Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

benjaminh

Acura's ILX, up until this point, has been almost a joke because of the lackluster 2.0 engine. But the new ILX is going to get standard the direct-injected 2.4 liter with the 8-speed dual clutch transmission with torque converter from the larger TLX. The TLX 2.4 was tested by Motor Trend with a 0-60 time of 7.2. But since the ILX will almost certainly weigh about 500 pounds less, I'm thinking that the new ILX will really be quite a performer for the price. It's expected to start at c. $28k msrp.

graphicguy

flightnurse said:

graphicguy said:

FN...just saw that article last night. Jags have never been on my radar, but that one looks interesting. It will be a while before it gets here, but will at least do a test drive.

GG as I posted by the time it arrives all the other sport sedan will have fixed their short comings to a point, so Jag better have it's game on...

Yeah....that's a lot of time to pass. I hear that BMW is revamping all of their drivetrains in that time. Audi's current A/S/4s are getting long in the tooth (although, one could make a case that at least the S4 is still running with the pack).

I'll at least drive the Jag.

After straying from German and Japanes luxury iron back into the American waters with the CTS, I'm absolutely amazed the amount of performance, technology, robust build, high quality, etc that the Folks at Cadillac have been able to come up with.

As I was talking with another enhtusiast that other day, I mentioned this point. I also noted that perhaps it's not so amazing, given GM's debt was wiped off the books, the crustacean period management was shown the door, and listening more to the customers than the accountants would produce. Clean sheet, with all the engineering talent GM has, we're seeing some pretty nice resuts. My best freind has a new Corvette Sting Rey.....MERCY! Porsche who? While a bit small for my tastes, I test drove an ATS. Now THAT is a fun drive.

Ben....I love me some Acuras. And, while improvements to the ILX sound promising, Acura seems to have transformed into a premium SUV company. I liked the TLX I had the opportunity I test drove. But, the hotly contested $45K-$50K market is strewn with gerat cars that offer some pretty potent entres.

Heck, the wife's Accord EX-L is prett darn nice....as a performer, as a tech car, great build, good materials. We looked at the ILX and couldn't make the case for it given the Accord, all loaded up, was cheaper. One could say that the Accord V6 butts heads with the TLX. I became smitten with the SH AWD version of the TL (and that version was world class). But, even there, Acura didn't move the bar forward from the previous version. At the end of the day, I preferred the TL SH AWD to the TLX SH AWD. That's not a good thing when you're trying to sell your new iron.

flightnurse

GG, for 2016 the 3 series enters it's Mid Life cycle and gets updated, with new engines "B" series engines which are to make more power and be more efficient, better steering and upgrade interior. I hope the new Jag is a home run which makes everybody else do better.

andres3

Yes, Acura has gone backwards in almost every category of measurement with the TLX from the TL.

More negatives and downward trajectories than improvements.

laurasdada

I'm torn: I want to see Jag thrive, but (at least around here) I love not seeing one on every street corner a la 3, C and A4. Or in my case, 5, E and A6. The XF is probably more car/bigger than I need, so I'm intrigued by the XE. Although, I was hoping for styling other than MinimeXF.

But, if the lottery ticket numbers align, I've fallen hard for the MB S Coupe. And, wow, I played in the new Vette at the auto show, wow. I'd love an F-Type, but the Vette is a lot of car for less $$$. Wow.

graphicguy

LD....I think I mentioned that my best friend bought a new Sting Rey convertible. Just an incredible car. His will be a Queen Bee, though. He'll only take it out when it's sunny and warm enough to put the top down. No track. No long trips.

He almost went ballistic on me when he let me drive it and I got a bit.......ummmm....spirited with it.

As I told him,,,,,"you should be ashamed of yourself". He doesn't care. He is the ideal stereotype of a 'vette owner.

Jags are nice. My sister loved her "S" type. She had many years of trouble free driving with it.

She has a Benz now. Can't argue a Mercedes S. I wouldn't mind having one. But, it would probably be the last car I bought. And, I'd have to drive it for 30 more years until they take my license away.

roadburner

A friend of mine just bought a new Stingray with every option save the 8 speed auto. He drove it to our Super Bowl party in the rain. He loves it, but to him it is still a car and he's going to enjoy driving it. He even told me "Once it's broken in you are getting behind the wheel so I can see what it can do."
Bless his heart... I think I've about talked him into taking it to an HPDE at the new NCM course in Bowling Green Kentucky.

graphicguy

RB....my friend went in the opposite direction with his Vette. He got a 1LT (lowest package with Z51 pack and Magnetic Ride Contro. No automatic. No Nav. Pretty much a stripped version (or more stripped than you usually find them).

kyfdx

A friend of mine has a new Z06.. My son got to drive it, which sort of ticks me off...

andres3

The S3 is a pretty solid package if you can live with a dual clutch gearbox and the small sedan which leads to well, a small car with a small trunk.

brian125

I like the S3. Sharp looking but small. The 19' performance pck/ tires look awesome on this vehicle. Wondering what the mpg's are on the 2.0 turbo???

graphicguy

Had a chance to drive an S3 while I was in Indianapolis about a week ago. I usually don't do test drives unless I'm at least contemplating a car, which I'm not. But, as visiting my sister and on the way, with some time to kill, I passed an Audi dealer. Pulled in and saw they had 3 S3s. Dealer plate on and away we went.

