Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

smarty666

I agree, that BMW can be had a price similar to many Acura models, BUT, and this is big BUT, at the same price, the BMW is lacking many features and technology the Acura comes with at the same price. If you load up the 328 say with the same technology, features, and equipment that a tech package TSX comes with, the Bimmer is going to be a few thousands more.

Thats just the way it works out. Mercedes is the same way as BMW once loaded up with the same equipment, tech, etc as a loaded up Acura is. They both are going to cost more. And people pay that by the droves, except for Lexus, MB and BMW have the highest luxury sales b/c people flock to them because of their ridiculous prestige badge, despite having to spend more money to get that in their BMW or MB then for the same stuff in a Acura, Infiniti, or Lexus for a few to several thousand dollars less.

bimmer4me

this can be said about all automobile manufactures one way or another...check out the 2011 Hyundai forum.

shipo

It's no joke. Like it or not, believe it or not, BMWs are typically very reliable over the long term. That the brand spanking new 5-Series has a very specific teething issue with the steering control software (which causes a pull to the right and has caused a number of folks to ask BMW to buy the car back) is A) not surprising given that it is a first year model, and cannot be used as a metric to bolster your argument that BMWs aren't reliable.

FWIW, I've had two BMWs and driven them for a combined 150,000 miles. The single unscheduled service event that I've ever had was a burned out taillight. Sounds pretty reliable in my book.

tlong

Thats just the way it works out. Mercedes is the same way as BMW once loaded up with the same equipment, tech, etc as a loaded up Acura is. They both are going to cost more. And people pay that by the droves, except for Lexus, MB and BMW have the highest luxury sales b/c people flock to them because of their ridiculous prestige badge

While I agree with a lot of what you say, your implication in the bolded text is not entirely correct. There are reasons that those badges have certain reputations. As a former Audi owner and a current Acura owner, I can tell you that the Acura has been a LOT more reliable than the Audi. But do you know what? I MISS the Audi. It inspired more passion as its interior was nicer, its handling was better, and it was more solid. But it was less reliable and cost a lot more to fix. Sit in a Mercedes and then sit in an Acura. Can you feel the difference? I can. (and no, I've never owned a MB). Different people have different preferences. Some might want reliability or more tech gadgets. Others might want better leather or a more solid feeling or a better handling drive. There are real reasons why people pick things, not only for prestige.

jimbres

I have an '01 BMW 330i that I bought new in June of that year. Since the factory warranty ran out, in June 2005, I've spent a grand total of $1200 on unscheduled repairs. (Most of that went toward replacing a control arm, after I drove into the biggest pothole on the East Coast. Can't really blame that on the car.)

That works out to a little over $19 per month, or about 60 cents per day. I spend more than that on coffee.

You'll find that the 3-series is a very reliable car, particularly when it's equipped according to God's wishes - with a stick.

billyperks2

Agree.

nyccarguy

About BMWs being unreliable and expensive to fix/maintain is just plain absurd. Not every car is perfect. For heaven's sake, my brother in law's Civic just had to have the engine replaced after it overheated, oil started gushing out from underneath it, and ceased (he's fanatical about preventitive maintenance). Should he go into the Civic forum here on edmunds and say how unreliable they are.

Yes, Acura gives you more bang for the buck if you are a tech guy. But the TSX is cheaper because it is built on a FWD Honda Accord chassis. A 3 series is built on a dedicated RWD platform which is more expensive to build & design.

Yes some people buy BMWs, MBs, Audis, Lexuses, Infinitis, Acuras... for the badges, but there are many who do drive them because there is a noticable difference in the steering, the brakes, the handling, the responsiveness.

smarty666

I wasn't trying to make it out that prestige was the only reason but in regards to BMW and MB, when they are similarly equipped/packaged to their Acura, Infiniti, or even Audi counterparts are chosen a lot for the prestige factor for those thousands of dollars extra. For many, its not the only reason as you pointed out. For BMW, it could be for a combo of prestige and sport performance/dynamics as to why they chose their vehicle or say for a MB it could be a combo of prestige and luxury comfort.

