Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

smarty666

Then your not a smart private seller. Who knows what conditions you had your vehicles in. Plus, when you deal with private sales, most lay people don't know diddly squat about resale values or the like since people will haggle on any price. If you didn't like the price they offered you then DON'T SELL IT TO THEM. Having a difficult buyer has nothing to do with the resale value of your Infiniti's, if you had them in excellent condition. A dealership wouldn't think twice of selling a used vehicle to you if they didn't make a profit. Lets just dismiss the cold hard facts that professional sources rate things on. I hope I'm not confusing you with logic and reason :confuse:

tlong

Plekto,

Your story is interesting, thanks for that. This is exactly the market segment that I am interested in. I had a '98 A4, and I'm currently driving an '05 TL. If I were to replace that car today, a lot of the vehicles that you listed would be on my list. My thoughts:

IS - don't particularly like Lexus or Toyota, this one is out
TSX - I really liked the previous model, I sort of agree on the current one. Not as attractive, gotten too big, too soft and bloated. But a good value choice.
A4 - is now too expensive. No 6 cyl choice.
BMW - The 3 series is close, but BMW's have never quite done it for me. I guess I want a little higher mix of luxury and a bit more reasonable purchase price.
CTS - I don't mind the looks, I'll take your word on the interior. I'm just not quite ready to buy GM - need to see longer term reliability and survivability of the company.
S60 - I really like the looks, although I haven't sat in it or driven it. I'm shocked at how much it costs. Also not sure how the ownership changes of Volvo might affect things long term.
C-class - too expensive. Also not sure I'm ready to have the MB stigma (how it looks to others). But given that, I think the C-class is BY FAR the most attractive car in the class. Given your comments on the interior, I have no doubt that this would be good as well. I think I'd consider getting a 2-3 yo one coming off a lease to save some money. And I think this is the one I'd eventually go to if I was going to leave my TL. It would have to be worth it, and the other cars on the list just aren't quite appealing enough at this time.

kdshapiro

Pletko, replying to you but a general reply to the board.

I decided on the g37 and it is now in my possession. White, wheat interior, accents, nav, premium plus other stuff. I sent the sales rep an offer within email after doing my homework. In the end the offer was accepted without negotiation on the dealers part.

Process was as painless as can humanly be. I'm pleased with the car.

nyccarguy

Nice - you're going to be happy

plekto

I personally like the G37 the most out of that list, but it's because I could in theory get it with manual and I kind of like muscle cars. It's definitely not a proper luxury sedan, though.

But for the price, it is also a good deal - at the end of the year, with incentives, we're talking about 3-4K more than an Accord V6 or Camry V6, and about the same price as a TSX. As an upscale family sedan, it is a fantastic alternative.

***
As for the original poster's comments, yes, it took me a long time to get over the whole Mercedes stigma as well when I first owned one years ago. They are fine cars and if it's any consolation to you, they carry a bit less stigma now than a typical BMW does. At least around here.

The C 300 Luxury is probably the best compromise, though, since the sport is nice and all, but the interior of the Luxury is by far better. Just two things, though - one, you absolutely do want to add the rear spoiler to it as it makes the back end look more defined. And the panoramic sunroof is awesome looking with the Sandstone Beige. (it's tinted very dark black so it adds nice contrast) It's really the only color combo that the car looks best in, IMO, and I generally hate beige and tan colors. 35K all over town, so CPO at 25-30K is a snap.

m6user

It's definitely not a proper luxury sedan, though

Just curious, what is it about the G37 that makes is "not a proper luxury sedan"?

kdshapiro

Have to agree it's not a proper luxury sedan, but it is a proper entry level luxury sedan.

gooddeal2

But for the price, it is also a good deal - at the end of the year, with incentives, we're talking about 3-4K more than an Accord V6 or Camry V6, and about the same price as a TSX. As an upscale family sedan, it is a fantastic alternative.

