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2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
White and gloss black are often the only two "free" paint colors offered by European mfgrs. My wife pulled the trigger on a $1,075 paint color called Panther Black -- yes it is purty, but that just seems like way too much for what appears BLACK from a distance of over 10 feet.
I used to special order Pearl White on all my Audis. Then, one year, the price jumped from $500 to $2,500 and Pearl White became a member of the Special Order collection that Audi offers to anyone who will pony up the money. It is called Audi exclusive -- hell yes it is exclusive, because anything you order -- ANYTHING -- starts at $2,500 -- why? Because they can.
In 2009, I wanted the Ecru (Cardamom) interior color and it only came with blonde wood -- I thought the contrast wasn't there, I wanted the burl walnut wood inlays. At that time, $2,000. Despite the fact that I had custom ordered the A4 Pretige with most every option listed, I just couldn't bring myself to pay $2K for something that was no charge had I not wanted the Cardamom leather. Next year blonde was dropped in favor of the dark walnut.
Much as I favor an almost the sky's the limit, I just can't see something like I have just described as anything other than an option from our "shameless profit collection."
BMW seems to charge breathtaking prices for wheels that aren't part of the two or three "normal" choices offered -- I know there are certainly differences that justify higher costs, but there was an X6 on the showroom floor with a $5,000 wheel package (tires were another upcharge).
I know a lot of options are outrageously priced, but at least it would seem they kind of bury the charge so that the price gouging isn't obvious.
Now I'll show my ignorance -- the last time I priced an Infiniti, their color palate was "included" in the MSRP base. This included both pearl and just clearcoat colors.
I'm the guy who would probably pay MORE for the basic car if all the paint choices were "included" -- it just galls me to see $1,075 for an admittedly pretty black color. It is good that I actually prefer white, cause were they to start charging extra for gloss white, I'm sure I'd scream "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore!"
Sheesh!
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Me: "Since when does Mom like White cars?"
Dad: "Since Porsche charges $800 for anything else that's not black or white. And she didn't want black."
Me: "You are kidding me? She does realize this is a $60K truck and that the $800 is really nothing."
Dad: "You want me to argue with your Mother?"
Me: "Good call. White is very pretty."
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
BMW has what is called, "Individual" where basically you custom build your BMW 5,6 ot 7 series cars. If you have a favorite color and send to Munich a sample, for 5K your new BMW will be painted that color. bmwusa.com/standard/content/innovations/bmwindividual/default.aspx There are only area's in which you can customer build build your BMW, it is a process in which I would love to do just once, my 5 series would be the old Porsche Guards Red. MB has the Designo mbusa.com/mercedes/benz/design/designo it's basically the same thing..
Mark you are correct, they do it because they can and there is a market for it if there wasn't they the manufactures wouldn't be offering it.
Not sure if they're still offering leases that are heavily subsidized or not. But, GM learned that lesson long ago. You can't subsidize forever.
Don't get me wrong. I like BMWs. But, when a 335ix tipped the $60K+ scale equipped the way I like, and the 235i came in close behind, I could see that the threshold had been exceeded.
There are a lot of really good cars (as good or better than BMWs) at price points that are much less.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
"There are a lot of really good cars (as good or better than BMWs) at price points that are much less"
Which???
Furthermore, my issue with most of these cars -- but the Germans top the list of offenders -- rears its head because I typically select the top option package and then add individual options on top of that.
A base (good luck finding one) Audi S4 is hard to beat -- but I wouldn't have one unless it had, navigation, B&O sound system, blind spot monitoring . . . and the list goes on. There is no way the technology we (or I) love, voice-activated navigation + bluetooth, etc, is worth $3,500. Hell, I can buy a 75" Samsung HDTV for about $500 less than that, and that price is dropping 2% per month.
So, yeah, there are very good cars at attractive price points -- we can argue if this or that is BETTER than a BMW or an Audi or a Mercedes, etc, but there are a lot of comparable cars IF POPULARLY equipped. My car has almost $10,000 worth of options on it, and I didn't even get a Prestige model.