Fast car. A little small, but it reminded me of the A4 from probably 5 or 6 model years ago. Having owned the S4, the controls were all familiar. If I could only use one word to describe it? HIGHSTRUNG. If feels like it always wants to race. Suspension dances on the line between harsh and firm but never quite crosses over to harsh. You know it's working.....all the time, though. Seat of the pants performance tells me it's about the same as the S4. DSG was fun. Engine gets on the boil right now.

The good news...the quattro system didn't bind like it did with my S4. It operated seamlessly. The bad news is it reminds me of some of the GM cars from the '90s. "yeah....we can make a suspension that will corner....you'll have to put up with a ride that makes you tired and hurt your butt, but it can be done". The suspesnion of the S3 just wears you out on anything other than glass smooth roads. The S4 would still be the way I'd go, for the better suspension alone, but the S3 would make me think twice given the price difference.

If I had to go German, and I wanted a fast German sports car, I'd probably save myself a lot of money and go with the Audi's younger sibling.....the VW GTI.

Or, step up the ladder and pay all the money and get a 2/335ix.

kyfdx

Can you get it with a stick?

andres3

kyfdx said:

Can you get it with a stick?

You'll have to settle for the Golf R for a stick option. If you ask me, it's a fairly decent bargain since it isn't detuned mechanically. I still think the Audi interior and longer warranty and better customer service is worth at least a few grand, so it's a toss up depending on what you value. From what I've seen, there's better quality control in Ingolstadt than Mexico.

I found the S4 to be stronger "seat of the pants" than the S3 though. 7th gear on the DSG is worth it too.

Now, if they could just re-release the S4 being 300 lbs. lighter it would be perfect.

andres3

I need to ask, what are/were the symptoms of the "binding" Quattro AWD system in your S4? How did you notice it? Did it happen every time? occasionally? Did it worsen over time?

Details please.

Maybe that's what made you not get all the BANG you paid for in the S4, because I'm surprised you felt the S3 just as quick (I know the 0-60 times tend to agree with you), but the S4 is underrated, and did you ever use the "launch control technique" described in the manual?

graphicguy

kyfdx...no stick on the S3 (at least that's what the sales person said). The MSRP on the one I drove, which was fairly loaded up (but you could add even more) was knocking on the $50K door, but you could still add more to it.

You can get a 235ix for that money, which can be had with a manual transmision, handles as well and has a more liveable suspension.

Or, wait a bit and get the ATS-V for what I'll assume will be a simla price and get Magnetic Ride (which is wonderful) and add a healthy dose of style to your performance.

kyfdx

I don't think you can get a stick in a Golf R, either...

nyccarguy

@kyfdx‌

You sure can.

kyfdx

nyccarguy said:

@kyfdx‌

You sure can.

Well ... dang

andres3

That goes for the all-new 2015 Golf R with 292 HP (just like the S3). If you want a stick, you gotta get the 4-door hatch.

sweendogy

Or, wait a bit and get the ATS-V for what I'll assume will be a simla price and get Magnetic Ride (which is wonderful) and add a healthy dose of style to your performance.

@graphic_guy‌

Seem a little sour to the s4/ audi experience - I too would love to see the pricing on this new v. I could never go V because it's rwd- my guess you would have issues too in Ohio winters .- numbers unreal 450/ sub 4 to 60.

I'm a year one and 7k miles on the s4, cst in winter with winter tires - only complaint was service charge of 300 bux which amounted to not much more then oil change.

dino001

I recall Audi used to sell 4-year maintenance package for around $500 (A4 price). With $300 right out of the gate, this would have been a bargain. It was even more attractive with lease as it increased the residual by couple of percent, too. Do they still do that, or did their prices increased?

kyfdx

dino001 said:

I recall Audi used to sell 4-year maintenance package for around $500 (A4 price). With $300 right out of the gate, this would have been a bargain. It was even more attractive with lease as it increased the residual by couple of percent, too. Do they still do that, or did their prices increased?

The price is around $850 for 3 years... On a lease, it adds 1% to the residual, so the actual cost is closer to $400.. Which is pretty cheap for three years of scheduled maintenance.

graphicguy

sweendogy said:

Or, wait a bit and get the ATS-V for what I'll assume will be a simla price and get Magnetic Ride (which is wonderful) and add a healthy dose of style to your performance.

