Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

ab348

The C300 with the Turbo 4 is their volume seller. The 400 has a V6 and here in Canada is $8400 more than the 300.

sweendogy

Saw the older body coupe amg C63? (65?) today in a flat gray - sitting in traffic right infringe of me - I could not keep my eyes off the quad exhausts. Car was prob newer then mine but body showing its age a bit- but will continue to look great 10-15 years down the line.

flightnurse

So Acura is on a roll, here is info on the 2016 ILX, interesting....

stickguy

decent upgrades. New engine certainly gonna help. Though not that much distinction from the TLX. Kind of surprised they didn't follow the trend and distinguish it by going with a 1.6 turbo or some such.

ab348

The first ILX was DOA, so anything will help. Still difficult to shake the tarted-up Civic stigma though.

stickguy

To me it seemed nothing like a civic though. Just not very fast.

brian125

@markcincinnati

Went to the Audi dealer 3 weeks ago to test drive a Q7 and wound up driving the S6. WOW

What's your thoughts on the 2015, S6. Test drove the car twice really impressed with it. Nothing comes close to the excitement with this bad boy. My only problem is interior room getting in and out and the 80k price.

The S6 I drove on the lot had the 19' tires. Handling and taking turns were incredible. I want to upgrade to 20' tire and rims. I like that whole look but I'm afraid I may lose some of the ride and handling/ . Dealer claims I wont notice much of a difference. Thoughts.

flightnurse

ab348 said:

The first ILX was DOA, so anything will help. Still difficult to shake the tarted-up Civic stigma though.

The Intergra and RSX had no problems shaking the Civic stigma.

flightnurse

brian125 said:

@markcincinnati

Went to the Audi dealer 3 weeks ago to test drive a Q7 and wound up driving the S6. WOW

What's your thoughts on the 2015, S6. Test drove the car twice really impressed with it. Nothing comes close to the excitement with this bad boy. My only problem is interior room getting in and out and the 80k price.

The S6 I drove on the lot had the 19' tires. Handling and taking turns were incredible. I want to upgrade to 20' tire and rims. I like that whole look but I'm afraid I may lose some of the ride and handling/ . Dealer claims I wont notice much of a difference. Thoughts.

Test drive a BMW 550i, Since BMW really doesn't have a car to directly compete with the S6, some would say a 535 would be close, but I think a 550i is closer, but the BMW would be faster. For 75K you get a car faster with roughly the same equipment.

In regards to the Q7, we are looking at the Q5, and have test driven a VW Touareg which is equal to the Q7 in size. We liked it, but VW has really dummy downed the Touareg as far as equipment goes. Nav is not in the same league, voice control the same issue, but the fit and finish was on par with Audi.

brian125

Both Q's 5 and 7 are nice.......... but pricey

The 535 was nice but not in the same league as the S6. . I drove a 14, 550i........... its a little bigger inside and has 20 more ponies than Audi's 420 h/p. Again I felt the S6 rode and handled better.

Problem with BMW is here in the NY/ NJ area cant get to many dealerships to come down off MSRP right now where Audi will deal closer to Invoice price.

ab348

flightnurse said:

ab348 said:

The first ILX was DOA, so anything will help. Still difficult to shake the tarted-up Civic stigma though.

The Intergra and RSX had no problems shaking the Civic stigma.

They didn't look like one either.

ab348

flightnurse said:

In regards to the Q7, we are looking at the Q5, and have test driven a VW Touareg which is equal to the Q7 in size. We liked it, but VW has really dummy downed the Touareg as far as equipment goes. Nav is not in the same league, voice control the same issue, but the fit and finish was on par with Audi.

Have you driven the Porsche Macan? I understand that it can be very competitive with the Q5.

flightnurse

brian125 said:

Both Q's 5 and 7 are nice.......... but pricey

The 535 was nice but not in the same league as the S6. . I drove a 14, 550i........... its a little bigger inside and has 20 more ponies than Audi's 420 h/p. Again I felt the S6 rode and handled better.

