Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

dino001

tlong said:

I recently rented a BMW 328, admittedly a low end model, and I was very unimpressed by the steering feel. Frankly (and seriously), our 2007 Mazda 5 microvan has much better steering feel than that BMW did.

Now that's funny . It is also sad That (lack of) steering feel is one of reasons I'm not in a big hurry to get a new one. I probably will, eventually, maybe even sooner than later, as my car is going out of warranty in six months and I also like some of the aspects of this new 435i GC, but I'm just not nearly as enthusiastic, as I should be - and the one chief reason is that steering. Every time I get into it and back into my car, I just can't believe how much they messed it up.

BTW, it's not about the car not going, where it needs to - it actually does, quite well. Probably all the electronics help it correct when you turn the wheel too much. But it's like a video game, not a real car. Some may actually like it, cornering with one finger on the wheel, I don't.

graphicguy

When I test drove the IS350 F sport, I've mentioned that I liked it quite a bit. But, like my previous TL, you have to spur it a bit into the upper revs to get any torque.

The Turbos/SC motors alleviate that. Plus, with twin turbos and twin scroll turbos, you don't have any noticeable turbo spool up lag.

They've come a long way.

BTW....got a note from my BMW dealer stating they want my 2011 335ix in trade, stating they'll make me an unbelievable offer for it.

They're a little slow when it comes dealing with me. That car was gone two cars ago.

nyccarguy

andres3 said:

nyccarguy said:

andres3 said:

I think if GM wants to be treated seriously by most buyers they are going to have to make cars that don't go into limp mode at a weekend HPDE (track event) when they are extremely low miles and unmodified such as the V6 Camaro I rented. The weather was mildly warm, never got above 85 degrees the whole weekend.

Granted, you might say the V6 Camaro with an automatic transmission isn't GM's front running "track car," but neither is the '06 A3 for Audi, and it NEVER went into limp mode at low miles or being left unmodified. Even modified and higher miles it usually only happened at temps above 90 degrees.

Now why would GM make cars that so easily are put into "limp" mode? The answer lies in previous model year rental Camaros likely BLOWING brand new transmissions and spewing fluid on the track. Solution to most car companies would be to build a better more reliable durable car with a better transmission. Solution for GM (post BK by the way) was to apparently create and/or lower threshold of going into limp mode. FAIL.

Why on Gd's Green Earth would you rent a V6 Camaro with an Automatic Transmission and take it to the track? The auto enthusiasts that track their cars are so few and far between that they barely register on manufacturers' radar. You want a Camaro suited for the track? You local Chevrolet dealer will gladly sell you a Z/28 Camaro.

Why on God's Green Earth? I'll tell you why

Some idiot in a Lexus RX 350 sidelined my 4-month old S4 by darting out of a parking lot (in an apparent left turn at exactly the wrong moment when I was going straight; colliding his front left with my front right).

He sidelined my S4 with less than a month to go for a track weekend, a track weekend I didn't want to miss being that I had missed the previous one with the club for other reasons.

Hertz (insurance rental) didn't do me any favors, in fact, they pretty much sabotaged my plans, and nearly (after over 3 weeks advance warning and notice) put me in a Buick Lacrosse. Given the choice between a Camaro RS V6 and the Buick, well, it was no choice at all. Really, they should have saved the C250 Benz for me. Most people at the track said a Focus would have been more fun to drive. I didn't end up having much fun, as the Camaro is too heavy. Next time I'll specify a Focus.

Gotcha. I remember your S4 getting hit, fixed, fixed again, & fixed some more. You fought hard (as you should have) to have your car rebuilt back to Ingolstat factory specs as was the right thing to do given that it was 4 months old and still brand new.

Now insurance covers a rental vehicle for usually a set amount $30/ day or $50/ day. That is going to pretty much get you whatever car they want to give you. Now I know for a fact, as others have said here that most rental car companies have some sort of premium collection or dream collection that would have allowed you to rent a BMW, MB, Porsche, Corvette for a premium over the $30 or $50 per day. I don't think it is reasonable to expect an insurance company to provide you with a car to be raced on a track. I also don't think it is reasonable to expect a V6 powered Camaro with an Automatic transmission (from a rental fleet no less) to perform at any level other than a pace car on the track. I could be wrong (it happens a lot) and truth be told, I've never taken any of my cars to the track. Although I did recently have all the necessary fluids (oil, brake, trans, differential) fluid along with new front pads and rotors changed on my wife's 2011 Pilot. Maybe I should bring it up to LR and see what it can do:)

benjaminh

As we all know, Hyundai not surprisingly has had some trouble selling its luxury models. An extreme example is found at my local dealer, which still has one last 2013 (!) Genesis, which I think is a demo. Not surprisingly, they are offering a huge discount on it of almost $11,000. They are also offering $8k off msrp on some 2014s. The 2013 is a fully loaded Genesis 5.0 V-8 "R-spec" model with all the options, and it can be yours for just $37k. I guess it's lot of car for the money....(maybe too much?):

http://oxmoorhyundai.com/New-2013-Hyundai-Genesis-50-R-Spec-Louisville-KY/vd/16737294

The other Hyundai dealer in town has a new 2014 Genesis with the 3.8 for $8.5k off of list, giving an internet price of $27,634. There are some Sonatas on the lot that cost more than that....

http://hyundaioflouisville.com/New-2014-Hyundai-Genesis-38-Louisville-KY/vd/19882870

roadburner

tlong said:

roadburner said:

flightnurse said:

After 25K miles no issues with steering, I guess myself and the other 500K people who have a F30 are just lucky we haven't gotten into an accident..

