Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

graphicguy

You can see the trends...BMW getting more "middle of the road" as is Infiniti.

Audi seems to straddle the line a bit with it's regular A series, and cranks up the performance with the S and RS series.

Caddy is moving more towards the good handling/performing, well built sports sedans in addition to handing with the perennial "cash cow) Escalade.

Acura, while I've always liked them, admittedly seemed to have been hit particularly hard by the crisis in Japan over the Tsunami and the subsequent nuclear reactor fall out. I think they're just now really recovering from that, Not sure why it's taken them so long to regroup vs their car manufacturing counter parts, but it has.

I've read that Honda is ready to jump back into the fray with Si type products. And, you can see some of that trickling into the Acura space with the NSX, upgraded ILX, and what I'm betting will be a TLX-S not too far out. They're already the "wagon" of choice umping the more upscale SUV shoppers.

Funny about BMW. I like them as well as any other brand I've owned. However, they do have a tendency to play the "ready-fire-aim" game. Take for instance the iDrive. When it first came out, it was terrible. BMW said we didn't understand it. That was part of the problem. They built an interface that no one understood. Now, we see them moving away from their "core" values as a car maker. They're getting further and further removed from the attributes that built them as a company.

They say we want "numb" steering....really? Who told them that? Their market research is WAY flawed. Yet, they carry on, trying to convince us the problem is with their customers, not their engineering.

May not hurt them now, but as their competition comes rushing in to fill the vacuum, they'll eventually find that they aren't alone as the "ultimate driving machine".

roadburner

graphicguy said:

You can see the trends...BMW getting more "middle of the road" as is Infiniti.

They say we want "numb" steering....really? Who told them that? Their market research is WAY flawed. Yet, they carry on, trying to convince us the problem is with their customers, not their engineering.

May not hurt them now, but as their competition comes rushing in to fill the vacuum, they'll eventually find that they aren't alone as the "ultimate driving machine".

I like this quote from 2006:

BMW execs have insinuated that BMW customers don't like the new styling and iDrive because they aren't bright enough to appreciate them. Talk about arrogant.

Mr_Shiftright

A German automaker said that? I'm shocked....SHOCKED!

graphicguy

roadburner said:

graphicguy said:

You can see the trends...BMW getting more "middle of the road" as is Infiniti.

They say we want "numb" steering....really? Who told them that? Their market research is WAY flawed. Yet, they carry on, trying to convince us the problem is with their customers, not their engineering.

May not hurt them now, but as their competition comes rushing in to fill the vacuum, they'll eventually find that they aren't alone as the "ultimate driving machine".

I like this quote from 2006:

BMW execs have insinuated that BMW customers don't like the new styling and iDrive because they aren't bright enough to appreciate them. Talk about arrogant.

Kind of sums up their attitude in a nutshell......thanks RB! I've read a couple of different articles that state essentially the same thing about BMW's views.

circlew

Yes, I chose hydraulic steering.

carnaught

Circle, how's the engine sound from the cockpit in your Q? Is it prominent but toned down from the intrusive sounds in the last generation of G. I understand it is much more pleasant of an engine (or exhaust) note.

markcincinnati

Please chill -- overall, typically, generally speaking, etc, etc, things are as they are due to the market.

For example, if shoppers who become buyers would buy "whatever" you can bet the supplier would provide as much "whatever" as possible.

I live in Cincinnati -- Cincinnati surrounds a city called Norwood. Norwood WAS the city that made Firebirds and Camaros. WAS the city. The folks that built the cars did such insane things as put pop bottles in the doors, assuring the cars would be delivered with rattles. Time and time again GM would give in to the workers demands for "whatever"" -- predictably and obviously, but not so to the folks who actually built the cars, GM said, to hell with it, and announced the closing of the plant. Millions of dollars of salary and taxes would come to an end. The response? The workers "threatened" productivity.

Too little, too late.

I bought and/or leased ONLY stick shift cars through 2003. I couldn't even take my car to a full service car wash, no one knew how to drive it -- once the noise and smell of my gears grinding and clutch melting was so terrifying, I decided, "I'm done -- the basterds (spelled that way on purpose) have won."

YOU are the reason the cars are as they are -- I bought nearly 30 manual transmission cars (from Germany, no less) the rest of you folks were buying auto transmissions. Now, after the plant's closing you threaten productivity? Too little too late.

Now, you're being told, I gather, that if you want what ever it is that you want, you can find it in an "M" BMW -- well, folks, if you don't buy them, you can be 100% certain whatever it is that you think you want will be discontinued due to a lack of paying customers.

The cars are as they are due to the market's acceptance (measured in BUYERS) of whatever it is they sell.

If they sell purple, green, red and blue and no one buys a blue one -- figure out what will happen to the availability of future blue ones.

You'd think this was some sort of plot against you -- foisted upon you by evil car manufacturers who only want to produce more and more car models and configurations that no one whats?!? Pull the other one.

I don't know what is being taught today at US universities that passes for economics, but it must not include the simple explanation of demand and supply.

Have you seen some of the car ads on TV? Some of them portray the company's cars being driven by handsome men and pretty women zooming off in the "fill in the blank" equipped with a stick shift. Clearly some cars with virtually nil up take on the cars marketed, still market the notion that folks lust for stick shifts (for example) -- where the rubber meets the road (where the cash changes hands) the transmissions are rarely manual.