Problem with BMW is here in the NY/ NJ area cant get to many dealerships to come down off MSRP right now where Audi will deal closer to Invoice price.

There are ways, on the BMW forum I'm on they have Forum sponsors who always sell at invoice or below plus other incentives that BMW might have. I believe right now on 5 series there is a 2K rebate.

flightnurse

ab348 said:

Have you driven the Porsche Macan? I understand that it can be very competitive with the Q5.

The least expensive Macan that Scottsdale Porsche has is $75K, that isn't a turbo model either.. So not too sure how competitive it really is with the Q5...

brian125

Audi has a 1500 dollar loyalty bonus for owners of a Bmw , MB, Lexus which I qualify for. Looks like BMW has a 2k incentive also. This just might be a Dec. to........ Remember

ab348

flightnurse said:

ab348 said:

Have you driven the Porsche Macan? I understand that it can be very competitive with the Q5.

The least expensive Macan that Scottsdale Porsche has is $75K, that isn't a turbo model either.. So not too sure how competitive it really is with the Q5...

This is a Canadian comparison, but their Macan was cheaper than the (loaded) Q5:

http://www.autos.ca/car-comparisons/comparison-test-2015-porsche-macan-s-2014-audi-sq5/?all=1

kyfdx

In the US, the Macan is about the same price as the SQ5..

flightnurse

So with people talking about the Audi S6 here is a Car and Driver quick drive of a Audi 2016 S6.

flightnurse

kyfdx said:

In the US, the Macan is about the same price as the SQ5..

A base Macan at that...

jwilliams2

Spent some time driving my son's Macan recently, and was amazed with the handling and performance. His was about $65K. Has everything I would want. Very impressive. Only drawback was the 4 month wait time between ordering and delivery, which I understand is even longer now.

kyfdx

flightnurse said:

kyfdx said:

In the US, the Macan is about the same price as the SQ5..

A base Macan at that...

A base Macan is comparably equipped to an SQ5.. Similar 340 HP turbo-six engines.. But, good luck finding any Porsche without $15K of options..

flightnurse

kyfdx said:

flightnurse said:

kyfdx said:

In the US, the Macan is about the same price as the SQ5..

A base Macan at that...

A base Macan is comparably equipped to an SQ5.. Similar 340 HP turbo-six engines.. But, good luck finding any Porsche without $15K of options..

I thought the SQ had a supercharged V6 like the S4 and S6 have?

kyfdx

flightnurse said:

kyfdx said:

flightnurse said:

kyfdx said:

In the US, the Macan is about the same price as the SQ5..

A base Macan at that...

A base Macan is comparably equipped to an SQ5.. Similar 340 HP turbo-six engines.. But, good luck finding any Porsche without $15K of options..

I thought the SQ had a supercharged V6 like the S4 and S6 have?

That's correct. SQ5 is supercharged, Macan is turbocharged.

sweendogy

@flightnurse‌ the s6 has a 8 not a 6- and it's twin turboed - FYI
- 2015 they made it better- check it out below

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-audi-s6-first-drive-review

markcincinnati

Some quick (for me) follow ups:

Equipped pretty much to the max, the SQ5 (Prestige) will be in the $60's. A "nicely equipped," but hardly Porsche equipped pretty much to the max will be close to $10K more. My Audi dealer says the Porsche will be almost $15K more "similarly" loaded.

I don;t know how accurate that latter claim is, but the Macan S can easily go well into the $70's and the Macan Turbo can pass $100K -- but it will be about a half second quicker than the S and the SQ5.

The US SQ5 is also sold only with a set ground clearance, and the Macan is both lower and can be had with an adjustable suspension.

Those who want more headroom, too, will consider the SQ5 since its proportions are more generous for rear seat passengers and their stuff. I thought the two cars were redundant, and I can still convince myself of that, but I can also see the Macan appealing to a different audience, but then, at the price, the Macan is now able to actually be more expensive than a Cayenne.

