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  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    edited April 2015
    Here is Bloomberg's review of Acura ILX. Utterly devastating. My favorite is comparison with Honda Civic with line "one has inflated sense of itself, the other does not".

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-10/the-acura-ilx-is-a-30-000-luxury-car-that-isn-t-really-a-luxury?cmpid=yhoo

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    dino001 said:

    Here is Bloomberg's review of Acura ILX. Utterly devastating. My favorite is comparison with Honda Civic with line "one has inflated sense of itself, the other does not".

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-10/the-acura-ilx-is-a-30-000-luxury-car-that-isn-t-really-a-luxury?cmpid=yhoo

    He really didn't like that car. Interesting. I have read reviews that found the car as a well regarded upgrade from the previous version of the ILX.

    But, I get what he's saying. The wife looked at the ILX and decided for the money, the Accord was the better deal, by a pretty large margin.

    Oh....and good luck finding that $30K CLA the reviewer mentioned. Add another $10K to that number and you're in business, but not $30K.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,341
    Hack job. I liked it. Well loaded. Quick. Handles and rides well. Sounds like badge snobbery.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    dino001 said:

    Here is Bloomberg's review of Acura ILX. Utterly devastating. My favorite is comparison with Honda Civic with line "one has inflated sense of itself, the other does not".

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-10/the-acura-ilx-is-a-30-000-luxury-car-that-isn-t-really-a-luxury?cmpid=yhoo

    To be honest, that is the kind of review I would expect from a "lifestyle" writer: http://www.forbes.com/sites/hannahelliott/
  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited April 2015
    Hannah Elliot is a woman I read her review on the ILX. She should of compared her basis to the LX Accord that sells for 20k Not a Civic. Check out her review on the New Audi S3. ( not a bad job ). But I would take some of her Reviews / comments with a grain of salt.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-13/the-2015-audi-s3-is-the-best-sport-sedan-for-the-money

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 5,181
    "Acura was a way to compete against Toyota’s Lexus marque."

    IIRC, Acura preceded Lexus/Infiniti by ~ 4 years. And, conventional wisdom at the time (read: The Europeans) scoffed at the idea that anyone would pay $20k for a Honda! I'm sure Acura's success further emboldened Toyota and Nissan to proceed with their plans to further humble the Germans...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited April 2015
    ". . .to further humble the Germans . . ." The word I honed in on was "further," which would assume they had been previously humbled.

    It would seem that everyone here appears to have an opinion that, to me, reads something like (speaking of the Germans): The way fill-in-the-blank" (usually filled in with BMW) cars were during the fill-in-the-blank (usually some year or range of years that is at least 5 years ago, often as much as 15) is better than they are today. The author of said opinion/perspective will usually attribute their reasons for stating the "fact" of better then than now, to be the current difficulty in getting today's version with a stick shift or the increase in luxury content at the expense of performance, the selection by the manufacturer of run flat tires or whatever other dislike is currently popular.

    Far as I can tell, however, the German auto makers Audi, BMW and Mercedes (and probably Porsche, but not as often mentioned) were not humbled THEN and therefore are highly unlikely to have been "further" humbled by Acura, Lexus and Infiniti.

    Current auto review magazine's still typically pick a European over an Asian, and more to the point, typically pick a German over a Japanese. When there is a "comparo" report between the Japanese ELLPS or LPS and the offering from Germany (in the same class), the German's usually finish ahead of their Japanese rival (the one glaring example to the contrary is when the Lexus IS bested the BMW 3, and that was over a year ago).

    Generally, the German examples rule the category -- far as I can tell if there is any humbling, it is the exception rather than the rule.

    I so wanted to love the Q50 Infiniti (at the time I was in a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD) and did end up ordering a IS 350 with the F-sport package when I thought I would be forced to "settle" for a Lexus to replace the Acura, thinking, at the time, an Audi will be too expensive to be considered, compared to the IS 350. I was mistaken -- an S4 was "within reach."

    The point or better said, question, is, when were the Germans in humble mode and when were they further humbled by Lexus and Infiniti, to quote laurasdada's previous post?

    Driving it like I live . . .
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    I don't know if they were better. I liked them more, for reasons you so eloquently stated. I would add the steering feedback as first and foremost reason. Then it will be followed by the usual laundry list, such as said RFTs, lack of manual transmission, or nicer sounding engine (pertains to lower end 3-series) and less expensive (which is true for all cars and brands). Now, that may not be "better", but I liked it more. Doesn't preclude me from buying it again for simple reason that others don't make what I like, either.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,341
    Well acura came out in 1985. Audi was pretty humbled back in those days. I'm still surprised that audi survived the dark era, never mind reinvented itself as a high end brand.

    And circa 1990 when the Lexus LS arrived, MB was not doing sport. Big tanks and diesels mostly (exception being the SL, a convertible tank!).

