Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

stickguy

$45 now? Damned, I got left behind by entry level now? I would have gone with $35K base (before the crazy options). Maybe 40k "all in"

My list? A3 2.0/A4 base, Volvo S60, Acura TLX, BMW 320i/328, Infiniti (Q50? they lost me with their model names), maybe a VW GLI loaded up, lexus IS, Benz CLA (C class still qualify with the new model?), Caddy ATS, Buick regal turbo.

qbrozen

funny how we have this discussion seemingly every 6 mos or so.

dino001

And it always is the same - majority of voices have "fantasy land" assumptions, from wrong pricing to features, mostly due to lack of recognition in market changes. So from one side saying that $70K+ M3 is an "Entry Level" , to another being completely in denial on how much prices rose in last 20 years ($40K "all in" won't even buy you sport suspension on some of those "performance sedans"). Then somebody else says A3 is not "good enough" for the luxury part of the definition. Classic eat the cake and have it, too.

As I wrote before, to me ELLPS doesn't exists anymore. Its original purveyors (3-series, A4, C-class) moved on to chase higher sales volumes from people with thicker wallets, their imitators moved into those leftover niches, but with their own philosophies and the category was stretched and fragmented.

Basically, any given version of those original brand cars has to lose one of the letters. Their true sports luxury versions are no longer entry level, as they cost easily over $50K, sometimes even $60K, their "entry sports" versions lack some features found in $15K Kia or Hyundai, which makes one wonder about the luxury part. The market fragmented into too many sections and subsections for that category to be distinct. Anything that size now can fit.

The closest model to true ELLPS in last 10 years, IMHO, was probably Infiniti G50, especially in its first couple of generations. The engine and suspension made it "performance", pricing made it "entry level", standard leather and other stuff made it luxury. I'm not saying it was the best car for the money, but I think it was closest to the definition of that category.

billyperks4

"Infiniti G50"

Do they sell this in the here- USA?

dino001

Not anymore. Hence the past tense.

Michaell

dino001 said:

Not anymore. Hence the past tense.

The G35/37 have been rebadged as the Q40. Still available at your local Infiniti dealer.

dino001

Now I see my mistake, at last. It was supposed to be G35/37, not G50. Sorry for the mixup. So, I meant to say G35 in its first and second generation were closest to ELLPS in their nature in last 10-15 years. BTW, I new about the rebadging to Q40, but formally G37 it is no longer with us.

dino001

How do you remove a mistaken post completely? I had this one posted on a wrong forum, didn't know how to take it out, so I edited it into this question.

Michaell

dino001 said:

How do you remove a mistaken post completely? I had this one posted on a wrong forum, didn't know how to take it out, so I edited it into this question.

You have 4 hours .. use the gear icon.

roadburner

dino001 said:

And it always is the same - majority of voices have "fantasy land" assumptions, from wrong pricing to features, mostly due to lack of recognition in market changes. So from one side saying that $70K+ M3 is an "Entry Level" , to another being completely in denial on how much prices rose in last 20 years ($40K "all in" won't even buy you sport suspension on some of those "performance sedans"). Then somebody else says A3 is not "good enough" for the luxury part of the definition. Classic eat the cake and have it, too.

As I wrote before, to me ELLPS doesn't exists anymore. Its original purveyors (3-series, A4, C-class) moved on to chase higher sales volumes from people with thicker wallets, their imitators moved into those leftover niches, but with their own philosophies and the category was stretched and fragmented.

Basically, any given version of those original brand cars has to lose one of the letters. Their true sports luxury versions are no longer entry level, as they cost easily over $50K, sometimes even $60K, their "entry sports" versions lack some features found in $15K Kia or Hyundai, which makes one wonder about the luxury part. The market fragmented into too many sections and subsections for that category to be distinct. Anything that size now can fit.

The closest model to true ELLPS in last 10 years, IMHO, was probably Infiniti G50, especially in its first couple of generations. The engine and suspension made it "performance", pricing made it "entry level", standard leather and other stuff made it luxury. I'm not saying it was the best car for the money, but I think it was closest to the definition of that category.