I'd test them both unless you have a specific purpose that only one or the other fulfills.

The SQ5 does have more HP and torque, and an 8 speed non-dsg transmission -- to the Macan's 7-spd PDK.

Both are very fine examples of excess -- in a CUV suit. We have 25,000 miles on our SQ5 -- and would get another in a heartbeat and we have driven both cars; we like the higher ground clearance of the Audi and the nearly $10,000 lower price is a plus too.

The S6, at its price, doesn't seem to have an analog from the other Germans. The BMW 535 doesn't even come close and the 550 isn't as sticky as the S6 (thanks to quattro).

I can't really call the S6 a bargain, but it does offer the buyer more content for the MSRP than the BMW. I'd avoid the 20" wheels, but that is a personal choice.

I floored the S6 and counted to 3 -- when I looked down I had gone beyond 100MPH from about 60. Nothing I've driven (other than a Corvette) even comes a little bit close.

The S6, to me, seems just a bit too big, just like my S4 seems a bit too small -- so I look forward to a larger S4, although the S6 is my "lust for" car.

The least talked about "car" if you axe me, is the SQ5 -- it is a vehicle that deserves a bit more exposure. Too bad the Macan is likely to steal the show, being that it is, after all, a Porsche.

brian125

When I was at the Audi dealership I was talking to a guy getting a oil change on his SQ5. Absolutely loves this vehicle. Claims the ride and handling is phenomenal. price tag was up there thou. Didn't actually see one there.

I find the S6 a little smaller inside for me. At 6'1 with 2 back surgery's under my belt and weighting closer to a quarter pounder with cheese area these days Car size, getting in and out is priority. In a perfect world I would love the S8 interior dimensions in the size of a S-6 but with a S6 price tag. That being said my dilemma which probably is not a bad one is replacing my 13, R-spec Genesis for a S6, or trading my 2012, BMW X-5 with 30k miles and buying the Q-7.

I originally went to dealership to test drive the Q7 and wound up driving a 2015, S-6. I Love this vehicle or lust for it............ maybe both.. This car is the total package. So I'm either going for 2 shots in the ribs for a Hyundai trade in or 1 hard slap in the face for the X-5. I'm hoping my golf buddy takes my X-5 off my hands. Then my decision will be a lot easier.

Such problems around the holidays for us car lovers. Probably why strokes are up holiday time.

markcincinnati

Long (food-centric) holiday weekends are for cooking, dining out (and over eating), going to places in your city you haven’t been to for years, movies, more movies . . . and test driving new cars (regardless of the possibility you would ever buy one).

The following list of – hopefully descriptive – terms, apply to the latter activity, or better said apply as descriptive terms of the test-driven car, this past Friday (the day after the food coma).

Clarification of the terms, that is how they may be applied, is noted (in parentheses):

-Aroused (you don’t start this car, you press the button on the console and it is “aroused”)

-Audacious

-Bland-looking (dashboard)

-Brutish

-Close (front seat)

-Cramped (back seat)

-Crude-ish

-Dart-y

-Expensive (unfortunately, equipped as it apparently needs to be equipped, it is easily 10-15% too much money for a car that has luxury intentions but doesn’t deliver much luxury despite its long list of features)

-Fast (as in, “How fast would you like to go sir, I can manage 150 if that would be sufficient.”)

