bunch of poseurs.

Oh lord, BMW is a car company in which it needs to make money, so they build cars that majority of people would buy. If BMW would go back and build just niche cars they wouldn't be making any money, because people like you Road don't buy enough cars to keep BMW open. Yes, todays 3 series, 5 series are bigger cars, just like the Mazda 6, Camry, A4, and C class are bigger then their last generation.

So does my F30 have the road feel that my E46 330 had NO, so is the F30 a horrible car no. It does what I want it to do, the standard suspension is much firmer then say the Nissan Altima, Camry, Accord and a dozen of other cars and it still drives like a German car. The road feel isn't an issue for me, and why, simple, I don't drive like an A55 all over town, when driven normal I don't have a problem with it. I wanted a M235, until I drove one for 3 days and saw that it is just too small for me, I have grown to like the bigger size of the F30.

Your post calling people who like the newer BMW as a bunch of poseurs is way off base, and really not needed, remember we are all entitled to our own opinion but when you lower yourself in name calling, then the fun of this forum goes out the door,

sweendogy

Name calling never ends well- but like flight says a bmw does need to make money - thus the 320 was born. Its "el cheapo" bmw that plays many of rolls. It's got a bmw badge, it's cheaper then the old standard ultimate driver that came with a 6, it's holds value to get the lease payments lower (thus allowing "poseurs" to "own" one), it's great to put in print that you can lease one for 299 a month, It's also great having "el cheapo" in the showrooms as it brings in customers looking to go cheap then adding 10k in options or moving entirely up in class because that said bmw doesn't have nav or a cup holder. Point is all lux brands are doing this - makes sense given how close the base bmw (or other luxury cars are, around 30k) and how that compares to mainstream auto prices .

roadburner

@flightnurse:

Wow, so an F30 handles better than an Altima, Camry, or Accord. Now THAT is a glowing recommendation! And as for "road feel"[sic] not being a concern? You don't have to drive flat out on the street to understand why it's nice to know the level of grip you have available.
Finally, note that I only said BMW was building cars that pleased poseurs- I didn't call out anyone in this thread; I'm actually surprised anyone rose to the bait.

markcincinnati

sweendogy said:

Name calling never ends well- but like flight says a bmw does need to make money - thus the 320 was born. Its "el cheapo" bmw that plays many of rolls. It's got a bmw badge, it's cheaper then the old standard ultimate driver that came with a 6, it's holds value to get the lease payments lower (thus allowing "poseurs" to "own" one), it's great to put in print that you can lease one for 299 a month, It's also great having "el cheapo" in the showrooms as it brings in customers looking to go cheap then adding 10k in options or moving entirely up in class because that said bmw doesn't have nav or a cup holder. Point is all lux brands are doing this - makes sense given how close the base bmw (or other luxury cars are, around 30k) and how that compares to mainstream auto prices .

~
BMW has not done much, if anything, because it "needs" to make money. It is a for profit company it does everything it does because it must make money -- fine point between needs and must, I know, but I think it is a given that all of these automobile companies are for profit. They were when they made the versions of cars that "used to be" so much better -- if they actually were better then than they are now.

The perspective that I hold currently is that BMW is actually making cars they have evidence their customers want. They have "proof" that their new cars are an improvement over their previous models and their customers affirm that proof. If the customers don't affirm, they make changes to the cars until the cars "succeed."

A key reason for the almost total abandonment of the manual transmission, for example, (by BMW, to name just one) is the customers (BMW is seeking) perceive them to be less desirable than the automatic shifting transmissions available.

Said another way, automatic transmissions are superior to manual transmissions -- according to the market BMW caters to and wants (and needs and must) to sell to. That is an empirical fact -- it is not an opinion (based on the results that can be measured). If you -- the rhetorical you -- believe a manual transmission is superior, that is your opinion. The facts do not support the opinion, or if so, only slightly. Now one may prefer a manual transmission (again this is but one example) over a manual transmission, but that -- from the perspective that BMW values -- is an outlier, an anomaly, virtually irrelevant.