I've never said it's an awful car, but it does lacks a quality that used to be standard issue across the entire BMW model line. And it's a capability that I-and others on the more enthusiastic side of the automotive spectrum-think is an important facet of the driving experience. You don't, and you like your F30. That's understandable, but don't get yourself in a lather when some of us are less than enamored with the platform's driving dynamics- especially when it is fitted with the base suspension..

I recently rented a BMW 328, admittedly a low end model, and I was very unimpressed by the steering feel. Frankly (and seriously), our 2007 Mazda 5 microvan has much better steering feel than that BMW did.

Ditto for my Mazdaspeed 3.

roadburner

benjaminh said:

As we all know, Hyundai not surprisingly has had some trouble selling its luxury models. An extreme example is found at my local dealer, which still has one last 2013 (!) Genesis, which I think is a demo. Not surprisingly, they are offering a huge discount on it of almost $11,000. They are also offering $8k off msrp on some 2014s. The 2013 is a fully loaded Genesis 5.0 V-8 "R-spec" model with all the options, and it can be yours for just $37k. I guess it's lot of car for the money....(maybe too much?):

http://oxmoorhyundai.com/New-2013-Hyundai-Genesis-50-R-Spec-Louisville-KY/vd/16737294

The other Hyundai dealer in town has a new 2014 Genesis with the 3.8 for $8.5k off of list, giving an internet price of $27,634. There are some Sonatas on the lot that cost more than that....

http://hyundaioflouisville.com/New-2014-Hyundai-Genesis-38-Louisville-KY/vd/19882870

Have you ever dealt with Oxmoor Hyundai? They probably have a $9000 Mop 'n Glow ADM sticker to spring on the hapless customer...

andres3

Now insurance covers a rental vehicle for usually a set amount $30/ day or $50/ day. That is going to pretty much get you whatever car they want to give you. Now I know for a fact, as others have said here that most rental car companies have some sort of premium collection or dream collection that would have allowed you to rent a BMW, MB, Porsche, Corvette for a premium over the $30 or $50 per day. I don't think it is reasonable to expect an insurance company to provide you with a car to be raced on a track. I also don't think it is reasonable to expect a V6 powered Camaro with an Automatic transmission (from a rental fleet no less) to perform at any level other than a pace car on the track. I could be wrong (it happens a lot) and truth be told, I've never taken any of my cars to the track. Although I did recently have all the necessary fluids (oil, brake, trans, differential) fluid along with new front pads and rotors changed on my wife's 2011 Pilot. Maybe I should bring it up to LR and see what it can do:)

I don't carry rental insurance given the limitations and lack of use it would receive from me. This was a 3rd party claim, and the 3rd party insurance is obligated (legally arguable, but I think I'd win in court) a "like" vehicle. A like Vehicle to the S4 would be an M3, C63 AMG, 335is, ATS-V, cTS-V. Usually those vehicles command $$$$$ to rent.

Given the guy was underinsured, I was warned to mitigate my costs, and so I settled on a "premium" rental at $38/day. Given it was Hertz's insurance side, there's like an electric fence between insurance rentals and the exotic sport or whatever they want to call them rentals. Apparently, insurance companies don't believe you should be given a "like" vehicle unless "like" just means in size. Either that, or they don't believe premium sports cars are ever involved in accidents

I was willing to pay lots MORE for an upgrade for the 3 days I needed it for the track weekend. I even agreed to pay $75 extra per day (of my own money in addition to the base agreement) over 3 weeks before the event, and still, they couldn't come up with anything worthy. They claimed the C250 was $75/day, but when I needed it, it wasn't available. Hertz is incompetent.