-Firm (harsh-es kinder gentler side; this car is capable of firm only on the smoothest of road surfaces and/or above 85MPH)

-Fun (to drive for relatively short distances)

-Harsh (on secondary roads you are punished over every patched pot-hole you drive over, pounded by every expansion joint you meet and slammed when you drive over the various undulations presented by our aging highway infrastructure)

-Jittery (think hum while strumming your lips)

-Loud (road noise, wind noise is minimal)

-Minimalist (the large expanse of black plastic on the section of the dash in front of the passenger isn’t exactly cheap looking, no, it’s not that, it just looks boring, unimaginative, perhaps like there is some carbon fiber or brushed aluminum trim piece that was accidentally omitted)

-Nervous (the car, not me)

-Nimble (turns like a go-kart)

-Noisy (not much isolation from the engine or the road – makes conversation at speed require LOUD TONES even for the two front-seat passengers; I could imagine it would require yelling for back-seat passengers to hear or to be heard)

-Powerful (not quite OMG, but very much like a two-year old V8 Mustang, in fine tune)

-Precise (I imagine it feels like a Swiss watch, if you could actually drive one, that is)

-Punishing (see harsh above, but add to it a couple of kidney punches thrown in just so you don’t get the impression this car could be, in any way, considered supple)

-Quality (the feel of the switchgear is like a German chef’s knife in your hand – makes other knives (and other cars) feel just a tad bit of a lesser tool)

-Quick (dart-y could have sufficed, and “quick” is not the same as “fast” – this car is seriously quick at 0-62 in 4.7 seconds)

-Raucous (the road and tire noise would argue against a cross-country trip in this car)

-Raw (I guess I need to point out that it is also – in some ways – refined (see below), at least in terms of the power-train)

-Refined (the fit and finish are great, the doors close with nary even a hint of a tinny sound, everything is solid)

-Responsive

-Rough (you probably could have deduced this by now, but I need you to know that this only applies to the ride – the engine is like buttah)

-Sensitive (have you ever seen an old movie about a safe-cracker; you know the guy who sandpapers his fingertips before he begins turning the dial – his fingertips are sooo sensitive he can “feel” the tumblers falling into place; well, this car is sanded fingertips sensitive)

-Slick (the transmission, although “only” a six-speed, this transmission mates nicely with the smooth, powerful engine)

-Smooth (the engine)

-Solid (like a brick, you know what)

-Sonorous (the engine – ok, here’s a preliminary reveal – you would not be blamed if you thought this engine was a 6 or 8 cylinder with an old-fashioned air-sucking, honking wildly, air-intake; but you’d be wrong, this engine is the devil’s own 4-banger, avert your eyes, carry garlic cloves and cover yourself with wolfs bane just in case)

-Stiff (harsh-es kinder, gentler, cousin)

-Sublime (the seats are so good in this car they could almost make you forget its boy-racer characteristics)

-Tense (this thing is really on-edge once it is put in gear)

-Tight (jam up and jelly tight – I never knew what that meant in the song, but it seems to fit here)
[I've been told Jam up and Jelly tight is a sexual reference, so I'll let it stand]

-Tiring (again, lovely car to drive about 20 miles, maybe even 25 miles; just not the kind of thing you’d want to take long trip – even of a 100 miles – in repeatedly. . . you’d just be worn out from the, er, Sturm und Drang

-Twitchy

-Urgent

-Unyielding

-Violent

-Visceral

-Wearying (see tiring – in short this is a $50,000 go-kart; and, there is nothing wrong with that, but I think, given the car’s lack of Premium-ness, I’d go for the Subie WRX and pocket the difference).

Much to like, a bit less not to like, but overall “at these prices” you do have the choice of giving yourself kidney punches and endure about the same cacophony (maybe less, even) in the Subaru WRX.

The car in question?

A 2015 Audi S3 with the Prestige and Sport packages, plus the upgraded seats, trim and premium paint.

I so wanted to love this car – and I must compliment Audi on figuring out how to make a 4 cylinder growl and snarl -- and yes I know it is partially the work of the audio system, but who cares? (all the while being as smooth as silk) like a Mustang V8 (circa 2012) – but the thing, as fun as it is to drive for a relatively short distance, just doesn’t feel like it is a Premium Class car (beyond the interlocking 4 rings on the front and rear) – it feels like what I imagine Subaru is shooting for and largely doing (but for a lot less money) with their current WRX's.