Let's talk about the upcoming reality, more and more driver aids -- less and less driver involvement -- that is where everything is heading. The reason things are heading where ever it is they are heading is MONEY.

If you think we should have BMWs like they used to be decades ago, fine -- pony up the money.

Not gonna happen, not gonna happen.

I took a long test drive of an Audi S5 with the torque vectoring rear differential option and a DSG transmission -- Old School would be run over, chewed up and spit out by this . . . nothing old school, affordable by mere mortals, even comes close to this kind of performance.

It's all about the Benjamins.

Mr_Shiftright

I think we'll find that as the driving situation on American roads becomes more and more awful, the cars themselves, and their drivers, will continue to adapt to this new environment. The Model T Ford succeeded by paying close attention to the roads it was going to be used on, and I think the modern car is rushing headlong into providing a) safety b) convenience c) comfort, over any "thrill" of driving. Your average driver of a new S5 will never push the car to anywhere close to its capabilities.

markcincinnati

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think we'll find that as the driving situation on American roads becomes more and more awful, the cars themselves, and their drivers, will continue to adapt to this new environment. The Model T Ford succeeded by paying close attention to the roads it was going to be used on, and I think the modern car is rushing headlong into providing a) safety b) convenience c) comfort, over any "thrill" of driving. Your average driver of a new S5 will never push the car to anywhere close to its capabilities.

Completely agree. In fact, MOST drivers, not just the average one's will never even come close to what a lot of cars are actually capable of doing.

Mean time, we're heading faster and faster toward more and more of less (that would be autonomous driving).

Much as I like most of the new tech -- I must admit I will miss driving (mostly).

My morning and evening drives to and from work, would be fine for a car that would drive itself and leave me out of the equation -- to enjoy my dopio.

circlew

CN, it's the first thing I noticed. The noise isolation is far better in the Q. It adds that ingredient of sophistication the G lacked but also the engine sounds better as well, particularly during rev-match when shifting in sport mode.

cdnpinhead

So. . . I guess we should all just take the gas pipe.

Driving, or what's left of it, will soon disappear altogether.

Maybe for you, but not for me out here where there aren't quite so many people.

markcincinnati

When you're bored . . .

. . . and you're 63 and your wife loves driving -- "every mile's a smile" -- and it is a truly beautiful day in SW Ohio (Saturday last), what do you do? Answer: You take cars out and drive them.

I must admit, I wasn't all that keen on driving a dealer's car, especially since I know and they know and I know they know I know, that neither of us are currently in the market; but my sales rep, Greg, had a 2015 S5 with the Sport Differential option (and 60 miles on the OD) just sitting there, and, well, he knows my wife doesn't have any experience behind the wheel of an Audi S car with torque vectoring (TV). The rest as they say was inevitable.

We went out for a long drive on familiar twisty (and in great condition) secondary roads. I went first at my wife's insistence to somewhat demonstrate what rear torque vectoring added to a rear-biased (60%) AWD car equipped with max performance 35 series summer only tires can do, out of the box.

As I am familiar with the road where a sign indicating 15 MPH (right turn corner) is the correct speed, according to the Ohio DOT, to navigate the turn, I know my non-TV equipped S4 can take said curve @ 45 MPH. Therefore I assume that with the summer-only super sticky tires (I do not have these) and the TV option, the TV equipped car ought to be at least good for another 5 - 10 MPH without drama.

I was proven correct in that I easily took this "curve" at 54 MPH with help from what feels like it could be "The Hand of God." Entering the corner "hot" (but maintaining, NOT accelerating) was a little unnerving at first, but when I reached the apex of the corner, I dialed in about an inch more lock and a like amount of throttle.

The rear end of the car was seemingly grabbed by a giant foam rubber hand and the car "carved" right through he corner as if something or some one had gripped the rear quarter panels low to the ground and simply pushed me through the corner, virtually drama free. Speed? Yes? A bit of a rush coming out of the apex of the curve? Oh hell yes!

Next up a left hand curve with a bit of a an opposite (from the expected and helpful) bank meaning the car was not helped at all by the highway engineer's decision to have the apex of the curve have a crown rather than a scallop. Once again, almost counter-intuitively I entered the curve hot, waited for the apex where I cut the wheel to the left (a bit) while simultaneously punching the gas "with feeling."

Again, the invisible hand pushed the car, as if it were on rails, through the horribly under-engineered road.

A couple of nice, virtually deserted straight-a-ways where the supercharged engine at full throttle thrilled, rounded out the first half of the "test."

Up next, my wife -- our idea was this: I drove the outbound route and she would drive the return route, retracing my steps (in the opposite direction). My left curves were her rights, and so on.

Once she got the hang of cutting the wheel just a bit more than seemed "natural" at the apex and punching the gas, she too was calling TV the hand of god.

I guess, other than sharing this with y'all, I would invite you to experience a powerful car with rear biased torque split, aggressive summer tires and a "sport differential." Someone once said, "nothing else even comes close."

I am "OK" with not having a car equipped with torque vectoring -- but, given a choice, I will never get another car (on purpose) without it. The Acura's SH-AWD is a great piece of tech; but, the issue is: It is installed on a car with a 90%/10% f/r torque split and the ability to shift a maximum of power to the rear of just 50%.