    To me, BMW is the only one that really evolved from the original ELLPS days, since the other euros weren't in it back then. To a large extent the 1st legend and Infiniti were it along with the 3 series.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    stickguy said:

    Hack job. I liked it. Well loaded. Quick. Handles and rides well. Sounds like badge snobbery.

    Maybe, but I although I can't speak to the ILX (though the interior pics did make things looks less than luxurious), I can speak to the TLX with an extremely similar drive train; which I've test driven twice now.

    I have to agree with her review for the most part though, and I'm a Honda fan. I think Acura is now overpriced, and/or underwhelming. The car feels slow, but maybe adequate, just not inspiring. The car handles nicely, but again, not inspiring. The interior is fine, but I remember preferring the TSX's interior. I much preferred the TL-SH-AWD models I test drove last year. For closer to $35K than $40K (sticker overpriced, but real deals were to be had), the TL SHAWD made a compelling case. For nearly the same money, the TLX does not IMHO.

    I would say the car does everything pretty well, but anytime you give the car a compliment, I feel you have to put a qualifier like "pretty or fairly" before the words "good and well". No significant glaring weaknesses, but no real strengths either. I probably should have insisted on test driving the 3.5 V6 the second time, but I can't get over that you get an even more flawed transmission than the already flawed but improved at least 8 speed in the TLX.

    I think I'd rather buy an Accord Sport model, and save/invest the money saved to buy a future true performance sedan.

    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    dino - I guess I should add, too, that I don't actually know that the Japanese LPS brands have previously been humbled, either -- but I think (my opinion) they have, or at least they should be since they so frequently are NOT the winner in comparos in the BIG, IMPORTANT car magazines.

    I saw MotorWeek on TV this week and the Lexus GS was tested (not compared), things went along nicely as the car was shown on the track and street -- and then WHAM! John Davis pretty much put the car in its place (which was to say, it was NOT at the top of the Premium car heap, based on comments about handling, braking, etc),

    Yet, "everyone" I know who has a Lexus loves them -- of course whenever I ask why, the reason, THE reason, THE #1 REASON, the ONLY reason I can ever get out of them, is either how reliable or durable they are.

    Odd, methinks, how I can't ever seem to elicit a comment about a Lexus, Infiniti or Acura that praises their performance, style, switchgear -- oh oh oh, I take it back, once, someone told me how good the sound system in his Acura is (and speaking as a previous Acura TL SH-AWD Advance owner, I agree -- Acura has the best sound systems for mere mortals -- the only one that is better is the hyper expensive B&O option Audi offers for $6,000+).

    Don't get me wrong, a sound system is very important in a car -- but, you know, when someone tells me about their 5 series or their new Mercedes E or C, they tell me about the performance, ergonomics, 8-speed or 7-speed transmission, engine, responsiveness, cornering, etc, etc, etc.

    My wife thinks that her Infiniti was great -- from a durability (and probably reliability) standpoint. But she ended up with an SQ5 (Audi) because "Infiniti's ain't got no soul." She was against my getting a 2014 IS 350 for the same reason -- told me, I'd be underwhelmed by it's appliance-like disposition.

    I do appreciate, too, that I've read, here, the comments -- positive comments -- about the recent EL and LPS Cadillac offerings. And, well, they are hardly known as durable cars -- and no one I know who has one claims they got it thinking it would be the new world champion of longevity. OK, so here I am at age 63 -- I'm thinking I'm still gonna outlive any car I get, so I might as well get one that comes with passion, performance and pulchritude.

    Got one more data point for you: when I used to have the Acura, I'd take it to the dealer for service and would talk to other customers about their reasons for being Acura owners. Now, get this -- the BEST answer I ever got was "because I got a good deal." Meanwhile, over at the quattro cafe (and the BMW store service area, too) the folks talk about how much fun their cars are to DRIVE.

    Imagine that.

    Oh, and, yes, I know, this proves nothing.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    To me Lexus has been traditionally perfect car for people who don't care about cars (don't get excited about them, don't want to know anything about how throttle or gears work, don't watch any motor sports, etc.), but need a car and want one that is going to be comfortable, well designed, high quality today and five years from now, reliable, low maintenance and yet tell everybody they have both money and taste. BTW, I remember one guy stating repeating couple of times low depreciation as a primary reason he got a Lexus. I have always bought a car for myself, not the next guy, but I understand his thinking - if all he wanted was to minimize the cost and maximize the content, Lexus was just perfect for him. Just like Toyota is perfect for the same kind of people with less money. BTW, this is probably 80% of the population, if not more.

    I'm not looking down on those people, not at all - they have their busy lives, they don't need or want to know anything about weight distribution, cornering ability. I'm sure they have other passions that I could not care less about.