@graphic_guy‌

Seem a little sour to the s4/ audi experience - I too would love to see the pricing on this new v. I could never go V because it's rwd- my guess you would have issues too in Ohio winters .- numbers unreal 450/ sub 4 to 60.

I'm a year one and 7k miles on the s4, cst in winter with winter tires - only complaint was service charge of 300 bux which amounted to not much more then oil change.



Soured on Audi? Probably more than a little truth in that statement. Still, the S3 is something other than a refined piece in my estimation. Personally, I'd skip it for $50K and get the S4 for around the same money. Or, the afore mentioned M235i or the ATS-V. Save a bit and get a GTI or R. Either would be more livable and you'd be able to stuff some green back into your pocket.

Ohio winters really aren't that bad, at least not compared to Boston, Chicago or New York. In the southern part of Ohio, we get a couple of dustings most winters. Every 3rd or 4th year, something more "wintery" happens, but I can live with that.

I have business colleagues who live in and around San Francisco. I tell them all the time, their winters can be difficult to drive in, too. They don't get any snow, but the Bay Area is wet and cold most of the winter. Not fun to drive in because their traffic is so much worse.

I like AWD installed in FWD platforms because it curbs some of the issues inherent in FWD cars. RWD doesn't have any of that. So, slap on some snow tires in the winter (just in case) and I'd be good to go.

roadburner

I have always run winter tires on my wife's BMW. She's had two 3ers and one 5er and we've nevr had any trouble. I run a UHP all season tire on my MS3(currently the Cooper Zeon RS3-A). The only issue is our 1500' gravel driveway- if the snow gets too deep we have to resort to Jeep Mode...

markcincinnati

The loaded S3 I test drove did indeed seem to just cross into the harsh ride category. The interior at freeway legal speeds seemed to show off its lack of sound deadening, too. A drive from Cincinnati to Cleveland would probably be wearying.

The performance was very impressive -- the thing was super willing to be at full cry seemingly in one second. The handling -- this one had the magnetic suspension option -- was confidence inspiring. The transmission was great -- better than any manual, BUT it was the 6-speed version. The 7-speed seems like it would be a better choice due to the addition of another overdriven gear.

The audio system was very good, not knock your socks off good, but premium "enough." That stupid pop up nav screen looks like one of those after market units (from Pioneer) from decades ago. Don't know why Audi chose to do that, when they had the built in look down to a science. But, that is personal preference.

For a change, Porsche now does the integration of the Nav.infotainment system better than Audi. What a world/

At a north of $50K price, the S4 (at least today's S4) seems like a bargain compared to the S3.. Of course a stripped S3 makes a strong performance argument, but, sadly, the premium-ness has been dialed way down. The interior is almost austere -- but perhaps minimalism is the look they were going for.

I would never get a black on black one -- the interior felt like a little teeny weenie cave -- a lighter color would have certainly upped the luxury/premium quotient.

Audi will sell as many of these as they can mint -- I would assume the market for the S3 would have to top out around mid-30;s (age wise). If you can afford an S3, you can afford an S4 and probably even a nicely equipped 3-series (without the i6 engine, however.) You can certainly afford a maxed out A4 SLine -- which wouldn't have the stump pulling torque, but it would have the 8 speed trans a less jittery sport suspension and actually FEEL like a premium car.

I am clearly not the S3 (or A3) target market. Hell, I'm scheming for an S6 -- and hoping for an improved and all new S4 in a year or two from now.

Drive it like YOU live.

brian125

The 2016, S6 gets some minor refreshers/ updates and 30 more horse pw to 450. This vehicle is on my short list also


https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/2016-audi-s6-and-s7-review-153154010.html

benjaminh

Good reviews so far for the 2016 Acura ILX with the 2.4 DI engine (201 hp) and the 8 speed dual clutch transmission with torque converter. Starting msrp: $28k, undercutting the Audi A3 by $2k while getting to 60 more than a second faster....

From Motor Trend:

"Acura lost the 2.0-liter engine and dropped in a 2.4-liter, direct injection, 16-valve four-cylinder engine that creates 201 horsepower and 180 lb-ft of torque. It also introduces the first dual-clutch eight-speed automatic transmission with a torque converter and paddle shifters that seem to always know the right gear at the right time. It launches with aggressive power, and once first gear winds out, it quickly shifts and maintains that torque until you let off the gas. There's a touch of torque steer to pull you to the right under heavy acceleration off the line, but that quickly disappears and leaves you with a compact rocket on the road.