The base fill in the blank German fill in the blank is likely to drive, perform and ride better than the "other guy" -- but the heck of it is, the German car will be a strippie and the other guy will come chock full of features that just seem out of touch with even a generous gross margin.
Now, having said that, I will prove myself a walking and driving contradiction. I do, to this very day, believe that the Acura TLX SH-AWD with the Advance package (and ONLY that configuration) is Acura's S4. And, it is really damn near impossible to find one that rings up a $50,000 tab. Yet, if you drive the two cars, back to back, well there is that certain something (that my wife calls soul) that the Acura doesn't even seem to attempt to imitate. But the TLX's numbers are, for the bucks, impressive.
So, I complain about the price of the S4 vs the TLX (which makes a good case for itself as being in the same league), but I still put down the extra $6K-$12K for the Audi BECAUSE I test drove it.
We have met the enemy . . you know the rest.
And, in terms of the utilization and circumstances of use by the majority of consumers (again for mere mortals), AWD no longer needs to have any apologies made for it or by it, other than to say, "excuse me" as the AWD version passes the RWD or FWD version. Ask Porsche, to name one, what cars they market are AWD -- the low performance or high performance variants?
I can appreciate RWD and manual transmissions -- but they're not, for the buyers that keep these ELLPS car mfgs alive and well, where the "performance" buyers gravitate towards.
The reasons are well documented and even if I did think RWD and manual transmissions were any more than an entry in the bibliography of a glitzy brochure (if brochures actually had bibliographies), the shoppers, buyers and actual consumers believe and behave differently (based on their spending, at least); that is auto trans cars rule and AWD is in very widespread use, often in the cars touted as THE highest performance versions.
The sooner we start recognizing that these companies that build the machines we covet probably don't care one way or another what wheels are driven and how the thing is shifted, the better, because they care overwhelmingly what will facilitate the goals of corporate survival, growth and prosperity. I would assume if BMW thought it could overwhelm Audi by building and selling FWD cars exclusively with manual transmissions, I would assume they would do so.
A dead purist is still dead, after all. Companies are no different -- the auto transmission has or is close to defeating stick shifts; turbo or super or both engines of 4 or 6 cylinders are replacing displacement based engines as each day passes and AWD cars or at least the option to add AWD is well on its way toward total market dominance.
I like being alive -- but, in my case at least, I actually think auto trans AWD vehicles are the best most of us mere mortals can get today. So I think I am a purist, just one who thinks RWD (or FWD) and stick shifts are so 1980.
It is funny. You and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to options. I think cars are really expensive to begin with. So I choose my options carefully. If I'm going for a BMW, then its going to have the lighting package, backup camera, heated seats, AWD, & a slush box. That's it. My former E90 328xi was loaded up with options that didn't really add that much to the driving experience. Sure the leather seats were really nice & the sunroof let light into its black interior. The Navigation got me 95% of the way to my destination.
Now I definitely like the way sport package equipped cars drive and look. Nowadays they are really expensive option packages that come with low profile, run flat tires that can get expensive, especially around here.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Even something like a Mustang GT or Camaro SS are tough to find in a manual trans. They're a bit more plentiful, but you have to search some to locale them.
I think most of the trade rags give the nod to the Cadillac ATS when it comes to 3 Series, A4 etc comparisons. I've driven an ATS, several times. They are a very fun car to drive that can rock and roll with anything in its price range. Good looking and built well with great materials, too.
I agree with Mark....on the upper end of the ELLPS range, probably the S4 could arguably be preferred over the others. Audi, at least in my exeperience (and some others here at Edmunds) aren't exactly the poster children for reliability, nor are they reasonably budget friendly to keep and operate. Still, can't argue its performance.
Acura TL SH AWD Advance? Boy....I would have a hard time justifying $50K-$60K for a 3xx ix or A/S4, C300/400 4 Matic if I were looking for a level of performance, comfort, build quality, cheap to own and operate for what I paid for mine ($38K and change). I don't have enough seat time in the TLX SH AWD to really render a judgement. But, for $45K list for the advance package, the same applies to it.