So while I admire and recommend only getting an Acura equipped with SH-AWD, if you're looking at the brand, I can attest that, good as it is, nothing even comes close to the implementation of TV in the S5 I drove this weekend.

Too bad I'm not in the market -- for an S4 thusly equipped would be sick.

Drive it like you live.

Mark, reporting from somewhere in Cincinnati -

markcincinnati

Next up, two more test drives, one in a $56,000 A5 2.0T quattro Cabriolet and one in a $67,000 S5 Cabriolet.

Hmm, 365.25 days in a year.

Question to self: Would you REALLY drive with the top down even 36 days per year (about 10%), or would the real number be even lower. Maybe a Cabriolet makes sense in LA,

Both cars were super smooth, top up or down. The S5 was the champ due to the engine and transmission -- and, if you feel the need for losing your top, either one of these cars certainly scratch the convertible itch. . .but, no thank you.

Not feelin' the Audi convertibles -- no matter how nice they are.

Not feelin' any convertible, if you axe me.

cdnpinhead

Here in Phoenix I drove my Miatas with the top down ~40% of the time. I had a toneau cover and used the heater when necessary to good advantage. Of course, the issue here is the heat, and the Miatas had decent A/C.

I drove an MGB over 100K miles in the '70s, and it had the top down a lot of the time as well -- no need to worry about A/C.

Most places are less conducive to roadsters, or the high-dollar equivalents discussed here.

Mr_Shiftright

One thing I don't like about convertibles in metro areas is that you and the car's interior get dirty from junk in the air.

flightnurse

Mr_Shiftright said:

One thing I don't like about convertibles in metro areas is that you and the car's interior get dirty from junk in the air.

LOL, there are always hazards of driving convertibles...

flightnurse

So this past week, the windshield cracked on the BMW, When I got home called the dealer to see what they charge, was quoted $635 for the Windshield, and seal, then labor at $172/hr x 3 hours ($516) for a total of $1,151.. Of course the service manager is telling me how important it is to have the window replaces at the BMW because as he put it, he has seen some horrible jobs which cost the owner thousands of dollars to repair.. We have gieco for insurance company, and have zero deductible, but they will only pay $40 an hour for labor.. So I contacted Safelite, my quote complete with a BMW windshield was $634, this they came to the house and replaced it. It was interesting to hear this guy talk, he and another guy only do high end cars and they are the ones who go the dealership and do them.. So the dealer was going to make $500 bucks by having someone else do the work...

So let you people know that Safelite can get OEM windshields and save some money and hassle, since they bill the insurance company direct...

robr2

Very true. Few dealerships have the ability to change a windshield. They just sub it out and mark up the price.

Even getting OEM glass isn't that simple. My understanding is that the OEM parts depots don't stock many windshields because of the time it takes to ship one via truck to the dealer. The aftermarket glass industry does such a good job and does it immediately that it's almost pointless for dealers to try and replace windshields.

I've had 3 windshields replaced, all by Safelite and IIRC, all the glass was Carlite who is a huge OEM and aftermarket auto glass company.

kyfdx

I just caught a rock a couple of weeks ago... My BMW dealer actually does windshields, which I didn't know until I called them for a recommendation.

But, $1200 estimate vs. $600 for the local specialist... only about $200 of that can be attributed to the cost of the OEM windshield..

Just have a star right now, so I'm waiting to decide what to do..

Mr_Shiftright

Not sure I want the sun baking those electronics and leather interior!

flightnurse said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

One thing I don't like about convertibles in metro areas is that you and the car's interior get dirty from junk in the air.

LOL, there are always hazards of driving convertibles...

flightnurse

robr2 said:

Very true. Few dealerships have the ability to change a windshield. They just sub it out and mark up the price.

Even getting OEM glass isn't that simple. My understanding is that the OEM parts depots don't stock many windshields because of the time it takes to ship one via truck to the dealer. The aftermarket glass industry does such a good job and does it immediately that it's almost pointless for dealers to try and replace windshields.

I've had 3 windshields replaced, all by Safelite and IIRC, all the glass was Carlite who is a huge OEM and aftermarket auto glass company.

Rick had his windshield replaced on his Geneses twice, the first one was so distorted that I was surprised that the installer from safelite even installed, that was replaced the same day, his second one was OEM and didn't have a problem. So I'm not too sure if that makes a difference or not but I wanted OEM glass installed.

roadburner

My dealer's service department is one of the primary reason's that I've stayed with BMW as long as I have. My Service Advisor never tries to push unnecessary repairs or service and will tell me up front if a less expensive alternative is available. And, since my SA and a couple of the sales guys are HPDE junkies, I have never had a problem with warranty coverage on the cars I track.

sda

markcincinnati said:

Old School -- not even sure, anymore, what that means exactly. I wouldn't give up ABS, ESP, Blind Spot Warnings, Parktronic, Rear, Front, Top-view cameras, torque vectoring differentials, brake assist, turbo or super charged "cleaner" engines, adjustable suspensions, dual clutch "automatic manual" transmissions, fuel stratified injection, voice commands, hand and eyes free phoning capabilities, sat navigation and all the apparently "New School" tech noted and most of what I didn't note, too.

My all time favorite car -- until now -- was a 1995 Audi S6, fully loaded, manual transmission version. I loved that car. As my newer cars came along, I appreciated their improved technology, safety, performance and luxury, but that certain something the 1995 S6 had was always something I looked and hoped for.