The electric power steering is taut and very linear, snapping back to center with ease. Driving around Napa, California's, winding mountain roads, the ILX kept its line through every corner and never let up. It's smooth but feels quick and allowed me a chance to make my driving partner just a little bit carsick after a few twisty corners. Acura also improved the car's braking, allowing it to remain smooth and quick. For those who want the car to do the driving for you, the ILX offers adaptive cruise control and lane-keep assist. I'm not particularly fond of the lane-keep assist system, because it seems to work even when I didn't want it to, pulling me back to the center of the lane during faster driving, but I should have merely turned it off then. On the highway, it does a nice job of smoothly adjusting the car back to the middle of the lane.

Acura added a number of quieting technologies in the car, including active noise cancelation and additional deadening materials. This was quite noticeable. The car is remarkably quiet, especially considering it's built on the Civic platform, which is not the quietest compact around. A quiet ride remains one of the hallmarks of luxury, and the ILX allows for easy conversations at any speed. The interior improvements are just as noticeable as the exterior ones. There are steps up in the quality of materials, the soft dash, and nicely done stitching throughout the cabin. (The A-Spec model includes aluminum floor pedals and special seat inserts.) There are all of the regular luxury items, such as a moonroof, a clean instrument cluster, and comfortable heated seats. When you sit down in this car, you notice that it's nicely done."

benjaminh

Another review of the 2016 ILX by Left Lane News:

"Cruising along the Silverado trail in Napa, California, gave us a quick taste of the ILX's improvements. From the moment we pushed the red starter button, we could see that Acura had corrected many of the motivational issues that plagued the last car. And to their credit, Acura executives acknowledged as much, when during the presentation about the vehicle's new features, they stated that they had taken many an expert's comments to heart.

In addition to the lack of power, one of the bigger complaints of the previous version was the excessive road noise that made its way into the cabin. The NVH guys got it right this time, utilizing tricks and techniques that made a huge difference that was quantifiable in back-to-back tests.

For 2016, buyers will get a taste of just what 51 extra horsepower and an additional 40 lb-ft of torque are capable of, especially in a car that weighs only 3,100 pounds. We found a compact four-door sedan that offered up just the right amount of torque steer when we launched from a standing start. They didn't post exact times but Acura officials state the ILX gets to 60 mph 2.5-seconds faster than the model it replaces. And that was in the normal drive mode. Switching over to sport mode allowed us to put the paddle shift levers to good use as we blipped our way up through the eight-speed gearbox. Offering a different feel then that found in the normal drive mode, it allowed us to hold our gears as long as we wanted while negotiating the twisties in Northern California's wine country."

sweendogy

Couple of things - first s3 thought some of you would like this mashup http://youtu.be/RPn8MGLtwGY

the other news on the ILX reviews above/ @benjineh how long have you worked for acura ? So it undercuts the a3 in zero to 60 time and price - what a3 are you talking of? the 1.8 fwd or the mainstream 2.0 with quatro- are they really in the same class? I mean we had this arguement before with the Tsx vs the g35, bmw 328 and others but it was nowhere close- remind you that acura has badicay been dead since the integra left us- 

roadburner

sweendogy said:

Couple of things - first s3 thought some of you would like this mashup http://youtu.be/RPn8MGLtwGY

the other news on the ILX reviews above/ @benjineh how long have you worked for acura ? So it undercuts the a3 in zero to 60 time and price - what a3 are you talking of? the 1.8 fwd or the mainstream 2.0 with quatro- are they really in the same class? I mean we had this arguement before with the Tsx vs the g35, bmw 328 and others but it was nowhere close- remind you that acura has badicay been dead since the integra left us- 

The M235i is the only sub-$50k BMW I would put in my driveway. My Audi dealer pretty much soured me on the marque due to the aggravation they caused every time I've tried to deal with them(I didn't want an Audi, but my wife was interested in an A4Q).

By the way, those "experts" in the video should know that-on this side of the pond, anyway- a "Bimmer" is a BMW car and a "Beemer" is a BMW bike...

stickguy

Ben, thanks for that. I saw the piece in MT I think. See, this now sounds like the car I should have waited for. Exactly what my wish list it pretty much. I really liked the interior and size. Upping the speed and driving experience is all that it really needed. and if they kept the price the same, it should be a very good deal.

Actually, it sounds more like the original tsx, which it probably is close in size to. and that car I always loved.

Too bad I already got something. But heck, I'll still stop in to take a look when they finally come out. Plan ahead I always say!

I am sure the comparison was to the FWD 1.8 A3. which makes sense, because they are closest in concept and price. Not really comparable to a 40K 2.0t model.

graphicguy

Read a blurb yesterday stating that Acura is getting ready to bring back turbo 4 cyl motors (which seems to be the price to play in the premium segment). and it's speculated that one will land in the ILX. Wife tried one before settling on the Accord. Tough sell. Small, underpowered, and more expensive than her loaded Accord. Hard to make that fly.

I did like the TLX. But, I didn't like it as well as the TL. So, no go there, too. RLX? Should have saved development money and killed it off. It's barely selling as well as the previous dismal RL. My hope is that there's something Acura is planning (maybe the turbo 4 in the TLX) like a TLX-S because as it stands right now, they're an SUV brand, who happens to throw a few cars in the showroom just in case you need one of those, too.