If it weren't just a wee bit tight for my tastes, I would have had a Lexus is350 F sport gracing the GG estate right now. It's a lot like the Acura TL. It doesn't lead in one category, but is really good in ALL categories. At the time, I could have plucked one up, fairly loaded for $46-$47K, too. It's design could be polarizing, too. But again, being the "odd ball" I am, likeing the TL's previous design, I liked the Lexus' design, too.
I understand people being polarized by the styling. But, no one can deny their trouble free nature, longevity, sport sedan handling and frugality when it comes to operation and maintenance. They are a LOT of car for that kind of money.
So, are their better cars out there than the 3 Series? From my perspective, yes....lots of them. My reasons may be different than yours, though. You start loading one up to knock on the $60K+ door, and that list grows dramatically.
Our sometimes heated discussions about the merits of manual transmissions vs. automatics or about RWD, FWD, AWD, etc. are – or will pretty soon be – irrelevant. These discussions may be entertaining, they may even be cathartic, but there is plenty of evidence of the inevitability of semi-autonomous and ultimately autonomous cars.
With google, Apple and many others you’ve never even heard of working on technologies whose purpose it is to remove you from the driving equation, it is a matter of years – perhaps so few we could discuss the time frame in months (you know like a 60 month car-loan term) – before we essentially have “individual” mass transportation. By that I mean we’ll have individual containers (cars) that, as far as you’re concerned, provide you with about the same experience you have as when riding a bus, limo or train. You’ll have the flexibility that a private car offers and you’ll be, for the most part, nothing more than a passenger.
It probably doesn’t even matter if you want this technology or not, it’s coming. It’s coming pretty quickly too. Insurance and many other private companies, federal, state and local governments want it. You’ve (or perhaps, better said, “we’ve”) proven we’re not capable, or perhaps it is just that we’re not willing to prevent the inevitable. Just this morning, coming into work, I passed a driver of a late model Mercedes S class – the driver was on the phone! There is no way this Mercedes doesn’t come standard with hands-free, eyes-free, voice activated Bluetooth connectivity and control; yet, there was this bozo with one hand on the road, in rush-hour traffic, with the phone held up to his ear. Now, how does that make me make the leap to autonomous cars?
Well, as I am willing to say, I am often wrong, but never uncertain, we might simply mandate built in jammers that prevent cell phone usage in a moving car. But, think about it, what we really want is for the driver to not use a hand-held phone while driving. We probably don’t want to prohibit passengers from using a cell phone. Even my Audi offers in-car Wi-Fi, so it seems that we’re moving in the direction of greater, not restricted, connectivity. So what do “we” do? Rather than taking away the ability for the driver to use a hand-held phone, we’ll just go ahead and take away the ability to drive the car altogether because we have demonstrated that distracted driving is sometimes actually worse than drunk driving – and if you bother to look, you’ll find there are a lot of drivers using hand-held phones. This is all the more frustrating (for me at least) since I know that an ever increasing number of cars have Bluetooth as standard equipment.
Inevitable? Yes. While growing up, my parent’s cars never had seatbelts – in 1963 my dad bought a brand new Chrysler Newport. It did not come with seatbelts. The dealer, however, did put them in the car (2 in the front seat only). I never knew if this was in response to a government mandate or if it was part of a promotion. As time passed we graduated to cars that came with 3 seatbelts in the front (unless you had bucket seats), then rear seatbelts, then shoulder belts then seatbelt interlocks that essentially attempted to force seatbelt use as the cars would not start unless the seatbelts were fastened (leading to folks fastening their seatbelts, then sitting on them, therefore defeating the purpose.)
We can, in the name of safety, list all of the inevitable features that have been added since 1963 – actually, we could have another list of all of the features added in the name of safety before 1963. These two lists, with descriptions, would fill volumes.