Finally, my '14 S4 has both that "certain something" (old school) coupled with the tech and features available on a modern car (new school).

I bet if someone brought me a pristine 1995 S6 to drive, I'd find it, today, underwhelming.

Of course, that was then, this is now . . . I've let go of the past, even though I still remember it with great affection.

I really doubt there would be much of a market for old school vehicles anyway. . . .

I can't wait for "the next" new school treat from the planet's best automakers.

Signed,

Often wrong, never uncertain.

I often reflect nostalgically about cars I've had in the past. The driving dynamics, features, etc. of new cars have improved so drastically in the last decade that if I was to drive one of my old favorites today I bet I would be very disappointed. My current 13 Accord is faster than many V-8s I've owned, gets 30mpg plus and doesn't require frequent maintenance and has been trouble free at 38000mi. It is safer, full of modern tech features, a pleasure to own. A far cry from roll up windows and an AM radio!

nyccarguy

I know we've spoken at length here about modifying cars via ECU reflashes and such. Certain manufacturers are lobbying to make it illegal to modify your car's computer.

I have a friend with a 2012 X5 ///M & a 2013 ///M5. He's had both cars "DINAN Chipped" (as well as exhaust & suspension on the ///M5) and literally has nothing but problems with the cars. When they work, he LOVES the cars (and his wife's B7 X-Drive Alpina). But when he mashes the gas pedal trying to merge and gets a warning chime followed by a "drive train malfunction" message on his iDrive screen while his car goes into limp mode, he is less than thrilled.

markcincinnati

There are "chip" providers that do provide a warranty -- far as I know, though, most of their products are NOT approved by the MFG's. Volvo has partnered with Polestar and cars chipped (from the factory, of course) by Polestar are covered by the OEM warranty. I don't know if Dinan has any formal relationship with BMW that somehow protects a customer with a Dinan modded BMW from financial ruin. I don't think StaSIS modded Audis carry an official Audi warranty, but cars so outfitted by StaSIS do have a full warranty and there are actual Audi dealers who retail from the ground up StaSIS outfitted versions.

I chipped an Audi TT (MTM chip) and sometimes under full throttle, the engine would just shut off, requiring the car to be restarted. It did this intermittently, and it wasn't until we decided to trade the car in on a more powerful TT that MTM came out with the "software patch" that cured this issue.

Chipping, initially, is an inexpensive way to get gobs of power (mostly torque) from blown engines -- but unless the chip's effects are 100% reliable and predictable, well, I am of the opinion that I will just get a bigger meaner more powerful version of the car in question, rather than trying to patch the OEM's software for engine management. Limp home mode is scary -- worse than that it can be unsafe.

I'll live with 333HP and 325 pound feet -- I know the next one will have more of both and get better mileage, too. Poor poor me -- how can I possibly have the power to pass safely on the highway with such a tiny power package?!?

roadburner

nyccarguy said:

I know we've spoken at length here about modifying cars via ECU reflashes and such. Certain manufacturers are lobbying to make it illegal to modify your car's computer.

I have a friend with a 2012 X5 ///M & a 2013 ///M5. He's had both cars "DINAN Chipped" (as well as exhaust & suspension on the ///M5) and literally has nothing but problems with the cars. When they work, he LOVES the cars (and his wife's B7 X-Drive Alpina). But when he mashes the gas pedal trying to merge and gets a warning chime followed by a "drive train malfunction" message on his iDrive screen while his car goes into limp mode, he is less than thrilled.

That's very odd; I believe that Dinan uses piggyback tuners on those cars. I've run Dinan and Conforti chips in pre-OBDII Bimmers with no issues at all.
The Hypertech tune for my MS3(when paired and calibrated for the Mazdaspeed CAI) boosted my power by 46 hp and also added 44 lb-ft of twist- @314 hp and 324 lb-ft of torque. No SES faults and no driveability issues- and fuel economy actually increased a bit. No regrets whatsoever.

flightnurse

markcincinnati said:

There are "chip" providers that do provide a warranty -- far as I know, though, most of their products are NOT approved by the MFG's. Volvo has partnered with Polestar and cars chipped (from the factory, of course) by Polestar are covered by the OEM warranty. I don't know if Dinan has any formal relationship with BMW that somehow protects a customer with a Dinan modded BMW from financial ruin. I don't think StaSIS modded Audis carry an official Audi warranty, but cars so outfitted by StaSIS do have a full warranty and there are actual Audi dealers who retail from the ground up StaSIS outfitted versions.

Dinan and BMW work closely together, and if you have any Dinan work at an authorized Dinan shop, it is covered under the factory BMW warranty. My 330 had many Dinan upgrades to it and never had a problem. My piggy back on my 320 has been flawless, not one problem, no code issues. Now if I had a M5 and was having issues after upgrades, I would take those upgrades off and want my money back... No fun having a car like a M5 sitting in the shop..

flightnurse

roadburner said:

nyccarguy said:

I know we've spoken at length here about modifying cars via ECU reflashes and such. Certain manufacturers are lobbying to make it illegal to modify your car's computer.