    However, over time, Lexus noticed that they left that over 20% of those with means to buy their cars wouldn't even give them time of the day - so they change their product (a little) and advertising (a lot - most of their ads are about "F" lines even if they actually sell small fraction of those). BMW did the opposite - they have owned those 20% for decades - the 80% majority would stay away, unless the lease payment was right and even after then they would constantly complain about small back seat and "harsh" suspension, or road noise, tire wear, or all those things we know sporty cars do (including higher maintenance). So in order to grow, BMW changed their product (unlike Lexus, they changed it a lot). They don't really miss that 20%, because those guys still have nowhere else to go and all they can do is grumble. And judging from sales figures, BMW is now losing much sleep even if a few of them did go somewhere else.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    edited April 2015
    stickguy said:

    Well acura came out in 1985. Audi was pretty humbled back in those days. I'm still surprised that audi survived the dark era, never mind reinvented itself as a high end brand.

    And circa 1990 when the Lexus LS arrived, MB was not doing sport. Big tanks and diesels mostly (exception being the SL, a convertible tank!).

    To me, BMW is the only one that really evolved from the original ELLPS days, since the other euros weren't in it back then. To a large extent the 1st legend and Infiniti were it along with the 3 series.

    Whatever humbling happened to Audi it certainly was not at Acura's hand if that is what your comment suggests -- Audi was humbled because they were first maligned by a 60 Minutes story that made the preposterous claim that an Audi 5000's 5-cylinder engine could overpower its brakes (which it couldn't); then it was hobbled by its own hand because it was so ARROGANT it its response to the 60 Minutes piece (which Audi knew was false but didn't have the ability to see was the PERCEPTION the Minutes piece left the viewers with) that they said, American drivers are so ham-footed that they can't press the right pedal (or, the lie, that if you pressed both the accelerator and brake pedal of an Audi the engine was sooo powerful it would make the car lurch forward).

    So, yes, Audi was humbled [perhaps] -- but NOT by Acura, Audi was humbled by Audi. Their reaction to the fake news of the day was what nearly done 'em in.

    The Lexus LS may have -- in hindsight -- captured the buying public's eye for a "cheaper" and "similar" [to a Mercedes S, well, sorta] car -- today a top o' the line Lexus attracts shoppers for the reasons I noted, then, well, no one knew they were going to be so durable, but they were cheaper (but the Hyundai Equus is cheaper than an LS is today, too, though). Then, I don't recall that Lexus actually took too much out of Mercedes pockets. The only country Lexus was sold in was the US (OK, North America). Even today, a company like Audi sells 175,000 cars in the US (out of total sales of over 1.2M). So while we're important for the image (which is huge), we're not so much important in revenue -- and then, well, most folks couldn't even spell globalization.

    I would think the Germans and the Japanese alike are always looking at the market, their direct competition, their indirect competition and what is looming on the horizon that could be trouble.

    I assume they're all a bit concerned (too strong a word?) by the product coming out of Korea -- and even the American manufacturers are no longer to be ignored.

    So, my retort is pretty much that Audi, not Acura was the cause of the dark days (with an honorable mention at least to the inaccurate 60 Minutes story Unintended Acceleration) for that brand -- and far as I can tell Audi's behavior could hardly have been more opposite to humble if it tried even harder.

    Mercedes, even when they were somehow supposedly threatened by Lexus wasn't really put out much by the product, as much as they were put out by the hype -- and even so, the US (at that time) was still a pretty small peanut insofar as sales+image were concerned, compared with the rest of the planet's uptake of Mercs.

    And, while I pretty much agree about BMW's -- a 1980's era BMW was still a bit of a rarity and were known for being "breathtakingly expensive" to maintain and god help you if you needed to repair one or take one to a body shop.

    The folks I knew who knew or thought they knew about cars (remember I'm old enough to have been alive then) in the early '80's often would equate BMW's and Porsche's -- and some folks even had the gall (or ignorance) to tell me that BMW stood for British Motor Works.

    I'm still of the mind that if anyone is doing any humbling, it's the Germans who be the "humble -ers," not the "humble -ees."

    Check out the new Car and Driver comparo (spoiler alert, the "long in the tooth" S5 kicks butt and takes names AGAIN! -- wonder how the Lexus fares? Hmmm?)

    This needs to be updated (to include a Japanese stereotype and to relate it to cars):

    "Heaven is where the cooks are French, the police are British, the mechanics are German, the lovers are Italian and everything is organized by the Swiss.

    Hell is where the cooks are British, the police are German, the mechanics are French, the lovers are Swiss, and everything is organized by the Italians."

    Any takers?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928

    dino - I guess I should add, too, that I don't actually know that the Japanese LPS brands have previously been humbled, either -- but I think (my opinion) they have, or at least they should be since they so frequently are NOT the winner in comparos in the BIG, IMPORTANT car magazines.
    ............................
    Got one more data point for you: when I used to have the Acura, I'd take it to the dealer for service and would talk to other customers about their reasons for being Acura owners. Now, get this -- the BEST answer I ever got was "because I got a good deal." Meanwhile, over at the quattro cafe (and the BMW store service area, too) the folks talk about how much fun their cars are to DRIVE.

    Imagine that.

    Oh, and, yes, I know, this proves nothing.

