Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

Michaell

robr2 said:

I'll add to the fire:

ELLPS:

Entry Level - what is the most basic model that will get you into the brand?

Luxury - in the eye of the beholder, but can the EL be upgraded to an ELL?

Performance Sedan - will it accelerate briskly, stop safely and take a corner without inducing intestinal distress?

So here is my list:

Acura TLX $31,445
Audi A3 $29,900
BMW 320i $32,950
Cadillac ATS $34,210
Infinti Q40 $33,950
Lexus IS250 $36,550
MB CLA $31,500
Volvo S60 $33,950

These all fit the characteristics I listed above. They all get you into the brand. They all can be upgraded with luxury goodies. They all can have their primary driven wheels upgraded to AWD and offer more potent power plants.

rob, i think your logic makes perfect sense and endorse your list of vehicles completely.

Could we include the Buick Regal in this list? Lincoln MK-whatever the entry level model is?

Though I suspect there will be dissenters; makes for a lively discussion!

stickguy

I too like that list. I would support adding the Turbo regal. Not the Lincoln though.

cdnpinhead

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

What if 32.891% of them have an artificial leg?

Michaell

stickguy said:

I too like that list. I would support adding the Turbo regal. Not the Lincoln though.

Not enough P in the Lincoln?

stickguy

I would certainly say so.

robr2

Michaell said:

robr2 said:

I'll add to the fire:

ELLPS:

Entry Level - what is the most basic model that will get you into the brand?

Luxury - in the eye of the beholder, but can the EL be upgraded to an ELL?

Performance Sedan - will it accelerate briskly, stop safely and take a corner without inducing intestinal distress?

So here is my list:

Acura TLX $31,445
Audi A3 $29,900
BMW 320i $32,950
Cadillac ATS $34,210
Infinti Q40 $33,950
Lexus IS250 $36,550
MB CLA $31,500
Volvo S60 $33,950

These all fit the characteristics I listed above. They all get you into the brand. They all can be upgraded with luxury goodies. They all can have their primary driven wheels upgraded to AWD and offer more potent power plants.

rob, i think your logic makes perfect sense and endorse your list of vehicles completely.

Could we include the Buick Regal in this list? Lincoln MK-whatever the entry level model is?

Though I suspect there will be dissenters; makes for a lively discussion!

Someone thinks I make perfect sense?? Why thank you.

I was waffling on the Buick but with more reflection, I agree it should be part of the list. As for the MK-Z, I don't think there is enough P there. IMHO, it competes against the ES, Azera, Avalon, et al which are more ELLS'.

My next post will include the Regal and next year we can add the Jaguar XE to the list.

robr2

Acura TLX $31,445
Audi A3 $29,900
BMW 320i $32,950
Buick Regal $29,665
Cadillac ATS $34,210
Infinti Q40 $33,950
Lexus IS250 $36,550
MB CLA $31,500
Volvo S60 $33,950

Michaell

robr2 said:

Acura TLX $31,445 Audi A3 $29,900 BMW 320i $32,950 Buick Regal $29,665 Cadillac ATS $34,210 Infinti Q40 $33,950 Lexus IS250 $36,550 MB CLA $31,500 Volvo S60 $33,950

Just for grins and giggles what are the prices if you tick every options box?

qbrozen

robr2 said:

Entry Level - what is the most basic model that will get you into the brand?

I agree, but I was trying to be diplomatic and give a little leeway.

BUUUTTT... what about the Acura ILX? And then there's that pesky issue of the lowest current bimmer and caddy being a class size above Audi and MB. Kind of puts those smaller ones at a disadvantage just because their manufacturers decided Americans were ready for smaller cars.

m6user

Why not Lincoln? 300hp, AWD, luxury brand. 180hp BMW is P and 300hp MKZ is not?? I don't care for the Lincoln all that much but is that the reason people leave it off the list......personal opinion??

roadburner

m6user said:

Why not Lincoln? 300hp, AWD, luxury brand. 180hp BMW is P and 300hp MKZ is not?? I don't care for the Lincoln all that much but is that the reason people leave it off the list......personal opinion??

