Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

billyperks4

Looks like a previous generation A4- yaaawn.

qbrozen

Michaell said:

And, how many Alfa dealers will there be? Co-located with the Fiat dealers or separate?

I thought I read they intended to coexist with Fiat dealers. And I'm going to take a guess about your next point, which I think is a good one: If you want to be priced at and considered the same as BMW/Mercedes/Lexus, you'd better have your own dealerships.

dino001

Looking at Alfa websites, they already have dealers there. Those in my area are same as Fiat, which are part of multibrand franchises. So all it will do is add another nameplate and probably a separate showroom (perhaps not immediately).

thebean

The Fiat dealer close to me (McKinney TX) already has an Alfa sign on the building below the Fiat sign.  Should be above it but maybe they are waiting until some actual Alfa's show up.

robr2

There is only one Alfa dealer in MA and it's owned by Herb Chambers that has about 60 total locations. The address of the Alfa dealership is across the street from the Fiat store. He has a Maserati store about 30 miles away in a hoity toity suburb.

It will be interesting to see what happens south of Boston. One the "automile", Central has the Dodge, Jeep, Ram, Chrysler, Fiat stores. Boch has the Ferrari and Maserati stores a mile away.

sweendogy

Wayland is a ht town? Go east young man. 

If alfa makes a move and can sell cars both herb and Ernie will expand

robr2

You don't think Wayland is hoity toity? Yes, it's the poorest of the three W's - Weston, Wellesley, Wayland but it's still top 10 in state income.

Ernie got Maserati because he had Ferrari. Central got Fiat because it has the other Chrysler brands. If Alfa will reward Fiat dealers with Alfa, then Central should get the store. As for Kelly, he has the north shore Fiat and Herb has the north shore Chrysler/Dodge/Ram. Herb got Fiat in metro west/Worcester because he has the Chrysler/Dodge/Ram there and thus he got Alfa.

IMHO, many automakers are leery of Chambers as they feel he has too much power in such a small area. MB brought in a dealer group from Cleveland for the new MB location in my town - about 1/2 mile from the Chambers Audi/Porsche location. Chambers through his attorney has accused the planning board of impropriety in their approval of the MB store and has stated that the planning board is being too hard on Chambers' parking lot expansion at the Audi/Porsche store. The planning board is simply trying to ensure safety at that location. IIRC, that location did not finish the original project as approved. A building that was to be renovated was "accidentally" demolished. No U Turn signs have mysteriously disappeared a few times. Asbestos at the expansion was disposed of improperly and the contractor has been fined.

flightnurse

The ordering guide and prices for the LCI (life Cycle Impluse aka a refresh) has been publish SOP (start of Production) is 06-2015.. Some interesting things.. On all 3 series Sport Suspension is now standard, LED lights are now standard. But have a look for yourself. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=846460

dino001

Sport suspension IS NOT standard, read again. 328/335 has standard current Sport Line aesthetic elements and seats. You can get previous standard seats on 328/340 by getting premium package and luxury line (which is no cost) To get M-sport suspension (2VF adaptive or 704 regular), you need M-sport package or track package. However, they did say they have "newly tuned" the suspension and steering. If that delivers, it may be OK in standard form.

They still had to monkey with option configurations - up to now, whole "Line" thing was a mess. Can get this, but not that, etc. It's simplified and more available, BUT now you will be able get black with red stitching (which I love) only with regular suspension. "Sporty red stitching", which was the hallmark of the Sport Line is mutually exclusive with sport suspension elements, because it's not available with those M-sport packages. This is nuts.

They increased the price for 340, but the equipment offsets are more than sufficient, so overall value is better than current year. Actually, it's much better. However, there are also couple of slight of hands on 328 to make you believe you get more, but you don't. Premium package no longer has leather, but its price for 328 stays close to this year, because they swapped it for LED lights. 340 has all premium pack equipment standard, so that is not an issue. Leather is no a stand alone handsome $1450 option. I predict it will result in much more fake stuff showing in the dealers' inventories than this year. Now you could get leather as stand alone or as premium package, which was a frequent option. Once it's remove, it will probably be going to be first thing to go, for price conscious customers and ordering managers. BMW went essentially Mercedes way. I hate that.

