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Could we include the Buick Regal in this list? Lincoln MK-whatever the entry level model is?
Though I suspect there will be dissenters; makes for a lively discussion!
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
What if 32.891% of them have an artificial leg?
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I was waffling on the Buick but with more reflection, I agree it should be part of the list. As for the MK-Z, I don't think there is enough P there. IMHO, it competes against the ES, Azera, Avalon, et al which are more ELLS'.
My next post will include the Regal and next year we can add the Jaguar XE to the list.
Audi A3 $29,900
BMW 320i $32,950
Buick Regal $29,665
Cadillac ATS $34,210
Infinti Q40 $33,950
Lexus IS250 $36,550
MB CLA $31,500
Volvo S60 $33,950
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BUUUTTT... what about the Acura ILX? And then there's that pesky issue of the lowest current bimmer and caddy being a class size above Audi and MB. Kind of puts those smaller ones at a disadvantage just because their manufacturers decided Americans were ready for smaller cars.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Why not Lincoln? 300hp, AWD, luxury brand. 180hp BMW is P and 300hp MKZ is not?? I don't care for the Lincoln all that much but is that the reason people leave it off the list......personal opinion??
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
And the LS V8 - in the early 2000s.
- Ray
Drove one for over 30,000 miles...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
When the new 1 series sedan comes to market next year, then it will replace the 320i as the base model. Soon there will be a subcompact Caddy and that will push the ATS out of the ELLPS.
IMHO, Audi and MB didn't decide Americans were ready for smaller cars. They decided that they couldn't keep the A4 and C Class that cheap.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Based on "history," I would keep the A3 and A4 in separate classes of automobiles. And, how is it that both the ATS and CTS can be ELLPS, does that mean the XTS is now the model called LPS?
One point of clarification, my inclusion of cars in this class that can be optioned to numbers deep into the $60K range is NOT the base price. It is the potential price if optioned.
Just like the 320 can have over $15,000 of options added cranking it to just south of $48K, I was suggesting the RANGE from low to high. Most folks won't go for either end, I would assume.
And, each of us brings experience to the buying of cars -- and also to our expectations of features. I cannot see a car without a backup camera, and frankly, I would think top-view is better still. It is a situation where, due to incrementalism, we get a car with, say, back up camera, and then you miss it when it is not there.
Of course, it will be made mandatory by the insurance institute due to the reduction in claims, so you'd better get one sooner rather than later. Who knows: what once were vices will soon become necessities.
But you guys have answered my question......nobody can really give a good answer other than "I don't think they handle very good". Nobody seems to have driven one based on perception. But with 300hp, AWD and supposed decent road handling it still begs the question IMO.
Acura TLX $31,445
Audi A3 $29,900
BMW 320i $32,950
Buick Regal $29,665
Cadillac ATS $34,210
Infinti Q40 $33,950
Lexus IS250 $36,550
Lincoln MKZ $35,190
MB CLA $31,500
Volvo S60 $33,950
As far as entry level, I'd agree with previous posts - it should not be the brand, or the size, it should be *luxury* and *performance*, regardless of those other factors. You could argue that the ILX doesn't have enough luxury and/or performance, and if that is the case (not necessarily agreeing with that; only for argument), then it is the TLX which is the "ELLPS" for Acura since it's got a low enough price with the requisite amount of luxury and performance. And I'd also argue that some vehicle from MB or BMW, etc., might not qualify, in spite of the marquee, if the performance and/or luxury are lacking.
JMHO.
OK - ticking all the boxes of what looked to be factory/port options - no dealer accessories AFAIK.
Acura TLX $31,445 goes to $45,720
Audi A3 $29,900 goes to $45,800 for A3 to $52,250 for S3
BMW 320i $32,950 goes to $65,700 for 335ix to $87,300 for M3
Buick Regal $29,665 goes to $37,195
Cadillac ATS $34,210 goes $57,365
Infinti Q40 $33,950 goes to $42,345
Lexus IS250 $36,550 goes to $48,845 for IS to $50,998 for IS-F
Lincoln MKZ $35,190 goes to $51,280
MB CLA $31,500 goes to $53,050 for CLA to $70,755 for CLA45 AMG
Volvo S60 $33,950 goes to $54,395
Acura TLX $31,445 goes to $45,720
Audi A3 $29,900 goes to $45,800 for A3 to $52,250 for S3
BMW 320i $32,950 goes to $65,700 for 335ix to $87,300 for M3
Buick Regal $29,665 goes to $37,195
Cadillac ATS $34,210 goes $57,365
Infinti Q40 $33,950 goes to $42,345
Lexus IS250 $36,550 goes to $48,845 for IS to $50,998 for IS-F
Lincoln MKZ $35,190 goes to $51,280
MB CLA $31,500 goes to $53,050 for CLA to $70,755 for CLA45 AMG
Volvo S60 $33,950 goes to $54,395
I think I'm getting a nosebleed...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
As for the ILX, many would say the inability to have AWD as option precludes it from being an ELLPS. If it were offered with SH-AWD, then it would be the starting point.