I have a friend with a 2012 X5 ///M & a 2013 ///M5. He's had both cars "DINAN Chipped" (as well as exhaust & suspension on the ///M5) and literally has nothing but problems with the cars. When they work, he LOVES the cars (and his wife's B7 X-Drive Alpina). But when he mashes the gas pedal trying to merge and gets a warning chime followed by a "drive train malfunction" message on his iDrive screen while his car goes into limp mode, he is less than thrilled.

That's very odd; I believe that Dinan uses piggyback tuners on those cars. I've run Dinan and Conforti chips in pre-OBDII Bimmers with no issues at all.
The Hypertech tune for my MS3(when paired and calibrated for the Mazdaspeed CAI) boosted my power by 46 hp and also added 44 lb-ft of twist- @314 hp and 324 lb-ft of torque. No SES faults and no driveability issues- and fuel economy actually increased a bit. No regrets whatsoever.

The other issue I have with Dinan is the price, Dinan just came out with a new line of Electronic tunes for the F cars, starting at a low price of $1500... My tune was $357.. The Dinan tune is to make 237hp for the El Cheapo 320i, the claim doesn't whether it is crank HP or RWP.

roadburner

Dinan has always been the very high priced option; the Hypertech for my Mazda has a street price of $400. The Ford Racing power kit(tuner, plugs, cold air intake) for the Focus ST boosts torque by 90 lb-ft and preserves the factory warranty when installed by a dealer. It's only $795.

flightnurse

roadburner said:

Dinan has always been the very high priced option; the Hypertech for my Mazda has a street price of $400. The Ford Racing power kit(tuner, plugs, cold air intake) for the Focus ST boosts torque by 90 lb-ft and preserves the factory warranty when installed by a dealer. It's only $795.

I agree they are pricey but I really think they are crazy expensive these days, I had about $8K of Dinan in my 330, which went pretty far..

markcincinnati

How is it that a power-plant that outputs, say, 250 pound feet BEFORE chipping and 340 AFTER not putting stress on the transmission originally designed for the original torque output (with some margin built in for durability)? The thing is, such upgrades of blown engines often do produce massive torque improvements (at low RPM's) -- and initially there usually does not appear to be any negative consequences of the added twist. But, over time, won't the transmission almost be expected to have a reduced lifespan?

My point would be "let the buyer beware" -- go with a factory approved chip provider, if one exists. If Dinan does not risk the warranty, go with them for your BMW upgrad; if APR has no affiliation with Audi, well, be guided accordingly and put about $15,000 in a bank account called "Just In Case" -- or just get the uprated model usually offered by the manufacturer in the first place.

This (the above) is coming from a been there done that perspective -- my wife was becoming a sitting duck everytime she attempted to merge with high speed traffic. We ended up just getting the high output version of the car -- shoulda gone with that one in the first place.

It continues to amaze me as I read the posts on Audiworld.com made by people who haven't even signed the papers for their new fill-in-the-blank Audi model -- usually titled "Let the mods begin." Folks are buying A4 SLines and immediately begin spending sometimes governmental sums in an attempt to turn their SLine A4's into S4's. Why not just buy an S4 in the first place -- about the same costs, sometimes less and no warranty risk.

Color me confused.

Nevertheless, drive it like you live.

roadburner

flightnurse said:

roadburner said:

Dinan has always been the very high priced option; the Hypertech for my Mazda has a street price of $400. The Ford Racing power kit(tuner, plugs, cold air intake) for the Focus ST boosts torque by 90 lb-ft and preserves the factory warranty when installed by a dealer. It's only $795.

I agree they are pricey but I really think they are crazy expensive these days, I had about $8K of Dinan in my 330, which went pretty far..

Maybe it's to cover the warranty exposure; who knows?

nyccarguy

@markcincinnati "This (the above) is coming from a been there done that perspective -- my wife was becoming a sitting duck everytime she attempted to merge with high speed traffic. We ended up just getting the high output version of the car -- shoulda gone with that one in the first place."

Driving what? A 3 cylinder Geo Metro Convertible with a 3 speed automatic transmission? My daily driver is a 175 horsepower, 4 cylinder, normally aspirated Subaru Legacy. While it is far from a performance vehicle as far as acceleration goes. I'd categorize the Legacy's get up & go as adequate. We have some old roads with some very short on ramps with stop signs at the end. Now I need to plan ahead, but have no problem getting up to speed eventually.

Mr_Shiftright

If you want a much faster car, buy a much faster car. Not only does it hurt resale value (unless it is easily reversible) to make these mods, but there's always give and take in terms of effects upon the car. You don't get something for nothing. My Mini is now 40 hp faster but it also burns fuel a lot faster.

markcincinnati said:

How is it that a power-plant that outputs, say, 250 pound feet BEFORE chipping and 340 AFTER not putting stress on the transmission originally designed for the original torque output (with some margin built in for durability)? The thing is, such upgrades of blown engines often do produce massive torque improvements (at low RPM's) -- and initially there usually does not appear to be any negative consequences of the added twist. But, over time, won't the transmission almost be expected to have a reduced lifespan?

My point would be "let the buyer beware" -- go with a factory approved chip provider, if one exists. If Dinan does not risk the warranty, go with them for your BMW upgrad; if APR has no affiliation with Audi, well, be guided accordingly and put about $15,000 in a bank account called "Just In Case" -- or just get the uprated model usually offered by the manufacturer in the first place.

This (the above) is coming from a been there done that perspective -- my wife was becoming a sitting duck everytime she attempted to merge with high speed traffic. We ended up just getting the high output version of the car -- shoulda gone with that one in the first place.