    I think you've hit the nail on the head. If I would have spent somewhere between $10 and $15K less on a TL-SH-AWD from my S4, I would have done so to save the money, get a better sound system, and perhaps enjoy legendary Acura reliability hassle free low cost maintenance ownership.

    Ultimately I decided on the S4 because it looked better inside and out (style), drove faster, quicker, class leading transmission system, handled better/sharper/faster, the brakes felt better, the Quattro seemed superior to SH-AWD (less of a FWD with AWD on-demand type thing like Acura), and I could get it with contrasting Napa Leather interior (chose the Magma Red; beautiful). Also, I could choose Misano Red exterior whereas with Acura you have to settle with a purple looking red.

    Lastly, I know the S4 is very easily tune-able, as I'm now driving an S4 that is as fast as an RS4 at 395-to 405 HP with just a simple REVO flash software tune. Your power varies based on the quality of gas and conditions like temperature. Get 93 or 100 octane gas and you can easily get to 410-415 HP. I do feel the difference. It is as if the car is doing what it was always meant to do now, performing the way the engine can perform without restrictions, limiters, & regulations being in its way! Without making concessions to the EPA, emissions, nannies, fuel economy, and insurance company charge rates (I think this is why Audi under rates the power in its cars), the S4 is a BEAST. I think 400 HP is a new magical number. Of course, 300 HP would suffice if the car was 500+ lbs. less.

    Granted, if you don't have a heavy right foot, you can still keep the EPA happy with your gas mileage. I see no negative effects in daily driving. Just positive effects when you get into it!

    I'm going to stop typing and try to find a revenue patrol-free road zone right now! Have a great weekend everyone!.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    How about . . . I start . . .

    Heaven is:

    German cars
    Swiss watches
    French art
    Italian food
    British humor
    Japanese electronics
    American movies
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,565

    How about . . . I start . . .

    Heaven is:

    German cars
    Swiss watches
    French art
    Italian food
    British humor
    Japanese electronics
    American movies

    No women in heaven, huh? ;)

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  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 5,181
    Mark, et. al. When I used the words, "further humbled," my thinking was along the lines of the effect of the Japanese mfgs. moving upmarket and the perceived value propositions of the German marques to the general public. I believe, and certainly more so due to the original Lexus LS after Honda fired the first shot, that the Germans were a bit surprised by the reviews and acceptance of the fancy Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans.

    I'm a fan of the Euros, my first car memory is of Dad's Borgward and my Mom's Mercedes. My first car was a VW Scirocco. My last two cars have been Jags, likely fueled by memories of my Dad's friend's Jag E-Type convertible (and the fact that they are beautiful, fun and reliable cars!). But, I grew up during the era of fuel economy, hot hatches and the rapid ascent of Japanese cars. My father lusted after the BMW Bavaria, but friends that had them couldn't vouch for their reliability and he grew tired of the expensive repairs to the Mercedes and so they went Japanese (including a Datsun 260Z!). So, I believe that that competitive environment improved the breed. Well, except for GM, of course! ;)

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited April 2015
    Currently renting a brand spanking new Jetta from Avis. A fairly stripper model, not even a sunroof.

    The exterior is that loud red with a hint of orange that VW has had for years. It looks sharp in color but the styling is still very bland. The trunk is nicely carpeted and huge.

    The interior is a sea of hard black plastic with touches of fake chrome. The only soft surfaces in the interior are the seats, the carpet, and the steering wheel. All else is hard as a rock - dash, side panels, center console. When started the engine made a horrendous sound in early idle but seemed much smoother at higher speeds. The steering is tight with good feedback. The freeway ride is ok but nothing outstanding. Compared to previous generation Jettas it is bigger and more chintzy.

    But even though cloth, the seats are decently bolstered, not couchlike as in the standard seats on new Audis, or (apparently) BMWs. Go figure.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    How about . . . I start . . . Heaven is: German cars Swiss watches French art Italian food British humor Japanese electronics American movies
    Ha!
    well, put me down for Italian autos, Japanese food, and American women. I need nothing else. ;)

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The thing that ticks me off with the Audis at this point is that the best seats in the house are, for mere mortals (financially) in the S4 with the upgrade option, mine in red! To next experience such chairs, you skip over the A6 and go straight to the S6 -- which, let's get real, usually is tickling the underbelly of $80,000.

    The S6, by some crazy metrics, is actually a bargain compared to the other guys, but jeeeeze, what if I simply wanted a very nice A6 with the new supercharged V6 engine and SLINE, not "S"?

    Fughettaaboutdit.

    In my case, I love the SIZE of the A4/S4 and am anticipating a nicer package job in the B9 S4 -- so assuming the seats are still offered in that model, I need not coax the missus into the "logic" of an S6.

    BTW, there is NO logic in an S6, it is pure emotion at that point -- the thing is wicked quick, super fast and beyond sublime. I haven't driven a latter day S8 yet, but I just can't imagine ever needing one of those.