Funny thing about BMWs move upscale; my dealer has a 2011 335i manual SP that I''m considering. I pulled up the Car and Driver test of that car and compared it to their test of an M235i manual. The E90 sedan is three inches longer and weighs only 24 pounds more. The E90 also has a bit better F/R weight distribution- 51/49 as opposed to 52/48 for the F22. Standing start and in-gear acceleration times are virtually identical(and adequately quick). The M235i holds a slight edge in steady state cornering and braking, which I'm virtually certain is due to the E90 wearing Bridgestone Potenza RE050A I RFTs and the F22 being fitted with "go flat" Michelin Pilot Super Sports- I can vouch for the Michelins; I run 225/45-18 PSS on my Mazdaspeed 3 as my summer/track tire and I always run out of courage before I run out of grip.
It's interesting how much difference a few years makes with respect to perception...

dino001

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

How do you remove a mistaken post completely? I had this one posted on a wrong forum, didn't know how to take it out, so I edited it into this question.

You have 4 hours .. use the gear icon.

But the Gear icon only shows me "Edit", I can't see any "remove" option.

Michaell

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

How do you remove a mistaken post completely? I had this one posted on a wrong forum, didn't know how to take it out, so I edited it into this question.

You have 4 hours .. use the gear icon.

But the Gear icon only shows me "Edit", I can't see any "remove" option.

Hmm, guess only us moderators can delete posts. You can edit the content and replace it with "delete" or "null" as I've seen others do.

dino001

I tried no content, it won't let me. I guess if I write "null", it will.

laurasdada

Tough to define this sector, definition could be quite broad. I imagine one would have to parse each manufacturer to determine which model is their "entry level." And, then is it luxury and performance DNA? For example, in my distant outpost in the universe known as "Jaguar," I drive the current entry level Jag, the XF. Is it entry level by definition here? Well, if E, 5, and A6 variants are, then yes. IMHO, it certainly has luxury and performance, but is never mentioned here. And, a few years ago, would a BMW 3 really be "luxury?" Mercedes Benz was luxury, BMW covered performance and perhaps Audi was the only marque that could be included here, combining luxury and sport.

Blurred lines, but from the C&D review, the answer is Jaguar XE. Beam me up, Sir William...

stickguy

Well, 10 years ago it was probably the 328i and g35 as the definitive examples. So extrapolate that and see what you get!

dino001

"Entry Level Luxury" in this forum and others usually implied not in a lineup of the maker, but versus wallets of the potential buyers. Those "ELL" basically meant "premium brand plus some, but not all latest premium features". Something, midlevel professional with decent job could afford, as long as they didn't buy too big house, or didn't have too many other obligations. They also limited the size of the vehicle. The old X-type from Jag was in that category, but they withdrew from that market completely and now cater to what I would call "full premium to upscale" segment with a performance skew into it. Those sometimes were called LPS, or "Luxury Performance Sedans".

dino001

stickguy said:

Well, 10 years ago it was probably the 328i and g35 as the definitive examples. So extrapolate that and see what you get!

So the question remains - did the segment move with the car models, or did the segment stayed where it is, and the models "moved out" of it. The former means ELLPS is now $45-$60K on the sticker, bigger in size, softer, less raw, more luxury. The latter means the "founders" don't qualify today by either being too expensive, too big, too soft, or all of the above. I'm sure there will be plenty of arguments both ways.

qbrozen

personally, I would say its an "either/or" kind of statement. Its the least expensive sedan on a luxo makers shelf AS LONG AS the base price doesn't exceed $40k. I'm just throwing a number out there for starters, but the idea is that, for example, Jag's XF was previously their lowest car, and with a starting point of $50k, it doesn't qualify as "entry level."

roadburner

Since the weather has improved I've been driving the 2002 and 318ti on a more regular basis. For me it is interesting and fun to experience the entry level Bimmers of 40 and 20 years ago.

My first BMW was a 1973 Bavaria 3.0 that my girlfriend-now wife of 29 years-found for me back in 1983, so when I bought the '02 by accident(long story) on eBay in 2008 it really was like going home again. The 2002 is lightweight yet feels solid; all the controls are reasonably direct and the 2 liter four does it's best- but with only 100 bhp it can only do so much. Aside from an Alpine AM/FM/CD?Sirius XM head unit all the modifications on my car are period correct-E21 Recaros, Weber 32/36, Delta CD ignition, Bosch Red Coil, Bilstein HDs-so the original character of the car shines through. Even with a direct top gear it easily cruises at 80+. Grip is good but body roll can be unsettling to those used to modern levels of roll stiffness. Still, I could easily see myself using a 1973 tii(with a five speed retrofit, rotary A/C compressor, and a decent head unit/speakers) as a daily driver. No, an E10 is most definitely not for everyone, but for those it speaks to, it is a revelation.