I can't remember the words "performance" and "Lincoln" being used in the same sentence since the demise of the Mark VII LSC in the early '90s.

rayainsw

'.. since the demise of the Mark VII LSC in the early '90s.'
And the LS V8 - in the early 2000s.
- Ray
Drove one for over 30,000 miles...

roadburner

rayainsw said:

'.. since the demise of the Mark VII LSC in the early '90s.'
And the LS V8 - in the early 2000s.
- Ray
Drove one for over 30,000 miles...

Good catch- that would DEFINITELY be an ELLPS- it slipped what's left of my mind...

robr2

qbrozen said:

robr2 said:

Entry Level - what is the most basic model that will get you into the brand?

I agree, but I was trying to be diplomatic and give a little leeway.

BUUUTTT... what about the Acura ILX? And then there's that pesky issue of the lowest current bimmer and caddy being a class size above Audi and MB. Kind of puts those smaller ones at a disadvantage just because their manufacturers decided Americans were ready for smaller cars.

The ILX doesn't have the option to power the other wheels nor the upgrade the power plant.

When the new 1 series sedan comes to market next year, then it will replace the 320i as the base model. Soon there will be a subcompact Caddy and that will push the ATS out of the ELLPS.

IMHO, Audi and MB didn't decide Americans were ready for smaller cars. They decided that they couldn't keep the A4 and C Class that cheap.

robr2

m6user said:

Why not Lincoln? 300hp, AWD, luxury brand. 180hp BMW is P and 300hp MKZ is not?? I don't care for the Lincoln all that much but is that the reason people leave it off the list......personal opinion??

IMHO, it doesn't meet the criteria of being able to corner without inducing intestinal distress or the puckering of one's sphincter.

dino001

robr2 said:

m6user said:

Why not Lincoln? 300hp, AWD, luxury brand. 180hp BMW is P and 300hp MKZ is not?? I don't care for the Lincoln all that much but is that the reason people leave it off the list......personal opinion??

IMHO, it doesn't meet the criteria of being able to corner without inducing intestinal distress or the puckering of one's sphincter.

I think, I agree. Never heard of anybody trying to toss it into a corner. Mr. McConaughey is shown strolling down the boulevard at quite pedestrian pace, so the intended use is quite clear. It's not wrong, but it's not sports, or performance, even withh 300 horses.

dino001

robr2 said:

Soon there will be a subcompact Caddy and that will push the CTS out of the ELLPS

I think ATS, bigger size and increased pricing did that already.

markcincinnati

Is the common thought that, for example, the A3 is an ELLPS but the A4 is not?

Based on "history," I would keep the A3 and A4 in separate classes of automobiles. And, how is it that both the ATS and CTS can be ELLPS, does that mean the XTS is now the model called LPS?

One point of clarification, my inclusion of cars in this class that can be optioned to numbers deep into the $60K range is NOT the base price. It is the potential price if optioned.

Just like the 320 can have over $15,000 of options added cranking it to just south of $48K, I was suggesting the RANGE from low to high. Most folks won't go for either end, I would assume.

And, each of us brings experience to the buying of cars -- and also to our expectations of features. I cannot see a car without a backup camera, and frankly, I would think top-view is better still. It is a situation where, due to incrementalism, we get a car with, say, back up camera, and then you miss it when it is not there.

Of course, it will be made mandatory by the insurance institute due to the reduction in claims, so you'd better get one sooner rather than later. Who knows: what once were vices will soon become necessities.

robr2

dino001 said:

robr2 said:

Soon there will be a subcompact Caddy and that will push the CTS out of the ELLPS

I think ATS, bigger size and increased pricing did that already.

Of course - brain fart there. I meant the ATS will be pushed out by a subcompact Cadillac. I edited my post to reflect that.

sweendogy

Ah the Lincoln LS ... "I drove Lincolns before anyone paid me to drive lincolns" now I finally understand whats Specolis best friend ways saying. The Lincoln should be added - it's sudo lux, looks pretty cool and is under 40k- no idea how it drives but seems similar to the others -and if you add a Buick then this should be fair game.

m6user

I haven't driven a Lincoln MKZ but I understand it is has similar underpinnings to the Fusion which is based on the Euro Mondeo. Reviews of the Fusion usually put it near the top in handling for mainstream midsize cars.