Next time I'll just make another contract with another company and let the $38/day car sit idle for 3 days.

dino001

andres3 said:

, insurance companies don't believe you should be given a "like" vehicle unless "like" just means in size. Either that, or they don't believe premium sports cars are ever involved in accidents

It's not as simple. Generally, "like" vehicle does exactly mean size and arguably some comfort feature content, one could also argue for safety, but that's about it. The other party liability should do reasonable effort to allow you maintaining your lifestyle without much disruption, so if your lifestyle includes some leisure activities requiring driving, then they should in theory compensate for that, but I doubt any jury or court would be too sympathetic for weekend going 100+ mph somewhere. Moreover, are you really insured for going on track in your own contract? I'd check that, if I were you - if you hit something or somebody during such an event, you may be unpleasantly surprised by exclusion on your own insurance contract. So, if you are not even insured for that under your own contract, I can see the liable party easily weasel out of their obligation, at least their insurance. Perhaps you could sue the actual party, but good luck with that, too. It would surely do for an interesting legal precedent.

nyccarguy

benjaminh said:

The BMW 320i has 180 hp, while the 328i has 240 hp. I wondered what differences in the engine could account for that 60hp, but according to this article probably the biggest difference between the two models is in the engine software:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/670647/f30-320i-vs-328i-engines--part-number-comparison/

I know it's completely against where the market is going, but to me base BMW 320i with the 6 speed manual and few or no options seems somewhat appealing. It's closest, anyway, to what a BMW 5 series was 30 years ago, except it's a lot safer and has less steering feel.. MSRP in white with Sensatec comes to $33.9k.

"but to me base BMW 320i with the 6 speed manual and few or no options seems somewhat appealing"

I agree, but if you are going to go that route, you might as well go for a 328i with the extra hp/torque so at least your car is fast. You'll also have to special order something like that and wait 12 weeks for it. Or you could do European delivery...

flightnurse

benjaminh said:

The BMW 320i has 180 hp, while the 328i has 240 hp. I wondered what differences in the engine could account for that 60hp, but according to this article probably the biggest difference between the two models is in the engine software:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/670647/f30-320i-vs-328i-engines--part-number-comparison/

I know it's completely against where the market is going, but to me base BMW 320i with the 6 speed manual and few or no options seems somewhat appealing. It's closest, anyway, to what a BMW 5 series was 30 years ago, except it's a lot safer and has less steering feel.. MSRP in white with Sensatec comes to $33.9k.

The 320i has been dynoed and it was putting 180 to RW... This was done by Terry at BMS. Then add the BMS Stage1 which add's 3 lbs of boost you are talking about 220 RW. Right about where the 328i is at.

sweendogy

Back to renta car talk above....I think I would of went with the Buick - imagine being the guy with the Buick.....helmet in hand ..Sirius 50's station blasting

nyccarguy

@flightnurse - add the BMS Stage 1 which gets you 3 psi more boost & a voided warranty. Advantage 328i

markcincinnati

roadburner said:

flightnurse said:

After 25K miles no issues with steering, I guess myself and the other 500K people who have a F30 are just lucky we haven't gotten into an accident..

I've never said it's an awful car, but it does lacks a quality that used to be standard issue across the entire BMW model line. And it's a capability that I-and others on the more enthusiastic side of the automotive spectrum-think is an important facet of the driving experience. You don't, and you like your F30. That's understandable, but don't get yourself in a lather when some of us are less than enamored with the platform's driving dynamics- especially when it is fitted with the base suspension..

The fact that I -- to this day -- love manual transmissions and that you "and others on the more enthusiastic side" like the "quality" that the car under discussion possesses (an older model BMW) makes us, perhaps, nothing more than sentimental, not necessarily correct in our critiques. "It used to be better when -- fill in the blank -- was the rule of the day," is a perspective. It is, apparently, a perspective that is no longer a prudent point of view, however.

The reason is, of course, that BMW and all the other successful brands are doing everything, perhaps anything they can to retain and gain market share. I do believe that today's buyers are actually as enthusiastic, perhaps more so than those of yesteryear. Actually saying that and seeing it in "print" is very difficult, but I do believe it is true.

If, on the other hand, the companies that progressively and steadily abandon manual transmissions, steering feel and all the other things we unintentional (and unaware and in denial) Luddites rail on about (when we speak about the good old days from a position on high) somehow all fail, well then we can say "I told you so."

Look at the income statements (where and when they are available) of these companies -- if revenue goes up after some period of time after the manual transmission is more or less abandoned, etc, well there is at the very least a strong correlation that those of us who decry the current in favor of the past, are wrong.

As I recognize (and usually don't much care for) about myself: I am often wrong, but never uncertain.

We need to embrace the changes -- I would venture to guess that many, probably most of the changes we complain about are for the better.

Of course, I am certain.

Of course.

flightnurse

nyccarguy said:

@flightnurse - add the BMS Stage 1 which gets you 3 psi more boost & a voided warranty. Advantage 328i

Brad, it does void the warranty, and when you write info like that without having first hand knowledge only adds more issues.

cdnpinhead

It's called the lowest common denominator -- mass appeal.

Include me out.

rayainsw

Since I decided against an S3 a while back, I have rarely been to this forum. As usual, I find Markcincinnati’s posts thought-provoking. He mentions BMW [ I had one ] ‘the good old days’ [ I was there ] and steering feel, among other things.

I decided this time around to select a 2015 Dodge Charger R/T with Premium package. I will waste no time trying to fit this vehicle into whatever y’all have decided is the current definition of the ELLPS category. [ It certainly has a level of Luxury and Performance – and it is a Sedan. ]

I did look at & drive BMWs [ M235i ] and the S3 [ really nice ] but decided not to go that way, this time.