I consider the E36/5 ti to be "The Last '02" since it was the final BMW four seat coupe fitted with a semi-trailing arm suspension and a naturally aspirated four cylinder. Unlike the 2002, the ti is much more suitable to use as an entertaining(and economical) daily driver. It has a great HVAC system, adequate power(with a Turner/Conforti chip, at any rate), ABS, and front airbags. The only things I really miss(besides 100 extra bhp) are heated seats and wheel mounted audio controls. It weighs in some 550 pounds less than a 228i- and is 10 inches shorter. When BMW Individual was building my Club Sports they tried to make me take the "optional" sunroof but my salesperson stepped up and thus my car was built without a hole in the roof. For me, the car is just about perfect; light, nimble, and a ball to drive. The M42 engine does not suffer lazy driving; if you don't like keeping an engine "on the boil" than this definitely isn't your car. And on a winding road what shines through is the car's lack of mass. I've been reading how Mazda's new Miata will weigh close to what a 1994 Miata weighed. It would be nice if BMW started making weight reduction more of a priority. Speaking of vehicle weight, did you know that US safety standards require that the front airbags, side curtain airbags, and interior be designed to protect an unbelted 160 pound male? That's ridiculous, every state has a mandatory seat belt law, so safety systems should be engineered to protect properly restrained occupants. I'd think that would allow a significant reduction in weight and complexity. And anyway, at some point we need to let the Law of Natural Selection take its course.

m6user

I've always considered ELLPS to mean a luxury automaker's entry level car in the performance category, not what is entry level dollarwise for someone's pocketbook. How could anyone possibly define that?

markcincinnati

$45K UPPER limit for ELLPS? I would think that the number $45 is closer to the lower limit. If we're going to say that the car should have a STARTING price of $X, well there are a lot of cars that virtually no one buys that do indeed start at $38,995, but typically go out the door at least at $5K-$8K more.

I would think we're talking about a particular family of vehicles and that if we really mean LPS (as part of the acronym ELLPS), well you are indeed speaking of the entire family of 3 series from the lowest MSRP version (totally stripped, but, virtually never sold that way) all the way to the fully loaded M3. Where else would you put the M3 if not ELLPS? And, for that matter where would you put the "typical" 335 if not ELLPS, it certainly isn't going to fit in with the LPS cars (where the 5 series family inhabits).

$45K - $65K does cover about the widest range for all the cars that are generally considered in the ELLPS family. The thing that seems likely to make the number beginning with the "$4" as the bottom line number is the inclusion of the L & P, there are plenty of "S" (sedans) out there that can be had for $45K at the upper limit, but they are generally not going to be invited into the "LP" club. I would assume that Cadillac actually would begrudge a Regal (a Regal GS) the key to the ELLPS washroom, if the comparison is between the Regal and the ATS. Cadillac probably wants the ATS (all variants) in the ELLPS class and the CTS in the LPS class these days. Buick, based on the test reports of the LSS (Luxury Sport Sedan) Regal GS (starting at $40,195), I would think the Regal "family" can probably qualify. Where it becomes a bit dicey is that the bottom of the line model probably would be considered to be quite a bit less full of the "P" and the "S" of the bottom of the line ATS. And the middle child ATS can easily swim upstream to an MSRP of $55K+ without breaking a sweat.

The point, to repeat, is that the EL apparently seems, more than anything else, to represent the size of the vehicle; but the LP seems to classify the vehicle based on both luxury content and performance abilities. The range, I would think doesn't top out at $45K, frankly it probably starts north of $40K and keeps on going well into the $60's and as long as they are utilizing the same underwear (thinking of the base 3 series BMW at the bottom and the M3 at the top), going all the way into the $70s certainly isn't that much of a stretch.

This is the best range of cars, features and costs there is, methinks.

I'm just not interested in an Impala or a Malibu, no matter how tarted up it gets (but I think they are styled pretty nicely these days.)

qbrozen

i really think you gotta have that base price exclude any variants. An m3 does not belong here, IMHO. It is far from "entry level." So, for example, you could include both the 320 and 328 because, per my own made up criteria above, they both fall under the $40k base price cap. And by that same reasoning, you can exclude smaller top-spec cars such as the CLA AMG and S3.

