Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

sweendogy

yeah your point well taken. nice work fbi

edwardsf

Re: the acceleration, I think it is called salesman ignorance, not BS

Regarding the turbolag in the A4, I think it is not the AWD but is the lousy CVT Audi puts in the FWD A4. The CVT improves gas mileage but acceleration suffers. (I liked the CVT in the Maxima.) I test drove several 2010 A4s with and without the CVT and there is a huge difference between the CVT and the tiptronic in the Quattro - the tip it is much smoother and seems faster. I had a 2007 Quattro A4, which had a little more turbo lag - the 2010 is much smoother and almost eliminates turbo lag. That said, turbo lag ain't all bad because it means you get turbo acceleration. As fun and fast as my 328iT is, it does not give the whoosh that the torque in the A4 gives in 40-60 mph.

I am an odd creature in that I love Audis (and Swedish Saabs) but don't own one. I own a bimmer because it is quieter and I have a hearing problem. Both are vunderval! cars. The A4 is prettier, with more luxurious leather and a smoother, more refined driving feel. The 328 handles better, is faster throughout the mph range and is more reliable. The 335, of course, is faster but much more expensive and has a lousy repair record. Regarding size, the 328i (sedan) is a bit cramped but the iT (sportwagon) has about the same amount of interior space as the A4 sedan and wagon.

Or, how about a used 528 or 535? If you get a 2009, you get 4 years of warranty - 2 years of original warranty and two years of CPO. You eliminate those first two years of huge depreciation if you bargain well. Cars.com has a 2009 in L.A. with 13k for $36,000. You could get it for $31,000.

Other thoughts - try the new Volvo S60. It looks very cool and is very fast. New Jags are gorgeous.

Dap, You are right: The G37 IS cramped. The C300 IS cramped. The IS250 IS like a 70s band - supercramped. The TL DOES have a nasty beak and is sorta ponderous. The TSX IS downscale from these cars but still a cool rig. The CTS - despite what Pletko thinks - IS an American car.

plekto

Yes, but it's unlike anything GM has produced to date. It punks almost everything from Japan and most of the stuff out of Europe and was designed with European tastes and drivers in mind.

But yeah, it is made by a U.S. based company.

dap2006

I test drove several 2010 A4s with and without the CVT and there is a huge difference between the CVT and the tiptronic in the Quattro - the tip it is much smoother and seems faster.

Ahh, that explains it - I'll be going back to try the Quattro soon. I really liked the Audi interior - truly a pleasure. My wife seems to think we need a bigger back seat but that is a minor consideration for me - it would get little use.

I'll really have to give the CPO 535 some thought - I really hadn't considered buying a used car but I can see it has its advantages.

The CTS isn't a player for me, though I'm sure it's a nice car.

sanjaysdca

If you are looking at slightly used check out Infiniti M. Nice cars with big depriciation.

Autotrader has one 2009 M35 AWD with 15K miles for $39K
2008 M35 with 31K miles for $32K

Both in orange county (ZIP 62626)

plekto

Kind of odd, though, that you won't consider a pre-owned CTS while you will consider a pre-owned 535. They are fairly similar. But the CTS is a lot less expensive as a CPO vehicle and quite a bit more reliable as well.

Another car to try out - and this is a bit of an oddball, but bear with me - is the RX8. It fits 4 adults just fine, and the oddly shaped rear doors aside, it's basically a 4 door sport sedan. Fantastic ride, though - just a tiny bit slower than a Boxster and handles as well, too.

The last would be either a Saab or Volvo.

Other than that, well, you're stuck with crossovers and SUVs. It honestly sounds like your wife wants a RAV4 or similar and you want a 3 series and you're stuck in a no-man's land of trying to find the perfect compromise. Except that compromises by nature aren't perfect and never will be.

P.S. If you want Audi at less money, just get the VW version. But expect to pay a lot in repairs and upkeep for both. I've never known anyone who has had either brand who hasn't had it chew at their pocketbook to keep running.

edwardsf

Poster: I don't like apples.
Pletko: Ah, you need to try a Granny Smith.

Poster: I don't want Cocoa Puffs.
Pletko: Have you considered new and improved Cocoa Puffs?

Poster: I am not considering opiates.
Pletko: You really should consider Heroin. It is made for non opiate likers.

Dude, Give it a rest. Can't you respect ther people's taste and requests? Kirstie assures me there are no car salesmen here. But you seem like one. Do you really want to give that impression?