No secret that Audi just seems to confound their customers...whether it's "Sween's" $300 oil change, or them playing "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" about the problems my S4 had. Troubling enough it was on the dealer level. Worse, the Audi factory team weren't any better. That attitude eventually catches up to you. You'd think their customer service would be a lot better given how they were almost wiped out of existence in the '80s with the hatchet job they got with unintended acceleration.

S3 will sell. Not sure the age group. It gives a lot of performance. But, those it's targeting are raising families. Is it big enough? For $50K is it really nice enough?? Interior was underwhelming, as Mark pointed out. The materials were not what I'd consider worthy of a $35K car, let alone a $50K car. And, it seems to be a German thing, but who was it that decided a stuck on LCD screen sticking up in the middle of the dash was a "new trend"? Somebody in their design dept needs a serious remedial course in aesthetics.

Even if a childless couple ends up liking the S3, not sure it's demeanor will appeal given some alternatives who have sharp handling, and a more sophisticated ride. My money? Stuck in an Audi showroom with no other competitor to be found within 1,000 miles? I'd write the check for the S4 for about the same money. Better car, better interior, better suspension, better transmission, better engine....better all the way around.

BMW? Cadillac? VW? Any of those dealers close? I'd be sticking my checkbook back in my pocket and looking at those over the Audi.

Even Mercedes, which has given up its chase to be a sharp performer, puts out a decent product in the $50K range...C Class. Aside from the silly stick up screen (again), it has a nice interior and makes no apologies that it rides nice, while maybe not offering the last 10th in handling or performance.

Buy, the CLA's suspension is every bit as ragged as the Audi's. Interior is....ummm....interesting. Not nearly as nice as the ATS nor an uber conservative 2 or 3 Series. But, it has a star on the front. So, for many, that's all that's needed.

I liked my Audi...when I drove it off the showroom floor. It became troublesome almost immediately. When the dealer stone walls you (and I'm not the only person who's had that happen in these parts), it makes a frustrating situation unbearable. So long Audi.

Had sterling customer service from BMW, and again with my CTS. Need an oil change? New wipers? Got a little parking lot ding? No problem. Leave it with the dealership, who gladly gives you a loaner to use, only to get your car back later all clean and shiny with everything taken care of.....NO CHARGE!

Geez.....that got long winded. I don't have any catchy sign off phrases (wish I did). Ciao!

henryn

graphicguy said:

I liked my Audi...when I drove it off the showroom floor. It became troublesome almost immediately. When the dealer stone walls you (and I'm not the only person who's had that happen in these parts), it makes a frustrating situation unbearable. So long Audi.

Had sterling customer service from BMW, and again with my CTS. Need an oil change? New wipers? Got a little parking lot ding? No problem. Leave it with the dealership, who gladly gives you a loaner to use, only to get your car back later all clean and shiny with everything taken care of.....NO CHARGE!

The dealership experience makes all of the difference, doesn’t it? When I was younger, I could not understand why anyone would pay the money for a new Cadillac. Then I owned my first Cadillac (not new, but new enough to be under factory warranty). After that, I truly did understand.

I no longer have that kind of money to throw around, but if I did, I would be driving a Cadillac.

roadburner

henryn said:

graphicguy said:

I liked my Audi...when I drove it off the showroom floor. It became troublesome almost immediately. When the dealer stone walls you (and I'm not the only person who's had that happen in these parts), it makes a frustrating situation unbearable. So long Audi.

Had sterling customer service from BMW, and again with my CTS. Need an oil change? New wipers? Got a little parking lot ding? No problem. Leave it with the dealership, who gladly gives you a loaner to use, only to get your car back later all clean and shiny with everything taken care of.....NO CHARGE!

The dealership experience makes all of the difference, doesn’t it? When I was younger, I could not understand why anyone would pay the money for a new Cadillac. Then I owned my first Cadillac (not new, but new enough to be under factory warranty). After that, I truly did understand.

I no longer have that kind of money to throw around, but if I did, I would be driving a Cadillac.

Exactly, my wife is extremely reluctant to buy anything other than a CPO BMW because of the great treatment we receive from both the sales and service departments.

andres3

VW dealerships don't have a stellar reputation. My experience with Audi dealers has been perfectly fine. They should definitely work at dropping the bad apples.

robr2

andres3 said:

VW dealerships don't have a stellar reputation. My experience with Audi dealers has been perfectly fine. They should definitely work at dropping the bad apples.

Now I've had a great relationship with my VW dealer and service department.

henryn

robr2 said:

andres3 said:

VW dealerships don't have a stellar reputation. My experience with Audi dealers has been perfectly fine. They should definitely work at dropping the bad apples.