I mean, we aren't talking option packages here. These are different models with their own base prices.

stickguy

Dino, I think that as some of the old time models "grew up" (outgrew the segment?) the smaller models came in underneath to replace them. Pretty sure that an A3 is roughly the size (and mission) of the A4 from a couple of generations ago. And would not be surprised if the ILX is close to the original TSX. BMW though has not (as far as I recall) grown the 3 as much, but they are sliding the 2 in that slot, just not a 4 door.

dino001

stickguy said:

BMW though has not (as far as I recall) grown the 3 as much, but they are sliding the 2 in that slot, just not a 4 door.

Oh yes, they did. Quite a bit. Current 3-series is much bigger than mine, which in turn was much bigger then previous one. 15 years ago the 5-series was EPA classified as "compact". Today, it would be hard to classify the 3 series as such.

stickguy

Good to know. I knew it did creep up, but did not realize it was that much.

same thing in the normal sedan class. A Civic today is the size of an Accord from a few generations ago.

markcincinnati

My buddy has a very nice, well equipped BMW 5 series (circa 2003). It is probably equal to or maybe even a tiny bit smaller than a current 3 series.

Where do the "more expensive" versions of a model go if not here -- a 335 or an S4 are certainly very very similar, dimension wise to the 3XX and A4 variant from whose loins they sprung, eh?

EL is, today, a size or internal designation (not price); LPS indicates Luxury (which adds cost and sometimes great cost) and Performance (which adds costs and sometimes ooober cost). I cross shopped an A4 Prestige with most options with an S4 Premium+ with three options, because they were "within reach" of each other financially. I did not cross shop a maxed out A4 Sline with an RS5 (sorry there is no RS4), but had there been one to choose from, I presume I would still have considered the RS4 as an ELLPS since there is no way someone would confuse it with an A6, S6 or RS6 (or RS7 in the case of this line, since the RS6 isn't imported to the US).

The sales rep I deal with told me he had "quite a lot" of S4's coming off lease (that would be the ones prior to the V6 supercharged version, i.e, V8's) and that a number of these customers just couldn't fathom getting an A5 class without a V8, so they went with an RS5 rather than sticking with an S5.

In this class of cars, I think folks look at the size of the vehicle and determine if "this is the size car I see myself driving", then they begin with packages, options and accessories until they have the car customized to their liking.

A fully optioned A4 2.0T Prestige with optional features is very close in price to a somewhat less decked out S4, hence my consideration of both. I assume BMW shoppers do the same thing -- they go in for the 328 and trick one out with the option sheet and then test drive a 335 with a few less options and say, "I'm going to stick with the EL (size) but forego a bit of L for a dose of P in my 3 series Sedan. Happens all the time.

My wife -- set on a Q5 3.0T Premium Plus with about 4 additional options -- test drove an SQ5.

Katie, bar the door -- the 3.0T was super nice -- but the Performance of the SQ was intoxicating.

She did not, however, cross shop with a Q7 or a Q3 -- she wanted the size first, performance second and luxury third. Some folks probably switch second and third -- but there is a cost regardless.

Know too, that some folks (my wife included) checked out the Q5 2.0T first and was "this close" to the buy, until she test drove the 3.0T and was "this close" until she test drove the SQ, and so it goes.

We choose not to afford a Macaan Turbo (which was close to $90K comparably equipped), but within the family, the choice was Q5 2.0T all the way to the SQ5 with the OMG engine.

qbrozen

markcincinnati said:

EL is, today, a size or internal designation (not price);

I wholeheartedly disagree. An entry-level job is salary-dependent, as is an entry-level house. Why should an entry-level vehicle not follow suit? If the grouping were dependent on size, the title would use car size classification and it would be called "Compact Luxury Performance Sedans."

stickguy

I am with Q on this. To me, the EL is absolutely cost-dependent.

rayainsw

'My first BMW was a 1973 Bavaria 3.0' - roadburner.
The first 'real' sport sedan I ever drove was a BMW 2800.
[ Precursor to the Bavaria. ]
Straight 6, 4-speed manual trans.
For many years thereafter, this defined 'Sport Sedan' for me.
I would love to have a Bavaria - with the drivetrain from
a BMW M235i.
- Ray
Not likely - even if I win the lottery . . .

dino001

qbrozen said:

markcincinnati said:

EL is, today, a size or internal designation (not price);

I wholeheartedly disagree. An entry-level job is salary-dependent, as is an entry-level house. Why should an entry-level vehicle not follow suit? If the grouping were dependent on size, the title would use car size classification and it would be called "Compact Luxury Performance Sedans."

