What's with the Q50? people over on the "prices paid" and "lease questions" boards seem to be getting them at substantial discounts (not like @graphicguy & @qbrozen). They seem to be leasing in the $400 - $450 per month range. Cheap for a $50K ELLPS.
When you have a product that isn't selling you tend to have a fire sale. People say that Acura has a problem, look at Infiniti, the QX60 is a rebadged Pathfinder, the QX70 hasn't changed in 6 years, theQX50 (EX) again nothing new there... The Q70 stale...
When you have a product that isn't selling you tend to have a fire sale. People say that Acura has a problem, look at Infiniti, the QX60 is a rebadged Pathfinder, the QX70 hasn't changed in 6 years, theQX50 (EX) again nothing new there... The Q70 stale...
Exactly. They can't sell a lot of what they have in the lineup right now. Odd styling, and not much cachet left with the brand. They just fired their US chief within the last week or two. Infiniti needs to turn it around, fast.
When you have a product that isn't selling you tend to have a fire sale. People say that Acura has a problem, look at Infiniti, the QX60 is a rebadged Pathfinder, the QX70 hasn't changed in 6 years, theQX50 (EX) again nothing new there... The Q70 stale...
Exactly. They can't sell a lot of what they have in the lineup right now. Odd styling, and not much cachet left with the brand. They just fired their US chief within the last week or two. Infiniti needs to turn it around, fast.
The VQ engine is a masterpiece, however, it is a thirsty engine, hopefully Nissan will be able to turn the Infiniti brand around, and they really need to do it quickly...
What's with the Q50? people over on the "prices paid" and "lease questions" boards seem to be getting them at substantial discounts (not like @graphicguy & @qbrozen). They seem to be leasing in the $400 - $450 per month range. Cheap for a $50K ELLPS.
Are they really able to sell Q50's for $50K? Fully loaded with all the bells and whistles???
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
When you have a product that isn't selling you tend to have a fire sale. People say that Acura has a problem, look at Infiniti, the QX60 is a rebadged Pathfinder, the QX70 hasn't changed in 6 years, theQX50 (EX) again nothing new there... The Q70 stale...
Exactly. They can't sell a lot of what they have in the lineup right now. Odd styling, and not much cachet left with the brand. They just fired their US chief within the last week or two. Infiniti needs to turn it around, fast.
Nissan/Infinity needs to fire their stylists; all of their cars(save the 370Z and GT-R) look like they melted in the sun and the SUVs are pretty horrible as well.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
What's with the Q50? people over on the "prices paid" and "lease questions" boards seem to be getting them at substantial discounts (not like @graphicguy & @qbrozen). They seem to be leasing in the $400 - $450 per month range. Cheap for a $50K ELLPS.
Hmmmmm....maybe Infiniti is throwing some support money at their leases?
Exactly. Some loyalty and conquest cash goes a long way.
In November, current lessees were given an extra $2500 incentive to lease.. that generates a lot of repeat sales.. Our 2011 G37X had an MSRP of $42K and a lease payment of $351/mo.+tax.. That's hard to beat.
I have to assume the Q50 has been an underwhelming sales performer -- hence lease subvention to the rescue.
I still see plenty of the Q50's predecessor, the G37X, on the road -- and they have kept the thing alive as a Q40.
I also see plenty of the larger Infinitis on the road -- but the Q50s sit and sit and sit on the dealer's lots.
My wife says they are soul-less machines. I actually like the Q50's styling -- but the engine is basically unchanged from the previous G's and the transmission isn't as good of a partner as you could want and as you certainly expect -- at MSRP. But subvented, well the mo/pay has to make the Q50 attractive.
I always thought of BMW as the German Infiniti -- perhaps the incentives will gin up some greater enthusiasm for the Brand and the model.
Maybe there's something rotten in Hong Kong (or Tokyo); maybe that's why Audi's former US President spent to little time with Infiniti and jumped to Cadillac before the paint in his new Hong Kong office dried.
@kyfdx - ok so you are saying they have great lease value but not to Own the same car which said manufacture is betting they will have decent value at said lease end. Making the $750 a month a bargain over 3 years because you can trade it in for a lot of coin- or if you keep it the extra year and get even more value per month held due to less depreshiayion in said 4th year. I love when people talk leases and think they are getting a great value but don't understand that buying the car could be a better option. Not so much - exactly.
That's why I ask again what are these cars selling for .. ?? Is it really a50k car or is it a 42k car ?
@kyfdx - ok so you are saying they have great lease value but not to Own the same car which said manufacture is betting they will have decent value at said lease end. Making the $750 a month a bargain over 3 years because you can trade it in for a lot of coin- or if you keep it the extra year and get even more value per month held due to less depreshiayion in said 4th year. I love when people talk leases and think they are getting a great value but don't understand that buying the car could be a better option. Not so much - exactly.