The focus and the execution of the Dodge is quite different than those models typically discussed here. It DOES, however, have good steering feel [ IMHO - electric assist, but well done ] and with the 5.7L V8, it has a very ‘good old days’ feel to the acceleration.

I will leave it there, for now – and check in periodically.
Perhaps next time, I will be in the market for an ELLPS.

- Ray
Seduced by the Hemi’s TQ this time around . . .

nyccarguy

flightnurse said:

nyccarguy said:

@flightnurse - add the BMS Stage 1 which gets you 3 psi more boost & a voided warranty. Advantage 328i

Brad, it does void the warranty, and when you write info like that without having first hand knowledge only adds more issues.

This is true. I don't have any first hand knowledge. Don't get me wrong, I do think it is cool that you modified your 320i. I'm still sticking with my position that I'd take an X1 for basically the same money with the 240 hp (from the factory) version of the N20.

qbrozen

flightnurse said:

nyccarguy said:

@flightnurse - add the BMS Stage 1 which gets you 3 psi more boost & a voided warranty. Advantage 328i

Brad, it does void the warranty, and when you write info like that without having first hand knowledge only adds more issues.

I'm a bit confused. You agree but disagree?? Unless you meant to say it does NOT void the warranty, in which case I'd like to know how you determined that. I mean, technically it does not automatically void the warranty .... but if you have any engine issues, they can deny claims based on the modification. And the folks who claim the tune can be turned off an undetectable are misinformed. Been there, done that. Luckily I had a service advisor who was willing to keep that bit of info off his report to the manufacturer when my 135i needed work.

flightnurse

qbrozen said:

I'm a bit confused. You agree but disagree?? Unless you meant to say it does NOT void the warranty, in which case I'd like to know how you determined that. I mean, technically it does not automatically void the warranty .... but if you have any engine issues, they can deny claims based on the modification. And the folks who claim the tune can be turned off an undetectable are misinformed. Been there, done that. Luckily I had a service advisor who was willing to keep that bit of info off his report to the manufacturer when my 135i needed work.

Having spoke to my SA about this and the coding the SA informed me that BMW is aware of BMS, and the 3+ lbs of boost, it is within the limits that BMW has built into the car, Dinan now offers something for the N26/20 engine which add's 4+ lbs of boost, so I guess that is within the limits of the engine too. When it comes to undetectable codes I can only go by what I have read by many on bimmerfest,

flightnurse

nyccarguy said:

This is true. I don't have any first hand knowledge. Don't get me wrong, I do think it is cool that you modified your 320i. I'm still sticking with my position that I'd take an X1 for basically the same money with the 240 hp (from the factory) version of the N20.

I'm glad you like the X1, which you could have gotten for about the same price as your current care, but the X1 is just WAY too small for me, being 6 ft there is no back seat room.

flightnurse

rayainsw said:

Since I decided against an S3 a while back, I have rarely been to this forum. As usual, I find Markcincinnati’s posts thought-provoking. He mentions BMW [ I had one ] ‘the good old days’ [ I was there ] and steering feel, among other things.

I decided this time around to select a 2015 Dodge Charger R/T with Premium package. I will waste no time trying to fit this vehicle into whatever y’all have decided is the current definition of the ELLPS category. [ It certainly has a level of Luxury and Performance – and it is a Sedan. ]

I did look at & drive BMWs [ M235i ] and the S3 [ really nice ] but decided not to go that way, this time.

The focus and the execution of the Dodge is quite different than those models typically discussed here. It DOES, however, have good steering feel [ IMHO - electric assist, but well done ] and with the 5.7L V8, it has a very ‘good old days’ feel to the acceleration.

I will leave it there, for now – and check in periodically.
Perhaps next time, I will be in the market for an ELLPS.

- Ray
Seduced by the Hemi’s TQ this time around . . .

Ray I have had many Chargers and Challengers as rental and ever since the 8 spd was installed and some of then newer tweeks they have become good cars.. Enjoy

roadburner

cdnpinhead said:

It's called the lowest common denominator -- mass appeal.

Include me out.

Precisely.

I've said this in the past more than once, but wanting a lighter and more nimble car that communicates what is going on at the contact patches does not make one a Luddite(as an aside, I design, install, and calibrate 7.1 Home Theater Systems for fun-Dolby Atmos next-and I also repair my own PC or laptop 99% of the time,). If there wasn't a market for those cars the Miata, the Boxster/Cayman, the CTS V/V Sport, the GTI, the 2 Series, and the M3/4- to name just a few-would be dying on the vine. I do think BMW knows exactly what it is doing- forcing the enthusiasts to move up the food chain to get cars that actually feel like a BMW from just five years ago. A few months ago I discussed this same issue with Jamie Kitman of Automobile And Sam Smith of Road and Track, and both agreed that it is more than a bit cynical to make customers pay extra in order to get a BMW that drives like a BMW should.