Lastly, someone noted that the Fusion and MKZ are based on the European Mondeo. That is incorrect. The current Mondeo was introduced after the Fusion and MKZ. The Mondeo is the exact same car as the Fusion and all 3 were engineered at the same time on a brand new platform.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
And, as for the ILX being a tarted up Civic... if we use that as criteria, then we'd have to exclude many vehicles from this list. I think about half the luxo market is just tarted up versions of lower-ranking cousins.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
As I understand it, they were engineered together as you said, but the Modeo was delayed being introduced so the Fusion/MKZ were released first.
Why was the Mondeo delayed? Many opinions, but I don't know if anyone other than Ford really knows. The old version of the Mondeo was still selling well in Europe for one thing. Fitting of the 3 cylinder engines and diesel engines all seem to be possibilities. Plus they get the Estate wagon in Europe.
2025 Forester Limited, 2024 Subaru Legacy Sport
I also think that it wasn't vital to launch a new Mondeo in 2012. The Mondeo then on sale was only 6 years old and the sales of executive saloons were dropping as CUV's started replacing them.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
No doubt about it, Acura has an image problem. I think their better products are going to slowly lure more people back into the brand, but it's going to be a slow process.
I might be a purist when it comes to driven wheels, but that doesn't mean everyone has to be...
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The ATS is ELLPS as the CTS is [now] LPS; as 3 series is ELLPS as 5 series is LPS.
Now, when the CLA and the A3 came along (and to a certain extent the ILX) we dropped from "regular fit," to "slim," and then finally to "petite" (sort of).
To some here EL is an indication of price -- but even those who go to the trouble can find the $ range for a 3 series to be from $32K to $87K.
I have -- historically -- thought of the ELLPS to be mostly a smaller version of the LPS family. Meaning size seems to (in MY mind) still be a better trait than cost. Hell, for the price of my S4, I could have had a Premium+ A6, but the size would clearly differentiate them.
I had not (and mostly still don't) considered the possibility of an A3 or CLA or ILX ever being considered for entry into the ELLPS class -- because of my [possibly wrongheaded] assertion that as nice (or expensive) as the [top o' the line] A3 family (which is called an S3) is, well, it is smaller than the already EL entrant, the A4.
Just as we bumped the CTS to the LPS class and replaced the then ELLPS CTS with the ATS, we may -- soon -- find ourselves needing to do the same thing with the ILX and A3.
Today, however, knowing only what is out there, it doesn't seem [to me] right to have both the ILX and the TLX called ELLPS cars -- just like it doesn't seem right to bracket the CLA and C Class Mercedes as ELLPS cars.
It seems that base price is the hang up -- not actual price -- for we don't seem to argue that a 5 series is an ELLPS anymore than we would argue an A6 or E class is an ELLPS -- we don't because there are model designations downstream (in both size and price).
We have (or the manufacturers have) blurred the lines somewhat -- and it will be another cycle before the cars are again (maybe) rationalized.
An ILX is an Acura.
An ILX is a tarted up Honda
A TLX has much more L + P than the ILX
There is a car model, not just a badge, below the TLX -- and that is the ILX.
Currently the same breakdown is applicable to the A3 and A4 -- but the new A4 will what? Blur the lines further or sharpen the focus, make the two more readily differentiated? Does anyone think the CTS and ATS are the same class of car -- even though the MSRP of the ATS can be made to significantly overlap the MSRP of the CTS.
And so on.
I'll settle -- internally -- for the TLX to be in the same class as the A4, 3 series and C class. I'll accept the A3 and ILX and CLA as similar classified cars. I just find it difficult to have both the A3 and A4 designated as ELLPS cars if the 3 series is in the mix -- the 3 series is marketed against the A4 and C class, not the A3 and ILX class.