I doubt that you can get the G for 3-4k more than the Camry with the SAME options. You should be able to get a loaded Camry for about 27K (MSRP = $33K) at the end of the year. In order to get a loaded G for 30K, the dealer needs to give you 14K discount (MSRP = $44k).

kdshapiro

The g25 starts at 32,000. You might be able to a few thousand off the car but the equipment won't be comparable to a loaded camry.

sweendogy

right but your getting a car that is a top pick from consumer reports, rwd and infiniti name plate-- or you could 5k pay more for an avalon.

smarty666

Luxury Sedan = M, 5, E, GS, A6, RL
Entry Lux Sedan = G, 3, C, ES, A4, TL

carnaught

Sure dude, whatever you say. I guess your user name says it all :sick: .

fedlawman

Congrats KD! Enjoy!

m6user

Ok, I get it now.

kdshapiro

TY Sir!

plekto

I doubt that you can get the G for 3-4k more than the Camry with the SAME options. You should be able to get a loaded Camry for about 27K (MSRP = $33K) at the end of the year. In order to get a loaded G for 30K, the dealer needs to give you 14K discount (MSRP = $44k).

The G37 Journey has almost the same exact options as a Camry V6. They dropped the base model as well and now relegate that to the G25 where it belongs. The G37 starts out at the mid level trim. Most of the options aren't really required, either, and the car rides far too hard with the sport tires or sport package. Hence why, IMO, it's not a real luxury car - though it is a good upscale sport sedan like the 3 series.

Truecar has one for $32320 near me. And it's not the end of the year - there's no incentives going on right now.

It's $27K even for a Camry V6 XLE (no options, either) - no incentives, ever. Like I said - it's a fantastic deal and a better replacement for the tired and boring Camry in any case. For 4-5K more, it's a no-brainer, really. It represents what I feel is the best value for the dollar currently on the market. And for 90% of people who have never had either a proper luxury car or a proper sports car, it's going to feel like they won the lottery compared to their old car.

But for the original poster, it's not quite what he seems to want - he wants a step up from all of that. Fair enough. Myself, like I said, I really like the G37 a lot. But then I can get one with manual, so it's a huge incentive as well.

rayainsw

Good luck!
- Ray

smarty666

That is what most people on here and in the industry agree upon. Sorry your in some super minority that feels differently :sick:

gooddeal2

It's $27K even for a Camry V6 XLE (no options, either) - no incentives, ever.

You should be able to get a base V6 XLE for about 25K. You can get a loaded XLE V6 w/ NAV., Smart key, DVD... for 27.5K here without negotiation. You should be able to get it a lot cheaper toward the end of the year.

People can also get a base Camry for about 16K as well.

kdshapiro

...The G37 Journey has almost the same exact options as a Camry V6....

If one lives in the Northeast, RWD is not a bargain, so one would be looking for a G37x, at least I would. There is a $10,000 difference between a G37x and a Camry with the same options. You can't even get the same options on a G25 as are available on a CAMRY.

I would rather drive the Camry in NY based on the last two winters than the G25 with RWD.

plekto

Well, if you don't put winter tires on the car, it will handle like junk no matter what it is. And the thing normally comes with summer tires which exacerbates the issue.

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/listarticle.aspx?cp-documentid=1168211
They say that less than 3% of U.S. tire sales are for winter tires. They tested a G37 with and without and the findings are surprising if you aren't familiar with these types of tires.

Quote (MSN Autos):
What About All-Wheel Drive?
Often cited as the transportation cure for winter climates, all-wheel drive is far from a silver bullet. In previous tests, we've discovered that an all-wheel-drive vehicle with all-season tires can outaccelerate either a front- or rear-driver on winter rubber, but that's where the advantage ends. The additional traction of winter tires allows a two-wheel-drive car to outbrake, outturn, and generally outmaneuver its all-wheel-drive brethren. Of course, the unstoppable winter option that can impart visions of rally-driving heroism is the combination of all-wheel drive and winter tires, but possessing all-wheel drive generally sacrifices a rear-drive car's handling balance in the dry, adds a couple hundred pounds, and comes with a fuel-economy penalty. That's why our preferred choice is to buy a second set of tires to get through the winter

Here's a video of all season vs winter tires:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

So you should forget AWD and get a set of summer and a set of winter tires instead. If you live where you really get bad snow, that is.

gooddeal2

Yeb, I hardly find just a RWD here unless I want a MT. 99.9% of the Gs are AWD in Philly.

kdshapiro

I have plenty of snow experience. The awd on my subie worked flawlessly with all season tires in two feet of snow from the last few winters.

I don't want to turn this into a debate on drivetrains and tires. But in the northeast there are a lot of cars on the road with awd.