Also, Dap says he thinks some of those cars are too cramped and you mention the RX8. Buwahahahaha. That is a good one Pletko. Keep em coming.

Another clever joke by you: the VW CC is the VW version of the Audi A4. No. It's not. Not anymore than a Chevy Malibu is a CTS. Different platform. Different engine configuration and tuning. Different suspension. Different AWD system. Different transmission. Different interior. They do have one thin in common: both get average reliability from CR.

And I don't really believe you have any friends that don't own GMs. "Hey Lou, seen the new Aveo?" "Hey Lou, thought about a G8?" "Hey, Lou, you should consider a CTS." "Hey, Lou, wait up. Hey Lou!

Lou?"

mvs1

That is the absolute funniest post I've read on these boards...

I'm having some series issues selecting my next vehicle. I'll need a new ride when I turn my G35XS in end of Dec. I'm toying with the 335XI, manual tranny, Nav, M sport package, etc. and an Audi S4. I couldn't do another G sedan even with the upgrades from 08' to 11' the car is...well...'nice'.

The used 09' 5 series is an interesting option...hmmm.

plekto

I was a little sarcastic, but I guess it got lost in translation. He's pretty much unhappy with everything, and really he's got maybe Mazda, Mitsubishi, and Volvo left. He wants something sporty and that handles well, and we're out of options, really. (I personally think his wife needs to get over the whole cargo/back seat thing unless they have 3 kids) It sounds like she wants a crossover/wagon.

Oh, wait - I forgot one - the Lexus G. That's about all that's left.

As for the VW/Audi comparison, it depends which models. He obviously thinks that the A4 is too small, so the next size larger, well there IS a VW that uses the A3 platform but is between the A4 and A6 in size (ie - the Passat) While they aren't literal clones, they share so much DNA and parts they might as well be fighting over who gets the china in the estate sale.

I'd certainly not pay Audi prices without looking at the Passat first.

dap2006

Actually, I'm not unhappy with everything but simply weighing the pro's and con's - that was the point of soliciting other's opinions. Your sarcasm seems to flow from frustration with my not considering your GM options, but as I originally posted, I'm not a fan of the American offerings - nothing personal there.

Likewise, I don't consider VW, Mazda, or Mitsubishi as acceptable alternatives. And while my wife prefers a larger back seat than an A4, I don't think that confines us to Rav 4's or SUV-type options.

To get back to the discussion, at this point my best bets seem to be a G37, M37, BMW 5 series (new or more likely CPO) - still thinking (and thanks to all!)

Kirstie_H

I'll throw in my $0.02 here, realizing that that's all it is...

You're likely to get much more bang for your buck by going used on any of the 3 vehicles at the top of your list. I'd look for off-lease / CPO vehicles. In my experience, leased vehicles are often more well-looked after if for no other reason than the person leasing fears extra charges at lease turn-in. I bought a G35 several years ago off-lease and it had taken a pretty significant depreciation hit.... I've beat the tar out of it mileage-wise and mechanically it's still perfect. YMMV.

dap2006

I'm going to look into the CPO options, though I like the idea of leasing - new car, no trade-in hassle, and frequency of change being attractive.

Kirstie_H

You seem to have a pretty good idea of your wants & needs, and that's great. I'm sure you'll end up with what's right for you. The only aspect of leasing vs. buying CPO for *me* is that I can get a used G-series with a shorter (than 5 year) term loan and the payment on that is about the same as a lease payment (assuming there are up-front costs associated with the lease), and after 3 yrs or so, I own the vehicle and can use the trade-in value on a new vehicle. Something to thing about and research, but in the end you should just do what you can afford and what makes you happiest!

plekto

I could have sworn that I also pointed that out before as well. :P Why lease when you can own it for the same money a year or two older? Everyone that I know who has done this instead has had a lot less stress and worries as well, because there's no issues with mileage, wear, or other idiocy that they make you go through with a typical lease. And the interest rates are often quite a bit better on a car loan versus a lease when you crunch the numbers.

The cars you are looking at are fine, really - I happen to like the CTS. But that's literally the ONLY GM or Ford car that I can stand - I'm certainly no fan and would buy a Mercedes or similar in a heartbeat over anything else they make. I've owned a (used) S Class in the past and the Domestics have a LONG way to reach that level. For the first three months I'd constantly be amazed just getitng into it and playing with the options. - there was a literal chasm between my previous Buick and the Mercedes. It died - sad story there. Then I got a 4x4

Two other cars to look at would be the E class and the Lexus GS350. These depreciate quickly and are two excellent "hidden gems" in the CPO world. A 2007 GS 350 should run you about 25K and a 2009 E class (built on the new more reliable C class platform, but stretched) should be about 30K.