That's why I ask again what are these cars selling for .. ?? Is it really a50k car or is it a 42k car ?
I see lots of big discounts on the infinities. I would say the average transaction price is in the low 40s
I see lots of big discounts on the infinities. I would say the average transaction price is in the low 40s
This is pretty sad for a car company that once was nipping at the heals of BMW, Carlos Ghosn has his work cut out for him..
Also in the March Issue of Motortrend Angus MacKenzie wrote a great article about the change in the Big 3 (Ford,GM and Chrysler) MacKinzie talks about how Infiniti needs to do something quick if it want to survive.
@kyfdx - ok so you are saying they have great lease value but not to Own the same car which said manufacture is betting they will have decent value at said lease end. Making the $750 a month a bargain over 3 years because you can trade it in for a lot of coin- or if you keep it the extra year and get even more value per month held due to less depreshiayion in said 4th year. I love when people talk leases and think they are getting a great value but don't understand that buying the car could be a better option. Not so much - exactly.
That's why I ask again what are these cars selling for .. ?? Is it really a50k car or is it a 42k car ?
Yes.. I am saying that they are a great value to lease at $350 compared to the purchase price. So cheap, that you'll be many thousands worse off by buying the car, then selling it after three years.
Infinitis often have great lease programs that aren't in line with their actual resale value. It's the manufacturer's method of heaping big incentives on the car. It's not a general lease vs. buy argument. It's specific to the situation.
It's too bad that Infiniti has had troubles in the sales arena. They used to make some fairly appealing sport-luxury vehicles. Now? Not so much.
Acura went through this 4 years ago. It seems they've righted the ship with the new TLX.
But still, it's a tough row to hoe when you swing and miss with a product redesign.
The fact that they're still selling the previous G series speaks volumes about how the Q 50 is doing. I test drove a Q50 a couple of times. Not sure the objective they were trying to meet, but whatever it was, they missed badly.
A sub-vented lease can be a better deal than buying for many folks.
Years back, Jaguars leased for STUPID numbers (very very low per month) -- the cars were discounted, but not enough to justify NOT leasing. The odd thing is the leases were closed ended which meant there was no risk for the person who leased with respect to residual value.
Here's how they did it (or at least how it was done by some mfgrs):
The lease price of the car is the cost of the use of the car for X months (lets say 24 or 36). To determine the lease, the financial arm went ahead and jacked up the residual value of the car to something IMPOSSIBLE let's say 70% of MSRP. Then they took the 30% of MSRP and divided it by 36 or whatever to come up with a crazy, artificially low (sub-vented) lease price per month. In some cases what they did was purchase an insurance policy to guarantee the 70% or at least some part of the 70%. Then they made the lease have a get out early penalty that pretty much meant you had little choice but to keep the car the full 36 months or you would pay through the nose. In some cases you actually had to keep the car -- you could NOT simply make the remaining payments to get off the hook.
Yet, for those that wanted an $80,000 (pick a car) for $399 per month with no money down, there was simply no way a purchase made any sense.
Now, Infiniti certainly does sub-vent, but not crazy crazy like the above mostly true example. The payment for the use of the car is indeed artificially low, but remember you are paying for the sub-vented cost of use of the car (which is less than you would pay had you purchased the car up front).
Then at the conclusion of the lease there is MAYBE the possibility of getting the car for its real, honest, market value -- not the bloated, made up residual. If the car is good and you can get it at real true market value in month 25 or 37 or whatever, you actually did get a good deal since all you paid for was the rental amount for the past 24 months anyway and it was, er, "rent controlled."
Infiniti's can be a bargain when they are helped along via the finance arm via a sub-venting process. As far as Acura's are concerned, their financial arm hasn't always been a flexible in that regard -- but perhaps it is because they didn't need to with the MDX being the lion's share of their business.
It seems to me the TLX (and I come from a TL and actually liked it) was/is a missed opportunity to de-Honda-ize the brand. At this point, however nice they are, they are, underneath, Prime Hondas. That is not a bad thing, but the thing that I always thought about Infiniti was that they really did attempt to build a car that could rival a BMW. Acuras are still sold as FWD vehicles (a big mistake if you axe me), the Infiniti in question here is, actually, really and truly, a rear wheel drive vehicle that can be had with AWD (very BMW-ish, there).
Moreover, don't go thinking Lexi are much more of an engineering tour de force vis a vis Toyota as Acuras are compared to Hondas.
But, so it seems, the market has spoken and the Infiniti cars are not the leaders of the pack, more like the laggards of the pack -- hence super-sub-venting to the rescue which may move more of them off the lots until a new and improved version can be screwed together for your inspection.