So if you want 335, you better wait for 340, because it's going to be a better deal overall (unless you get some awesome discount to offset that difference). However, for 328 I see not much value added, just more shuffling to make you believe you're getting more. Good example is that leather vs. LED in premium package. The former has stable pricing in terms of supply, but they will be paying less and less for the LEDs (rapid development of new products pushes supply prices down in that segment), but keeping the profit for themselves.

The whole red stitching thing vs. sport suspension is just my personal disappointment, but not end of the world.

carnaught

BMW has to upgrade their interiors, especially the dash, IMHO, as Mercedes interiors are now light-years ahead.

dino001

Agreed. Not only Mercedes - Audi, Acura, Lexus. Pretty much everybody is ahead. However, to be fair, upgrade different inlays make big differences on the interiors. However, the instrument cluster is still a 1980s.

markcincinnati

dino001 - I would disagree with ONE of your "is ahead" selections, and that would be the Acura. The Acura interior, while probably able to be applauded for its tech still seems to show its Honda-ness too much. In fact, the Acura and Infiniti interiors, today, just seem a lot cheaper looking than those from Audi and Mercedes. The slow-but-steady improvements in BMW's interiors since 2010 or 2011 certainly bears noting; but today the two Germans I noted certainly seem to offer best in class interiors.

When my wife and I test drove a Macan recently (to get a sense of just how much Audi SQ5 it retained), we both felt the Porsche interior was somewhat more upscale than the Audi's. I don't know if all Porsche interiors come off feeling that "high end" or not -- and it may not even matter since the cars are not typically cross shopped. Friend of our just got a 2016 A6 Prestige -- I'd say its interior does have some WOW factor.

I must say, though, I am not a fan of anybody's implementation of the "pop-up" screen. Looks after market to me.

andres3

I think the 2011 or 2012 and older Mercedes C-Class had a more Honda-like interior than Acura. Granted, it improved in either 2012 or 2013, but before that, yuck!

sweendogy

@robr2 very interesting take on the dealership 3/4 headed monster. The Audi dealership in Burlington is amazing place - they offer ice cream all year long and charge only 350(?) for an oil change. Herb has done a great job spamming my morning commute with radio and billboard ads. He has "smart pricing" on his used cars which is only smart for him and not the said customers. Will say this his service departments are good but you pay for it. 

roadburner

The Louisville Fiat dealer has an Alfa sign up as well.

flightnurse

dino001 said:

Sport suspension IS NOT standard, read again. 328/335 has standard current Sport Line aesthetic elements and seats. You can get previous standard seats on 328/340 by getting premium package and luxury line (which is no cost) To get M-sport suspension (2VF adaptive or 704 regular), you need M-sport package or track package. However, they did say they have "newly tuned" the suspension and steering. If that delivers, it may be OK in standard form.

Dino you are wrong....

The Sport line is now standard with the old sport line suspension as well as seats, in fact for $700 you can get the old DHP (Dynamic Handling Package) but the Variable Steering can be had on the standard Sport package, but can be had with the Track Package.

IF people do not want the Sport seats, then they just order the Luxury line which is a no cost options that comes with the old standard seats.

dino001 said:

They still had to monkey with option configurations - up to now, whole "Line" thing was a mess. Can get this, but not that, etc. It's simplified and more available, BUT now you will be able get black with red stitching (which I love) only with regular suspension. "Sporty red stitching", which was the hallmark of the Sport Line is mutually exclusive with sport suspension elements, because it's not available with those M-sport packages. This is nuts.

They increased the price for 340, but the equipment offsets are more than sufficient, so overall value is better than current year. Actually, it's much better. However, there are also couple of slight of hands on 328 to make you believe you get more, but you don't. Premium package no longer has leather, but its price for 328 stays close to this year, because they swapped it for LED lights. 340 has all premium pack equipment standard, so that is not an issue. Leather is no a stand alone handsome $1450 option. I predict it will result in much more fake stuff showing in the dealers' inventories than this year. Now you could get leather as stand alone or as premium package, which was a frequent option. Once it's remove, it will probably be going to be first thing to go, for price conscious customers and ordering managers. BMW went essentially Mercedes way. I hate that.

So if you want 335, you better wait for 340, because it's going to be a better deal overall (unless you get some awesome discount to offset that difference). However, for 328 I see not much value added, just more shuffling to make you believe you're getting more. Good example is that leather vs. LED in premium package. The former has stable pricing in terms of supply, but they will be paying less and less for the LEDs (rapid development of new products pushes supply prices down in that segment), but keeping the profit for themselves.