These days, any manufacturer who wants to, can crank out a 300HP motor and put it in a lightweight body. And they can do so for what is (for someone my age) an almost unbelievably low price. Even 350HP, 400HP or 500HP are pretty much within the engineering talents of just about any name brand auto manufacturer. Likewise, 6,7,8,9 and 10 speed automatics, some with dual clutches and torque converters (in the same transmission) further multiply many car’s accelerative capabilities sometimes stretching the limits of the short-attention span humans we’ve seen increasing on the planet at an alarming rate. When 0-60MPH can happen in less than 6 seconds and when, at 60MPH, you’re overtaking anything not moving at a rate of 88 feet per second, it’s no wonder untrained and distracted drivers crash and burn.
The response? Intervention. Police intervention? Sure, but often that is after it is too late. What is, apparently, better is for the car to intervene on the driver’s behalf. First came four-wheel brakes, eventually disc brakes, then anti-locking brakes, then electronic stability programs, then radar/sonar pre-sense systems, cameras and more cameras, lane warning systems, lane keeping systems, systems meant to keep you awake, systems that can bring a car to a full-stop and maintain assured clear distances at highway speeds approaching triple digits. Then there are the slow speed crash avoidance systems, pedestrian safe-keeping systems, night vision systems, automatic mirrors and automatically deployed headlight beams that dim whenever approaching traffic is detected. Infiniti, despite much negative press, even disconnected the steering wheel from the steered wheels altogether as they designed – perhaps intentionally, who knows – a semi-autonomous car, the Q50. Google has demonstrated their autonomous driving handiwork, too, in a Mercedes S-class; and recently an Audi A7 (or so it appeared to be) navigated, at speed, the Nürburgring. Look ma, no hands!
Recently, I have, with humorous intent, invoked the quote from Pogo, “We’ve met the enemy and he is us.” Now, without mirth, I re-invoke the saying and once again, I blame you (all of us, really) for not learning how to drive, not learning safety and performance driving. I blame us, as a culture, as a species, for not making the requirements for getting an automobile driving license perhaps nearly as rigorous as the requirements to get a private airplane pilot’s license.
If we all had to know how to drive defensively – and prove it – we could, perhaps, forestall the inevitable autonomous automobiles currently picking up speed in the pipeline to a retailer near you. Yes, forestall, not prevent, because eventually, even great education won’t be enough, great engineering will prove inadequate and “traffic law” enforcement will always remain mostly an after-the-fact activity rather than robust preventative measures.
I – alone at my house, anyway – pretty much welcome autonomous cars, because driving on our I-275 with the apparently ignorant [great] majority of the population (and I include myself) is just too much Sturm und Drang (Storm and Stress). I have this wonderful 333HP sporty sedan and I drive it mostly in stop and go traffic, bumper-to-bumper (no matter how hard I try to maintain one car length for every 10MPH) and at about 47MPH (or less, truth be told). The hell of it is, I live in Cincinnati – have you ever been here? This place is barely a city for pity’s sake; it is so small, so relatively sparsely populated. I can only imagine the frustration of having an S4 in Chicago or Boston or Dallas. Hell yes, gimmie a car that I can program to my destination, push or say “engage,” meanwhile I work on my iPad mini catching up on my [State Department] emails and other mi·nu·ti·ae: The small, precise, or trivial details of something.
At least if I’m in my car, not having fun driving it, I can be in my car not having fun but at least being somewhat productive.
“Oh, what a world! What a world! Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness? Oooh, look out! I'm going! Oooh!”–The Wicked Witch of the West
"Now, having said that, I will prove myself a walking and driving contradiction. I do, to this very day, believe that the Acura TLX SH-AWD with the Advance package (and ONLY that configuration) is Acura's S4. And, it is really damn near impossible to find one that rings up a $50,000 tab. Yet, if you drive the two cars, back to back, well there is that certain something (that my wife calls soul) that the Acura doesn't even seem to attempt to imitate. But the TLX's numbers are, for the bucks, impressive...."
I think Acuras and Hondas do have souls. Their engines are beautiful examples of engineering that purr and like to run fast. These engines imho almost sing as you drive them. I've never owned an Audi or BMW, but I've ridden in them. And they are certainly wonderful cars too. They just have different souls.