But you guys have answered my question......nobody can really give a good answer other than "I don't think they handle very good". Nobody seems to have driven one based on perception. But with 300hp, AWD and supposed decent road handling it still begs the question IMO.

robr2

OK - updated list:

Acura TLX $31,445
Audi A3 $29,900
BMW 320i $32,950
Buick Regal $29,665
Cadillac ATS $34,210
Infinti Q40 $33,950
Lexus IS250 $36,550
Lincoln MKZ $35,190
MB CLA $31,500
Volvo S60 $33,950

tlong

robr2 said:

qbrozen said:

robr2 said:

Entry Level - what is the most basic model that will get you into the brand?

I agree, but I was trying to be diplomatic and give a little leeway.

BUUUTTT... what about the Acura ILX? And then there's that pesky issue of the lowest current bimmer and caddy being a class size above Audi and MB. Kind of puts those smaller ones at a disadvantage just because their manufacturers decided Americans were ready for smaller cars.

The ILX doesn't have the option to power the other wheels nor the upgrade the power plant.

When the new 1 series sedan comes to market next year, then it will replace the 320i as the base model. Soon there will be a subcompact Caddy and that will push the ATS out of the ELLPS.

IMHO, Audi and MB didn't decide Americans were ready for smaller cars. They decided that they couldn't keep the A4 and C Class that cheap.

So adding to the fun, I'd argue that the driven wheels shouldn't matter. If the vehicle performs well and has luxury, the wheels driven are a design issue. It is the performance that counts and there are quite a few vehicles that are fwd that still have good performance - some of them even have better steering feel than the current BMW 3 series which to me is a more important indicator of a sporty vehicle. I'm not usually cornering at .9gs or doing donuts in parking lots, so the driven wheels don't matter to me so much.

As far as entry level, I'd agree with previous posts - it should not be the brand, or the size, it should be *luxury* and *performance*, regardless of those other factors. You could argue that the ILX doesn't have enough luxury and/or performance, and if that is the case (not necessarily agreeing with that; only for argument), then it is the TLX which is the "ELLPS" for Acura since it's got a low enough price with the requisite amount of luxury and performance. And I'd also argue that some vehicle from MB or BMW, etc., might not qualify, in spite of the marquee, if the performance and/or luxury are lacking.

JMHO.

robr2

Michaell said:

robr2 said:

Acura TLX $31,445
Audi A3 $29,900
BMW 320i $32,950
Buick Regal $29,665
Cadillac ATS $34,210
Infinti Q40 $33,950
Lexus IS250 $36,550
MB CLA $31,500
Volvo S60 $33,950

Just for grins and giggles what are the prices if you tick every options box?

OK - ticking all the boxes of what looked to be factory/port options - no dealer accessories AFAIK.

Acura TLX $31,445 goes to $45,720
Audi A3 $29,900 goes to $45,800 for A3 to $52,250 for S3
BMW 320i $32,950 goes to $65,700 for 335ix to $87,300 for M3
Buick Regal $29,665 goes to $37,195
Cadillac ATS $34,210 goes $57,365
Infinti Q40 $33,950 goes to $42,345
Lexus IS250 $36,550 goes to $48,845 for IS to $50,998 for IS-F
Lincoln MKZ $35,190 goes to $51,280
MB CLA $31,500 goes to $53,050 for CLA to $70,755 for CLA45 AMG
Volvo S60 $33,950 goes to $54,395

tlong

robr2 said:

Michaell said:

robr2 said:

Acura TLX $31,445
Audi A3 $29,900
BMW 320i $32,950
Buick Regal $29,665
Cadillac ATS $34,210
Infinti Q40 $33,950
Lexus IS250 $36,550
MB CLA $31,500
Volvo S60 $33,950

Just for grins and giggles what are the prices if you tick every options box?

OK - ticking all the boxes of what looked to be factory/port options - no dealer accessories AFAIK.