Optimally, 4 years old is the sweet spot between age and pricing, but the E class came out in 2009. The 2008 and earlier models were a disaster to keep running by comparison.

IIRC, Mercedes also has new car financing (1.9%) and leases on CPO models from time to time.(yes, lease a CPO used car - C class payments on a E class) Lexus might have changed to this as well in reaction - You'd have to check for specifics.

edit - they DO have 1.9% for 48 months on CPO C class models right now - it's going to be hard to beat that price-wise. The new/better body style started in 2008. IMO, the rear seats in the new C class are roomier than in the G37. The panoramic sunroof is incredible as well.

Kirstie_H

well, you do get the full warranty in force for (usually) the duration of ownership if you lease. I can understand why that would be attractive. And, if you consider trading in to be a hassle that is just not worth the effort, there's another reason.

I wouldn't lease, but I can understand why some people do.

igozoomzoom

"I'm going to look into the CPO options, though I like the idea of leasing - new car, no trade-in hassle, and frequency of change being attractive."

BMW Financial Services and Infiniti Financial Services both offer leases on CPO vehicles, just like new ones. BMW limits the lease term to no more than 48 months on vehicles that aren't current model year, but that's the only major difference that I am aware of. The lease payments should also be quite a bit lower than new without the hit of first year depreciation!

BMW CPO warranty extends the New Car Full Vehicle 4-year/50k warranty to 6-years/100k miles. Infiniti also extends the warranty to 6yrs/100k.

If you decide to check out Infiniti CPO offerings, I still find the previous-generation (2006-2010) M35/M45 very appealing....especially the M35 Sport model! =)

edwardsf

I just finished a lease and much prefer my current option of owning a CPO. Kirstie is right; there is some pressure in having a leased car as you are afraid every ding or tear will be costly. Also, I never felt it was my car ('because it wasn't,' someone will say ; - ).

But leasing a CPO is an interesting idea - no depreciation and you get frequency of change

BTW, I think the BMW CPO is not quite as good as you have it described. When the new car warranty ends the CPO begins. It is consecutive, not cumulative. So, if you have 50k and 2years when you buy a CPO car, the new car warranty ended at 50k. So you only get 2 years or 40k miles of CPO - whatever is less.

I think you pay $50 when you take it in for CPO repairs. Also, the CPO also excludes a few items that are covered in the new car. Still, for $22,000 off the MRSP of a car with no model changes, I will take it.

r34

There is no deductible for the CPO program of Saab (the dealers were more generous to define an issue as warranty work too) but there is a $50 deductible (per service visit) for Audi, BMW, and Infiniti.

Several of my friends got G35 and FX34/45 with no extended warranty or CPO, they seem to be doing fine.

CPO is a way to go for European cars. The repair could be expensive.
I had 3 Saabs. They had good engines but got minor issues. The 9-5 Aero was the best and I still missed it. I wanted to try something different.

I tried the G35x but was not impressed. I was looking at Infiniti EX/FX and BMW 530xi but ended up with a 335xi (love the twin turbo and I didn't need backseats).

I traded one Saab for a V6 A4 and another Saab for a 335xi (I need AWD for my daily commute to Milwaukee from Chicago).Except the 1st Saab, I bought them all as used (CPO).

No big issues with them. The A4 seems to be better. VW is still unreliable but Audi seems to be ok now (mine has zero problem). I test drove the Passat. Audi and VW are different!

I like the interior and the image of of Audi (good for road trip) but I like the power and handling of the Bimmer. If the new S4 is really as good as the 335i, I will definitely get the S4.

If backseats is a MUST, I would pick 535i.

kyfdx

..while technically possible, isn't practical in most cases... Usually, the brand-new model will lease out at a lower price..

New BMW leases include free maintenance... You can really lock in your costs... Tires, gas, insurance... that's it for three years..