The whole red stitching thing vs. sport suspension is just my personal disappointment, but not end of the world.

The 340i is the real winner, I agree, you get a car wtih more standard features for less money then the 2015 335i.

flightnurse

Here is the ordering guide to show you Dino (and I highlighted) that the sport suspension is standard.

dino001

There are three types of suspensions: standard, M-sport (704) available on "i" models with both ZMP and and ZTR and adaptive M-sport (2VF) available on "i" and "x" models with same packages. S-line is standard, indeed, but it was changed to not include 704, just like it didn't on "x" models. I stand by my statement. The standard suspension will be retuned to be more sporty, but that's not sport suspension.

stickguy

man, BMW has gone off the rails with this stuff. between having about 20 different models, and these endless (and convoluted) option configurations, it could take a math PhD with a cray all day to figure out what to order!

roadburner

No word yet on whether the LCI F3x 3ers will need a new battery at every Oil Service...

markcincinnati

Just curious, what with the discussion about BMW's "endless" combination of options, etc: How many folks [here] buy/lease cars "in-stock" vs ordering and waiting? In my experience, the only person -- besides me -- I know who "always" orders her German cars is my wife.

In fact, our Audi dealer says that AoA's creation for the US market of Premium, Premium Plus and Prestige was created to "simplify" car buying (for who, the dealers? the customers?), by bundling options into groups that mirror what customers want.

This argument always confuses me since these option groupings seem to pop up somehow -- who is it that participated in a focus group that allowed the marketing folks to put "this" on Premium versions and "that" on Prestige, and so forth?

In any case, this BMW approach of offering endless combinations and permutations would seem to be car ordering people's dream come true -- but then I recall I really don't know anyone who regularly and frequently orders their new Audi, BMW or Mercedes. Moreover, the dealers' inventories continue to swell, which also would seem to discourage ordereing.

The question is posed: do more than 50% of "us" who participate in posting here actually order their new ELLPS cars, or do we get "close enough for jazz" and buy off the lot?

roadburner

I sometimes ordered my new BMWs(and once needed my salesperson to go to the mat with Munich when BMW wanted an "optional" sunroof to become mandatory), but the crux oof my complaint is that BMW still bundles some options. It's fine to offer packages that combine popular options at a perceived "savings," but I wish that BMW would take a page out of Mini's playbook and make every option available individually. I suppose it's a moot point for me; after 32 years of continuous ownership(not to mention years of service in BMW CCA at both the chapter and national level) I've almost totally lost interest in the marque- I recently sold one of my BMWs and will likely cull at least one more from the fleet.

graphicguy

Funny thing...I've heard people complain when they don't have enouhg options to craft a new car with the exact options they want, and others who complain about having too many options. Can't win if you're the manufcturer, it seems.

I don't know how BMW justifies all the options, as the cost for having such a laundry list of different possible configurations costs in parts inventory, admistrative overhead, and manufacturing complexity.

But, you pay for all of that flexibiity.

robr2

sweendogy said:

@robr2 very interesting take on the dealership 3/4 headed monster. The Audi dealership in Burlington is amazing place - they offer ice cream all year long and charge only 350(?) for an oil change. Herb has done a great job spamming my morning commute with radio and billboard ads. He has "smart pricing" on his used cars which is only smart for him and not the said customers. Will say this his service departments are good but you pay for it. 

No doubt, Herb has great business. I bought two Hondas from him and felt the pricing was fair. As the biggest dealer in the Boston area, it's natural for him to be the biggest advertiser. At least he's not pretending to be working in the service department like Ernie Boch. I've looked at some used cars from Herb with smart pricing and checked over at Real World Trade In Values and the numbers are pretty much on target. The service at Honda is reasonable for basic things.

The MB dealership just up the street from Audi Burlington is an even more amazing place. The manicure bar is complimentary and all the sales associates are trained to properly prepare the Ospina coffee. They jumped through hoops in order to please the town in terms of trucks exiting the property and building design and are hosting town events at the dealership - next week is a high school art exhibit and reception. IIRC, total investment in the building was $15 million and they started up with over 100 MB's on opening day.