We bought our first car last year a $65,000+ Audi SQ5 -- we put $22,000 down, have a 2.25% APR note on it and it is now showing at being worth about $48K. We still owe $33K on it. We've lost, in my estimation, $7K -- had the thing been offered with a sub-venting finance package on a lease, well, that would have been a no-brainer. We're hoping the plummeting cash value of the car will, in year two, hit the brakes and that maybe we'll have a point in time where the car "feels" like it was a better decision to buy than to lease.
We'll see how it goes.
Meantime who cares what the car's MSRP is? Not most Americans. They, er, WE, only really care about the monthly payment.
When a $50K+ car can be had for $399 per month for the life of its warranty and then simply dropped off with no muss, no fuss, well that hardly seems like a BAD thing. Speaking of sub-venting, Cadillac is doing the same thing with their CTS and ATS and XTS vehicles as we speak.
It's too bad that Infiniti has had troubles in the sales arena. They used to make some fairly appealing sport-luxury vehicles. Now? Not so much.
Acura went through this 4 years ago. It seems they've righted the ship with the new TLX.
But still, it's a tough row to hoe when you swing and miss with a product redesign.
The fact that they're still selling the previous G series speaks volumes about how the Q 50 is doing. I test drove a Q50 a couple of times. Not sure the objective they were trying to meet, but whatever it was, they missed badly.
I think Acura still have problems, their two best sellers are the MDX and RDX, the MDX is long in the tooth and really isn't competitive in the market (but the lease payments are lower then the competition) and the RDX just got another refresh.. I liked Acura better when they had the Legend and Integra.
the MDX was just fully redesigned for 2015 (or was it 2014?). How did that get long in the tooth already? Plus I thought it was selling quite well. The RDX came out for 2013, so this is the normal time for it's mid-cycle refresh.
I wonder what the sales are on the TLX? I don't recall seeing any #s. It is a nice car, and certainly a good value. And $$ speak. I also think the refreshed 2016 ILX is going to help that model immensely. The RLX, however, is a lost cause.
It's too bad that Infiniti has had troubles in the sales arena. They used to make some fairly appealing sport-luxury vehicles. Now? Not so much.
Acura went through this 4 years ago. It seems they've righted the ship with the new TLX.
But still, it's a tough row to hoe when you swing and miss with a product redesign.
The fact that they're still selling the previous G series speaks volumes about how the Q 50 is doing. I test drove a Q50 a couple of times. Not sure the objective they were trying to meet, but whatever it was, they missed badly.
I think Acura still have problems, their two best sellers are the MDX and RDX, the MDX is long in the tooth and really isn't competitive in the market (but the lease payments are lower then the competition) and the RDX just got another refresh.. I liked Acura better when they had the Legend and Integra.
No disagreements with you or Mark. Test driving the Q50, it was like they couldn't make up their mind whether they wanted it to be a sports sedan or a luxury sedan and ended up with neither.
Acura is moving to the soft side like it seems every other alleged ELLSS (with the exception of Audi and Cadillac) is heading....soft. Still, Acura TLX is going to sell 45,000 TLXs in '15. Is there enough of a delta between an Accord and the TLX? Not sure. Drove a TLX. It drives differently from my wife's Accord. Enough to justify the price difference? I still like them. $45K at the tippy top end for a technologically rich, 6 cyl with AWD and torque vectoring rear seems pretty compelling.
the MDX was just fully redesigned for 2015 (or was it 2014?). How did that get long in the tooth already? Plus I thought it was selling quite well. The RDX came out for 2013, so this is the normal time for it's mid-cycle refresh.
I wonder what the sales are on the TLX? I don't recall seeing any #s. It is a nice car, and certainly a good value. And $$ speak. I also think the refreshed 2016 ILX is going to help that model immensely. The RLX, however, is a lost cause.
We drove a MDX and Jeep GC the same day, I liked the ride in the Jeep over the MDX, talk about uninspiring to drive, and the MDX is their best seller... Your right the RDX was new in 2013, but the refresh will make it more competitive then the MDX..
I just saw that the Honda President was either fired or resigned recently due to the airbag recalls, under reporting crash data, and a couple of other things. The article I read said he had navigated Honda/Acura through the Global recession, the tsunami in Japan (where a lot of vehicles were lost and manufacturing facilities were destroyed) as well as some other catastrophies.
I guess this means they don't really care what monumental obstacles you face, deliver to the bottom line or your gone.
Personally, I think Honda got away from what they did best with Acura. That is, be a leader in engineering, performance, design, technology and value in the luxury vertical. RLX (and the RL before that) hasn't been relevant for over a decade. As good as the TL is/was, it was not the most handsome car on the road. The new one is better. Acura really didn't have an answer for the Integra's demise.
By default, they became a luxury SUV company. It seems past those who view an Escalade as having "made it", the MDX is the lux SUV of choice with the upper middle class. I still like their products. Whether it was because they never did recover from the tsunami, they felt their brand would be better served by moving more towards the middle of the market, or whether they lost their desire to lead, they seem to just be missing the mark with their cars. I hope they continue to fire products at the segment because it's hard to find cars that are as well built, drive so nicely, are as bulletproof reliable, and are good values as my Acuras were. Unfortunately, that's not enough these days.