Now I've had a great relationship with my VW dealer and service department.

I can highly recommend West Houston Volkswagen. Their service department treats you so well, you will swear it's a Cadillac dealership. Archer Volkswagen (also here in Houston), well, you will swear you're at the Ford dealership service department (which is NOT a good thing!).

ab348

Dealer experience seems entirely local and hence quite variable. Last night on the news I saw a report of a Mini owner whose car had a bad engine just out of warranty and who had a very bad experience with her dealer and BMW Canada corporate. The local BMW/Mini dealer (not the one in the TV report) had a very bad rep for customer service but has recently been sold to one of the two local dealer groups, the same one I bought my ATS from, who probably will be better. The former owner's rep couldn't be much worse than what it was.

graphicguy

henryn said:

graphicguy said:

I liked my Audi...when I drove it off the showroom floor. It became troublesome almost immediately. When the dealer stone walls you (and I'm not the only person who's had that happen in these parts), it makes a frustrating situation unbearable. So long Audi.

Had sterling customer service from BMW, and again with my CTS. Need an oil change? New wipers? Got a little parking lot ding? No problem. Leave it with the dealership, who gladly gives you a loaner to use, only to get your car back later all clean and shiny with everything taken care of.....NO CHARGE!

The dealership experience makes all of the difference, doesn’t it? When I was younger, I could not understand why anyone would pay the money for a new Cadillac. Then I owned my first Cadillac (not new, but new enough to be under factory warranty). After that, I truly did understand.

I no longer have that kind of money to throw around, but if I did, I would be driving a Cadillac.

Dealerships go a long way to form the perception of any brand. I've been born beat even by Mercedes dealerships, and I've been treated like gold at Chevy dealerships. At the Cadillac, BMW, Mercedes dealerships, you expect better, though. You expect the sales and service reps to listen and respond to what you want or need. Not to resort to arm twisting to get you to buy or become deaf to your communications when talking about issues with your car.

My BMW, Acura, and now my Cadillac dealer can't do enough to listen and respond to what I communicate. My Audi dealer couldn't do too little in response to the same. Guess which dealerships I'll contact first when I decide to get another vehicle? Pretty easy answer.

benjaminh

sweendogy said:

....the other news on the ILX reviews above/ @benjineh how long have you worked for acura ? So it undercuts the a3 in zero to 60 time and price - what a3 are you talking of? the 1.8 fwd or the mainstream 2.0 with quatro- are they really in the same class? I mean we had this arguement before with the Tsx vs the g35, bmw 328 and others but it was nowhere close- remind you that acura has badicay been dead since the integra left us- 

As you say, I'm comparing the Audi A3 1.8 with the 2016 Acura TLX 2.4.

Car and Driver seems to put the A3 1.8 0-60 at 7.3, while the 2016 TLX C&D puts at 6.2. One second faster is a pretty significant difference.

When these two models are comparably equipped with leather, heated seats, backup camera, etc. I think the Audi goes for about $33k while the TLX goes for about 3k less. The Audi has more prestige and arguably nicer interior design, but the Acura is quite a bit faster and might even have better handling around corners. At least one test of the A3 1.8 that I saw complained about excessive roll and lean around corners. Plus, I think most would agree that for long term reliability an Acura beats an Audi.

Here's what Auto Week says at the end of it's review:

If you’re looking for an entry-level sports sedan, you’ll definitely want to consider the 2016 ILX now. The new drivetrain has done wonders for Acura’s gateway vehicle, giving it adequate muscle to make a stand against the Audi A3 and Mercedes-Benz CLA. The engine is potent and is definitely a throwback to Honda/Acura 4-cylinders of old that once powered vehicles like the Acura Integra and Honda Prelude.

Handling will also remind you a little of the brand’s sportier performers from the past, which should be music to a Honda/Acura fan’s ears.

http://autoweek.com/article/car-reviews/2016-acura-ilx-drive-review

robr2

I have found that to have a great relationship with a dealer's service department, is simply to be nice. Most of my dealings are with the same service adviser at the Honda, VW and Ford dealerships. I go in with a good attitude. If there is a problem with the service work, they know I will come to them personally and not burn them on a survey. I try to be reasonable knowing that they very often have no control over the issue.

Lastly, I write a letter - not an e-mail or facebook post - to the owner principal and the service manager praising the service adviser. Next time I'm in, they fall all over me.

benjaminh

Good thinking lol! Hadn't thought of that. Might try that someday....

markcincinnati

Assuming my comments are not banned: We have two Audi dealerships in Cincinnati. I have dealt with both of them, but purchased every one of our Audis from one dealership -- now called The Audi Connection.

We have two BMW dealerships, too. Purchased three Bimmers from one of them -- The BMW Store -- over the years.