Bernie Moreno from Cleveland is the owner - he used to work for Chambers before going to Ohio. My understanding is that Chambers is upset about MBUSA for giving Moreno - or anyone else - the location. That's why his lawyer is making noise and veiled threats at the town.

flightnurse

roadburner said:

No word yet on whether the LCI F3x 3ers will need a new battery at every Oil Service...

No that is only on the 550i... I sort of laugh at the guys who beat their chest about owning one, then come to find out that the N63 engine has major problems, that can run up to 10K to fix (but BMW has stepped up and covered the cost with a retro fix.) Now the dealer has been replacing the battery in them too at each service.. This is why I believe the 535d is the best choice in the 5 series line up..

qbrozen

I'm all for packaging options, as long as it makes sense. I really don't want to deal with all individual options, especially on the used car market.

I actually think Honda has historically done a good job. DX, LX, EX, EX-L. Then just add Nav and/or RES. Of course, that wouldn't work with all the crazy things you can get on a luxo car. What Caddy did with the V Sport is definitely not the right way to go, though. 2 versions: Base or Luxury: $10k difference! But if you are the type of person that insists on a moonroof, then you have to pony up $10k to get it. That's just ridiculous.

The thing that REALLY bugs me is when they force you to get certain packages you might not want to get one that you do or lose other things you like. For example, when pricing a Macan, I found if you want the 14-way power seat, you HAVE to pay an additional $525 for the heated seats option (so why not just add that into the price of the 14-way seat to begin with?!) AND you lose the alacantra inserts, which I would very much prefer.

flightnurse

markcincinnati said:

Just curious, what with the discussion about BMW's "endless" combination of options, etc: How many folks [here] buy/lease cars "in-stock" vs ordering and waiting? In my experience, the only person -- besides me -- I know who "always" orders her German cars is my wife.

I ordered my E46, didn't on my 320i, we are ordering Ricks GT, as well as my next BMW. BMW last year 2014, did 22K European Delivery's at the Welt last year (this includes people from around the world, not just in the US.) that number is up from the previous year. BMW BMW does more European Delivery then MB and Audi. Of course BMW dealers really don't push this, as they too want instead sales, as well as the SA... But it appears more and more people are doing it.

markcincinnati said:

In fact, our Audi dealer says that AoA's creation for the US market of Premium, Premium Plus and Prestige was created to "simplify" car buying (for who, the dealers? the customers?), by bundling options into groups that mirror what customers want.

Audi's parent company is VW, and VW doesn't have many options on their cars either.. I like the fact that you can order pretty much what you want in a BMW

flightnurse

qbrozen said:

The thing that REALLY bugs me is when they force you to get certain packages you might not want to get one that you do or lose other things you like. For example, when pricing a Macan, I found if you want the 14-way power seat, you HAVE to pay an additional $525 for the heated seats option (so why not just add that into the price of the 14-way seat to begin with?!) AND you lose the alacantra inserts, which I would very much prefer.

I have been told that Porsche really is flexible when it comes to ordering from them, just because the website does not allow it doesn't mean you can't get it your way. The same with BMW, just have to ask.

dino001

graphicguy said:

I don't know how BMW justifies all the options, as the cost for having such a laundry list of different possible configurations costs in parts inventory, admistrative overhead, and manufacturing complexity.
But, you pay for all of that flexibiity.

It's all relative. In their home world they have more then twice of engine choices, with option numbers just mind-boggling. American price sheet for the 3-series is three or four pages, the one in Europe is a 30 page booklet. So, in fact, American ordering is very simplified when compared with other markets. It's of course reflected in the pricing. I also know they run a system with dealers in full control of the ordering options within allocations, as opposed to many other manufacturers, who often push their choice of options on dealers. This of course means that people like me, who have taste outside of the "mainstream" are still at mercy of Joe, the dealer's ordering manager, but at least they allow to order anything that's on the list.

graphicguy

robr2 said:

sweendogy said:

@robr2 very interesting take on the dealership 3/4 headed monster. The Audi dealership in Burlington is amazing place - they offer ice cream all year long and charge only 350(?) for an oil change. Herb has done a great job spamming my morning commute with radio and billboard ads. He has "smart pricing" on his used cars which is only smart for him and not the said customers. Will say this his service departments are good but you pay for it. 