I remember late '90s/early '00s, I thought of Acura as an aspirational brand, out of my price range at the time but something I might consider later on when I could afford one. Now they are not on my radar nor are they in any way appealing.
I just saw a blurb last night that I think came from CR. Now, aside from appliances and lawn mowers, for which I seek out their ratings, for cars I don't use them all that much.
That said, they made a point that they liked the Buick Regal GS as a better luxury sports sedan than they do a BMW 328i. Pretty big leap there. But it does show how the American brands are roaring back into the Luxury/Sport arena.
I mentioned in another thread that the IS350 F Sport would have been on my radar before I pulled the trigger on the CTS. I was at the auto show locally last weekend and found the Lexus to feel a bit claustrophobic. The GS350 F Sport was much more to my liking.
So, I guess I'm moving away from the ELLPS vertical onto the next step.
I remember late '90s/early '00s, I thought of Acura as an aspirational brand, out of my price range at the time but something I might consider later on when I could afford one. Now they are not on my radar nor are they in any way appealing.
Aside from the NSX I never gave Acura the slightest bit of consideration; when I'm spending $35k or more FWD cars and FWD biased AWD cars simply aren't on my radar.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I just saw a blurb last night that I think came from CR. Now, aside from appliances and lawn mowers, for which I seek out their ratings, for cars I don't use them all that much.
That said, they made a point that they liked the Buick Regal GS as a better luxury sports sedan than they do a BMW 328i. Pretty big leap there. But it does show how the American brands are roaring back into the Luxury/Sport arena.
I mentioned in another thread that the IS350 F Sport would have been on my radar before I pulled the trigger on the CTS. I was at the auto show locally last weekend and found the Lexus to feel a bit claustrophobic. The GS350 F Sport was much more to my liking.
So, I guess I'm moving away from the ELLPS vertical onto the next step.
I haven't driven a GS, but to say it's a more engaging drive than an F30 328i is kind of damning with faint praise...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I remember late '90s/early '00s, I thought of Acura as an aspirational brand, out of my price range at the time but something I might consider later on when I could afford one. Now they are not on my radar nor are they in any way appealing.
Aside from the NSX I never gave Acura the slightest bit of consideration; when I'm spending $35k or more FWD cars and FWD biased AWD cars simply aren't on my radar.
I did notice a better feel from the S4's 60/40 RWD emphasis with the AWD system, that does make it feel better and more RWD-like. On the TL-SH-AWD it felt FWD and when you gassed it, you could feel, AND see even graphically on the screen how it shifted some torque rearward, but most of it always started out in front.
Just one more reason why I felt the S4 was worth the extra dough.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I would say the best reason to get rid of the TL was its awful looks- people can talk about how close it was to the s4 but in actuality it wasn't - ugly fat and boring - no way to go thu life.
Sweenydog, I am going to price out the lease on the Q next week. I'd have to add the mileage hit up front since the cheap lease is for 10K miles/yr and I drive 15K.
I get people not liking the styling of the TL. Personally, I did like it. I thought it was bold and unique, which suited me fine.
I've owned both the S4 and the TL SH AWD. TL SH AWD is mighty close to the Audi. No, the TL wasn't as fast as the S4, but it was every bit as adept in the handling dept and was very confidence inspiring to drive. It matched the S4 in the feature category. Service costs on the TL vs the S4 were miniscule in comparison. MPG was certainly better on the TL vs the S4, too. And, for the money I paid (under $40K) for the TL SH AWD Advance it offered huge value.
Don't get me wrong, I liked my S4. Didn't like the reliability (lack thereof) of the S4 and didn't like the MPG, nor the maintenance costs, either.
I did like my TL SH-AWD Advance. I thought it was ugly, and the interior looked like a Honda that knew somebody. The air conditioned seats were great. The power was good, nothing to scare an S4. The brakes were very weak. The doors sounded tinny when closed. It was a beer to the Audi's champagne. Yet, much as most folks would never cross shop these two, it was Honda's bargain basement S4.
I have to assume the new TL is an improvement. Mine, a 2012, had way too much FWD feel (torque steer), something the S4 doesn't have.
I don't have the S's sport diff (torque vectoring rear diff), wish I did, but I would assume if I did, I'd love this thing even more.
This car and my wife's SQ5 have become our favorite Audis and our favorite cars -- and we've had dozens -- of all time. I want to say nothing even comes close -- but our BMW's have been close (and even a couple VW's were a blast to drive, but still none are the performers of these S's.) I used to think they (Audi S cars) were too expensive, but compared to 3-series, well it seems these Audis are "within reach" of most folks who shop and buy the cars discussed on this forum.