Soichiro Honda was a very talented engineer, and I think his "soul," if you want to talk in those terms, is still part of Honda/Acura. It's a company whose CEOs are still always engineers, unlike Toyota/Lexus, or some other companies, where the CEOs often come from the financial side. We'll just need to agree to disagree, which is fine.
I did, mostly, enjoy my 2012 TL (most especially the audio system -- I still have the DVD-Audio discs), were I to even attempt to characterize what I could articulate differentiated the TL vs the S4, it would start with a sense that the Acura seemed "flimsy," most notable when closing the doors. The Audi closes with a muted, solid whomph! sound, no clicking or other mechanical noises, the door closing almost seems hydraulic it is so smooth so "of a billet of solid steel" invoking. The Acura on the other hand, sounded a bit like an empty tin can being dropped from about 5 feet onto asphalt. The very comfortable, heated and ventilated seats, in the Acura also had a bit of "play" or give in them somewhat like a table at a bar that needs a folded pack of matches put under one of the legs to keep it from wobbling. I don't know if I would call the Acura's feel something as negative as "OK fit and finish," perhaps I would simply call it "less solid" feeling than the Audis (or BMWs) we've had.
If that equates to soul (my wife's term, remember), well there you have it. Please remember I am not saying I think the Acura is not a good car, a very high value car, a fully-featured car with lots of impressive technology. I also thought the SH-AWD with the 19" wheel tire package made the TL elicit a sense of deja vu -- like it was, somehow, related or at least relate-able to an S4.
I, at age 63, now think life's too short (for me, at least) to drive an Acura TL or TLX when there are cars like the S4 on the market.
But, if you read my previous post, in probably doesn't matter since most cars will be nearly autonomous before the note on your new car is paid off.
A little more low end grunt and it will have an immortal one- "soul" that is.
When people talk about the car in the past being better, this reminds me of when my EX and I had a couple of classic cars, he had a 57 Continental Mark II (Please do not call it a Lincoln Continental) and I had a 70 Olds 442 Convertible W30 and a 70 Mustang 302. The Olds was the classic A body car. Yes, it was fast but not really THAT fast, the Mustang was quick, faster then the Olds, but not as fast or quick or quick as cars in the late 90's, and lets talk comfort, the Olds was an Auto, the Mustang was a stick, the clutch on the stang was SOOOO stiff it was rough to drive it around town or smooth. The Continental rode like it was on clouds, smooth and elegant, but trying to stop 2.5 tons of car with drum brakes, was a feat... Even the Olds and stang had disk brakes up front they still didn't stop all that well. So when I hear people talk about the good ole days of cars and how good they are, I just laugh.. Give me a 335i with sport package, a car that is faster, smooth, handles better and is suited for the long haul over the older muscle cars. Even the 2015 Stang GT is faster, and is a lot more comfortable to drive and handles so much better..
But there is something to be said about putting the top down in a big block muscle car and cruising the beach.
Again, I must regrettably say it is, as each day passes, just a little bit more irrelevant as we all know, since robots started stealing my luggage.
"Damn your eyes [Igor]!"
Simplicity rules in my world and makes it, well, simpler. Certainly not so posh, but it works nearly every time.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I wouldn't mind driving the new ILX, just to see how it compares in handling to the old TSX. It's certainly faster, it seems.
On the A3, moving up to the 2.0T gets you Quattro, instead of FWD.
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The new ILX interests me as well but I'm thinking the S60 will be in the driveway next week.
Now, that's just one instance, but if it happened to me, I would have a hard time buying a new car with basically the same engine. But, he really loved that G35... so...
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Wife is 5'9" tall. She looked at the ILX before buying her Accord. She said it felt cramped. She looked at the Q50, too. She liked it. At the time, it was selling for high $40s equipeed the way she wanted. I think the Q is selling about $5K less today.
ILX with a better motor and trans would be appealing to anyone who doesn't need a lot of room.
Actually, the TLX would be the perfect size for my wife. Price is right, too.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Seems kind of stupid to me. It's like a lobbed a bomb at Infiniti and then left for greener pastures...
Also, small SUV - they have those but don't seem to sell many. Kind of cute but not an Audi Q5 or even an RDX. They should get something more competitive out there.