Personally, Audi to me, has sales similar still to Acura and Infiniti in quantity but even Audi is different from MB and BMW in that like the japanese, they have nicely priced trim levels that include a whole bunch of features so that you don't have to get really expensive option packages or pay extra for each luxury feature you want. But then again, you have the reliability factor with them so your right that there a huge set of factors, prestige being just one of them, to consider with each luxury automaker.

I've found out recently over the years, customer service at the dealership and headquarter levels is coming into a sales factor for me because some of the companies are terrible where as others are great.

sweendogy

From the sales numbers it doesn't look like many people are buying acuras at all- regardless of prestige factor you speak of. I think for 75% of these cars (in this chat) bought new are traded in within 5 years so I think the reliability factor should be discounted-unless you are looking at used. Most come with 4yr earrantee. Most keep value well regardless of reliability in this group.
I think if your looking to spend 40k on a car - you should compare what 40k buys you. A 40k BMW 335 is not going to give you the same options as a TL but will give you better performance. It's all what your looking for - performance or convenience.
On a side note I think audi a4's are way overpriced for size and performance.

roadburner

That works out to a little over $19 per month, or about 60 cents per day. I spend more than that on coffee.

My 1995 3 Series has 121,000 miles on it and the cost of scheduled maintenance and repairs(including four sets of summer/track rubber) averages a bit under 5 cents per mile. As for my wife's 2004 X3 2.5, at 101,000 miles the sole unscheduled repair has been a bad passenger SRS sensor- which was replaced under warranty. Maintenance costs are again averaging @5 cents per mile, and that takes into account the fact that I change the oil and filter twice as often as the SI system calls for. I better be looking for a good Chapter 7 attorney... :P
In contrast, my 2007 Mazdaspeed 3 has 64,000 miles on it and it has needed a
LF strut, a turbocharger, and a VVT Actuator- all before it hit 50,000 miles.

smarty666

agree sween with most, but I was only talking about the prestige factor in regards to BMW, MB, and Lexus, not Acura. Your right, Acura sales have been pretty disappointing. If they didn't have the MDX or TSX they would be in really bad shape. Now that we know they are keeping the RL, they need to focus on that and do a complete overhaul on the thing. Its killing them right now.

xeye

I drive a 2011 335i xDrive, traded in from a 2007 335xi. When I press on the accelerator, never mind stomp on it, it blows by, as if it was glued to the rails, by any Acura. I test drove both, and the performance, warranty and post-purchase feeling of complete peace leaves me with absolutely no regrets. I had really thought about driving the Super Handling what's-it-called, but the AWD handling of the xDrive is so good that it's not worth it.

Acura is good, but whether the marque will endure with serious enthusiasts is debatable.

fedlawman

Wait. Are you saying you didn't drive the TL SH-AWD?

billyperks2

Even an Acura NSX- wake up and smell the coffee before you start generalizing.

shipo

Acura NSX? Is that even a car anymore? Seriously, I thought they stopped producing that thing years ago.

billyperks2

I saw some pics of the new one, I am not sure if its going to make production.
Point is- a five year old NSX will blow the doors off a 335XI.

shipo

Let's see here, forgetting for a moment that the NSX in 2005 cost well over twice the price of a 2011 335i, comparing a purpose built two-seat sports car to a four-door family/sports sedan isn't a terribly relevant exercise. That said, my bet is that a 2011 335i SP will take it to the NSX on any number of tracks, maybe even the majority of tracks. I mean geez, a couple of years ago Honda sponsored a race on a tight road course in Japan to compare their various performance cars, and a JDM Civic SI gave the NSX all it could handle. In the end, the NSX would run away on the straights and the Civic would just reel it back in on the twisty bits.

sweendogy

dont get it.. the NSX was a supercar-- just like 5 years from now the a 2010 GTR will outdo a Bmw 3 series-

fedlawman

I've always thought a better old school "comparison" to the 335i is the Nissan 300ZX turbo.