If you "can't see" or "don't share" our (my wife's and mine, i.e.) passion for the Audi S's, I would say the TL or TLX SH-AWD with anything that increases the performance/handling ticked off on the option list, is not a bad alternative (if you can get past the styling and the Honda content.) But, for the money, the Acura may be attractive to you because it will almost certainly stay south of $50K..
If you can't stomach the TLX's looks and the Audi leaves you wondering what I see in them, well, the C class Mercedes, too, looks like it is worth a second look -- and I've always had a soft spot for the Volvo S60 type R.
An observation: many who write here about their cars make remarks like "my TL gave me 6 trouble free years." My irreverent side almost always reads, "my TL gave me 6 [bland, boring, unremarkable, invisible] trouble free years." If I remarked to my wife that she has given me 20 plus years of trouble free cohabitation," she'd have every right to punch me in the nose.
I want 6 trouble free years, too, but I think I'd take 3 spectacular driving experience years instead.
That's why I always say: Drive it like YOU live. Life's too short to not have at least some trouble!
Some may recall that when I wanted to go ahead and get a 2014 Lexus IS350F with every option box ticked off (in metallic white with red leather), my wife said, "we tried the Infiniti and the Acura, it just seems that they ain't got no soul . . . " We test drive cars and seek out new restaurants as damn near professions as any hobbies could ever be -- so when it came time to drop the Acura and Infiniti, we seriously went into test driving as THE weekend event for a few months.
Here is what we noticed: Audi, BMW, Porsche and (to a lesser extent) Mercedes owners participate in "clubs," attend driving schools, take road trips en masse, make trips to Germany to visit the Holy Land (the factories where their cars are made) and spend a fair amount of their disposable incomes on logo'd shirts, coats, key-fobs, ball caps, wrist watches, wine glasses, beer mugs and other branded memorabillia. Acura, Infiniti and Lexus owners? Not so much.
So, maybe my wife was onto something -- data points suggest the above mentioned Germans attract buyers and have owners who are passionate (they have soul perhaps?) about their favorite car brands. Other than some key fobs and a narrow selection of ball caps, only the local Infiniti dealer even had a Branded Boutique of items touting their owners love of their brand's cars.
The BMW store, in Cincinnati, offers free car washes -- so what you say? Well, arrive at the BMW store bright and early on a Saturday morning and you will see a line of BMW's, perhaps 20 cars deep, waiting to be hand washed -- sometimes the wait is hours. The customers park their cars, take a claim ticket from the attendant and gladly walk up to the service center's lounge where there is free Starbuck's coffee, all kinds of beverages and snacks and even portable DVD players and headphones with a choice of movies. Often the folks chat about their adventures in their X5's or the pleasure they had picking up their cars in Spartanburg and driving back to Cincinnait. Some folks regale others about their European delivery pick up in Munich and the fun they had driving on the autobahn.
Sitting in the Acura waiting area didn't even come close -- and there was no waiting room at the Infiniti dealer.
Somehow, the Germans seemed to have cracked the marketing code to imbue their cars, dealerships and, most importantly, their customers with passion -- soul -- for their fantastic creations.
As the sign at the BMW dealer reminds: "Don't Forget to Breathe!"
Me? I'm heading over to the quattro cafe to check out what's in the fridge and what's playing on the big screen TV. God, I'm such a geek.
Mark, when it comes to cars, for me, my all time favorite care was my Alfa GT-V6, it was a poor mans Ferrari.. Talk about soul!!
Rick and I were at the BMW dealer this week, we are starting the European Delivery (ED) of his 3289 GT, while we were there a gentlemen was there taking a redeliver of his M6 Grand Coupe which he did the ED, it was great listening to his stories. Mark, you are right you don't hear that at the Acura or Infiniti Dealers.
BTW, Rick's 328 GT will be a 2016 and we are shooting for a July 16th delivery at the Welt.
Mark, when it comes to cars, for me, my all time favorite care was my Alfa GT-V6, it was a poor mans Ferrari.. Talk about soul!!
Nice! I'm a bit of an Alfa guy and that is one I've always admired, but I was too late to the party and finding a nice one is damned near impossible. I've run across a couple in the past decade, but never at a time I could do anything about it.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Mark, when it comes to cars, for me, my all time favorite care was my Alfa GT-V6, it was a poor mans Ferrari.. Talk about soul!!
Rick and I were at the BMW dealer this week, we are starting the European Delivery (ED) of his 3289 GT, while we were there a gentlemen was there taking a redeliver of his M6 Grand Coupe which he did the ED, it was great listening to his stories. Mark, you are right you don't hear that at the Acura or Infiniti Dealers.
BTW, Rick's 328 GT will be a 2016 and we are shooting for a July 16th delivery at the Welt.