Acura TLX $31,445 goes to $45,720
Audi A3 $29,900 goes to $45,800 for A3 to $52,250 for S3
BMW 320i $32,950 goes to $65,700 for 335ix to $87,300 for M3
Buick Regal $29,665 goes to $37,195
Cadillac ATS $34,210 goes $57,365
Infinti Q40 $33,950 goes to $42,345
Lexus IS250 $36,550 goes to $48,845 for IS to $50,998 for IS-F
Lincoln MKZ $35,190 goes to $51,280
MB CLA $31,500 goes to $53,050 for CLA to $70,755 for CLA45 AMG
Volvo S60 $33,950 goes to $54,395

I think I'm getting a nosebleed...

dino001

How about C-class? Too big now, or too expensive? A4? I see, there are lower models, so they no longer need to apply. I think it is possible to have two models in same category, if they're not differentiated ad much. It does look like C-class is intended to move up, just as CTS. I think A4 is still in the class, both in size and price.

dino001

m6user said:

I haven't driven a Lincoln MKZ but I understand it is has similar underpinnings to the Fusion which is based on the Euro Mondeo. Reviews of the Fusion usually put it near the top in handling for mainstream midsize cars.

But you guys have answered my question......nobody can really give a good answer other than "I don't think they handle very good". Nobody seems to have driven one based on perception. But with 300hp, AWD and supposed decent road handling it still begs the question IMO.

I think there is a difference between sportyish mainstream sedan, like Fusion or its plush cousin (more like stepbrother) and 328, A4, or TLX. They may not be world apart, but the separation is distinct.

benjaminh

The Acura ILX is about 6 inches longer than the Audi A3, and gets to 60 faster than the A3 1.8. At a little after 14 minutes in this long video Alex on Autos measures the acceleration of the ILX at 6.25 0-60, which seems to be about half a second faster than the A3 1.8. At 12:20 he talks about how Acura's 8-speed dual clutch is in some ways superior to that offered in the Audi A3. The Audi obviously has a lot more prestige, and arguably a nicer interior, but the Acura has more standard equipment—like moonroof, heated power seat, rearview camera, pushbutton start, LED headlights, etc. The A3 does have standard leather, while the base ILX has pleather. The A3 also has a better standard stereo. Overall, a comparably equipped A3 1.8 costs maybe about $4-5k more than an ILX, and yet the A3 is slower and gets lower mpg. I may be the only one, but I think if you're including the A3 1.8 then there's a case to be made for the ILX. But if you're starting with the A3 2.0 quattro, I guess that's a different story....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo9DiqFvAcU

robr2

dino001 said:

How about C-class? Too big now, or too expensive? A4? I see, there are lower models, so they no longer need to apply. I think it is possible to have two models in same category, if they're not differentiated ad much. It does look like C-class is intended to move up, just as CTS. I think A4 is still in the class, both in size and price.

Well based on my criteria of EL - base model that gets you into the brand - and get then be optioned out to give it the L and P, then the CLA is it for MB.

As for the ILX, many would say the inability to have AWD as option precludes it from being an ELLPS. If it were offered with SH-AWD, then it would be the starting point.

Lastly, someone noted that the Fusion and MKZ are based on the European Mondeo. That is incorrect. The current Mondeo was introduced after the Fusion and MKZ. The Mondeo is the exact same car as the Fusion and all 3 were engineered at the same time on a brand new platform.

ab348

The ILX also suffers from the stigma of being perceived by many as a tarted-up Civic. Even though the competing models are also built on existing mainstream platforms. the ILX tends to suffer from that more than most.

qbrozen

ILX is still part of a luxo brand, so I say it counts regardless of driven wheels. I mean, put it this way... So a FWD A4 is not luxo, but an AWD version that is optioned exactly the same other than the driven wheels is now luxo? Doesn't make sense to me. They will both look and feel exactly the same when cruising down the highway, which is what luxo is all about.

And, as for the ILX being a tarted up Civic... if we use that as criteria, then we'd have to exclude many vehicles from this list. I think about half the luxo market is just tarted up versions of lower-ranking cousins.

venture

robr2 said:

dino001 said:

How about C-class? Too big now, or too expensive? A4? I see, there are lower models, so they no longer need to apply. I think it is possible to have two models in same category, if they're not differentiated ad much. It does look like C-class is intended to move up, just as CTS. I think A4 is still in the class, both in size and price.