It continues to amaze me as I read the posts on Audiworld.com made by people who haven't even signed the papers for their new fill-in-the-blank Audi model -- usually titled "Let the mods begin." Folks are buying A4 SLines and immediately begin spending sometimes governmental sums in an attempt to turn their SLine A4's into S4's. Why not just buy an S4 in the first place -- about the same costs, sometimes less and no warranty risk.

Color me confused.

Nevertheless, drive it like you live.

flightnurse

markcincinnati said:

How is it that a power-plant that outputs, say, 250 pound feet BEFORE chipping and 340 AFTER not putting stress on the transmission originally designed for the original torque output (with some margin built in for durability)? The thing is, such upgrades of blown engines often do produce massive torque improvements (at low RPM's) -- and initially there usually does not appear to be any negative consequences of the added twist. But, over time, won't the transmission almost be expected to have a reduced lifespan?

This is an excellent question, maybe BMW and Audi have one transmission that is used in all of thier cars, maybe the 8spd in my 320i is the same as used in the 550i, if so then the transmission can handle the extra power and torque..

kyfdx

flightnurse said:

markcincinnati said:

How is it that a power-plant that outputs, say, 250 pound feet BEFORE chipping and 340 AFTER not putting stress on the transmission originally designed for the original torque output (with some margin built in for durability)? The thing is, such upgrades of blown engines often do produce massive torque improvements (at low RPM's) -- and initially there usually does not appear to be any negative consequences of the added twist. But, over time, won't the transmission almost be expected to have a reduced lifespan?

This is an excellent question, maybe BMW and Audi have one transmission that is used in all of thier cars, maybe the 8spd in my 320i is the same as used in the 550i, if so then the transmission can handle the extra power and torque..

Do you really think so??

roadburner

The 8 sp

flightnurse said:

markcincinnati said:

How is it that a power-plant that outputs, say, 250 pound feet BEFORE chipping and 340 AFTER not putting stress on the transmission originally designed for the original torque output (with some margin built in for durability)? The thing is, such upgrades of blown engines often do produce massive torque improvements (at low RPM's) -- and initially there usually does not appear to be any negative consequences of the added twist. But, over time, won't the transmission almost be expected to have a reduced lifespan?

This is an excellent question, maybe BMW and Audi have one transmission that is used in all of thier cars, maybe the 8spd in my 320i is the same as used in the 550i, if so then the transmission can handle the extra power and torque..

The 8 speed ZF(8HPxx) is used in a lot of different brands and depending on the model it can handle anywhere from 332 lb-ft to 665 lb-ft of torque. That said, the F20, F30 and F10 get the 8HP45, which is not as strong as the 8HP70- which sees duty in the F01, E70, and all the Chrysler/Dodge Hemis save the Hellcats(8HP90).

flightnurse

roadburner said:

The 8 sp

flightnurse said:

markcincinnati said:

How is it that a power-plant that outputs, say, 250 pound feet BEFORE chipping and 340 AFTER not putting stress on the transmission originally designed for the original torque output (with some margin built in for durability)? The thing is, such upgrades of blown engines often do produce massive torque improvements (at low RPM's) -- and initially there usually does not appear to be any negative consequences of the added twist. But, over time, won't the transmission almost be expected to have a reduced lifespan?

This is an excellent question, maybe BMW and Audi have one transmission that is used in all of thier cars, maybe the 8spd in my 320i is the same as used in the 550i, if so then the transmission can handle the extra power and torque..

The 8 speed ZF(8HPxx) is used in a lot of different brands and depending on the model it can handle anywhere from 332 lb-ft to 665 lb-ft of torque. That said, the F20, F30 and F10 get the 8HP45, which is not as strong as the 8HP70- which sees duty in the F01, E70, and all the Chrysler/Dodge Hemis save the Hellcats(8HP90).

So the F10 550i gets the weaker transmission?

roadburner

My mistake- the 550i gets the 8HP70- as do all the BMW V8s.

flightnurse

roadburner said:

My mistake- the 550i gets the 8HP70- as do all the BMW V8s.

Interesting even the 35d's with the 400+ lbs of torque..

roadburner

Yes; the 335d gets the 8HP45- go figure; I remember a BMW engineer saying that the reason that the 335d was only available with an automatic was because they didn't have a manual box that could withstand the torque...

andres3

rayainsw said:

I like the V8 Charger a lot, thanks. No issues at almost 4,000 miles.

There is certainly much to like about the S3, for me.
However, the price is quite high when well equipped,
to me \ from my point of view.

For example:
Although the motor is certainly a very good 4 cylinder, it is still a 4 cylinder – and does not really make the sort of sounds I associate with the price point. Ultimate acceleration is certainly acceptable, but I prefer more immediate torque delivery from low RPM. It does pull well, once RPM & boost climb. The DCT & final drive gearing requires much, MUCH higher RPM in top gear at cruising speeds than I prefer.

The interior rear view mirror is absurdly small.

The sunroof has only a mesh cover \ sunshade – not a solid one. Here in HotLanta, that is really not a good idea. . .

Although handling inspired confidence, I agree regarding the ride quality. Part of that may also be the S3’s relatively short wheelbase.