No doubt, Herb has great business. I bought two Hondas from him and felt the pricing was fair. As the biggest dealer in the Boston area, it's natural for him to be the biggest advertiser. At least he's not pretending to be working in the service department like Ernie Boch. I've looked at some used cars from Herb with smart pricing and checked over at Real World Trade In Values and the numbers are pretty much on target. The service at Honda is reasonable for basic things.

The MB dealership just up the street from Audi Burlington is an even more amazing place. The manicure bar is complimentary and all the sales associates are trained to properly prepare the Ospina coffee. They jumped through hoops in order to please the town in terms of trucks exiting the property and building design and are hosting town events at the dealership - next week is a high school art exhibit and reception. IIRC, total investment in the building was $15 million and they started up with over 100 MB's on opening day.

Bernie Moreno from Cleveland is the owner - he used to work for Chambers before going to Ohio. My understanding is that Chambers is upset about MBUSA for giving Moreno - or anyone else - the location. That's why his lawyer is making noise and veiled threats at the town.

Moreno openec up the most st recent Mercedes dealer in the Cincinnati area (actually, it's in Northern KY, just across the bridge from Cincinnati, over the Ohio River).

The two oldest Mercedes dealers in the Cincinnati area are owned by the same principal. And, he could learn a thing or two from Moreno.

If my wife ever decides to buy a Mercedes,which she might, it will be from Moreno's dealership,,which is the furthest from where we live and further away than the other two Mercedes dealers.

sweendogy

@robr2 and @graphic_guy - I've driven past the mb dealership and it's amazing - herb decided to shoehorn his mb in Somerville underneath a highway with limited parking and now packaged with a smart car dealership- no ideal for said customers but good for herb because they put a heli pad on the roof so very convenient for big Bruins or celtics games. 

My used experience with herb was terrible because they tell you what you should pay- had issues with 2 cars Honda and Audi and bot elesewhere. 

graphicguy

sweendogy said:

@robr2 and @graphic_guy - I've driven past the mb dealership and it's amazing - herb decided to shoehorn his mb in Somerville underneath a highway with limited parking and now packaged with a smart car dealership- no ideal for said customers but good for herb because they put a heli pad on the roof so very convenient for big Bruins or celtics games. 

My used experience with herb was terrible because they tell you what you should pay- had issues with 2 cars Honda and Audi and bot elesewhere. 

I've heard of Herb....mostly out East. But. I'd never heard of Moreno until he moved into the Cincinnati area. He's done well in the short time he's been down this way.

My guess is he's put a significant dent in the Cincinnati new Mercedes market by takig away business from the established player in Montgomery and West Chester.

robr2

graphicguy said:

sweendogy said:

@robr2 and @graphic_guy - I've driven past the mb dealership and it's amazing - herb decided to shoehorn his mb in Somerville underneath a highway with limited parking and now packaged with a smart car dealership- no ideal for said customers but good for herb because they put a heli pad on the roof so very convenient for big Bruins or celtics games. 

My used experience with herb was terrible because they tell you what you should pay- had issues with 2 cars Honda and Audi and bot elesewhere. 

I've heard of Herb....mostly out East. But. I'd never heard of Moreno until he moved into the Cincinnati area. He's done well in the short time he's been down this way.

My guess is he's put a significant dent in the Cincinnati new Mercedes market by takig away business from the established player in Montgomery and West Chester.

Moreno was an intern at Automobile magazine and then worked for Saturn. Chambers hired in as the manager of his Saturn store and Moreno moved up to VP supervising 9 Chambers' locations. In 2005, MB offered to finance his purchase of a struggling dealership in Cleveland. Since then he has opened up 30 stores - MB, Porsche, Acura, Lotus, Aston, Infiniti.

MB only opens a store if they see potential for increased business. They wouldn't saddle a business with a $20 million building if it was a zero sum game. I'm guessing there was a demand for that open point as south of Cincinnati since the next closest store is in Lexington. His store here in my town was considered an open point. It's equidistant from two other MB stores (about 20 miles). It serves the suburbs NW of Boston and also tens of thousands of potential customers who work in the executive parks in town.

dino001

We talked here about Acura losing its way, not more precisely never really making it in this category. The latest TLX commercial is a perfect example - lack of its own identity seems not enough for them, they had to invoke that idiotic German (catchy, but meaningless) tune. The visual was actually not bad, but the tune simply idiotic. They should fire those who authorized it. There are many ways I could see TLX advertised, mostly as "all-included" luxury with a sporty slant. The last message they want to convey is "me to" (as there is enough of existing perception of that), but this stupid German tune does exactly that.