Lastly, someone noted that the Fusion and MKZ are based on the European Mondeo. That is incorrect. The current Mondeo was introduced after the Fusion and MKZ. The Mondeo is the exact same car as the Fusion and all 3 were engineered at the same time on a brand new platform.

Sort of.

As I understand it, they were engineered together as you said, but the Modeo was delayed being introduced so the Fusion/MKZ were released first.

Why was the Mondeo delayed? Many opinions, but I don't know if anyone other than Ford really knows. The old version of the Mondeo was still selling well in Europe for one thing. Fitting of the 3 cylinder engines and diesel engines all seem to be possibilities. Plus they get the Estate wagon in Europe.

robr2

The Mondeo was delayed by 3 years to allow Ford to focus on "balancing the supply and demand of its industrial footprint." Which means they needed time to consolidate their European factories to stop the flow of red ink.

I also think that it wasn't vital to launch a new Mondeo in 2012. The Mondeo then on sale was only 6 years old and the sales of executive saloons were dropping as CUV's started replacing them.

ab348

qbrozen said:

And, as for the ILX being a tarted up Civic... if we use that as criteria, then we'd have to exclude many vehicles from this list. I think about half the luxo market is just tarted up versions of lower-ranking cousins.

It's not that it's BUILT on a shared platform - as I said, most are. It's how it is perceived compared to other makes. Perhaps it's because Honda Canada commissioned a few generations of particularly awful Acura variations of the Civic that were little more than a different grille and some extra trim. Up here they are known as the Acura Civic regardless of how they're badged.

benjaminh

It's true that the A3 looks nothing at all like the Golf, while as much as the ILX is restyled and upgraded from the Civic, it has more trouble escaping its sibling. More than that, Audi seems to signify "premium" and "prestige," even if a base A3 1.8 falls behind an ILX on some things while costing thousands more....

No doubt about it, Acura has an image problem. I think their better products are going to slowly lure more people back into the brand, but it's going to be a slow process.

kyfdx

I say the ILX counts, as well.. (though, I wouldn't choose it..).

I might be a purist when it comes to driven wheels, but that doesn't mean everyone has to be...

stickguy

The Ilx counts IMO for 2016 with the bigger engine and new trans. Plenty quick enough for the class.

benjaminh

The "directional" wheels on the ILX seem a little odd to me, and maybe out of place for an aspiring ELLS. I don't dislike them, exactly, but they wouldn't be my first choice. I think they're supposed to appeal to younger buyers, but for those of us old enough to remember the 80s, they seem almost nostalgic. And I wonder if the car would sell better if they just called it the Integra. In my mind, that's what I imagine the I in ILX stands for anyway....

markcincinnati

I guess I'm coming 'round to the notion that -- and this is only for example purposes -- both the A3 and A4 could be called ELLPS vehicles (but if I am doing so it is kicking and screaming). This whole thing is so darned subjective though, since I still harbor the notion that (pre A3), the A4 was ELLPS (even though you can crank the S4 to close to $70K) as [because?] the A6 was an LPS.

The ATS is ELLPS as the CTS is [now] LPS; as 3 series is ELLPS as 5 series is LPS.

Now, when the CLA and the A3 came along (and to a certain extent the ILX) we dropped from "regular fit," to "slim," and then finally to "petite" (sort of).

To some here EL is an indication of price -- but even those who go to the trouble can find the $ range for a 3 series to be from $32K to $87K.

I have -- historically -- thought of the ELLPS to be mostly a smaller version of the LPS family. Meaning size seems to (in MY mind) still be a better trait than cost. Hell, for the price of my S4, I could have had a Premium+ A6, but the size would clearly differentiate them.

I had not (and mostly still don't) considered the possibility of an A3 or CLA or ILX ever being considered for entry into the ELLPS class -- because of my [possibly wrongheaded] assertion that as nice (or expensive) as the [top o' the line] A3 family (which is called an S3) is, well, it is smaller than the already EL entrant, the A4.