The interior materials seemed appropriately high quality, and the seats were comfortable and supportive. With full leather seating, I do appreciate the fact that cooling is available for those seats in the Charger – and it works really well!

I liked the fact that the S3’s center armrest adjusts up\down & fore\aft – a nice touch. I do prefer the nav screen being in the dash, instead of popping up above it.

Clearly, many of these are just a reflection of my own personal preferences.
That’s all I recall – last drove one in December.

- Ray
Quite happy with my current choice . . .

I agree with your review of the S3.

They should have used the amazing 7-speed DSG unit from the S4, not the same old 6-speed dating from 2006. That would solve your RPM at high cruising speed dilemma.

They should offer an option to forego the sun/moon roof, save a grand, and save the hassles of an improper cover.

andres3

m6user said:

I love the way that many people literally accuse these mags of accepting bribes to slant reviews and then turn around and use these same mags as sources.  Count the ads???  If you make the accusation why don't you count the ads and prove your point.  I'm not naive but I tire of the off the cuff indictments without ever citing any actual proof.  The mags might not always be right but "monthly checked was bumped"?  Please.

I've long stated and believed that the only mag that doesn't sound like cheerleader marketing was Consumer Reports. It would be hard to pinpoint obvious direct blatant biases with proof, but you get the general impression of bias from advertisers in magazines that derive income from advertisers.

andres3

markcincinnati said:

When you're bored . . .

. . . and you're 63 and your wife loves driving -- "every mile's a smile" -- and it is a truly beautiful day in SW Ohio (Saturday last), what do you do? Answer: You take cars out and drive them.

I must admit, I wasn't all that keen on driving a dealer's car, especially since I know and they know and I know they know I know, that neither of us are currently in the market; but my sales rep, Greg, had a 2015 S5 with the Sport Differential option (and 60 miles on the OD) just sitting there, and, well, he knows my wife doesn't have any experience behind the wheel of an Audi S car with torque vectoring (TV). The rest as they say was inevitable.

We went out for a long drive on familiar twisty (and in great condition) secondary roads. I went first at my wife's insistence to somewhat demonstrate what rear torque vectoring added to a rear-biased (60%) AWD car equipped with max performance 35 series summer only tires can do, out of the box.

As I am familiar with the road where a sign indicating 15 MPH (right turn corner) is the correct speed, according to the Ohio DOT, to navigate the turn, I know my non-TV equipped S4 can take said curve @ 45 MPH. Therefore I assume that with the summer-only super sticky tires (I do not have these) and the TV option, the TV equipped car ought to be at least good for another 5 - 10 MPH without drama.

I was proven correct in that I easily took this "curve" at 54 MPH with help from what feels like it could be "The Hand of God." Entering the corner "hot" (but maintaining, NOT accelerating) was a little unnerving at first, but when I reached the apex of the corner, I dialed in about an inch more lock and a like amount of throttle.

The rear end of the car was seemingly grabbed by a giant foam rubber hand and the car "carved" right through he corner as if something or some one had gripped the rear quarter panels low to the ground and simply pushed me through the corner, virtually drama free. Speed? Yes? A bit of a rush coming out of the apex of the curve? Oh hell yes!

Next up a left hand curve with a bit of a an opposite (from the expected and helpful) bank meaning the car was not helped at all by the highway engineer's decision to have the apex of the curve have a crown rather than a scallop. Once again, almost counter-intuitively I entered the curve hot, waited for the apex where I cut the wheel to the left (a bit) while simultaneously punching the gas "with feeling."

Again, the invisible hand pushed the car, as if it were on rails, through the horribly under-engineered road.

A couple of nice, virtually deserted straight-a-ways where the supercharged engine at full throttle thrilled, rounded out the first half of the "test."

Up next, my wife -- our idea was this: I drove the outbound route and she would drive the return route, retracing my steps (in the opposite direction). My left curves were her rights, and so on.

Once she got the hang of cutting the wheel just a bit more than seemed "natural" at the apex and punching the gas, she too was calling TV the hand of god.

I guess, other than sharing this with y'all, I would invite you to experience a powerful car with rear biased torque split, aggressive summer tires and a "sport differential." Someone once said, "nothing else even comes close."

I am "OK" with not having a car equipped with torque vectoring -- but, given a choice, I will never get another car (on purpose) without it. The Acura's SH-AWD is a great piece of tech; but, the issue is: It is installed on a car with a 90%/10% f/r torque split and the ability to shift a maximum of power to the rear of just 50%.

So while I admire and recommend only getting an Acura equipped with SH-AWD, if you're looking at the brand, I can attest that, good as it is, nothing even comes close to the implementation of TV in the S5 I drove this weekend.

Too bad I'm not in the market -- for an S4 thusly equipped would be sick.

Drive it like you live.

Mark, reporting from somewhere in Cincinnati -

I've long said that the Sport Rear Diff should be standard on all Quattro Audi's, especially S models like the S4. Whoever decided that making moon roofs standard was more important for about the same price as the Rear Diff option should be shot. How can anyone choose navigation or sun roof over the torque vectoring? I'm dumbfounded.

flightnurse

andres3 said:

markcincinnati said:

I've long said that the Sport Rear Diff should be standard on all Quattro Audi's, especially S models like the S4. Whoever decided that making moon roofs standard was more important for about the same price as the Rear Diff option should be shot. How can anyone choose navigation or sun roof over the torque vectoring? I'm dumbfounded.