    The S6 is irrational -- which is why we all want one (if we have driven one). But a new gen S4 may be a better performer, more fun and quicker through the twisties (and I am NOT speaking about ever tracking any of these). The fact that a new S4 "nicely equipped" can be had for under $60K is just a bonus.

    My wife and I are "60" years old -- we have a Sheltie and we each have a job. We have no kids at home (other than the dog) and life is pretty much low stress, so we have time to indulge one of our hobbies, test driving cars. Having said that, I urge you to go to an Audi dealer and just sit in an S4 (or an S6) and enjoy the seats. I don't mean to persuade you to the Audi brand as much as I am trying to get us all on a level conversation field -- and that is this: good seats are the enemy of great seats. You may think your "fill-in-th-blank" prospective ELLPS or LPS car has good seats -- and it may be thus. You may actually find better seats than Audi deems fit to put in its S cars -- and if you do, for god's sake please share. And, I'm already pretty much a fan of Volvo seats and Porsche seats, so those don't need to be discussed.

    My point is, if you don't have to find a sitter or arrange your schedules to spend your weekends driving cars, take a detour to the showroom noted and try the S4's seats out.

    Were I able to check a box and make these seats available across the ELLPS and LPS universe, I would. Who knows, were seats this good available from several manufacturers, perhaps I could see myself driving another brand.

    Of course, if you want, you could even test drive the car to see how great seats make driving all that much more fun.

    Remember good seats are the enemy of great seats.

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120

    dino - I guess I should add, too, that I don't actually know that the Japanese LPS brands have previously been humbled, either -- but I think (my opinion) they have, or at least they should be since they so frequently are NOT the winner in comparos in the BIG, IMPORTANT car magazines.

    I saw MotorWeek on TV this week and the Lexus GS was tested (not compared), things went along nicely as the car was shown on the track and street -- and then WHAM! John Davis pretty much put the car in its place (which was to say, it was NOT at the top of the Premium car heap, based on comments about handling, braking, etc),

    Yet, "everyone" I know who has a Lexus loves them -- of course whenever I ask why, the reason, THE reason, THE #1 REASON, the ONLY reason I can ever get out of them, is either how reliable or durable they are.

    Odd, methinks, how I can't ever seem to elicit a comment about a Lexus, Infiniti or Acura that praises their performance, style, switchgear -- oh oh oh, I take it back, once, someone told me how good the sound system in his Acura is (and speaking as a previous Acura TL SH-AWD Advance owner, I agree -- Acura has the best sound systems for mere mortals -- the only one that is better is the hyper expensive B&O option Audi offers for $6,000+).

    Don't get me wrong, a sound system is very important in a car -- but, you know, when someone tells me about their 5 series or their new Mercedes E or C, they tell me about the performance, ergonomics, 8-speed or 7-speed transmission, engine, responsiveness, cornering, etc, etc, etc.

    My wife thinks that her Infiniti was great -- from a durability (and probably reliability) standpoint. But she ended up with an SQ5 (Audi) because "Infiniti's ain't got no soul." She was against my getting a 2014 IS 350 for the same reason -- told me, I'd be underwhelmed by it's appliance-like disposition.

    I do appreciate, too, that I've read, here, the comments -- positive comments -- about the recent EL and LPS Cadillac offerings. And, well, they are hardly known as durable cars -- and no one I know who has one claims they got it thinking it would be the new world champion of longevity. OK, so here I am at age 63 -- I'm thinking I'm still gonna outlive any car I get, so I might as well get one that comes with passion, performance and pulchritude.

    Got one more data point for you: when I used to have the Acura, I'd take it to the dealer for service and would talk to other customers about their reasons for being Acura owners. Now, get this -- the BEST answer I ever got was "because I got a good deal." Meanwhile, over at the quattro cafe (and the BMW store service area, too) the folks talk about how much fun their cars are to DRIVE.

    Imagine that.

    Oh, and, yes, I know, this proves nothing.

    Mark...if I wasn't known for flipping cars every 2-3 years, I don't know that the CTS would have made it to my garage.

    That said, the last GM product I owned was a Chevy Tahoe, which was well put together, uber reliable, and aside from fuel efficiency (which was at best, dismal) cheap to own and operate. But now, Tahoes are a $65-$75K step down from $80K Escalades, So, not sure I can say they're in any way shape or form, economical.

    So, if I keep my CTS long enough, perhaps I can really see if GM and Cadillac have changed.

    All that said, I mentioned a few months ago that I had tested an S3. Suspension was way too stuff for my tastes (a whole other level stiffer than my previous S4). Ran into one of the guys who originally helped me at the Audi dealership on the east side of town. He recognized me immediately (probably because of all the time spent at his dealership trying to get Audi to fix my car). It took me awhile to place him, but I knew him.

    Kind of funny because I think at the time he was the Audi sales manager. He said he's doing something with one of the other dealerships in the dealer group. He was the ONLY one who at least tried to get Audi to swap me out of the troublesome S4, which they refused, preferringto irritate me even more and actually having to pay me to buy the car back. Go figure.