I second that. Entry level has a money-related conotation in every single product, job, title, service I know. The only exception I can think of would be in hobby or leisure activity, where it would mean novice, or begginer. In vehicles, M3 or S4 is not entry level in anything. It is compact, or not large, but certainly not entry level. Perhaps in some rich exclusive country club, it could, when they would need somebody else vouch for me in my lowly 328, but a M3 owner may be let in without an usher escort watching the silverware...

markcincinnati

Perhaps these cars that we talk about that are in this broad broad category should be called Compact LPS, but also it might make sense to call them mid-size? Entry level and the LP designation if price is the current meaning of EL would seem to be an oxymoron -- and, if price is the meaning of EL, today, where do A3's, to name one, go? Do we "rationalize" the naming according to price? The Audi lineup (to name the one I am most familiar with) is A3 (and Q3), A4/A5 (and Q5), A6/A7 (and Q7). The characteristics of these that stands out first is size -- and as the cars get larger, in the progression the price does indeed escalate. But, prior to the current A3, the Audi A4/A5/S4/S5/RS5 were the "entry level" cars in the line. They were of a common, more or less, wheelbase length and the other notable characteristics that shared the theme were length and width -- size.

The part that conveys the cost factor is the amount of the content of Land P and a "certain something" that somehow we all understand, but like the word "quality" is a bit more difficult to define. A Chevy with a 110" wheelbase is not a member of the ELLPS club. A BMW 3 series, no matter how tarted up or down, however, is.

If the bothersome two letters are EL, well that is beyond our capabilities to modify. These are smaller LPS cars, and generally they cost less than their LPS counter parts. That, I think, is why a strippie 3 and a fully loaded 335 are both ELLPS cars.

roadburner

rayainsw said:

'My first BMW was a 1973 Bavaria 3.0' - roadburner.
The first 'real' sport sedan I ever drove was a BMW 2800.
[ Precursor to the Bavaria. ]
Straight 6, 4-speed manual trans.
For many years thereafter, this defined 'Sport Sedan' for me.
I would love to have a Bavaria - with the drivetrain from
a BMW M235i.
- Ray
Not likely - even if I win the lottery . . .

I know of at least one Bavaria with an S38 motor from an E28 M5 under the hood...

graphicguy

tlong said:

graphicguy said:

OK...if we're setting rules...$45K MSRP upper limit? Audi, BMW, Buick, Cadillac, Infiniti, Lincoln, Mercedes, Porsche, Volvo are the brands?

Acura?

OK...if we're setting rules...$45K MSRP upper limit? Acura,Audi, BMW, Buick, Cadillac, Infiniti, Lincoln, Mercedes, Porsche, Volvo are the brands?


Of course, Acura included!

nyccarguy

I agree that entry level definitely has to meet a price point. Problem is that there is way too much over lapping within the respective companies. The "entry level" price points vary as well. Yes there is a big difference between the meat of this market of $35K - $50K on paper. You have to factor in the fact that the majority of these cars are leased. So many times people don't see the difference of a few thousand dollars by looking at the total cost of the lease , but rather as an extra $30, $40, $50 etc per month.

The category is bigger and better than ever.


Acura TLX V6 SH-AWD
Audi A3, S3, A4
Buick Regal GS AWD
BMW 3 series
Cadillac ATS
Cadillac CTS
Infiniti Q40
Infiniti Q50
Lexus IS
Mercedes-Benz CLA
Mercedes-Benz C-Class
Volvo S60

stickguy

Bradd, definitely include the Volvo S60 too.

nyccarguy

stickguy said:

Bradd, definitely include the Volvo S60 too.

Done

breld

So Bradd - only the upper model of the TLX makes the cut? Just curious.

And I don't know about the CTS - it's always straddled the line between the entry-level (however we may define it) and the "next level" - earning comparisons to both a 3-series and the 5. With the intro of the ATS, I'd propose the CTS has been placed firmly into the 5, A6, E-class category.

nyccarguy

breld said:

So Bradd - only the upper model of the TLX makes the cut? Just curious.