These two dealerships -- the ones that we have purchased from have been wonderful to deal with from a sales perspective AND a service perspective. Out of more than two dozen Audis we have had, we did have one that was problematic (actually the brakes were the issue). Audi of America sent their area representative to help out the situation. As usual, the dealer was helpful in making such a thing happen.

OK, I get it -- your mileage may differ. I agree with whoever said -- get rid of the bad ones (or words to that effect). No mfgr can tolerate even a very small number of crappy dealers. The Internet spreads the tales of woe like a Cancer. I know dealers are often local business people, not mega corporations -- although this is changing, in the era of the $1B dealership "groups."

The dealer can do harm, sometimes great harm to a brand -- and god knows Audi can't afford a sub-par dealer. No mfgr can.

If you need to buy or lease a new Audi and you are within 250 miles of Cincinnati, you can certainly buy one here -- but that probably does you little good with respect to service after the sale. You need a relationship with your dealer somewhat like your relationship with your "barber" (or hair dresser if you don't like the term barber). Of course, if you don't work at the relationship too, it won't pan out favorably, probably.

My Audi service mgr and I have been on a first name basis for perhaps 15 years -- our sales rep, in his mid-80's finally retired; he had been at the dealership since the discovery of dirt. Our new guy only has 12+ years with the dealer, he is so new he's still learning where the restroom is.

The time on the job of the various players at the dealership is a huge clue. If the lot tech guy and your sales rep have about the same tenure, you'd be better off finding out the tenure, overall, of the reps. Ditto the shop people, shop foreman, service manager and service writers. My service adviser has been at the dealership for at least a decade.

The Audi Connection is the poster child for what a dealership should look like. The BMW Store has a similar tenure with its people and the dealer experience is all the better for it.

If you have a bad dealer, I do feel for you -- if you can, get the hell away from them.

sweendogy

Acura- this page and others on edmunds seemed to always be - let's see how good this new acura is- and the Tsx is a comp to others- and the TL is an poor mans s4. but acura for the last 15? Years has not done anything in sedan form. If you want a great Acura sedan (or coupe) get the second gen type2 legend -(6 speed please, google it)  (the square TL /s another) and also the bug eyed integra GS-r.  The last TL, the last Tsx and the first ILX - no good -(all ugly and could not match comp)  the RLX no one buys. The new TLX from reports is nice but nothing special- You can look at zero to sixty numbers and cost of new ILX (for 16) vs its comp but is it really in this class? It's still a civic under the skin and until Acura runs a turbo 4 it's a back burner car at best - Infiniti after gaining so much traction is now nowhere as well- maybe the parents don't care - 

sweendogy

@graphic_guy‌ lets not go gaga over dealerships- used cars and service bring in the big bux. The new car dealer is happy you bought the car and now happy to service it -  Let's see how the next dealer listens and responds to the trade in on the caddy.... Maybe you got a bad dealer and a bad car- but the end game is to make money. 

benjaminh

sweendogy said:

....If you want a great Acura sedan (or coupe) get the second gen type2 legend -(6 speed please, google it) ...You can look at zero to sixty numbers and cost of new ILX (for 16) vs its comp but is it really in this class? It's still a civic under the skin and until Acura runs a turbo 4 it's a back burner car at best....

It happens I'm 50, not that you would have known, and so it's not like I need to google that 6-speed Legend. I admired it back in the day.

In some ways perhaps the Germans are ahead of the 2016 ILX. For instance, the A3 seems to have nicer interior design. And the BWM 320i, of course, is sure to have better handling.

But the Audi A3 under the skin has a lot in common with a $20k VW Golf. That doesn't seem different to me than an ILX having some common bones with a $20k Honda Civic. They take these bones, reinforce them, put new skins on them, put new engines in them, etc. Well, I'm not so sure about the engine for the A3, now that I think about it. Isn't that basically the new standard Golf 1.8 turbo engine? Not sure.

A turbo for the ILX might be nice, but I think the ILX 2.4 is already beating all of its competition with the base engines in terms of 0-60. And the competition isn't really weak, and so that seems plenty powerful enough for the likes of me.

And when it comes to reliability and long term ownership, many would take an Acura over an Audi or MB. If you're just leasing and want the prestige, then the others are probably better choices. But if you're actually buying it for yourself and plan on keeping it, then Lexus, Acura, etc., might have an edge there.

graphicguy

sweendogy said:

@graphic_guy‌ lets not go gaga over dealerships- used cars and service bring in the big bux. The new car dealer is happy you bought the car and now happy to service it -  Let's see how the next dealer listens and responds to the trade in on the caddy.... Maybe you got a bad dealer and a bad car- but the end game is to make money. 

Dealership is the front line of your ownership experience. As the old saying goes..."you only get one chance to make a good first impression".