Just as we bumped the CTS to the LPS class and replaced the then ELLPS CTS with the ATS, we may -- soon -- find ourselves needing to do the same thing with the ILX and A3.

Today, however, knowing only what is out there, it doesn't seem [to me] right to have both the ILX and the TLX called ELLPS cars -- just like it doesn't seem right to bracket the CLA and C Class Mercedes as ELLPS cars.

It seems that base price is the hang up -- not actual price -- for we don't seem to argue that a 5 series is an ELLPS anymore than we would argue an A6 or E class is an ELLPS -- we don't because there are model designations downstream (in both size and price).

We have (or the manufacturers have) blurred the lines somewhat -- and it will be another cycle before the cars are again (maybe) rationalized.

An ILX is an Acura.
An ILX is a tarted up Honda
A TLX has much more L + P than the ILX
There is a car model, not just a badge, below the TLX -- and that is the ILX.

Currently the same breakdown is applicable to the A3 and A4 -- but the new A4 will what? Blur the lines further or sharpen the focus, make the two more readily differentiated? Does anyone think the CTS and ATS are the same class of car -- even though the MSRP of the ATS can be made to significantly overlap the MSRP of the CTS.

And so on.

I'll settle -- internally -- for the TLX to be in the same class as the A4, 3 series and C class. I'll accept the A3 and ILX and CLA as similar classified cars. I just find it difficult to have both the A3 and A4 designated as ELLPS cars if the 3 series is in the mix -- the 3 series is marketed against the A4 and C class, not the A3 and ILX class.

I'm more willing to overlook driven wheels -- but my own money would only go for an AWD vehicle knowing what I know and living in the climate I live in. This rules the ILX out -- but keeps the TLX SH-AWD firmly in the fold.

This is getting difficult for me to keep straight.

I love these forums, and I do not want to exclude anyone from them -- but for the sake of birds of a feather, so to speak, when I want to get into one of the forums, I'm not going to venture into the full-sized pickup truck forum since my interests are probably not going to be well served there (and vice versa).

I want to hear (read) your thoughts pertaining to similar vehicles -- I'm going to gravitate toward forums where the participants are interested in and experienced with 3 series, C class, B8 Audis (A4's), TLX's Q50's, etc, etc. I don't have interest in Malibus (not that there is anything wrong with them or those who write about them) or LaCrosses or 300's or 911's or Stingrays (same). Yes a fully tarted up S3 may give rise to a legitimate question about S3's vs A4's or S4's, but generally speaking these are meant to be separate models within the Audi family.

Besides, Audi will soon be rolling out the B9 A4's which will, probably, crank up both the L and the P (and the price) further differentiating the A3 and A4 lines. Mercedes, BMW, Acura, Lexus and Infiniti will almost certainly do the same thing. Well, I think Mercedes already has with the new C class compared to the new CLA class.

In any case, there needs to be a place to go to discuss the cars that would appear to be competitive with each other. Yes, I guess it is possible for someone to shop for an ILX and drive out with a TLX SH-AWD Advance, just as it is possible to look at a 328 and drive out with a 335ix -- but, using the auto magazine comparison test reports as guides, it would be more typical for the A4 to be tested against the 3 series or the C class not the A3 tested against the C class and 3 series, etc.

My head hurts.

stickguy

so split out compact entry level and mid-size entry level. still within the EL family, but recognizes different size, mission and competitiors.

ILX/A3/CLA/BMW 1 class (when it arrives) would be compacts. Heck, could maybe slot in a top line Jetta! Oh wait, that is an A3... The ATS goes here too.

the "mid size" (probably a bad term) are the A4, 3 series (320/328), Volvo, TLX, Infiniti, MB C class, etc.

To further mess with your head, I don't count the HiPo models as entry level. Call them HP compact/mid-size entry level. that would be the S3/S4, M3, etc.

seems logical to me. And I don't see a problem having a couple of groupings in the entry level category. The all fit the basic criteria: A premium model, with sporting pretenses and reasonable performance to back it up, and a decent level of luxury features. Basically a step up from your basic family sedans or small cars.

and yes, just like with compact to midsize family sedans, there is cross-over in content, performance and price. You can load up an A3 to be fancier and more expensive than an A4, and absolutely people can cross-shop them. same with ILX to TLX,. Still within the ELLPS family.