If you think that isn't valuable, call your local Infiniti or Lexus dealer and tell the you are bringing in your G or IS for the 30K service and ask for a quote... :surprise:

smarty666

Yeah, but add up the extra amount per month on the lease and what you had to put down on that BMW, similarly equipped of course, to that G or IS and see if it adds up to a lot more, at the end of the 3 or 4 year lease, to what is going to be quoted by the Infiniti or Lexus dealer for the 30K service

Your indirectly paying for that "FREE" maintenance by the Bimmer's higher price premium and lease.

nyccarguy

CPO cars are a great way to "save" money in this ultra competitive Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedan segment. You still have to do some digging & not just take the dealer's word for it as all CPOs are not created equal. Some dealers look at the car with a more finely tuned microscope than others. Check into the service records. Is it a local car serviced by the selling dealership or was it bought at a company auction? One poster on the X3 board (from AZ I think) test drove a CPO X3 that he felt wasn' up to snuff. Something about the back window regualtors being faulty, he ended up buying the X3 in CA I think. You still are buying a used car.

From a "deal" standpoint, leasing a CPO car doesn't make sense. For the simple reason that no 2 CPO cars are alike. The dealer can set their own lease rates & money factors. It isn't like leasing new where there is a November program and the lease rate on every 2011 335i w/ X drive sedan is 0.XXXX or residual is XX%. There are just way too many variables that the dealer controls that you as a consumer don't have access to. Even the asking prices are arbitrary. You could negotiate a fantastic deal of $5K off, and then they jack up the lease rate and say the bank set a low residual.

Free Scheduled maintenance is a crucial sticking point that makes BMW stand out. Yes were are all smart enough that it is built into the car and it isn't technically free. But however they do it, it makes sense. Now many of us use indie mechanics once the warranty period is up, but to prove BMWs practice is valid, you have to assume that people are taking their cars to the dealer for service.

BMWs 1st service comes at around 15K miles. Gets you an oil change.

Now my wife has a 2010 Acura TSX. I had the oil & filter changed at 4500 miles (Synthetic), even though the service advisor begged me to wait until the light goes one (10,000 miles). I think it was a little over $100 with a tire rotation.

Service #2 which is technically the 1st service is what I did at 4500 miles $100+.I did at 10,000 miles.

Service #3 I did at 20,000 miles and I specifically instructed them to only do synthetic oil,filter, & tire roatation.

Many of Acura's "services" they offer are nothing more than visual checks of belts, hoses,lights... along with the oil change & tire rotation probably cost a few hundred dollars.

BMW's 2nd service is an Inspection I service which is a major service at around 30K miles.

Sometime after the 2nd service you are going to need brakes and rotors on your 3 series. At least the fronts. My parents had to have this done on my Mom's '08 328xi also right after the odometer said 50K and it was $700.

They also recently had an Inspection II done (out of warranty) and the car needed rear brakes - $900.

No it it almost isn't fair to compare the TSX to the rest of these because it is by far the least expensive car in the segment.

But take your run of the mill car that's sitting on the luxury dealer's lot which in CT/NY/NJ means AWD, Automatic, Premium Pkg, Cold Weather Pkg, NAV and the sticker prices(328i w/ X Drive, C300 SPort 4 Matic, IS250 AWD, CTS4, A4 2.0T Premium, G37X) can't be that far off, so you definitely have to factor in free maintenance into the equasion. The MSRPs on ALL these cars are north of $40,000.

nyccarguy

CPO cars are definitely worth mentioning in this discussion. There are a lot of these Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans that are leased for whatever the reason. There is a school of thought out there that these cars (especially European makes, totally unfounded BTW) "turn into pumpkins" once the twarranty runs out. The fact is that all of these cars are exceptionally well built and are priced accordingly between $40<000 & $50,000. My experience with the '01 Prelude (130K miles) leads me to believe that these (and most modern) cars will run well past 50K miles with no major problems as long as you maintain them.

I've only bought new since my 16th birthday, but I'd strongly consider a used 3 or G as my next ride. Payments on a high $20K car are a lot easier to swallow than on a $40- $50K car.

sweendogy

i agree with car guy--i bot a new G 3.5 years ago now and for close to 40k -- lot of money over 3 years -- 2 weeks ago for my wife we got a 2007 cr-v -(dont laugh) but the 2010s were over 30k fully loaded - her 2007 saved me 12k from new is certified by honda and has only 19k miles on it.. we were also able to pick and choose the one we wanted (just like new) and as a second car it was a no brainer.

smarty666

I tend to agree with you about CPO, especially with the Germans, since they don't retain their resale value as well as the Japanese, by getting CPO with them, your not taking the brunt of the depreciation like the original owner has.