I believe I have suggested previously, that "we" killed manual transmissions -- we killed them by not buying them, not because they weren't or aren't offered; they're not offered because we didn't buy them.

Likewise, 4 and 6 cylinder engines (as another example) replaced 8 cylinder engines because "we" deemed them superior -- and proved thus by buying cars with 6's and 4's. The market proved that there really was a substitute for displacement -- and that was volume-metric efficiency.

I do not believe that ALL new BMW's or Mercedes or Audis or whatever brand you favor are superior to their "ancestors", but the vast majority, the overwhelming majority of them are.

I applaud anyone's affection for nostalgia -- I am often sentimental; the older I get the more I represent that remark, in fact. But nostalgia often -- some would say always -- represents a filtered view of the past. BMW (et al) would almost certainly fail if it attempted to build its new cars to emulate its previous generations, no matter how highly acclaimed or "remembered" they may be.

Auto transmissions, forced induction smaller displacement engines, softer riding suspensions and more and more reliance upon "technology" are good things, superior things, actual improvements over previous generation's offerings and capabilities.

You may not, for whatever reason, agree -- but the market, fundamentally, says you're wrong.

Now, being somewhat (sometimes) of a fellow Luddite, I did (and sometimes still do) mourn the virtual and soon to be total death of the manual transmission. However, now that I have 20,000 miles worth of experience with an Audi 7-speed DSG connected to a super-charged 6, I must finally admit Eli Whitney had a pretty good idea after all.

Dammit!

roadburner

I don't think the enthusiasts are actually clamoring for simply a remanufactured 2002; what they want is a car that continues to embody the traditional BMW virtues- a nimble car that communicates what it is doing to the driver. Cadillac and Lexus are actually moving into that automotive niche while BMW abandons it. Pandering to the status-conscious "wearers" who want a featherbed ride and minimum involvement in the driving process may generate short-term gains, but those folks will move on to the next shiny "in" bauble in a heartbeat.

cdnpinhead

The emphasis on electronic gadgetry and increasingly complex solutions to fairly simple problems (8-speed automatic transmission, anyone) is what leads so many people to dread running these "new and improved" cars bare (past their warranties).

I fail to see why EPA/CARB-driven cars are superior to the incredible variety of vehicles that are available in Europe and elsewhere in the world. Certifying a drive train is so bloody expensive in the U.S. that any given manufacturer limits what's sold here to a bare minimum. If BMW sold any of the small diesel wagons (with a manual) that have been available for decades elsewhere here in the U.S. I'd already be driving one.

Oh, and if anyone thinks run-flat tires, another solution looking for a problem, make any sense out here in the West, I'd be interested in their reasoning. Driving hundreds of miles with only rudimentary services available, particularly on the weekends and/or at night, without a spare tire of any kind, is asking for a three-day delay while the necessary $300 tire is shipped to within 50 miles of where you had a simple flat tire. Then there's the question of whether the tire machine at Ed's Gas, Bait and Whorehouse in Austin, NV, will be able to get it installed without totally wrecking the new tire, the wheel, or both.

It's clear that the majority, as dictated to by various governments, have given us the selection of vehicles that are available. I choose not to participate, and I don't think I'm alone. The majority on here seem to think it's wonderful. Party on.

cdnpinhead

roadburner said:

I'm actually surprised anyone rose to the bait.

I'm not.

markcincinnati

The cars that are sold here in the US at least are here because of the customers, not the government. The governmental rules and regulations do not single out BMW or Cadillac or Fiat. The playing field, so to speak, is level. How a company responds to these regulations is what differentiates it.

Overwhelmingly, the reason the cars from BMW are they way they are is because these cars sell -- if manual transmission diesel Bimmers, etc, were selling, they'd be brought into the US (assuming they are actually manufactured).

In the universe that I am familiar with, I know that Audi of America responded to a LOUD, but very very tiny campaign (that I participated in) to reintroduce the manual transmission to the A6. Audi went ahead and made the A6 manual trans version available to US customers. The cars sat on the lots of understandably pissed dealers who bought the cars for inventory only to have them sit and sit and sit for months and months.