I suppose the question should be, "What makes a BMW a BMW? If the roundel and the Hofmeister kink become the only things that distinguish a BMW from other cars, Munich will eventually pay the price.

roadburner

rayainsw said:

Since I decided against an S3 a while back, I have rarely been to this forum. As usual, I find Markcincinnati’s posts thought-provoking. He mentions BMW [ I had one ] ‘the good old days’ [ I was there ] and steering feel, among other things.

I decided this time around to select a 2015 Dodge Charger R/T with Premium package. I will waste no time trying to fit this vehicle into whatever y’all have decided is the current definition of the ELLPS category. [ It certainly has a level of Luxury and Performance – and it is a Sedan. ]

I did look at & drive BMWs [ M235i ] and the S3 [ really nice ] but decided not to go that way, this time.

The focus and the execution of the Dodge is quite different than those models typically discussed here. It DOES, however, have good steering feel [ IMHO - electric assist, but well done ] and with the 5.7L V8, it has a very ‘good old days’ feel to the acceleration.

I will leave it there, for now – and check in periodically.
Perhaps next time, I will be in the market for an ELLPS.

- Ray
Seduced by the Hemi’s TQ this time around . . .

I'd take a Charger R/T with the Road and Track package over an F10 every time.

roadburner

qbrozen said:

flightnurse said:

nyccarguy said:

@flightnurse - add the BMS Stage 1 which gets you 3 psi more boost & a voided warranty. Advantage 328i

Brad, it does void the warranty, and when you write info like that without having first hand knowledge only adds more issues.

I'm a bit confused. You agree but disagree?? Unless you meant to say it does NOT void the warranty, in which case I'd like to know how you determined that. I mean, technically it does not automatically void the warranty .... but if you have any engine issues, they can deny claims based on the modification. And the folks who claim the tune can be turned off an undetectable are misinformed. Been there, done that. Luckily I had a service advisor who was willing to keep that bit of info off his report to the manufacturer when my 135i needed work.

Can you say "flash counter?" To paraphrase a post on an E90 board, You can quote Magnuson-Moss all you want, but if the turbos start whining or the HPFP acts strange BMW will claim that increasing the power over stock was the cause of the failure. They have lawyers and professionals on retainer to support their position.
Do you have a deeper wallet than BMWNA? If not, waving the Magnuson-Moss flag is pointless.
Unless of course, you do have a Service Advisor on your side...

nyccarguy

flightnurse said:

nyccarguy said:

This is true. I don't have any first hand knowledge. Don't get me wrong, I do think it is cool that you modified your 320i. I'm still sticking with my position that I'd take an X1 for basically the same money with the 240 hp (from the factory) version of the N20.

I'm glad you like the X1, which you could have gotten for about the same price as your current care, but the X1 is just WAY too small for me, being 6 ft there is no back seat room.

I wasn't aware I could have gotten an X1 for $23,800:)- My Legacy is light on options (cloth seats, slick top, no navigation). So probably for the same price as a loaded Legacy 3.6R limited I could buy an X1. For the price of most 320xi sedans sitting on dealer lots, I could factory order an X1 35i with minimal options and really have some fun on my commute:)

I would be interested in a 328xd at some point. 95% of the time it is just me in the car, just my wife in the car, or on occasion me with 1 or 2 of our 3 children (3, 6, 8). If we need MORE room, we've got the Pilot (13 months until it is paid off - YAY!)

billyperks4

"I'd take a Charger R/T with the Road and Track package over an F10 every time. "

HA HA HAAAAAA- you are a funny guy.

roadburner

billyperks4 said:

"I'd take a Charger R/T with the Road and Track package over an F10 every time. "

HA HA HAAAAAA- you are a funny guy.

Take them both to an HPDE and see who ends up laughing.

Michaell

nyccarguy said:

flightnurse said:

nyccarguy said:

This is true. I don't have any first hand knowledge. Don't get me wrong, I do think it is cool that you modified your 320i. I'm still sticking with my position that I'd take an X1 for basically the same money with the 240 hp (from the factory) version of the N20.

I'm glad you like the X1, which you could have gotten for about the same price as your current care, but the X1 is just WAY too small for me, being 6 ft there is no back seat room.

I would be interested in a 328xd at some point. 95% of the time it is just me in the car, just my wife in the car, or on occasion me with 1 or 2 of our 3 children (3, 6, 8). If we need MORE room, we've got the Pilot (13 months until it is paid off - YAY!)

Yeah, if you can stay off the lots and out of the lease question boards, you'll keep your Pilot.

flightnurse

roadburner said:

Can you say "flash counter?" To paraphrase a post on an E90 board, You can quote Magnuson-Moss all you want, but if the turbos start whining or the HPFP acts strange BMW will claim that increasing the power over stock was the cause of the failure. They have lawyers and professionals on hand to retainer up their claim.
Do you have a deeper wallet than BMWNA? If not, waving the Magnuson-Moss flag is pointless.
Unless of course, you do have a Service Advisor on your side...