Have you ever been to Munich? If not, I can offer up a couple of restaurant recommendations that are equal to or better than restaurants in New York, Paris, London, Prague and Warsaw. If you're going to stay in country for more than a few days, I can also suggest a couple of relatively close destinations that are breathtakingly beautiful.
If you want to spend some time in your new BMW on the autobahn while heading toward one of the best little towns on the planet, I urge you to drive about 45-60 minutes south of Munich to Garmisch-Partenkirchen, spend the night in the magnificent Hotel Reindl Partenkirchner Hof -- make absolutely sure you make dinner reservations at the hotel's restaurant, or risk being turned away -- the meal at this restaurant is worth planning, scheming and dreaming for.
The next day you can take the ski-lift up (and in July the view will be spectacular) where the 1936 winter Olympics were held. Then you can take another even more breathtaking cable car ride up the Zugspitze where you can have lunch and walk from Germany to Austria as the border cuts through the mountain. If you have time -- and I would urge you to make time -- you can drive your new BMW to Füssen and visit Neuschwanstein Castle.
After that day you can either drive back to Garmisch or motor on into Innsbruck, Austria or back to Munich.
If you want some restaurant recommendations in Munich, let me know.
Have fun -- that's another thing Germans know how to do so well.
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2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
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OK cars, but I could never imagine spending close to 50K on it. Heck, I can get a nice low mile 2013 MB E class for 35K!
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2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
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I still see plenty of the Q50's predecessor, the G37X, on the road -- and they have kept the thing alive as a Q40.
I also see plenty of the larger Infinitis on the road -- but the Q50s sit and sit and sit on the dealer's lots.
My wife says they are soul-less machines. I actually like the Q50's styling -- but the engine is basically unchanged from the previous G's and the transmission isn't as good of a partner as you could want and as you certainly expect -- at MSRP. But subvented, well the mo/pay has to make the Q50 attractive.
I always thought of BMW as the German Infiniti -- perhaps the incentives will gin up some greater enthusiasm for the Brand and the model.
Maybe there's something rotten in Hong Kong (or Tokyo); maybe that's why Audi's former US President spent to little time with Infiniti and jumped to Cadillac before the paint in his new Hong Kong office dried.
Because, $350/mo is super cheap to drive a car like that... $750/mo to purchase it? Not so much..
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That's why I ask again what are these cars selling for .. ?? Is it really a50k car or is it a 42k car ?
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Also in the March Issue of Motortrend Angus MacKenzie wrote a great article about the change in the Big 3 (Ford,GM and Chrysler) MacKinzie talks about how Infiniti needs to do something quick if it want to survive.
Infinitis often have great lease programs that aren't in line with their actual resale value. It's the manufacturer's method of heaping big incentives on the car. It's not a general lease vs. buy argument. It's specific to the situation.
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Acura went through this 4 years ago. It seems they've righted the ship with the new TLX.
But still, it's a tough row to hoe when you swing and miss with a product redesign.
The fact that they're still selling the previous G series speaks volumes about how the Q 50 is doing. I test drove a Q50 a couple of times. Not sure the objective they were trying to meet, but whatever it was, they missed badly.
Years back, Jaguars leased for STUPID numbers (very very low per month) -- the cars were discounted, but not enough to justify NOT leasing. The odd thing is the leases were closed ended which meant there was no risk for the person who leased with respect to residual value.
Here's how they did it (or at least how it was done by some mfgrs):
The lease price of the car is the cost of the use of the car for X months (lets say 24 or 36). To determine the lease, the financial arm went ahead and jacked up the residual value of the car to something IMPOSSIBLE let's say 70% of MSRP. Then they took the 30% of MSRP and divided it by 36 or whatever to come up with a crazy, artificially low (sub-vented) lease price per month. In some cases what they did was purchase an insurance policy to guarantee the 70% or at least some part of the 70%. Then they made the lease have a get out early penalty that pretty much meant you had little choice but to keep the car the full 36 months or you would pay through the nose. In some cases you actually had to keep the car -- you could NOT simply make the remaining payments to get off the hook.
Yet, for those that wanted an $80,000 (pick a car) for $399 per month with no money down, there was simply no way a purchase made any sense.
Now, Infiniti certainly does sub-vent, but not crazy crazy like the above mostly true example. The payment for the use of the car is indeed artificially low, but remember you are paying for the sub-vented cost of use of the car (which is less than you would pay had you purchased the car up front).
Then at the conclusion of the lease there is MAYBE the possibility of getting the car for its real, honest, market value -- not the bloated, made up residual. If the car is good and you can get it at real true market value in month 25 or 37 or whatever, you actually did get a good deal since all you paid for was the rental amount for the past 24 months anyway and it was, er, "rent controlled."
Infiniti's can be a bargain when they are helped along via the finance arm via a sub-venting process. As far as Acura's are concerned, their financial arm hasn't always been a flexible in that regard -- but perhaps it is because they didn't need to with the MDX being the lion's share of their business.