    Anyway, he said he was starting at the dealer group's Porsche store next week. He wasnted to know what I was driving (didn't denegrate his Caddy competition saying he thought the CTS was a good looking car). Last day at Audi is today. Starts at Porsche on Monday.

    I told him of my test drive of the S3 and that I found it way too stiff. He said he hears that a lot and blamed to high perforamnce summer tires. He said the dealership routinely swaps out the summer tires for high performance all weather tires, which makes a big difference on the ride.

    He did have pics on his phone of a new S3 they have in stock that was gorgeous.....white metallic with black and grey leather interior. He said they just put all weather shoes on it and I should stop by for a test drive. He said he wanted to leave the Audi store on a bang.

    Told him I was still stinging from my last go round with Audi. He didn't minimize my feelings stating he totally understood. But, he also said that was highly unusual.

    Not in the market, but pretty day...might go for a drive.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    So, i actually gave the S3 another test drive. I usually don't go to any dealerships on a Saturday given they're busy and I'm not in the market. But, with the invite, I did.

    Dealership had a couple of people in it, but not busy by any stretch.

    Sales Manager I spoke to was there. He came over, shook my hand. Told me he was working a deal but got the keys for the S3 and told me to take it for a spin. He asked if I wanted his used car manager to look at my CTS....NO!!!!!!!!!

    Onward...pretty car in the metallic white Still a bit cramped but felt a bit aierier than the IS350 I tests drove awhile ago. Ride is much better with the all seasons. Probably give up a little at the edges of handling, but the all season certainly would make the car more liveable on a day-to-day basis.

    Seats are good, but not as good as the TL's or the CTS's. Not off by much, though. They were actually better looking than the ones I had in my previous S4. But, my S4 seats didn't have soft leather inserts, either.

    Faster than my CTS by a good meadure, although the motor is still a 2.0 Turbo with more HP but less torque. Weight (less on the S3), gearing and the DSG trans are what I attribute that, too. But, the CTS is roomier. In truth, it felt about as fast as my S4.

    Nice interior, as expected. Much less in the way of controls, especially on the console vs my S4. Not sure one is better than the other, just different. This one had the handwriting recognition. In my brief time with it, it was hit and miss. LCD Pollping up out of the dash is way cooler than the tacked on screen with Benz or BMW. I'm used to my CTS's interface and have mastered it. I have familiarity with the Audi MMI. Not much has changed from what I remember.

    Handled well, rear danced a tad over some bumps, but it wasn't too bad. Never felt that in my S4, TL nor my CTS. LIke the CTS, lots of torque low. I like that. Not much is going to blow by you in the S3.

    Steering was direct. I liked the steering wheel a lot, but I liked the one in the S4 a lot, too.

    B&O stereo still trails the ELS in the TL and the (believe it or not) uplevel Bose in the CTS.

    Stickered for nearly $49K. After a nice 30 minute run, I went back to the dealership, with only one customer taking delivery of an A6. SM asked how I liked it. I told him that for the money, I'd choose it over a 335i or C300. First, that kind of sticker will barely touch either of those cars. And, the S3 will outperform both.

    He said he'd entice me by offering 5% off MSRP. Not in the market, and he knew I had an aversion to Audi.

    But, if I still liked Audi, and I was in the market, that would be a helluva car for the money.

    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,491
    @graphicguy - nice write up. I sat in an S3 at the ny auto show last week and definitely liked it a lot. Just those seats & steering wheel (same with the VW Golf R) alone was enough for me to stroke my chin and start thinking... I also like the fact that one can go light on the options & have a car that stickers in the low - mid $40K range. I also like that the screen pops in and out. I can't stand the "iPad glued to the dashboard look." I'd also hate to think what that would cost to replace once the car is out of warranty;)

    Kudos to your dealership for recognizing the problem with the car's ride & switching out the tires. What are the OEM tires anyway?

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Personal preference to be sure: the current Audi (and others) interior theme uses a pop-up screen that comes out of the dash and goes vertical when the car is started. The screen contains information I would consider to be desired at all times, so the screen is always up.

    Years ago, Pioneer offered an after-market head unit that had a similar pop-up screen. My 2005, 2009 and 2014 Audis all have the screens integrated into a sweeping clean looking dash -- no clutter, no pop up screen that looks like something from a SEMA show.

    In short, those pop-up screens look, to me, to be aftermarket, not well integrated and, indeed, somewhat fragile.

    They are ALMOST a deal breaker. The prev gen Cadillac CTS (2012 for instance) had a much better pop-up in terms of integration.

    My prediction, the pop up screens are going to go away (at least in Audis) within a year or two. Probably just the time I'll be back in the market, hoping that there is a new B9 S4.

    Dealer noted to me yesterday: "The A6 now has the S4 engine; and the S3 has equal to or better than acceleration numbers than the S4. . ." "Audi will not let this stand, if history is any guide -- the new S4 will bump both HP and Torque to improve performance over the S3 and to show better numbers vs the A6."

    Stay tuned.