So now you are using the experience from E90 and the bible for the F30?

flightnurse

nyccarguy said:

I wasn't aware I could have gotten an X1 for $23,800:)- My Legacy is light on options (cloth seats, slick top, no navigation). So probably for the same price as a loaded Legacy 3.6R limited I could buy an X1. For the price of most 320xi sedans sitting on dealer lots, I could factory order an X1 35i with minimal options and really have some fun on my commute:)

I would be interested in a 328xd at some point. 95% of the time it is just me in the car, just my wife in the car, or on occasion me with 1 or 2 of our 3 children (3, 6, 8). If we need MORE room, we've got the Pilot (13 months until it is paid off - YAY!)

Your payments would be the same if you got the X1.

roadburner

flightnurse said:

roadburner said:

Can you say "flash counter?" To paraphrase a post on an E90 board, You can quote Magnuson-Moss all you want, but if the turbos start whining or the HPFP acts strange BMW will claim that increasing the power over stock was the cause of the failure. They have lawyers and professionals on retainer to support their position.
Do you have a deeper wallet than BMWNA? If not, waving the Magnuson-Moss flag is pointless.
Unless of course, you do have a Service Advisor on your side...

So now you are using the experience from E90 and the bible for the F30?

Please explain how anything I wrote would not apply to an F30.
But since you asked: F30.bimmerpost.com

nyccarguy

Michaell said:

nyccarguy said:

flightnurse said:

nyccarguy said:

This is true. I don't have any first hand knowledge. Don't get me wrong, I do think it is cool that you modified your 320i. I'm still sticking with my position that I'd take an X1 for basically the same money with the 240 hp (from the factory) version of the N20.

I'm glad you like the X1, which you could have gotten for about the same price as your current care, but the X1 is just WAY too small for me, being 6 ft there is no back seat room.

I would be interested in a 328xd at some point. 95% of the time it is just me in the car, just my wife in the car, or on occasion me with 1 or 2 of our 3 children (3, 6, 8). If we need MORE room, we've got the Pilot (13 months until it is paid off - YAY!)

Yeah, if you can stay off the lots and out of the lease question boards, you'll keep your Pilot.

HA! You are 100% right my friend! Between the lease question board, the Incentives & Rebates menu under the Car research tab this is a very dangerous place for me to be hanging out! I also qualify for USAA rebates now too so that adds fuel to the fire. As long as I stay away from the dealership, then I'm OK.

nyccarguy

flightnurse said:

nyccarguy said:

I wasn't aware I could have gotten an X1 for $23,800:)- My Legacy is light on options (cloth seats, slick top, no navigation). So probably for the same price as a loaded Legacy 3.6R limited I could buy an X1. For the price of most 320xi sedans sitting on dealer lots, I could factory order an X1 35i with minimal options and really have some fun on my commute:)

I would be interested in a 328xd at some point. 95% of the time it is just me in the car, just my wife in the car, or on occasion me with 1 or 2 of our 3 children (3, 6, 8). If we need MORE room, we've got the Pilot (13 months until it is paid off - YAY!)

Your payments would be the same if you got the X1.

You are probably right. I drive a little more than 20K per year. Once you start figuring out leases with that kind of mileage, they start to not look so cheap anymore. I'm not completely opposed to leasing either given the right circumstances. I know my wife for instance DOES NOT like driving her Pilot. She does maybe 12K per year. I'm sure once her truck is paid for in a few years and the principle is paid down on my Legacy, she's going to want something. So I could always lease her something nice (like an E-Class, BMW 5er, or Lexus GS) and then buy it out for myself once the Legacy starts to get up there in mileage.

breld

Aaah! With such a slow couple days on the Chronic Car Buyers forum, I found everyone was over here! I used to frequent this forum ages ago, but just haven't found my way over here for awhile.

Nice discussion on BMWs - old and new.

As many of you know from the CCBA forum, I've had 3 5-series (and 5 3-series - isn't that funny? ) - an E39, an E60 and most recently, an F30. The E39 and E60 were manual transmissions - a 2002 530i sport and a 2007 530xi. Loved both - still miss and regret a bit giving up the E39. I don't have the experience or knowledge to speak intelligently about what makes such a car feel the way it does (like @roadburner and others here), but I do "get it."

I went into the F10 knowing what it was, and what it wasn't. I certainly wasn't expecting anything like the E39. I loved the styling (particularly with the M-sport package), the pull of the engine (535i) and the comfortable and luxurious ride. In the relatively short time I had it, I appreciated those attributes for my long commute.

But, alas, my yearning for something with more feel to it (not to mention the manual transmission), won out and I bought my Mazda3 a couple weeks ago.