stickguy

At least it is a really nice car. I was quite smitten with the one I played around in last week while at the dealer.

dino001

I attended BMW's annual drive event (they do those every late spring in my area) at my dealership. I like those, as you get a car without a salesman. I drove 428i Gran Coupe and souped up 335ix with sport transmission and bunch of other options, all M-Sport related. 335 was fast, but I already knew that before, so it didn't overwhelm me with awesome power. The new LCI steering update is just in time, as even souped up 335 still had that soft feel.

The positive surprise was 428 GC. It was Luxury Line. I think they continue working on this engine and it probably improved since the introduction. I pushed it harder this time and it produced a decent low-pitch grunt that I didn't hear before. I also proved fairly quick. I was skeptical for long time, but I'm warming up a little to a possibility of giving up on the six-cylinder for the economy (both price and fuel). The steering in 428 was also a bit better than 335 (there are wider wheeltrack and same wheelbase, also reportedly slight suspension differences between 3- and 4-series). LCI could not have come fast enough, let's hope some of that steering feedback is restored. I anticipate even 4-series will benefit, too, hopefully they'll bring it sooner than full year from now.

I suspect that once the LCI dust settles it will be for me between 328 wagon and 428 or 435 Grand Coupe. There is also Gran Turismo, but it's too cow-ish so far. I have time to decide. Seems it works for my benefit - the deals will get better, as the model ages. The reliability should also go up.

robr2

dino001 said:

We talked here about Acura losing its way, not more precisely never really making it in this category. The latest TLX commercial is a perfect example - lack of its own identity seems not enough for them, they had to invoke that idiotic German (catchy, but meaningless) tune. The visual was actually not bad, but the tune simply idiotic. They should fire those who authorized it. There are many ways I could see TLX advertised, mostly as "all-included" luxury with a sporty slant. The last message they want to convey is "me to" (as there is enough of existing perception of that), but this stupid German tune does exactly that.

Well I think the idea is to create an atmosphere that the TLX is just as good as your German sedan hence the tagline "How do you say your lease is up in German?"

billyperks4

Flight- What's your next Bimmer- a 340?

circlew

The Q50 lost to the TLX in a few reviews, not by much, however. After a few months, I really like the lower NVH from the last gen G. (They have dealer-installed kit to enhance the exhaust note that a review thought was very effective.)

Also liked the Q style over the TLX. The sport seats are great but I believe BMW is a notch up, IMHO. I could live in the Q for many miles at a time!

markcincinnati

It's after 11PM, I'm feeling a bit peckish -- and for some reason I feel the need to post the following:

I, for reasons that would take more explanation that worthwhile, hate Toyotas -- and, after today, I have to say, I really hate the Avalon even more than the Camry, if that is possible.

I'll, for me, net this out -- good is the enemy of great. Toyota's, especially the two noted above, are the epitome of good cars -- and that is what makes them so, er, hate-worthy.

I know these are really very popular cars -- the things are everywhere.

Isn't there any way to make great cars at every price point?

Really, really -- good is the enemy of great and, therefore, perhaps, good is evil as it makes us dumb down our expectations. While these cars may be incredibly reliable, they suck the joy out of driving and will be, in the end, the reason self-driving cars will be here in an alarmingly short time from now.

Not sure, but I can make the case for hating Lexus products (for the most part) too.

I need a sandwich.

dino001

I would not buy Toyota vehicle, although I noticed they improved their styling and interiors considerably. In its own right, Toyotas are actually great cars, they just emphasize things that are not important to you and ignore those that are. If you ever watched Top Gear episode on Hilux (Euro version of Tacoma), you'd absolutely say that Toyota makes great cars - for those who have particular expectations, vastly different from yours. To hate Toyota the way you describe it, is to hold all those people in contempt and declare your life priorities as the only ones worth considering, which I think is too far. Some people simply care about price, fuel economy and durability, cheap maintenance. Toyota absolutely excels in those. Those people buy their vehicles to keep them for 10 years, they'd rather spend the money somewhere else. Those are valid life choices, regardless how hard you find that to fathom. You may still hate them, but to say they don't make great cars is only an opinion, not fact.

m6user

dino001, excellent points.  Lot of folks out there don't consider driving to be joyful but a chore in need of a tool.  A cheap but dependable tool.  

kyfdx

Counterpoint..