I did go ahead and order the "last" manual transmission (think of the song the "Last DJ") Audi of size in 2003. It was an allroad and I had to special order it because the dealership general manager told me he had been burned by millions tied up in floorplanning manual trans A6's to an unmoved and "I'll take my business elsewhere" market.

The last BMW I drove was a 2014 5 series with a bunch of options including X-drive and all of the stuff BMW deems fit to call "sport" or at least sport-like. The car was quick, fast, quiet, comfortable and for its size cornered like a snake in a rat hole (credit my wife for the phrase).

One of the folks I work with has a 2005 BMW 5 series -- there is no comparison, the 2014 is the more desirable car.

The car is what it is due to the votes cast by the market. We may, or some of us may, deride the newer cars as mere shadows of their ancestors, posers even; but, again, from the perspective of the engineers, marketers, sales people, etc associated with BMW, the new cars are improvements, advancements of the "breed" (or brand, at least).

Yeah, I know, I'm preaching to the:

Use it
Use it up
Wear it out
Do without. . .

crowd.

But, whatever one likes is certainly one's prerogative. I'll defend that too.

cdnpinhead

BMW UK lists 46 variants of the 3-series with gasoline engines and a further 61 in diesel. They don't all represent different drivelines, but at least half do, with different engine size, transmission and AWD options that would each have to be certified separately by the EPA at what I'm told is huge expense. This in a country that is right-hand drive, while the majority of BMW production goes the other way, so don't tell me about economy of scale.

I wouldn't mind ordering the car just the way I wanted it, if I could, but only a handful of the variants are available over here, and none are the ones I'm interested in. I think they've finally got oil level indicators that work, unlike the those that were first introduced to replace the stone-simple dipstick . Apparently one of the reasons was the oil vapor that escaped from the open dipstick tube(?!). Well beyond the point of diminishing returns I would think.

I could change out the solid-rubber-feeling run-flats but there's no point with the vehicle choice that's available here.

markcincinnati

cdnpinhead said:

BMW UK lists 46 variants of the 3-series with gasoline engines and a further 61 in diesel. They don't all represent different drivelines, but at least half do, with different engine size, transmission and AWD options that would each have to be certified separately by the EPA at what I'm told is huge expense. This in a country that is right-hand drive, while the majority of BMW production goes the other way, so don't tell me about economy of scale.

I wouldn't mind ordering the car just the way I wanted it, if I could, but only a handful of the variants are available over here, and none are the ones I'm interested in. I think they've finally got oil level indicators that work, unlike the ones that were first introduced to replace the stone-simple dipstick. I'm told one of the reasons was the oil vapor that escaped from the open dipstick tube. I could change out the solid-rubber-feeling run-flats but there's no point with what's available here.

Wow! That's variety. My question is this: would there be a market for 107 variants of the 3-series in the US? And, that question assumes the cost of marketing to "the market" would have to include certification for the US. My assumption is that the market for 107 variants of the 3-series just isn't there, for if it were, it would seem to make sense that BMW (of America) would go ahead and import (and bear the cost of certification) the "in demand" portion of the range up to 107 variants. Someone, in charge, must have the data to support not doing this -- and by data I mean sales data or market research in support of increased choice.

Of course I said my assumption -- is there any reason to think there IS a [profitable] market for that kind of variety?

While I am at asking [hypothetical] questions, I am wondering why I've never seen an Audi or BMW (or any other brand, perhaps excluding Porsche) with a red leather interior "in inventory"? -- yet it seems that "everyone" says they love red leather interiors. Both my wife and I had to order red leather in our 2014 Audi S cars -- despite the dealer telling us that if they do a dealer trade and end up with a car with red leather that such an outfitted car typically sells more quickly than one with, say, black or gray or brown leather.

I assume the dealer rep was probably patronizing us [regarding red leather] (at least a little bit) but the claim is that white is the single most popular car color and dealer inventories (of Audis and BMWs) do seem to support that notion.