And I don't know about the CTS - it's always straddled the line between the entry-level (however we may define it) and the "next level" - earning comparisons to both a 3-series and the 5. With the intro of the ATS, I'd propose the CTS has been placed firmly into the 5, A6, E-class category.

Just my suggestions of course. I feel like Acura's big V6 & slick AWD system do transform the car into a true competitor in the segment.

I agree with you about the CTS, but some of our own have scored these cars for many thousands off sticker which brings them firmly into the price class.

qbrozen

markcincinnati said:

Perhaps these cars that we talk about that are in this broad broad category should be called Compact LPS, but also it might make sense to call them mid-size? Entry level and the LP designation if price is the current meaning of EL would seem to be an oxymoron -- and, if price is the meaning of EL, today, where do A3's, to name one, go? Do we "rationalize" the naming according to price? The Audi lineup (to name the one I am most familiar with) is A3 (and Q3), A4/A5 (and Q5), A6/A7 (and Q7). The characteristics of these that stands out first is size -- and as the cars get larger, in the progression the price does indeed escalate. But, prior to the current A3, the Audi A4/A5/S4/S5/RS5 were the "entry level" cars in the line. They were of a common, more or less, wheelbase length and the other notable characteristics that shared the theme were length and width -- size.

The part that conveys the cost factor is the amount of the content of Land P and a "certain something" that somehow we all understand, but like the word "quality" is a bit more difficult to define. A Chevy with a 110" wheelbase is not a member of the ELLPS club. A BMW 3 series, no matter how tarted up or down, however, is.

If the bothersome two letters are EL, well that is beyond our capabilities to modify. These are smaller LPS cars, and generally they cost less than their LPS counter parts. That, I think, is why a strippie 3 and a fully loaded 335 are both ELLPS cars.

I used to say that the cheapest model of a brand is all that counted, but I'm thinking differently on that now. I think as long as it hits the pricepoint, it counts. So if that includes more than 1 model from a manufacturer, so be it. Reason being that not all manufacturers have more than 1 model. So just because Volvo doesn't have something smaller than the S60 at the moment, that shouldn't put the others at a disadvantage because they can only put their subcompacts up against it. I also think the price, if positioned properly, excludes the true mid-sizers such as the CTS, 5-series, E-class, and A6.

markcincinnati

If pricepoint, not size + L+P, is the determining factor for inclusion in this class or nomenclature, can we safely assume that the base price of the base model is "whatever it is" and that all modifications to that price based on "options and packages" are included in the mix? This, then, means we still have to have some way to account for the "L" and "P" of the cars (and of course the L+P add both content and cost, even to the base).

Perhaps we can then say that a base 3 series and a fully-optioned 335 are both ELLPS cars because they both start out at a price point of $X.

My car, today, is at the Audi dealer for its 25,000 service interval. Since the dealer has a policy of "trying" to match the loaner they provide with the car in for service, I was provided with an S4 for the day. The thing has 1,800 miles on it and is Misano Red Pearl in color (this color is a $500 option); the car also has the B&O sound system upgrade and blind spot monitoring. As a loaner, it also happens to be one equipped with the S-tronic (dual clutch) automatic transmission.

I consider this car below what I would think almost anyone, today, would go for -- but the dealer general manager says no, this car is EXACTLY the base model from a practical perspective, because "they can't sell" a version without some level of equipment above "book" entry level (what I would call a true stippie).

Indeed, since the car does not have MMI, it will probably only sell because it will -- eventually -- come out of the loaner fleet and be subject to very heavy off MSRP discounting. The "on the lot" cars virtually all have MMI+, those that don't were probably ordered specifically without nav with the dealer knowing they would end up in the loaner fleet.

You may or may not chafe at the nearly $3,500 price tag for the MMI+ system, but the take up of that option is, apparently, nearly universal, as is S-Tronic. Yet, sitting on the showroom floor there are a couple of A4's (and one of them, too, is nav-less); I would argue that the base price of these Junior-LPS cars is rarely seen by the actual buyers, since most folks do, typically, go for the "popular" option group.

I must note, too, that one reason for the majority going with the popular option groups and/or packages is that the lease calculations FAVOR the high-content variants over the maxed out variants and the strippie variants. Some car-actuary has figured out what will retain the highest residual -- and that, these days, is medium to medium high loaded.