The look on my friends and co-workers' faces when I say I traded in my BMW for the Mazda is priceless. They're used to me trading out cars on a regular basis, but this switch just has them speechless. I kind of have my response down pat at this point - "I appreciate all kinds of cars, and was missing a sportier feel, manual...etc. etc." They feel better when I say I already have my next BMW picked out, but need to wait a couple years for it to come down in price.

qbrozen

flightnurse said:

Having spoke to my SA about this and the coding the SA informed me that BMW is aware of BMS, and the 3+ lbs of boost, it is within the limits that BMW has built into the car, Dinan now offers something for the N26/20 engine which add's 4+ lbs of boost, so I guess that is within the limits of the engine too. When it comes to undetectable codes I can only go by what I have read by many on bimmerfest,

Well, that's cool. I'd get it in writing, though. It is one thing to have a factory-authorized tune installed by the dealer, and another to do it yourself at home, regardless of the programming parameters. Upping the boost is but a portion of the big picture.

qbrozen

roadburner said:

Can you say "flash counter?"

He told me there are at least 3 levels of information stored in the car's computer. The first level that you can basically read through the car's OBC, the second that requires the dealer's proprietary equipment, and a 3rd that only regional reps can access. Even with what they could read, the car had been logging all instances of boost going beyond stock limits. He was pretty sure the regional rep could get much more detailed info than that.

After they read the car, he came right back and said "OK, so you obviously have a tune. Which one?" D'oh!! But, like I said, he was cool about it.

roadburner

qbrozen said:

roadburner said:

Can you say "flash counter?"

He told me there are at least 3 levels of information stored in the car's computer. The first level that you can basically read through the car's OBC, the second that requires the dealer's proprietary equipment, and a 3rd that only regional reps can access. Even with what they could read, the car had been logging all instances of boost going beyond stock limits. He was pretty sure the regional rep could get much more detailed info than that.

After they read the car, he came right back and said "OK, so you obviously have a tune. Which one?" D'oh!! But, like I said, he was cool about it.

Back when Erik Wensberg was BMW M Brand Manager he told me a story about a 5 speed E36 M3 that had been flat bedded into a dealership. The owner-whose previous car was an Oldsmobile-said he was simply "driving down the interstate at 65 mph when the car just died". Unfortunately for the owner(and his wallet), the DME was interrogated and it revealed a final engine speed in excess of 9000 rpm.
Missing a shift is seldom cheap...

markcincinnati

Could I ask the question: what (now, today) is an ELLPS?

I assume the following are likely / usual suspects, eh?

Acura TLX (and the TL from X number of years backwards); ILX, not yet, TSX was a mistake to include previously, so no.
Audi A4/S4, allroad, and possibly the Q/SQ 5 derivatives and this includes anything under the heading B8 (and soon to be B9 designation); can't figure out if the A3/S3 has any halo effect, yet, that would allow it to be included.
BMW 3's of all flavors and iterations (which would, by definition include M's), and the X3, not sure about the X1
Cadillac ATS -- all variations; CTS excluding the current generation/iteration (or is that wrong?)
Infiniti Q50's all variants; previous gen, too.
Lexus IS (all variants)
Mercedes CLA's and C class (all variants) -- not sure about the CLA's
Volvo "X" 60's -- all of them, S60, XC60, etc.

My buddy thinks KIA and Hyundai also offer viable entrants into this group -- at this point, I do disagree,

We may have such an active board due to the fact that we continue to have such a wide, er, tolerance of brands.

Eh?

m6user

Buick Regal GS and Lincoln MKZ?  Buick is more a premium brand as it stands below Cadillac but Lincoln is surely recognized as the luxury division of FoMoCo.  Dodge is certainly not a luxury brand but Chrysler could be considered, like Buick, a premium brand but wouldn't be considered a luxury brand.  Just because a car has a bunch of electronic bells and whistles and stitching on cheap leather doesn't make it a luxury brand.  Many cars are luxurious to a degree but it doesn't make the brand a luxury brand.  Most people don't perceive Hyundai and Kia to be equal to Chevy or Ford let alone be considered a luxury brand.  Granted, they may be equal to Chevy and Ford at this point but the majority perception IMO doesn't put them there.  Perception is reality in the world we live in.  

What are not ELLPS?  2dr hardtops(Mustangs, etc) and SUVs/CUVs(Q5s, etc.).       

graphicguy

There's a confluence of car brands that are starting to blur the lines of ELLS.

Where previously, it was defined by a 3 series, BMW has been attacked on all sides with worthy (and sometimes better) competitors. Throw in the C Class and A4 for good measure.

Can you really say that a Dodge Charger with a honkin' Hemi with probably the best GPS in the biz, real leather, all the safety gizmos on the planet can't really be considered a compettor to an M3? Just because the Dodge is less expensive, does that mean it isn't built as well, using as good or better materials than the German rivals? It seems Mercedes is trying to convince everyone that their vinyl is somehow superior to leather. Nice try, but I've felt it, smelled it, sat on/in it. It's not as good as leather, regardless of what the marketers say.

I think it's expanded. Buick could sneak in there.

Acura TLX? Sure. ILX? Debateable. Q50? Yep. Q40? Well, that's just a renamed G, which is well past its expiration date.