    The S3 has a ride that, to me, takes firm into the realm of harsh.

    Of course one man's harsh is another man's firm -- perhaps that's what Audi Drive Select can address.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    edited April 2015
    Bradd...you know, I should have looked at the brand and model of tires, but didn't. Sorry!

    Mark....the tires made a significant difference in ride. I don't think it had the torque vectoring either. It didn't rotate as well as my car, but ithat certainly shouldn't affect ride.

    I should have played with Drive Select more, but didn't. As you say could/should make a difference in the ride, but don't know.

    You're going to spend close to $60K to get that equipment level and performance out of a 335i. Not sure about what a C/CLA would cost to get to that level of performance.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,325

    Bradd...you know, I should have looked at the brand and model of tires, but didn't. Sorry!

    Mark....the tires made a significant difference in ride. I don't think it had the torque vectoring either. It didn't rotate as well as my car, but ithat certainly shouldn't affect ride.

    I should have played with Drive Select more, but didn't. As you say could/should make a difference in the ride, but don't know.

    You're going to spend close to $60K to get that equipment level and performance out of a 335i. Not sure about what a C/CLA would cost to get to that level of performance.

    Just recently talked to a long time BMW enthusiast; he has always owned the latest and greatest M3 or M5- and even crewed on a BMW LSR attempt. He told me that he now drives a CTS Vsport. I asked him why and his answer was:
    "The Ultimate Driving Machine has left the building."

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,618
    So I guess it's not just me.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    edited April 2015


    "The Ultimate Driving Machine has left the building."

    That's a devastating statement from somebody who had been a fan and have spent high tens of thousands this often. My thinking is BMW doesn't feel the pinch now, because for one guy they lost, they gained couple of other customers who bought the nameplate and image, had no concept whatsoever what actual car sportiness really meant. The question is whether that sales surge is something permanent to enjoy, or temporary. One big value of enthusiasts is they provide free and most effective marketing. Many of those buying their cars today do so based on reputation built in the past, by guys like your buddy. It's hard to estimate how much that is worth, as some other people may also be turned off as well by the same enthusiast, perceiving them as juvenile snobs. It's clear that BMW has definitely lost the "ultimate" side for the sake of appeal to wider audience. We should see the long-term results of the move in ten-twenty years. As I recall, several other brands tried to pull that off and few succeeded.

    BTW, I recall a car magazine review (don't remember which one) shortly after BMW and ATS came out. It was the 328 vs 2.0T. Reading it was almost Alice in Wonderland experience - they gave ATS higher score in most "enthusiast" related categories, from steering, to road feel, to some standard performance tests. Yet, 328 was still a "overall winner" and they really didn't explain why. My thought was they simply "grandfathered" it into top position and knocked out ATS on some creature comfort items (like that touch screen interface, they said was a four-letter word). In other words, ATS was an ultimate driving machine of the two, but 328 was better to own at the time - which I find plausible, but it was an "enthusiast" test.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    dino001 said:


    "The Ultimate Driving Machine has left the building."

    That's a devastating statement from somebody who had been a fan and have spent high tens of thousands this often. My thinking is BMW doesn't feel the pinch now, because for one guy they lost, they gained five other customers who bought the nameplate and image, had no concept whatsoever what actual car sportiness really meant. The question is whether that sales surge is something permanent to enjoy, or temporary. One big value of enthusiasts is they provide free and most effective marketing. It's hard to estimate how much it's worth, as they can also turn off part of the audience as well, some people may not want to associate themselves with what they may perceive as a juvenile snob subculture. It's clear that BMW has definitely lost the "ultimate" side of it and went on compromise. We should see the long-term results of the move in ten-twenty years.

    BTW, I recall a car magazine review (don't remember which one) shortly after BMW and ATS came out. It was the 328 vs 2.0T. Reading it was almost Alice in Wonderland experience - they gave ATS higher score in most "enthusiast" related categories, from steering, to road feel, to some standard performance tests. Yet, 328 was still a "overall winner" and they really didn't explain why. My thought was they simply "grandfathered" it into top position and knocked out ATS on some creature comfort items (like that touch screen interface, they said was a four-letter word). In other words, ATS was an ultimate driving machine of the two, but 328 was better to own at the time - which I find plausible, but it was an "enthusiast" test.

    I'm guessing that BMW's monthly check was bumped up a bit.

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    edited April 2015
    Mark....personally, I think Cadillac has done a great job of integrating the media/GPS/info screen into the dash. No pop ups. Looks like it belongs there.

    RB...While I never feel I need more power in my CTS, I would love to get my hands on a CTS-V, if only for a day.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    graphicguy -
    I test drove 2 S3s.
    Some of my impressions mirror yours.
    - Ray
    Not currently driving an ELLPS ...
    2022 X3 M40i
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    Ray....would love to hear your thoughts. BTW....how's the Charger doing? Every time I see one on the road, I think of yours.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    I like the V8 Charger a lot, thanks. No issues at almost 4,000 miles.