The Audi’s 19” wheels and tires may well be the culprit, but the almost total lack of sound deadening (well, OK, not really) just doesn’t do it for me (especially when the thing is north of $50K). Getting out of an S3 and then driving off in an S4 is like night and day. The S4 may be more isolated, better at mastering road imperfections and designed to press your kidneys rather than punch them, and that’s what makes even the “old” tech 2015 S4 still a bunch more car for just a little more money and the S4 actually feels and looks like the 4-rings suggest it ought to feel and look like.

Oh, BTW, the S3 has fantastic LED headlights – and the thing is a looker. But $50,000+? Nah.


Keep on driving it like YOU live. I couldn't live with this car -- dammit!

billyperks4

UBER Car

So Mark- I followed your advise and got the Uber car

BMW 535 XI
Dark Graphite Metallic with the Oyster and Black Interior
Sport (Not the M Sport)
Cold
Premium 1 & 2

So far so good- time will tell.

flightnurse

billyperks4 said:

UBER Car

So Mark- I followed your advise and got the Uber car

BMW 535 XI
Dark Graphite Metallic with the Oyster and Black Interior
Sport (Not the M Sport)
Cold
Premium 1 & 2

So far so good- time will tell.

What year?

billyperks4

2012-like new.
The the previous owner had a 2 yr lease and it seems as if they kept the car in their garage.

roadburner

Sill looking. The only BMW under $65k that doesn't bore me to tears is the M235i; equipped the way I want(just CWP, H-K, and no hole in the roof) it is a tick over $47k- and that's not counting at least $2.8k for the mandatory port installed locking diff.

I want RWD and three pedals so that rules out Ingolstadt and Stuttgart. And I'm not a fan of Cadillac's "Origami Snowplow" design language.

I might go in an entirely different direction...

graphicguy

roadburner said:

Sill looking. The only BMW under $65k that doesn't bore me to tears is the M235i; equipped the way I want(just CWP, H-K, and no hole in the roof) it is a tick over $47k- and that's not counting at least $2.8k for the mandatory port installed locking diff.

I want RWD and three pedals so that rules out Ingolstadt and Stuttgart. And I'm not a fan of Cadillac's "Origami Snowplow" design language.

I might go in an entirely different direction...

So maybe something like a 6.4l Challenger, perhaps?

roadburner

Well, that or maybe a 370Z NISMO- I've become the cross-shopper from Hell!

billyperks4

Just Zainoed up the 535-, the Dark Graphite really looks amazing with the Zaino.
Tints going on this weekend-20% rear and 30% front.

graphicguy

roadburner said:

Well, that or maybe a 370Z NISMO- I've become the cross-shopper from Hell!

Both would be good choices. C&D just had a nice write up about the Challenger....saying it could run with anything. But, it belies its size and weight in doing so.

Aways liked the Z cars. I had one a long time ago. Have toyed with getting another ever since. Last time I came close I ended up with an RX8 because the Nissan dealers were all acting like asses.

Trade rags have liked the S3, except they all say it would be hard to make it a daily driver because of how harsh the suspension is, and how uncomfortable the seats are.

Billy...nice pick up with the 535. I went a step up from ELLPS and ended up with a CTS, like you with you with your 5. These cars are bringing "game" to that A6, E Class segment.

robr2

billyperks4 said:

Just Zainoed up the 535-, the Dark Graphite really looks amazing with the Zaino.
Tints going on this weekend-20% rear and 30% front.

TINTS IS NOT A WORD.