Only disadvantage to CPO is that most, not all, but most of the CPO's I see on the luxury lots you have no idea how the previous owner took care of it (what kind of oil did they use, tires rotated properly, cleaned interior regularly, etc). I've found most do nothing to keep up the leather and vinyl interiors and they look like utter crap at only the 2 or 3 year mark when they are back on the lot as CPO and then you have a pain in the butt time trying to undo the neglect the first owner did. The stealers did little as possible to really clean up the car for used sales again, especially on the interior.

But from a value proportion, money, and just to be in a luxury name, I can definitely see the attraction to CPO!

sweendogy

smarty i would of guessed the germans (certainly bmw) would keep values-- i mean they lease more bmws then other cars in the group (my guess is the TL is prob second on the lease vs buy list) and the main reason is resale value-- prob part of the reason why bmw offered free oilchanges and other things to get people to lease a car that costs over 45k..plus bmw could sell a 3 year old 3 series for over 30k.

I would dissagree with you on your CPO diss- the CPO report includes past maintenance -(btw is this the same lot you talked about hyundai, in the TL chat?) and if a car is certified i would wonder why bmw/audi/ infiniti would sell a car that was not properly cared for..certainly with whats going on with toyota and if there is data to say the car was not up to certification-- you think they want bad press for including a car that has not infact passed the 150 pt inspection. Your talking about a 3 year old car that has less then 40k miles on it-- how bad is the leather?? does it have rips?? how they cared for it--come on -- if it has a rip the dealer fixes it. I have no idea where you are looking at CPO's (the same hyundai dealer ?)-- but you should look to see what reports on each car are avail before making such comments on "MOST" CPOS..

Value yes -- lux name yes-- attraction yes.-- :shades:

roadburner

Only disadvantage to CPO is that most, not all, but most of the CPO's I see on the luxury lots you have no idea how the previous owner took care of it (what kind of oil did they use, tires rotated properly, cleaned interior regularly, etc). I've found most do nothing to keep up the leather and vinyl interiors and they look like utter crap at only the 2 or 3 year mark when they are back on the lot as CPO and then you have a pain in the butt time trying to undo the neglect the first owner did. The stealers did little as possible to really clean up the car for used sales again, especially on the interior.

I couldn't agree more, my 2004 X3 CPO(purchased in 12/05) looks like crap- especially after six years and 103,000 miles:

smarty666

you need to do more readings on resale values, the Japanese have always had a edge over that then the Germans; there is nothing wrong with that, heck the Germans retain value better than the American brand still so its all good whether you go Japanese or German in regards to resale value and depreciation. Check out ALG website for the residual value awards and you'll see Acura tops the list for the last 2 or 3 years I believe, several other sites list Acura as top for resale value followed closely by Lexus and Infiniti.

I hate to break it to you but CPO does not include past maintenance; I've returned plenty of lease vehicles from different manufacturers over the years who did not even care to see my maintenance records so there is no possible way for them to know, when they act like that at lease return, how the car was maintained and I'm sorry, but I've seen plenty of 2, 3, and 4 year old CPO cars out on the stealers lots for sale with really bad interior care from the previous owners; some of the stealers do the bare minimum when they put the cars back out on the used car lot for sale, you want to know why "ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS MAKING MONEY, THEY ARE A BUSINESS"

I'm talking about some scratches, rips, severe wrinkles, discoloring, etc on the leather/vinyl; this is noticeable, at least to a car guy like me who takes excessive care of his vehicles, maybe not to the common folk but to me; some of the interiors look like the leather is 7, 8, or 9 years old when its really only 3 or 4. You can tell when looking at a vinyl or leather interior whether its been kept up or not.

Your naive if you think that all the stealers really do all that they say they do in their marketing ploys for CPO. They just make sure things work in the car and that nothing is broken, and they give the car a wash and wax before putting it out on the lot.

And if you read what I said carefully, which you rarely do, I said the CPO's I HAVE SEEN, most had interiors that were very worn and not kept up!

smarty666

She's in nice shape! I can tell just by the pictures that you take care of her on a regular basis. The conditions I am talking about are nothing like that!

Was that the condition you got her in or is that after years of your tender love and care?

roadburner

Was that the condition you got her in or is that after years of your tender love and care?

The picture was taken last summer, but it looked the same when we bought it; most of our friends thought it was a brand new truck.
On BMW vehicles you can verify the dealer service/repair history if you have the last seven digits of the VIN; right now I'm looking at a 37K mile 2007 CPO 335i and I know where, when, and what services have been performed.

tcasboy

You should get that steering wheel fixed, it is awfully crooked. :P