One more question: what does it mean to say something to the effect that such and such a brand of car is "worn" (as opposed to driven, I assume)? I read the comment that new BMWs appeal to customers who want to wear their cars -- suggesting to me that the characterization "worn" was pejorative (at least as far as the author was concerned).

roadburner

As I noted in another topic, in 2007 I wrote an article on the international launch of the E93. I noted that BMW would sell every one they make, even if it had the driving dynamics of a Chevrolet Cobalt. The latest BMWs aren't nearly that bad-yet-but perhaps the tagline "The Ultimate Fashion Accessory" would be a more accurate advertising theme.

stickguy

I actually thought that the 320i, when it was introduced, was what purists were looking for. Simpler, marginally lighter, cheaper. More of the spiritual descendant to the early 2002 and 3 series cars than a massively powered 335. The volume model in the later 90s/early 2000s was likely the 323/325, right?

so if anything, the 320 really is the entry level BMW to allow people that want one to get into "the family", same as the 323/325 did previously. it drives like a BMW, looks and feels like one, etc. So if anything, the purist's problem shouldn't be with the 320, it is the whole series.

roadburner

stickguy said:

I actually thought that the 320i, when it was introduced, was what purists were looking for. Simpler, marginally lighter, cheaper. More of the spiritual descendant to the early 2002 and 3 series cars than a massively powered 335. The volume model in the later 90s/early 2000s was likely the 323/325, right?

so if anything, the 320 really is the entry level BMW to allow people that want one to get into "the family", same as the 323/325 did previously. it drives like a BMW, looks and feels like one, etc. So if anything, the purist's problem shouldn't be with the 320, it is the whole series.

I'd consider a 320i if the steering was decent- I just can't accept a setup that is so devoid of feel- in a BMW, at any rate.

graphicguy

Sorry FN....just saw your question. Spent last week visiting wife's brother in San Francisco.

I got the CTS AWD Performance version. The Magnetic Ride suspension is the real deal. Allegedly, the MRC is capable of infinitely changing the shock settings something like a 1,000 times a second, depending on road conditions. It has its own version of torque vectoring. These "trick" torque vectoring schemes really do improve the handling of these cars (as with the Audi S and TL SH AWD).

It smooths out the roughest roads, yet stays sharp when cornering and rotating. Like most cars in this class, the adjustable suspension is available. I keep it in "Sport", which firms the steering response (best version of electronic steering I've used) and changes shift patterns. Feels much like a RWD based Audi Quattro or TL SH AWD.

Put it in "touring" mode, and it feels much like a 4matic E class or an A6 Quattro.

Sport mode, while "firm" really doesn't describe the ride accurately,

Great seats, while not the sport seats in the TL SH AWD (which I loved), but certainly more "sporty" and comfortable than the hard, flat Mercedes seats. and not nearly as "hard" as the S4's.

Not as speedy as an Audi S4, but quite torquey. Probably 0-60 in the 5 1/2 to 6 second range.....works for me. Probably more torque in the lower rev ranges than the TL....especially around town. It gets up and scoots to extra legal speeds in short order on the highway.

All the gee gaws. It took a few days to get used to CUE. But, now that I am, all the controls for it fall immediately to had once the proximity sensor senses your hand near the screen. Touch controls work. Instead of sliding the "metal bars", you realize those bars are only there to guide your fingers. You slide just above the metal bars.

All the chrome, wood, aluminum, suede, leather, etc is all real. Build and materials are all exemplary and as good, or better than anything in the class.

For reasons that befuddle me (and probably Cadillac, considering the accolades the car has received), the discounts were substantial on the CTS. I got into one for about the price of a middle of the road A4, TL, 3 series.....a screaming bargain, that according to their management, will be the last time those deals will be available for the same car.