It's TINT!!!

brian125

I find P21s carnauba wax just as good as Zaino's wax if not better. P21s has less steps to wax. Goes on and off effortless. Makes dark looking vehicle look like a sheet of glass. Been using this wax for 20 years.

http://www.autopia-carcare.com/p21-127.html#.VIY0MJUtDcs

carnaught

brian125 said:

I find P21s carnauba wax just as good as Zaino's wax if not better. P21s has less steps to wax. Goes on and off effortless. Makes dark looking vehicle look like a sheet of glass. Been using this wax for 20 years.

http://www.autopia-carcare.com/p21-127.html#.VIY0MJUtDcs

Holy jar-ful Batman, $28/ jar. S&H, and labor extra!

brian125

carnaught .......................You'll get a kick out of this capped crusader.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/13095-face-off-p21s-100-vs-z2pro-review-w-pics.html

roadburner

carnaught said:

brian125 said:

I find P21s carnauba wax just as good as Zaino's wax if not better. P21s has less steps to wax. Goes on and off effortless. Makes dark looking vehicle look like a sheet of glass. Been using this wax for 20 years.

http://www.autopia-carcare.com/p21-127.html#.VIY0MJUtDcs

Holy jar-ful Batman, $28/ jar. S&H, and labor extra!

That's not that bad- I use Zymol HD-Cleanse followed by Zymol Carbon/Japon/Rouge if I'm showing a car...

carnaught

brian125 said:

carnaught .......................You'll get a kick out of this capped crusader.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/13095-face-off-p21s-100-vs-z2pro-review-w-pics.html

Bap! Nice shine.

graphicguy

The other Zaino advantage is no white marks on unpainted parts, in addition to its much better durability.

roadburner

graphicguy said:

roadburner said:

Well, that or maybe a 370Z NISMO- I've become the cross-shopper from Hell!

Both would be good choices. C&D just had a nice write up about the Challenger....saying it could run with anything. But, it belies its size and weight in doing so.

Aways liked the Z cars. I had one a long time ago. Have toyed with getting another ever since. Last time I came close I ended up with an RX8 because the Nissan dealers were all acting like asses.

Trade rags have liked the S3, except they all say it would be hard to make it a daily driver because of how harsh the suspension is, and how uncomfortable the seats are.

Billy...nice pick up with the 535. I went a step up from ELLPS and ended up with a CTS, like you with you with your 5. These cars are bringing "game" to that A6, E Class segment.

The 6.4(392) SRT Challenger has some significant upgrades to the suspension- not to mention a more usable power curve. It is a bit overweight- but so is the F10 5er- and when I drive the SRT I don't feel like I'm piloting a Bavarian Town Car.

I need to do a bit more research on the NISMO; Car and Driver wrecked one at their Lightning Lap a few years ago- the brakes went MIA. Apparently the brakes get so hot that it will even boil fresh ATE DOT4 fluid. Can't have that...

billyperks4

Robr2- In this country we have a tendency to pluralize.

Graph-- It was difficult to part with the TL after 5+ years, but all good things come to an end.
The 5 so far is amazing in regards to creature comfort and driving dynamics, I use to knock the Germans but I am now slowly drifiting if I may say- an ardent fan.

stickguy

Well, brakes are easily upgradable at least. Easier than engines!

roadburner

stickguy said:

Well, brakes are easily upgradable at least. Easier than engines!

True enough, but NISMO is the "Halo" high performance model- just like AMG, ///M, Mazdaspeed, SRT, or Shelby. I balk at paying to upgrade the brakes after I've already paid a premium for the NISMO model...

graphicguy

Billy.....I like the 5...,especially as a 535. Different class of car than the TL.

5 years from now you can say you like it, too.

RB....would be interested to hear your impressions of both the NISMO Z as well as the SRT.

roadburner

gg- Will do!!!

robr2

billyperks4 said:

Robr2- In this country we have a tendency to pluralize.

Well I'm in Boston so in this country, the word tint is not pluralized.

It's a pet peeve of mine. I know that boy racers like to use words like tintZ, rimZ, et al. That doesn't make it a real word.

roadburner

robr2 said:

billyperks4 said:

Robr2- In this country we have a tendency to pluralize.

Well I'm in Boston so in this country, the word tint is not pluralized.

It's a pet peeve of mine. I know that boy racers like to use words like tintZ, rimZ, et al. That doesn't make it a real word.

My pet peeve is calling wheels "rims." Moronic.