I put the CTS. E class, 5 series, etc. in the next class up. I think you called them LPS (sans EL) which seems quite reasonable.

Hey, this makes sense to me.

graphicguy

I go away for awhile and look what happens....we're debating the definition of an acronym. LOL!

Interesting to read, however!

robr2

Well let's go back to my list and note the sizes based on EPA standards:

Acura TLX Compact
Audi A3 Subcompact
BMW 320i Compact
Buick Regal Midsize
Cadillac ATS Compact
Infinti Q40 Compact
Lexus IS250 Compact
Lincoln MKZ Midsize
MB CLA Compact
Volvo S60 Compact

The others mentioned:

Acura ILX Compact
Audi A4 Compact
MB C Class Compact

So differentiating by size isn't going to clear the water any....

cdnpinhead

graphicguy said:

I go away for awhile and look what happens....we're debating the definition of an acronym. LOL!

Some more than others.

m6user

I don't pay any attention to what category the EPA puts a car in. Heck, they classify the Bentley 12 cyl as a compact car. Don't think too many people look at one of those and say "boy, that's a sharp compact car".

qbrozen

Actually, the ILX/A3/CLA/1-series are subcompacts. Then you have your compacts (A4, C-class, 3-series, ATS), your midsize (5-series, etc), and your full-size (7-series, etc). There is the microcar class below all of that, but the luxo players haven't ventured there yet.

So, yes, I agree with where I think you are going ... boards that divide by class and forget this whole pesky "entry level" tag, since that obviously varies by manufacturer for the time being.

breld

I like the above take from @stickguy and @qbrozen. Looking at these by class, and including the emerging sub-compact class, makes sense to me.

So, does that mean we rename the acronyms?

Sub-compact Luxury And Performance (SLAP)
Compact Luxury and Performance (CLAP)

I don't know - just doesn't sound good to be aspiring to get the CLAP.

robr2

qbrozen said:

Actually, the ILX/A3/CLA/1-series are subcompacts. Then you have your compacts (A4, C-class, 3-series, ATS), your midsize (5-series, etc), and your full-size (7-series, etc). There is the microcar class below all of that, but the luxo players haven't ventured there yet.

So, yes, I agree with where I think you are going ... boards that divide by class and forget this whole pesky "entry level" tag, since that obviously varies by manufacturer for the time being.

Except that the ILX and CLA are both considered compacts by the EPA. So are we now going to identify by barely a compact and almost a mid-size?

qbrozen

They are? Huh. Where do I look that info up? Because I tried fueleconomy.gov and they list the Aston Rapide S as subcompact, so methinks that's not a reliable source.

EDIT: So it took quite a bit of searching, but it seems the CLA has 101 total cubic feet of interior volume, while the C-class sedan has 100. Go figure. Oh, and the Rapide has 97?? I give up trying to figure this out. Seems to be pretty apparent that interior volume means a whole lotta nothing.

robr2

qbrozen said:

They are? Huh. Where do I look that info up? Because I tried fueleconomy.gov and they list the Aston Rapide S as subcompact, so methinks that's not a reliable source.

EDIT: So it took quite a bit of searching, but it seems the CLA has 101 total cubic feet of interior volume, while the C-class sedan has 100. Go figure. Oh, and the Rapide has 97?? I give up trying to figure this out. Seems to be pretty apparent that interior volume means a whole lotta nothing.

Well the EPA is fueleconomy.gov so it is a reliable source. Here is the link:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byclass/byEPAclassNF.shtml

The EPA measure cubic footage of the seating areas. Based on that criteria, the Rapide is a subcompact. Aston designed the Rapide with 4 tight seats with a huge console running through the middle of the car. Don't blame the EPA for Aston's poor space utilization.

Many people look at a car, see a big exterior, and expect the interior to be large. Hence, interior volume is what is measured by the EPA.

m6user

I really don't know anyone, myself included, that consults with or cares what class the EPA designates a car. Manufacturers seldom market their cars using the EPA categories.