The buying public that is who decided that...

markcincinnati

flight:

Virtually all of the decisions regarding these cars are ultimately made by the buyers -- not the shoppers, not the bloggers, not the professional reviewers. Some of the decisions are made by governmental bodies who do require certain features, mostly or usually for safety concerns.

On the other hand, MARKETING, should -- if you ax me -- should market several of these cars, particularly the "S" cars with the Sport Diff; and, I think sport diff should be an option on ALL of the other AWD versions.

The reason it is not, I'm guessing is to keep the base price as low as possible.

The loaner S4 I received the other day didn't have a backup camera -- which I thought was, at the very least, odd. It is in the pipeline of government mandate for the 2017 MY is it not? The High End Germans (and others) should probably be ahead of this in making the camera already standard.

One of my early Audis came with electronic stability program, I think back in 2000 -- it became a standard in 2012 as I recall. Same deal with ABS, the high zoot Germans had it long before the more pedestrian offerings, yes?

In any case, the statement that the customer makes the decision is one that I totally agree with.

Sunroofs must be more "desirable" even if they're rarely opened (like mine). I wouldn't miss a sunroof if it didn't come "standard." I'd take the sport diff in a heartbeat, instead.

flightnurse

markcincinnati said:

flight:

Virtually all of the decisions regarding these cars are ultimately made by the buyers -- not the shoppers, not the bloggers, not the professional reviewers. Some of the decisions are made by governmental bodies who do require certain features, mostly or usually for safety concerns.

On the other hand, MARKETING, should -- if you ax me -- should market several of these cars, particularly the "S" cars with the Sport Diff; and, I think sport diff should be an option on ALL of the other AWD versions.

The reason it is not, I'm guessing is to keep the base price as low as possible.

The loaner S4 I received the other day didn't have a backup camera -- which I thought was, at the very least, odd. It is in the pipeline of government mandate for the 2017 MY is it not? The High End Germans (and others) should probably be ahead of this in making the camera already standard.

One of my early Audis came with electronic stability program, I think back in 2000 -- it became a standard in 2012 as I recall. Same deal with ABS, the high zoot Germans had it long before the more pedestrian offerings, yes?

In any case, the statement that the customer makes the decision is one that I totally agree with.

Sunroofs must be more "desirable" even if they're rarely opened (like mine). I wouldn't miss a sunroof if it didn't come "standard." I'd take the sport diff in a heartbeat, instead.

Mark, many people on this forum have said this, regarding the Germans they will nickel and dime you on features that should standard, Bluetooth audio should be standard, it's not... Backup camera, Alarm systems..

But in the end the buying public dictates what comes standard...

stickguy

There are plenty if buyers that would never know they have one, or drive in a way it would make a difference. Heck, plenty probably can't tell ( or really care) what wheels are driving it. Catering to the small % of buyers that really appreciate performance is why the S models exist.

roadburner

BMW has always been one of the worst brands with respect to options and how they are "packaged.' I do have to give Munich kudos for offering the sunroof delete option on the M235i...

markcincinnati

If you delete the sunroof do you get a CREDIT?

I've seen some of the "delete" options, and while they allow it, they don't change the price.

I purchased an Audi 5000CS quattro some time ago (it had 15,000 miles on it). The window sticker was in the glove box -- the car had wool seats (with a delete leather seats, noted on the sticker). I liked the seats, even though I am not a fan of seats that cannot simply be wiped with a damp cloth -- but I bought the car previously owned, after all.

I assume wool seats must be the default in Europe, but this was not a gray market car -- it was a regular US spec 5000CS with pearl paint (optional) and delete leather seats (a no cost option).

Since sunroofs are only "standard" in some markets, I have to assume that the decision to include a sunroof in the US is the fact that we Americans want sunroofs and EXPECT them and perhaps would not like seeing a sunroof (which is a right, after all) with a line item with a charge on it on the window sticker.

I wonder if there is an economy of scale making the bundling of options for a particular market a way to both increase profits for the US (for instance) arm of the company and to somehow suggest that the content of the car is actually higher than competing models.

Friend of my wife just went test driving Audi and BMW. Configured two cars as close to identical as the web site configurators would allow; the BMW's MSRP rose more quickly than the Audi's, even though they seem to be comparable when "stripped" (which is due to the fact that the Audi has more content than the BMW in base form). Then the BMW surges past the Audi when the option boxes are checked off in an attempt to keep the cars as close as possible in terms of their equipment levels.

I don't know if anything was actually proven, but her friend ended up with a 2016 A6 3.0T Sline Prestige for about the same price as a 4-cylinder BMW 5 series with a couple fewer options. The BMW seemed to shoot up in price as the attempt to content it like the Prestige package moved forward.

But this may be an example that isn't typical -- maybe the BMW is comparable assuming you don't put ventilated seats, heads up display, sport package and LED headlights on it -- I find the configurators take a lot of work to pull together comparable equipment levels (and maybe that's the point.)

I tried doing this with a Porsche Macaan vs an Audi SQ5 -- the Porsche dealer said the differences in price for content were very small. My calculations came up with about a $15,000 difference. Maybe that is what Porsche figures is a small difference.

Hell, at these price points, price isn't really the main selling factor -- after all, if what we wanted was a lot of bang for our bucks, we'd all buy KIA's, yes?