It seems to me the TLX (and I come from a TL and actually liked it) was/is a missed opportunity to de-Honda-ize the brand. At this point, however nice they are, they are, underneath, Prime Hondas. That is not a bad thing, but the thing that I always thought about Infiniti was that they really did attempt to build a car that could rival a BMW. Acuras are still sold as FWD vehicles (a big mistake if you axe me), the Infiniti in question here is, actually, really and truly, a rear wheel drive vehicle that can be had with AWD (very BMW-ish, there).
Moreover, don't go thinking Lexi are much more of an engineering tour de force vis a vis Toyota as Acuras are compared to Hondas.
But, so it seems, the market has spoken and the Infiniti cars are not the leaders of the pack, more like the laggards of the pack -- hence super-sub-venting to the rescue which may move more of them off the lots until a new and improved version can be screwed together for your inspection.
We bought our first car last year a $65,000+ Audi SQ5 -- we put $22,000 down, have a 2.25% APR note on it and it is now showing at being worth about $48K. We still owe $33K on it. We've lost, in my estimation, $7K -- had the thing been offered with a sub-venting finance package on a lease, well, that would have been a no-brainer. We're hoping the plummeting cash value of the car will, in year two, hit the brakes and that maybe we'll have a point in time where the car "feels" like it was a better decision to buy than to lease.
We'll see how it goes.
Meantime who cares what the car's MSRP is? Not most Americans. They, er, WE, only really care about the monthly payment.
When a $50K+ car can be had for $399 per month for the life of its warranty and then simply dropped off with no muss, no fuss, well that hardly seems like a BAD thing. Speaking of sub-venting, Cadillac is doing the same thing with their CTS and ATS and XTS vehicles as we speak.
I wonder what the sales are on the TLX? I don't recall seeing any #s. It is a nice car, and certainly a good value. And $$ speak. I also think the refreshed 2016 ILX is going to help that model immensely. The RLX, however, is a lost cause.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Acura is moving to the soft side like it seems every other alleged ELLSS (with the exception of Audi and Cadillac) is heading....soft. Still, Acura TLX is going to sell 45,000 TLXs in '15. Is there enough of a delta between an Accord and the TLX? Not sure. Drove a TLX. It drives differently from my wife's Accord. Enough to justify the price difference? I still like them. $45K at the tippy top end for a technologically rich, 6 cyl with AWD and torque vectoring rear seems pretty compelling.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
I guess this means they don't really care what monumental obstacles you face, deliver to the bottom line or your gone.
Personally, I think Honda got away from what they did best with Acura. That is, be a leader in engineering, performance, design, technology and value in the luxury vertical. RLX (and the RL before that) hasn't been relevant for over a decade. As good as the TL is/was, it was not the most handsome car on the road. The new one is better. Acura really didn't have an answer for the Integra's demise.
By default, they became a luxury SUV company. It seems past those who view an Escalade as having "made it", the MDX is the lux SUV of choice with the upper middle class. I still like their products. Whether it was because they never did recover from the tsunami, they felt their brand would be better served by moving more towards the middle of the market, or whether they lost their desire to lead, they seem to just be missing the mark with their cars. I hope they continue to fire products at the segment because it's hard to find cars that are as well built, drive so nicely, are as bulletproof reliable, and are good values as my Acuras were. Unfortunately, that's not enough these days.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
That said, they made a point that they liked the Buick Regal GS as a better luxury sports sedan than they do a BMW 328i. Pretty big leap there. But it does show how the American brands are roaring back into the Luxury/Sport arena.
I mentioned in another thread that the IS350 F Sport would have been on my radar before I pulled the trigger on the CTS. I was at the auto show locally last weekend and found the Lexus to feel a bit claustrophobic. The GS350 F Sport was much more to my liking.
So, I guess I'm moving away from the ELLPS vertical onto the next step.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
If not, maybe there's something there. If so, I guess it's best among the available appliances.
Need I ask if it's available with a manual transmission? Didn't think so.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
My case and done
Just one more reason why I felt the S4 was worth the extra dough.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
I've owned both the S4 and the TL SH AWD. TL SH AWD is mighty close to the Audi. No, the TL wasn't as fast as the S4, but it was every bit as adept in the handling dept and was very confidence inspiring to drive. It matched the S4 in the feature category. Service costs on the TL vs the S4 were miniscule in comparison. MPG was certainly better on the TL vs the S4, too. And, for the money I paid (under $40K) for the TL SH AWD Advance it offered huge value.
Don't get me wrong, I liked my S4. Didn't like the reliability (lack thereof) of the S4 and didn't like the MPG, nor the maintenance costs, either.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I have to assume the new TL is an improvement. Mine, a 2012, had way too much FWD feel (torque steer), something the S4 doesn't have.