Yes, it's new. Yes, I'm enamored with it. Pretty darn happy with a car that's made in Detroit that's able to match, and in some important ways, excel over the E, A6, etc out there.

billyperks4

Graph- Can I ask? Why did you get rid of your TL?

graphicguy

stickguy said:

I actually thought that the 320i, when it was introduced, was what purists were looking for. Simpler, marginally lighter, cheaper. More of the spiritual descendant to the early 2002 and 3 series cars than a massively powered 335. The volume model in the later 90s/early 2000s was likely the 323/325, right?

so if anything, the 320 really is the entry level BMW to allow people that want one to get into "the family", same as the 323/325 did previously. it drives like a BMW, looks and feels like one, etc. So if anything, the purist's problem shouldn't be with the 320, it is the whole series.

RB...you're a track guy. I admire you as your interest in track work isn't just superficial (vs some people I know who trick out their autox cars and like their car's decals more than their cars).

I did some autox years ago (in a Toyota Corolla 16V), but I was mostly a 1/4 mile, dragstrip guy....had my own rat rod for that very purpose.

Some people (including myself) just want a good handling car that can get out of its own way and offers some creature comforts.

The majority want a 3 pointed star, or a roundel. Their car hunt begins and ends there.

stick....I view the 320i to be a spiritual successor to the 2002. Having been in one of the original 2002s (not mine, but a college friend's), they broke the mold. BMW has built on that success. They are where they are today as a result of the 2002's initial success.

circlew

Then there's the question of whether the tire machine at Ed's Gas, Bait and Whorehouse in Austin, NV, will be able to get it installed without totally wrecking the new tire, the wheel, or both.

No question, happened to me on the '06 330xi I leased. Made the station pay for a new rim!

Cost me $250 for the tire and cost him the same! True RFT commerce!

flightnurse

graphicguy said:

stickguy said:

stick....I view the 320i to be a spiritual successor to the 2002. Having been in one of the original 2002s (not mine, but a college friend's), they broke the mold. BMW has built on that success. They are where they are today as a result of the 2002's initial success.

GC BMW wants the M235i to be the 2002 successor, which I don't think it correct, I agree with you though that the 320 is more the successor. getting the 320 with the sport package and Manuel transmission is a great way to get a RWD sports sedan, no other manufacture offers this layout. Many people don't care about leather interior, or power side mirror, you can also code in options that aren't offered on a 320 to enhance the 320.

graphicguy

Billy...I really had no good reason to explain why I got rid of the TL SH AWD. Great cars....all the TL's I've had.

Long and short of it, through a friend of a friend, I met the owner (and his son) of a Caddy dealer that my late Mother did business with. I had relayed the terrible experience my late Mother had with the dealership about 10 years ago (one that I had to get involved with to work it out). He explained that the entire staff had turned over since then, and that he was not aware of my Mother's issues. He invited me to just come in and meet his son, who had just been named the GM of the dealership and to see how they had totally refurbished the physical building.

I'm a car guy. I was curious. Went there. Got a tour of the newly remodelled dealership. Was invited to take a car home over the weekend. Really was enamored with the way the CTS drove and how well it was built. I essentially got a $60K car less $15K+ and, over two years of ownership, I only lost $6K on the TL. Thought it was a good deal.

Rest is history.

sweendogy

@graphicguy - can you go over those numbers again with this trade - / hard to believe you got 15k off a new car and then at the same time were able to trade the TL in for 6k less then paid after 2 years- (did you also get 6k off when buying the TL originally? I have done a few car deals in my day but this tops the cake.

graphicguy

Sween...paid $38 and change for the TL. Caddy dealer gave $32. Figure he'll ask 34, sell for 33.

CTS is a '14....C&D Top 10. Caddy can't sell them. Don't know why. It's as nice of a car as I've ever driven. Caddy slapped a $6K rebate on them. I figure there's another $5K in hidden trunk money. Dealer sells at cost, moves a unit, gets closer to 2014 GM unit bonus.

circlew

CTS is a '14....C&D Top 10. Caddy can't sell them. Don't know why.

And to be fair, the new CTS is priced right in line with the cars that GM sees as its key competitors: the Mercedes-Benz E Class, the BMW 5-Series, and Audi's A6.