Camrys and Avalons are great... at doing what they were designed for. I'd posit that they are better at their intended function, than most of the cars in this discussion.

As an ELLPS, probably not that great. But, that's not what they are.

95% of the buying public has no interest or need for an ELLPS. They need reliable, comfortable, efficient transportation. The Camry and Avalon are great at that.

Don't see how that has an effect on how great your ELLPS might be. Maybe it's the 95% of people that you have a problem with, not the car companies that give them exactly what they want and need.

billyperks4

Agree KYFDX- had a 1994 Camry that my wife (at the time girlfriend) acquired as a gift-it lasted us for quiet some years with zero issues.

dino001

Nobody "needs" ELLPS. By definition, it's a product category around satisfaction of a desire, not a necessity.

dino001

BTW, that Hilux episode of Top Gear was amazing. They beat the snit of it, subjecting it to all kinds of abuses. starting "gently" by numerous fender benders, escalating to more and more serious peril. They submerged it in the Ocean by leaving the truck on a beach with highest tides in the world and the thing started afterwards. They tried to kill it multiple times and it would not die.

jeffm5

I currently drive a 2013 Volvo S60 T5, but have owned a Camry and 2 Avalons, the last one a 2005. The Toyotas did what I expected of them - Provide good, reliable transportation. The 2005 Avalon was a great highway cruiser. Very solid and comfortable. Fun to drive - Not so much. I get that from the Volvo. I guess it all depends on what you're looking for when you make the purchase. At the time I bought the Toyotas, fun to drive was not high on my list of priorities, as I was building a career and raising a family. I now have the option of indulging my fun to drive craving. I still have a lot of appreciation for what Toyota offers to car buyers.

flightnurse

billyperks4 said:

Flight- What's your next Bimmer- a 340?

Rick is getting a 2016 328i GT, the pricing guide and ordering guide was JUST released.. We are looking for a Aug ED.

Now for me, currently the 430i GC (Yeah, I know that hasn't been released yet) is my next BMW, and that wont happen until 2017 (as a MY 2018) in Oct 2017, as my family surname is having a world wide reunion in Vicenca (north eastern Italy) so we will do one at that time. BUT.... The more I read up on the 535d and after having one for a full weekend, I'm slowly leaning that route. Hard to beat 30+ on the highway and high 20's around town in the F10. The F10 is to be redone for MY2017, so not too sure what BMW will offer as an oil burner at that time.. I could only hope for the Tri- turbo inline 6 will make it stateside, 381hp and 546lbs of torque...

flightnurse

Auto review..

Had to go back to New Jersey for a friends funeral, it was last minute, thank gawd for FF miles!! I would have had to shell out $1400 for a RT coach ticket, but for 50K miles point and a whopping $10.80 tax, was able to snag RT FC tickets.. So I have some free days at National, so when I arrived at Newark Airport at 11:15pm (thank you mother nature for our 2 hours delay) the pickings where mighty slime, The first car I went for was a new Camaro, but when I walked up to the car, someone was sitting it, damn... Then I saw the Arrest me red 2015 Dodge Challenger, first time driving the LH cars with the new 8 spd transmission and updated interior. WOW.. What a fun car, even though it rained the entire time I was in Jersey the car was still fun. Nice thick leather steering wheel, If I was blind folded and felt the wheel, I would have sworn it was the M Sport Wheel from BMW, that is how nice it was. The transmission had a sport mode, which only seemed to change the shift pattern of the transmission to be more aggressive, the seats were very nice, comfortable and supportive. Fit and Finish was first rate, the dash, door panels felt nice..

Even though the LH cars are big, they drive great, I was very surprised on how well they drive... Glad to be home, 3 days of rain was getting to me..

graphicguy

I dunno....the last few Camrys I've been in, I've been underwhelmed with the fit an finish. Granted, these were rentals. But still, Camrys used to be known for their fit, finish, build robustness, as well as their efficiency. The last couple I've been in....squeaks, rattles, cheap feeling controls, etc. Very "un"-Toyota like.

FN....just think of the fun you would have had if the Challenger you rented had a "Hemi".