I don't have the S's sport diff (torque vectoring rear diff), wish I did, but I would assume if I did, I'd love this thing even more.
This car and my wife's SQ5 have become our favorite Audis and our favorite cars -- and we've had dozens -- of all time. I want to say nothing even comes close -- but our BMW's have been close (and even a couple VW's were a blast to drive, but still none are the performers of these S's.) I used to think they (Audi S cars) were too expensive, but compared to 3-series, well it seems these Audis are "within reach" of most folks who shop and buy the cars discussed on this forum.
If you "can't see" or "don't share" our (my wife's and mine, i.e.) passion for the Audi S's, I would say the TL or TLX SH-AWD with anything that increases the performance/handling ticked off on the option list, is not a bad alternative (if you can get past the styling and the Honda content.) But, for the money, the Acura may be attractive to you because it will almost certainly stay south of $50K..
If you can't stomach the TLX's looks and the Audi leaves you wondering what I see in them, well, the C class Mercedes, too, looks like it is worth a second look -- and I've always had a soft spot for the Volvo S60 type R.
An observation: many who write here about their cars make remarks like "my TL gave me 6 trouble free years." My irreverent side almost always reads, "my TL gave me 6 [bland, boring, unremarkable, invisible] trouble free years." If I remarked to my wife that she has given me 20 plus years of trouble free cohabitation," she'd have every right to punch me in the nose.
I want 6 trouble free years, too, but I think I'd take 3 spectacular driving experience years instead.
That's why I always say: Drive it like YOU live. Life's too short to not have at least some trouble!
Here is what we noticed: Audi, BMW, Porsche and (to a lesser extent) Mercedes owners participate in "clubs," attend driving schools, take road trips en masse, make trips to Germany to visit the Holy Land (the factories where their cars are made) and spend a fair amount of their disposable incomes on logo'd shirts, coats, key-fobs, ball caps, wrist watches, wine glasses, beer mugs and other branded memorabillia. Acura, Infiniti and Lexus owners? Not so much.
So, maybe my wife was onto something -- data points suggest the above mentioned Germans attract buyers and have owners who are passionate (they have soul perhaps?) about their favorite car brands. Other than some key fobs and a narrow selection of ball caps, only the local Infiniti dealer even had a Branded Boutique of items touting their owners love of their brand's cars.
The BMW store, in Cincinnati, offers free car washes -- so what you say? Well, arrive at the BMW store bright and early on a Saturday morning and you will see a line of BMW's, perhaps 20 cars deep, waiting to be hand washed -- sometimes the wait is hours. The customers park their cars, take a claim ticket from the attendant and gladly walk up to the service center's lounge where there is free Starbuck's coffee, all kinds of beverages and snacks and even portable DVD players and headphones with a choice of movies. Often the folks chat about their adventures in their X5's or the pleasure they had picking up their cars in Spartanburg and driving back to Cincinnait. Some folks regale others about their European delivery pick up in Munich and the fun they had driving on the autobahn.
Sitting in the Acura waiting area didn't even come close -- and there was no waiting room at the Infiniti dealer.
Somehow, the Germans seemed to have cracked the marketing code to imbue their cars, dealerships and, most importantly, their customers with passion -- soul -- for their fantastic creations.
As the sign at the BMW dealer reminds: "Don't Forget to Breathe!"
Me? I'm heading over to the quattro cafe to check out what's in the fridge and what's playing on the big screen TV. God, I'm such a geek.
Rick and I were at the BMW dealer this week, we are starting the European Delivery (ED) of his 3289 GT, while we were there a gentlemen was there taking a redeliver of his M6 Grand Coupe which he did the ED, it was great listening to his stories. Mark, you are right you don't hear that at the Acura or Infiniti Dealers.
BTW, Rick's 328 GT will be a 2016 and we are shooting for a July 16th delivery at the Welt.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
If you want to spend some time in your new BMW on the autobahn while heading toward one of the best little towns on the planet, I urge you to drive about 45-60 minutes south of Munich to Garmisch-Partenkirchen, spend the night in the magnificent Hotel Reindl Partenkirchner Hof -- make absolutely sure you make dinner reservations at the hotel's restaurant, or risk being turned away -- the meal at this restaurant is worth planning, scheming and dreaming for.
The next day you can take the ski-lift up (and in July the view will be spectacular) where the 1936 winter Olympics were held. Then you can take another even more breathtaking cable car ride up the Zugspitze where you can have lunch and walk from Germany to Austria as the border cuts through the mountain. If you have time -- and I would urge you to make time -- you can drive your new BMW to Füssen and visit Neuschwanstein Castle.
After that day you can either drive back to Garmisch or motor on into Innsbruck, Austria or back to Munich.
If you want some restaurant recommendations in Munich, let me know.
Have fun -- that's another thing Germans know how to do so well.