I'm more willing to overlook driven wheels -- but my own money would only go for an AWD vehicle knowing what I know and living in the climate I live in. This rules the ILX out -- but keeps the TLX SH-AWD firmly in the fold.
This is getting difficult for me to keep straight.
I love these forums, and I do not want to exclude anyone from them -- but for the sake of birds of a feather, so to speak, when I want to get into one of the forums, I'm not going to venture into the full-sized pickup truck forum since my interests are probably not going to be well served there (and vice versa).
I want to hear (read) your thoughts pertaining to similar vehicles -- I'm going to gravitate toward forums where the participants are interested in and experienced with 3 series, C class, B8 Audis (A4's), TLX's Q50's, etc, etc. I don't have interest in Malibus (not that there is anything wrong with them or those who write about them) or LaCrosses or 300's or 911's or Stingrays (same). Yes a fully tarted up S3 may give rise to a legitimate question about S3's vs A4's or S4's, but generally speaking these are meant to be separate models within the Audi family.
Besides, Audi will soon be rolling out the B9 A4's which will, probably, crank up both the L and the P (and the price) further differentiating the A3 and A4 lines. Mercedes, BMW, Acura, Lexus and Infiniti will almost certainly do the same thing. Well, I think Mercedes already has with the new C class compared to the new CLA class.
In any case, there needs to be a place to go to discuss the cars that would appear to be competitive with each other. Yes, I guess it is possible for someone to shop for an ILX and drive out with a TLX SH-AWD Advance, just as it is possible to look at a 328 and drive out with a 335ix -- but, using the auto magazine comparison test reports as guides, it would be more typical for the A4 to be tested against the 3 series or the C class not the A3 tested against the C class and 3 series, etc.
My head hurts.
ILX/A3/CLA/BMW 1 class (when it arrives) would be compacts. Heck, could maybe slot in a top line Jetta! Oh wait, that is an A3... The ATS goes here too.
the "mid size" (probably a bad term) are the A4, 3 series (320/328), Volvo, TLX, Infiniti, MB C class, etc.
To further mess with your head, I don't count the HiPo models as entry level. Call them HP compact/mid-size entry level. that would be the S3/S4, M3, etc.
seems logical to me. And I don't see a problem having a couple of groupings in the entry level category. The all fit the basic criteria: A premium model, with sporting pretenses and reasonable performance to back it up, and a decent level of luxury features. Basically a step up from your basic family sedans or small cars.
and yes, just like with compact to midsize family sedans, there is cross-over in content, performance and price. You can load up an A3 to be fancier and more expensive than an A4, and absolutely people can cross-shop them. same with ILX to TLX,. Still within the ELLPS family.
I put the CTS. E class, 5 series, etc. in the next class up. I think you called them LPS (sans EL) which seems quite reasonable.
Hey, this makes sense to me.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Interesting to read, however!
Acura TLX Compact
Audi A3 Subcompact
BMW 320i Compact
Buick Regal Midsize
Cadillac ATS Compact
Infinti Q40 Compact
Lexus IS250 Compact
Lincoln MKZ Midsize
MB CLA Compact
Volvo S60 Compact
The others mentioned:
Acura ILX Compact
Audi A4 Compact
MB C Class Compact
So differentiating by size isn't going to clear the water any....
So, yes, I agree with where I think you are going ... boards that divide by class and forget this whole pesky "entry level" tag, since that obviously varies by manufacturer for the time being.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
So, does that mean we rename the acronyms?
Sub-compact Luxury And Performance (SLAP)
Compact Luxury and Performance (CLAP)
I don't know - just doesn't sound good to be aspiring to get the CLAP.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
EDIT: So it took quite a bit of searching, but it seems the CLA has 101 total cubic feet of interior volume, while the C-class sedan has 100. Go figure. Oh, and the Rapide has 97?? I give up trying to figure this out. Seems to be pretty apparent that interior volume means a whole lotta nothing.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byclass/byEPAclassNF.shtml
The EPA measure cubic footage of the seating areas. Based on that criteria, the Rapide is a subcompact. Aston designed the Rapide with 4 tight seats with a huge console running through the middle of the car. Don't blame the EPA for Aston's poor space utilization.
Many people look at a car, see a big exterior, and expect the interior to be large. Hence, interior volume is what is measured by the EPA.