But Cadillac's customers aren't used to paying those kinds of prices, and some are shopping elsewhere. Meanwhile, BMW and Mercedes buyers aren't (yet) flocking to Cadillac's showrooms to make up the difference.

In other words, Cadillac is losing its old customers -- but isn't yet winning enough new ones to make up the difference. So, why isn't Cadillac trimming its prices?

Not long ago, a price cut would have been GM's response. But these days, Cadillac is under new management -- and its new president, longtime Audi executive Johan de Nysschen, ordered something different: a big cut in production at the factory that makes the two sedans.

graphicguy

circle....good points. I think Cadillac is going through a transition. Not sure if people are used to paying prices similar to Benz or Audi or BMW. My dealer says he sells every $85K Escalade he can get his hands on....at MSRP plus. Cadillac split their lux sport sedan series in two. What used to be the CTS doing battle against the 3 and 5 series, the C and E class, the Audi A4 and A6, is now the duty of the ATS against the 3, C and A4, with the CTS doing battle against the 5, E, and A6.

CTS moved up the ladder, with the ATS going against the cars we talk about in here.

Their President even admitted this isn't going to happen over night, but will probably take a couple of years.

Cadillac is in a unique situation where they don't seem to care about their "traditional" customer. I don't know if they ever would have snagged me unless the CTS were such a very good car to begin with.

You'll have the customer who bought a previous gen of the CTS and walk into the showroom thinking "no way I'll spend $7K more for the new one over the old one." Cadillac points them in the direction of the ATS and says....here's a better car than your previous CTS and it costs less. Some will get that. Some won't.

However, if you want an even better car than the ATS, here's the CTS.

Again, it will take some time. And, some won't even like the way the new ATS or CTS drive, given they are more on the sports end of the luxury sports sedan/coupe market.

But, once they take hold, I think they have a very good foundation to build on to compete, and excel in both spaces.

They seem determined to do what it takes to get there. Good cars. Drive an ATS or CTS if you get a chance. They are very good sport luxury cars....almost getting to the point where tehy are filling the voids that Mercedes and BMW have abandoned.

carnaught

Graphic, question for you. What are you getting for gas mileage? I realize that this is a minor issue currently while gas/oil prices are at a several year low. To me, in 2015 (well just about), along with style and other features, I just can't hang my hat on cars getting 18-22 mpg unless they're high performance or ultra-luxury vehicles. Like the new Caddy's though except the SRX doesn't do anything for me.

graphicguy

carnaught.....still in break in. Only 4 fillups so far. 1st tank-19MPG. 2nd tank-21MPG...all city. 3rd tank was 24MPG, about 50-50 city/highway.

On my 4th tank, now.

The car computer is fairly accurate. It's about 2-3/10ths off on the conservative side from my manual calculations.

sweendogy

@graphicguy - what year was the TL and how many miles- ? 

graphicguy

sweendogy said:

@graphicguy - what year was the TL and how many miles- ? 

'13 Advance....20K miles.

sweendogy

Ok well I officially call this deal the best of all time'- infact in my region within 250miles there are 6 TLs that are priced higher then your trade in price, all are 2014s with the exception of one 13 that has half the miles you traveled. Add in the ridiculous deal you got on the cts and it adds up to a nice kia.

graphicguy

Thank you Sween. Motivated dealer who wanted to right a wrong and move into the customer service top tier was the key to the deal.

sweendogy

Redic motivated - I hope the cts adds up to a good car for you. 100x better looking then the tL, as we can now agree was an amazingly ugly/ not so much in post surgery - but the early 08/11 wow Really bad. If you can get 6k off the CtS in 2 years please give me a call before you do it- need to see the approach 

graphicguy

sweendogy said:

Redic motivated - I hope the cts adds up to a good car for you. 100x better looking then the tL, as we can now agree was an amazingly ugly/ not so much in post surgery - but the early 08/11 wow Really bad. If you can get 6k off the CtS in 2 years please give me a call before you do it- need to see the approach 

Losing $6K depreciation on the CTS probably isn't in the cards. But, I bought it right. So, it will all even out.