So, if price, not size, is to be the rule of the day, I would have to submit that the price range of cars that fit the bill of ELLPS must be on the order of $39,999 to $69,999; after all it is possible to start out with a BMW 328 "Walmart" (or TJ Max) version and max out at a 335ix "Bespoke" (so to speak) and spend tens of thousands crossing the chasm from pauper to prince.

dino001

You forgot about 320i, Mark - even more "pauper" version, but according to some here, still spunky enough for their taste. I don't think less than 200 hp is such a problem, if the car is still dynamic enough, so I'd add it. In fact, I'd say that one would be something like "entry level of entry level"

qbrozen

markcincinnati said:

Perhaps we can then say that a base 3 series and a fully-optioned 335 are both ELLPS cars because they both start out at a price point of $X.

So, if price, not size, is to be the rule of the day, I would have to submit that the price range of cars that fit the bill of ELLPS must be on the order of $39,999 to $69,999; after all it is possible to start out with a BMW 328 "Walmart" (or TJ Max) version and max out at a 335ix "Bespoke" (so to speak) and spend tens of thousands crossing the chasm from pauper to prince.

Eh, I really gotta argue for a max on base price, as you said in the first paragraph above, not range of max pricing, be the deciding factor. Otherwise, you open the door to comparison of a CTS Vsport to a base 320i, for example, as 2 ELLPS cars. Whatever it maxes out to should be largely irrelevant since different people want different options. I'm thinking either $40k or $45k as the max base price. The $45k would allow for the 335i and V6 ATS, but it would allow in the S3. The $40k would exclude the S3 but also limit the group to the 4-cyl models of the aforementioned compacts. Either pricepoint excludes the mid-sizers. I could argue either way, honestly.

breld

nyccarguy said:

breld said:

So Bradd - only the upper model of the TLX makes the cut? Just curious.

And I don't know about the CTS - it's always straddled the line between the entry-level (however we may define it) and the "next level" - earning comparisons to both a 3-series and the 5. With the intro of the ATS, I'd propose the CTS has been placed firmly into the 5, A6, E-class category.

Just my suggestions of course. I feel like Acura's big V6 & slick AWD system do transform the car into a true competitor in the segment.

I agree with you about the CTS, but some of our own have scored these cars for many thousands off sticker which brings them firmly into the price class.

Makes sense - particularly to the extent AWD or RWD is considered a requirement for the segment.

breld

As for the criteria for what belongs in this segment (and the fact that there is no hard and fast answer is what makes this a fun discussion), how about the manufacturers' intention?

They make it pretty clear what vehicles are the intended competition, or which ones were used as benchmarks. If those include the 3-series, A4 and/or C-class, I'd say it's in the segment. Whether or not they compete well in the segment is a separate argument.

markcincinnati

I stand corrected ANY 3XX denomination or derivative that keeps the L+P (and the 320 qualifies) does belong.

Of course, that being said, the range ($) is now slightly broader.

E.G,

320i Sedan
320i xDrive Sedan
328i Sedan
328i xDrive Sedan
328d Sedan
328d xDrive Sedan
335i Sedan
335i xDrive Sedan

Even:

328i xDrive Sports Wagon
328d xDrive Sports Wagon

And:

ActiveHybrid 3

Finally @ the top o' the BMW ELLPS pyramid, the :

M3 Sedan

And we now have rounded out the range of BMW's ELLPS offerings. I suspect we would exclude the X3, since it is technically in the Premium-SUV (or in BMW-speak SAV) class of vehicles, even though it is based on the 3.

The range, then (in base MSRP) is:

$32,950 - $62,000, not that you could with much certainty even find a "base" version (without special ordering it).

Just for grins: With most options/packages selected, BUT with zero (no) performance options selected, and keeping the car as a 320i RWD Sedan (not ix as more than half of them are configured) a 320i, optioned thusly has an MSRP of $47,325.

My suspicion is that "no one" will option a 320i to $47,325 (and if they do and select ZERO performance options from the order-sheet, that would be even harder to imagine); at that point on the food chain they will, see what could be had with the "28" option added and a few of the "L" options subtracted; and hey, we're at the dealership anyway, "ya got any 335's we could test drive?"