Lexus IS? Why not? ES? Sure. NX? CT? Not so sure about those last two.

ATS? That's the ELLPS darline right now, so that's definitely in.

A4\S4...Yep!

A6/CTS/E Class/5 Series? Probably slotted above any of those that have already been mentioned.

I don't even know anyone....even a remote someone...who owns an Infiniti M. So, not so sure that should be included.

Again, blurred lines.

roadburner

graphicguy said:

There's a confluence of car brands that are starting to blur the lines of ELLS.

Where previously, it was defined by a 3 series, BMW has been attacked on all sides with worthy (and sometimes better) competitors. Throw in the C Class and A4 for good measure.

Can you really say that a Dodge Charger with a honkin' Hemi with probably the best GPS in the biz, real leather, all the safety gizmos on the planet can't really be considered a compettor to an M3? Just because the Dodge is less expensive, does that mean it isn't built as well, using as good or better materials than the German rivals? It seems Mercedes is trying to convince everyone that their vinyl is somehow superior to leather. Nice try, but I've felt it, smelled it, sat on/in it. It's not as good as leather, regardless of what the marketers say.

I think it's expanded. Buick could sneak in there.

Acura TLX? Sure. ILX? Debateable. Q50? Yep. Q40? Well, that's just a renamed G, which is well past its expiration date.

Lexus IS? Why not? ES? Sure. NX? CT? Not so sure about those last two.

ATS? That's the ELLPS darline right now, so that's definitely in.

A4\S4...Yep!

A6/CTS/E Class/5 Series? Probably slotted above any of those that have already been mentioned.

I don't even know anyone....even a remote someone...who owns an Infiniti M. So, not so sure that should be included.

Again, blurred lines.

Agree 100%.

sweendogy

If the ELPps is supposed to be entry level you can exclude most mentioned above. The said above companies are using lower letters /numbers for a reason. A3,ats, ILX- sure others I think need to be adjusted - price should matter along with what the manufacturer is telling you.

markcincinnati

One response: concerning the IS but not the ES. The P in ELLPS (and LPS) stands for? Performance. There is nothing about the ES that could even remotely be called "performance" if the assumption includes the ability to (quoting my wife) "go like a snake in a rat hole." The ES can't even go like the rat in the metaphor if you axe me.

The possible reason for [my] not including some of the cars in the fold is that they don't offer much "L" or "P" or not enough to notice. The Buick Regal, was an oversight on my part -- since it can be somewhat low on the P side, but so can an A4 or a 3 series -- I do think the ATS is a better GM example of something that can be included as a full on ELLPS, but I think I will give the Regal at least the designation as a Near-ELLPS.

The action, today, does seem to be in the realm of things that can be called ELLPS or NELLPS -- sure there are better Luxury cars and better Performance cars than those that fit into the universe of ELLPS offerings; but if you have a $45K-$65K car-buying budget, your choices are both deep and wide in the ELLPS designation.

Since LPS cars, these days, seem to have a plus size requirement, I am less and less tempted by the LPS models out there. I do wish my S4 was a bit bigger, but the A6 occupies just way too much real estate these days. I am hopeful the next gen B's from Audi (B9) figure out how to be about 10% bigger overall.

But, I wouldn't kick an S6 outta bed for eatin' crackers -- hell, I'd even bring the crackers.

stickguy

I still can't grasp a $50K car (or more) qualifying for the EL piece (entry level). Which is why an S4 to me is not in the class. An A3 (or A4) could be. a 320i, yes, a loaded 335? no.

flightnurse

stickguy said:

I still can't grasp a $50K car (or more) qualifying for the EL piece (entry level). Which is why an S4 to me is not in the class. An A3 (or A4) could be. a 320i, yes, a loaded 335? no.

This is why the definition of what a ELLPS really is, each one of us has out own criteria, we have beat this topic to death... But I do think there is a blurring line between ELLS and ELLPS at times.

sweendogy

I agree the 335 could not be included becSue it's not entry level same with s4.. Ie cheaper . The "el cheapo" (not my term), a3, buicks whatever, ilx, maybe the 328 and lower a4, the infini g37, Volvo s (or whatever it's called, weird dash) - I think price has to be included. The Lexus IS "el cheapo" 250 should only be included if you want a passionless car. Performance and Price right- ???

graphicguy

OK...if we're setting rules...$45K MSRP upper limit? Audi, BMW, Buick, Cadillac, Infiniti, Lincoln, Mercedes, Porsche, Volvo are the brands?

Michaell

graphicguy said:

OK...if we're setting rules...$45K MSRP upper limit? Audi, BMW, Buick, Cadillac, Infiniti, Lincoln, Mercedes, Porsche, Volvo are the brands?

I gotta ask - which Porsche model retails for under $45K and is a sedan?

stickguy

none.

tlong

graphicguy said:

OK...if we're setting rules...$45K MSRP upper limit? Audi, BMW, Buick, Cadillac, Infiniti, Lincoln, Mercedes, Porsche, Volvo are the brands?

Acura?