I'm one of the few who actually liked the TL's styling. But, I realize I was in the minority. Good cars, especially for the money.

CTS is a different level of car. The CTS' turbo 2.0L performs better than the TL with the 3.7L 6 cylinder. 50-50 weight distribution which makes for great CTS handling.

In short, it looks better, handles better, performs better, is build better with better materials than my TL. That said, the CTS costs thousands more, too. So, it better be that much better than the TL.

In the honeymoon phase with it. If it stays out of the dealership service dept, I'll be a happy camper.

flightnurse

Here is an article by Road and Track of what they though at the coolest cars of the 80's. One of the cars was the Saab 900, funky doesn't really describe this car, but it was a good handler and a comfortable car.

tlong

I think the reason people aren't buying Caddys is that their traditional demo is dying off and the younger set is seeing the taint of decades of GM mediocrity and reliability issues.

benjaminh

And the new head of Cadillac has the very odd view that fewer sales are somehow better.....???

Michaell

benjaminh said:

And the new head of Cadillac has the very odd view that fewer sales are somehow better.....???

tlong said:

I think the reason people aren't buying Caddys is that their traditional demo is dying off and the younger set is seeing the taint of decades of GM mediocrity and reliability issues.

I know of three folks in these forums who have purchased / leased Cadillacs this year. 1 ATS and 2 CTS (one a V-Sport).

None of them seemed to be frightened of any reliability issues.

robr2

Michaell said:

benjaminh said:

And the new head of Cadillac has the very odd view that fewer sales are somehow better.....???

tlong said:

I think the reason people aren't buying Caddys is that their traditional demo is dying off and the younger set is seeing the taint of decades of GM mediocrity and reliability issues.

I know of three folks in these forums who have purchased / leased Cadillacs this year. 1 ATS and 2 CTS (one a V-Sport).

None of them seemed to be frightened of any reliability issues.

...and I believe that the younger set aren't seeing the taint of their grandpa's Caddy whereas they don't want to drive their father's Mercedes.

As for viewing fewer sales as better - he sees fewer profitable sales as better than low/no profit higher volume.

graphicguy

robr2 said:

Michaell said:

benjaminh said:

And the new head of Cadillac has the very odd view that fewer sales are somehow better.....???

tlong said:

I think the reason people aren't buying Caddys is that their traditional demo is dying off and the younger set is seeing the taint of decades of GM mediocrity and reliability issues.

I know of three folks in these forums who have purchased / leased Cadillacs this year. 1 ATS and 2 CTS (one a V-Sport).

None of them seemed to be frightened of any reliability issues.

...and I believe that the younger set aren't seeing the taint of their grandpa's Caddy whereas they don't want to drive their father's Mercedes.

As for viewing fewer sales as better - he sees fewer profitable sales as better than low/no profit higher volume.

I used to tell my sales staff that high sales volume at low margins does not mean they're good at their jobs. High margins coupled with high volumes were the keys to success.

Getting the margins right for Caddy is going to take a while. In the interim, we're getting some really good deals on some very fine cars.

qbrozen

Michaell said:

None of them seemed to be frightened of any reliability issues.

well, Caddy has really stepped up on peace of mind. 4yr/50k bumper-to-bumper, 4yr/50k included maintenance, and 6yr/70k power train. Is there a better standard coverage offering in the lux market?

ab348

qbrozen said:

Michaell said:

None of them seemed to be frightened of any reliability issues.

well, Caddy has really stepped up on peace of mind. 4yr/50k bumper-to-bumper, 4yr/50k included maintenance, and 6yr/70k power train. Is there a better standard coverage offering in the lux market?

Exactly. All these things are cyclical. Look at the reliability/warranty issues that Audi and BMW seem to experience. I would be shocked if Cadillac wasn't far superior. I tell you, if anyone drives an ATS like mine for any length of time, they are going to be won over. I was out in it today and it is the first time maybe ever that I kept driving around randomly, just for the sake of having fun. What a hot-rod hoot of a machine that thing is! I love it.