It easy to sit in LA and link to articles on tires and drivetrains. Why dont you spend a winter or ten in the northeast and get some practical experience with tires and drivetrains?

Kirstie_H

Heck, even going to Kansas City would do. Two winters with 40+ inches of snow each year switched me to 4WD in a heartbeat. No regrets.

While it's all well and fine for people to keep giving ideas about how to turn a RWD sport sedan into a decent snow performer with better tires, etc., I can tell you that my 4WD vehicle outperforms my G35 in the snow, period.

plekto

Yet, you don't hear about people in Europe having problems with RWD Mercedes and BMWs being dangerous in the winter, do you? Winter tires are considered a normal thing in Germany and everyone uses them.

It's really not the huge issue that most people on the boards here make it out to be. The way that people talk about it seems as if your car will instantly fly off the road, cash, and explode if you don't cough up the extra thousands for an AWD system.

Proper tires and not driving like a moron can make it pretty much a non-issue and allow you to consider pretty much any car or truck for winter use. That video, btw, that I linked to was of a RWD BMW.

Oh, and we do get snow in California. I didn't always live in So. Cal - there's tons of bad weather up in the northern parts of the state. And in all of that time, I never once considered what type of drive (FWD/RWD/4WD) the vehicle had when I purchased it. I adjusted my driving patterns and tires to fit the situation.

Kirstie_H

I didn't pay thousands extra for my AWD vehicle, and I didn't see anyone allude that your RWD will fly instantly off the road. Just that AWD performs better.

Ever live in Europe? I'm guessing not. I have. It's a bit silly to lump all of Europe into a single category, because some areas get almost no snow, but anyway... not everyone in Germany drives a RWD vehicle, and I'm not sure it would make international news if some of those who did had trouble in the snow. I will say that much of England pretty much shuts down if there's 2" of snow - could we attribute that to the prevalence of RWD vehicles in Europe? I doubt it, but that debate point makes as much sense as your point about "not hearing about BMWs/Mercedes flying off the road in Germany."

As I said, talk all you want. We've had two RWD vehicles at the same time in winter, and 2 AWD vehicles at that same time. I'm going to choose the AWD vehicle in heavy snow 100% of the time, even if you tell me yet another time how RWD is a non-issue if you have proper tires and driving skills.

plekto

Well, there are a couple of factors to condsider with AWD.

Does it actually work? Most systems actually are only good for slow speeds and getting you unstuck from snow and the like. If the system transfers power back and forth and isn't engaged all of the time, it's useless for most bad conditions unless the power ratios are set up correctly. Most manufacturers get this horribly wrong.

The G37 in question costs $1500 more for the AWD version, but it performs almost the same as the RWD version due to the power distribution. (0/100 under default conditions). It's basically fancy version of stability control in that it kicks in when it feels that it needs to, and from videos of the system in action that I have seen, it takes about 1/4 to 1/2 of a second for the computer's AI to actually think and respond.(not talking about theoretical published specs, but watching the wheels respond to an unknown surface and how they move back and forth)

Too slow to be useful at normal driving speeds except to maybe lessen a skid or situation where you are already in over your head. There are numerous articles and videos out there about half-baked AWD systems, so I'll not go into this further.

The other issue is cost - $1500 more and much more likely to break down as the car ages. Is it worth it? Probably not. It's certainly not full-time AWD like Audi and Subaru use.

kdshapiro

The G37 in question costs $1500 more for the AWD version, but it performs almost the same as the RWD version due to the power distribution

It may perform the same but I'll bet it doesn't react the same. What I want out of my AWD system is not to have to worry about powering through deep drifts. I want to be able to step on the gas gently and have all four tires partipate in gingerly moving the car without throwing it into a skid.

With RWD with snows, gingerly is not in the equation. It doesn't matter whose system is better, I want the system to be just good enough so I won't get stuck.

The ATTESA has been written up for the last several years as the best performance AWD.

Come this winter I will find out.

tlong

Don't forget that AWD doesn't do anything for braking. It can get you moving in slick conditions, but to get stopped - well all cars brake on all four wheels.

m6user

I'll be sure to tell the tow truck driver pulling me out of a snow drift that he really doesn't need 4WD on his truck.....just get some snow tires.