My wife is a lot more forgiving than I am when it comes to customer service. She's the one who is willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Me? I don't care if it's my real estate agent, my stock broker, my car sales person, or even my landscaper,

Car dealerships (and in turn, car manufacturers) expect me to live up to my commitment when buying a car to pull 10s of thousands of dollars out of my wallet for their product. I expect that they live up to their promise that the car will operate as they said it would. And, if it doesn't, I expect them to make it right without pushback. That last part is where Audi got in trouble.

The dealership Mark is referring to was actually at least moderately helpful, but still unwilling or unable (maybe both) to fix the car. Their Service Manager said the DSG trans and components of the Quattro system needed to be replaced. In a moment of unusual honesty, he said that Audi had a problem with some of the components for the drivetrain that were out of spec. He thought he'd get the green light to do the repair. That authorization never happened. The service manager said at one point that the Regional Audi Rep told him the car was too expensive to fix. Not that it couldn't be fixed, but that he thought it costs too much to fix it. Really? I mean REALLY? Guess what? It was 4X more expensive to buy back and label the car as a corporate buy back.

It wasn't just me with the issues. One of the trade rags I read after they bought mine back, mentioned the same issue. I looked for recalls. Never saw any.

The Audi Customer Service people suggested I take it to the other Audi dealer in town. I have no proof, but I think they looked at it, test drove it, called the Region, got stonwalled and essentially just changed the trans fluid. Clearly, that wasn't the problem as it still existed as I drove it away from their service bay. Took it back to them a 2nd time. Can't remember what they actually did, but it didn't fix the problem.

At that point, Audi had the car for a total of about 6+ weeks. They came back and said lemon law didn't apply because I had the car in for two separate issues. It was the same issue, that needed two fixes....Quattro and DSG. I don't know what they thought....perhaps I was just going to forget about it?

Icing on the cake....called Audi Customer Care (allegedly a Supervisor who had been assigned to my case), who proceeded to tell me the reason none of the local Audi dealerships would service my car, was because I didn't buy it from them. Uhhhhh.....izzatright? That's not what both of the Audi dealers told me. Game on. You're buying the car back, which they ended up doing.

I told Mark's dealer what I thought could have/should have happened. They should have either replaced the trans and Quattro components. Or, they should have just swapped the car for one that worked correctly. Neither was offered....and believe me, I did ask. They wanted me to take a about a $10K hit to swap out the car, though. Yeah....that's really fair!

As far as the Caddy? I'm not expecting the same resale percentage numbers I was used to getting with my Acuras 9which were exemplary). That said, I bought it right ($15K and change dff MSRP). So, I took the good deal up front with getting a great deal instead of on the back end when it comes trade time.

graphicguy

Mark....I think the Audi Connection could be a very good dealership. I think they were hampered by their Regional Rep. Plus, neither them nor the one on Beechmont could come close to the deal I got out of the Chicago Audi Dealership (Westmont). We're not talking about a deal that was a few hundred better....we're talking about a deal that was a few thousands as the delta (I think it was about $3K difference). I gave both the opportunity to get close...even gave them a little working room given I'd save the time to drive to Chicago and back home again. The Chicago dealer bought me dinner and paid for a hotel room near their dealership. I can't even imagine either Cincinnati dealer doing that.

Went to Dayton Audi store, too. They were more like the old "let me get my manager to see if we can make a deal". After waiting 30 minutes for this manager to show up, I left their store. Sales person tried to stall me more, but enough was enough.

BMW Store is good. They never seem to have what I want. They have a pretty rigid set of criteria of cars they order from Stuttgart. They seem to get a lot of base models with base drivetrains. I tend to want the ones with the bigger, better drivetrains, which Sweeney always seems to have. I have a personal relationship with "my guy" at Sweeney BMW, though. He's been there for probably 20+ years. I've bought 3 BMWs from him. Deal is always skinny, and simple. Anything I've ever had go wrong, it's taken care of. No questions, no pushback, no fuss, no muss. No issue is too small for them (nor too large).

We're not so different. We deal with people we trust. I think that's true of most people.

roadburner

robr2 said:

I have found that to have a great relationship with a dealer's service department, is simply to be nice. Most of my dealings are with the same service adviser at the Honda, VW and Ford dealerships. I go in with a good attitude. If there is a problem with the service work, they know I will come to them personally and not burn them on a survey. I try to be reasonable knowing that they very often have no control over the issue.

Lastly, I write a letter - not an e-mail or facebook post - to the owner principal and the service manager praising the service adviser. Next time I'm in, they fall all over me.

That's just about the same policy I follow. My SA at my BMW dealer is also a CCA member and attends HPDEs in his 1998 M3. I've also built a relationship with one SA at my Mazda dealer. I've also written letters of praise to the corporate offices; in 1996 I even received a personal reply from Vic Doolan, who at that time was the President of BMWNA. It's amazing to see what happens when you are courteous and don't treat the dealer as an adversary...