20 years ago, Nissan built a $35,000 300 hp 3.0 litre 6 cylinder twin-turbo RWD 3500 lb. sports car. Three years ago, BMW built a 4-door version.

eclipse2

You are wrong! I have been buying Acura's from 1991 to 2008 I got sick of the no power I had the 2008 TL type s before that I had the 2006 RL and the 2007 MDX and before that 2003 TL type s the funny thing the MDX was the fastest....lol I got rid of the 2008 TL for the Lexus IS-f got rid of the 2007 MDX for the 2008MB GL550 my wifes!! and got rid of the RL for the 2010 MB E550 all these cars drive way better then any Acura can think about I was waiting for the RL to come out with a V8 back in 2009 didn't happen and then they come out with that new nose...lmao prestige has nothing to do with it getting better designs and RWD and POWER which Acura don't have..

jimbres

I have been buying Acura's from 1991 to 2008 I got sick of the no power I had the 2008 TL type s before that I had the 2006 RL and the 2007 MDX and before that 2003 TL type s the funny thing the MDX was the fastest....lol I got rid of the 2008 TL for the Lexus IS-f got rid of the 2007 MDX for the 2008MB GL550 my wifes!! and got rid of the RL for the 2010 MB E550 all these cars drive way better then any Acura can think about I was waiting for the RL to come out with a V8 back in 2009 didn't happen and then they come out with that new nose...lmao prestige has nothing to do with it getting better designs and RWD and POWER which Acura don't[sic]have..

Wow. I've been an Edmunds member since the fall of '98 - 12 years ago - & that's the longest single sentence I've ever seen here.

Congrats!

smarty666

If you had read the second post I put up, I said prestige was not the sole and only factor but it has a lot to do with the BMW and MB choices. If you don't think so then your just kidding yourself and if you looked closely at what I was comparing and talking about it was vehicles that were comparably equipped between the German and Japanese automakers. That means, same size engines, features, technology, etc. The Germans are always going to cost a few thousand more. It is more a statement of fact then opinion. That is just the way it is.

Your absolutely right that Acura currently has lacked in the hardcore sport performance offerings of RWD and V8 but not every body needs that. I certainly have no issues with performance out of my 3G TL's but not everyone is so happy and wants more. If you want sport performance with a V8 and RWD go get a BMW or Infiniti, plain and simple. That is why there are choices in the luxury market.

ivan_99

Love the 300ZX turbo...almost bought one (used).

1990 -- $35,000 = $58,000 in 2010 dollars.

I remember by mid 90's they were selling for around $50k...which = $71k in todays dollars.

Makes the 370Z look like a bargain (even the 3 series)...of course there are new features, equipment, safety on the new models...different times of course.

Wasn't cheap.

fedlawman

Same here. I wanted a 300ZX turbo bad - and later, the Supra Turbo. Every now and then, I see a super clean one on the road and still think about maybe finding one.

But you're right. The 300ZX turbo, RX7 Turbo, Supra Turbo and 3000GT were too expensive in their day. Nobody wanted to pay German money for a Japanese car. Looking back though, it's amazing how ahead of their time these cars were.

gbosil

Agreed. A buddy of mine has a 2010 335XI and just had the Steering Column replaced at 5,500 miles ? ? ? ? Huh? WTF! :lemon: I know plenty of people who own BMWs and have had nothing but problems including major electrical issues. In fact my one buddy had to keep replacing his headlight bulbs on his 330XI every 6 - 9 months or so because they kept burning out! They couldn't pinpoint what the problem was. After 50K kiss your A$$ good bye! Brakes alone are $1,500!! Run flats standard! Pony up another $1,500! Whatever good luck! :P

gbosil

LOL!

billyperks2

My co-worker had the 528I- he said the car spent half its life at dealership, he finally traded it in for the ES350.

shipo

All you folks are doing is to further the urban legends where folks say stuff like, "My brother-in-law's sister's ex-boy friend's great uncle had a problem with his BMW, therefore they're all crap!"

The fact is, every car maker has issues on occasion, Acura included (thinking transmissions here among other foibles). As a suggestion, unless you can say something positive and helpful to the group, don't say it at all.

Like it or don't, believe it or not, many-many of us have owned and driven BMWs for many tens (and even hundreds) of thousands of miles with nor or very minimal issues.

billyperks2

We have to say both- positive and negative to enlighten potential buyers.
I had the 2003 TL Type S, the car was bullet proof for 30K miles then the transmission gave way-repalced under warranty (according to dealer).

shipo

Only one transmission? I guess your car was one of the lucky ones.