Remember -- assuming a Cincinnati BMW dealer speaks for the US dealer body, generally -- most of these cars are leased and when sub-venting comes into play and "fill-in-the-blank" luxury and/or performance option or package or both are offered up for another $30 a month, well frugal shoppers turn into fanciful buyers.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but my data point would be to note: "most" ELLPS shoppers don't go from whatever they used to drive to an ELLPS to give up such things as Bluetooth phone and audio integration, a backup camera and parking sensors and many other "we take them for granted" features they had in their nicely equipped Accords, Camrys, Nissans, and Passats just for the snob appeal (if there is any) of driving an Audi, BMW, Lexus or Mercedes.

Case in point, again: The loaner Audi S4 (@$52,200) I have today doesn't have a backup camera, park assist or bluetooth iphone audio integration-- who, in the wide, wide world of sports would spend (or expect to spend) that kind of cheese and not get a backup camera, etc? If my maximum spending ability prevented me from having these "essentials," I assure you I would not look at a German, I'd go Asian or American and probably not be looking at the ELLPS class. Hyundai Genesis anyone?

qbrozen

Once again, an M3 is not entry-level by any stretch of the imagination. Nobody is spending $60k thinking "yeah, this is entry-level."

And, if it does count, then so do the 5-series, E-class, and even XF.

dino001

qbrozen said:

Whatever it maxes out to should be largely irrelevant since different people want different options. I'm thinking either $40k or $45k as the max base price.

It will be $50K soon. 335i has now starting price of just squeaking below $45K cap, guess what it will be next year. 435 is already above $45K, both coupe and grand coupe. So, unless we disregard naming convention and not recognize 4-series as a separate model, we would have to be prepared for another price escalation. Also C400 is already above $45K.

Based on a quick look, it seems the top versions of those Germans are pricing themselves out of this segment: S4 starts at $48K, S5 is $52K, C400 sedan is $48K, I'm sure the next generation coupe will me more. It's almost like there is forming a separate segment of "entry level plus luxury sports sedans", however oxymoronic it sounds, slotting itself in high 40s/low 50s base pricing, with options running up to $70K. One could add R-Design trim of Volvo S60 and ATS 3.6. One could easily make an argument for adding IS350 F and some may want to add top TLX, but I don't know about that. This segment would be distinguished by elevated performance bolted on essentially the same frame of their basic versions. Some additional differentiations by unique colors, interior versions, or other aesthetic treatments will separate those trims further.

Then M3/4 and RS4/5 with (future C AMG) could be called "high performance compact luxury sports sedans". ATS-V, if finally released, will surely be aspiring to that club. This segment will mean not only separate special engines, but special solutions related to suspension, weight reduction, chassis design modifications made specifically to support the performance. They'll usually have their own colors, increased comfort features, special interior touches, on much higher level of differentiation then models above. They are in fact, their own models. Call them "poor man's supercars".

nyccarguy

"$69,999"

No way anything with a 6 in front of it should qualify as "entry level."

dino001

nyccarguy said:

"$69,999"

No way anything with a 6 in front of it should qualify as "entry level."

I agree. I think it's again in eye of the beholder. Those making middle six-digits (not millionaires, but elite professionals) have a completely different view on entry level luxury than those making $80K-$120K, looking for a premium ride that won't break their finances. Something nice, well above average, with this sporty slant, but within reasonable means. Mark says he can't even imagine lack of backup camera - I don't have it, I do have audible warning system with a colored map picture. I like leather on mine, but wouldn't dismiss those who like that fake stuff - apparently local Mercedes Benz dealers stock only those on their CLA, C, GLA class and even some of E-class. If people buy it, so be it.

I know if I were making twice the money I do today, I'd still be buying compact/midsize, but M4/3 or RS would likely make my list. And in that parallel universe, I'd probably think it's still "entry level".

robr2

I'll add to the fire:

ELLPS:

Entry Level - what is the most basic model that will get you into the brand?

Luxury - in the eye of the beholder, but can the EL be upgraded to an ELL?

Performance Sedan - will it accelerate briskly, stop safely and take a corner without inducing intestinal distress?

So here is my list:

Acura TLX $31,445
Audi A3 $29,900
BMW 320i $32,950
Cadillac ATS $34,210
Infinti Q40 $33,950
Lexus IS250 $36,550
MB CLA $31,500
Volvo S60 $33,950

These all fit the characteristics I listed above. They all get you into the brand. They all can be upgraded with luxury goodies. They all can have their primary driven wheels upgraded to AWD and offer more potent power plants.