    There is certainly much to like about the S3, for me.
    However, the price is quite high when well equipped,
    to me \ from my point of view.

    For example:
    Although the motor is certainly a very good 4 cylinder, it is still a 4 cylinder – and does not really make the sort of sounds I associate with the price point. Ultimate acceleration is certainly acceptable, but I prefer more immediate torque delivery from low RPM. It does pull well, once RPM & boost climb. The DCT & final drive gearing requires much, MUCH higher RPM in top gear at cruising speeds than I prefer.

    The interior rear view mirror is absurdly small.

    The sunroof has only a mesh cover \ sunshade – not a solid one. Here in HotLanta, that is really not a good idea. . .

    Although handling inspired confidence, I agree regarding the ride quality. Part of that may also be the S3’s relatively short wheelbase.

    The interior materials seemed appropriately high quality, and the seats were comfortable and supportive. With full leather seating, I do appreciate the fact that cooling is available for those seats in the Charger – and it works really well!

    I liked the fact that the S3’s center armrest adjusts up\down & fore\aft – a nice touch. I do prefer the nav screen being in the dash, instead of popping up above it.

    Clearly, many of these are just a reflection of my own personal preferences.
    That’s all I recall – last drove one in December.

    - Ray
    Quite happy with my current choice . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,491
    dino001 said:


    "The Ultimate Driving Machine has left the building."

    That's a devastating statement from somebody who had been a fan and have spent high tens of thousands this often. My thinking is BMW doesn't feel the pinch now, because for one guy they lost, they gained couple of other customers who bought the nameplate and image, had no concept whatsoever what actual car sportiness really meant. The question is whether that sales surge is something permanent to enjoy, or temporary. One big value of enthusiasts is they provide free and most effective marketing. Many of those buying their cars today do so based on reputation built in the past, by guys like your buddy. It's hard to estimate how much that is worth, as some other people may also be turned off as well by the same enthusiast, perceiving them as juvenile snobs. It's clear that BMW has definitely lost the "ultimate" side for the sake of appeal to wider audience. We should see the long-term results of the move in ten-twenty years. As I recall, several other brands tried to pull that off and few succeeded.

    BTW, I recall a car magazine review (don't remember which one) shortly after BMW and ATS came out. It was the 328 vs 2.0T. Reading it was almost Alice in Wonderland experience - they gave ATS higher score in most "enthusiast" related categories, from steering, to road feel, to some standard performance tests. Yet, 328 was still a "overall winner" and they really didn't explain why. My thought was they simply "grandfathered" it into top position and knocked out ATS on some creature comfort items (like that touch screen interface, they said was a four-letter word). In other words, ATS was an ultimate driving machine of the two, but 328 was better to own at the time - which I find plausible, but it was an "enthusiast" test.

    Check the number and placement of BMW ads in that magazine & you'll find your answer.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    Well to be fair the ATS is a very slow seller, so the buying public is still hooked on BMW euphoria apparently. An ATS stays 138 days in dealer inventory.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I love the way that many people literally accuse these mags of accepting bribes to slant reviews and then turn around and use these same mags as sources.  Count the ads???  If you make the accusation why don't you count the ads and prove your point.  I'm not naive but I tire of the off the cuff indictments without ever citing any actual proof.  The mags might not always be right but "monthly checked was bumped"?  Please.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191


    Well to be fair the ATS is a very slow seller, so the buying public is still hooked on BMW euphoria apparently. An ATS stays 138 days in dealer inventory.

    I read the same thing this weekend. Quite surprising, even for me - and I'm not a GM fan by any stretch of imagination. Another proof it takes so much more than just make a good product once. You have to do it again and again - and again. I guess if it took them four decades to destroy the company, it may take them twice as long to rebuild it - and only if the product quality remains up.

    I wonder what kind of deals are out there. Or perhaps, GM reduced the incentives in some major way and buyers, used to them, refused to buy at near the list price. This happens sometimes. Midspring inventory glut is a bad sign - too far away for the "all new" model with a new rear spoiler and wheel package, all that metal eating the dealers' financing. Also, GM used to be notorious for overproducing and the doing fire sales. Old habits die hard? I really wonder why is it so bad for a product that ain't that bad at all. Perhaps it all comes down to price.

    GM and Cadillac have chicken and egg problem, for sure. They want to be considered equal to the Germans, so they list price their cars accordingly. But because that's not the reality for now (at least in minds of the public), they have to concede on incentives - which perpetuates the situation. They could reduce the production, but the have to sell certain minimum volume to stay in business. It's a tough business, for sure. I think they need to overhaul their thinking in terms of not just product, but sales expectations, production, relationships with dealers, etc and model it more like those German guys. For example, BMW has quotas and allotments, but it's dealers, not the region, who decides on actual configurations within those allotments. There are (or at least used to be, when I got mine) reserved features (like some colors), which require a real customer order (in other words, those are special order only). I heard it's common for purchasing managers to fake customers to get those on their lot. I wonder if Cadillac dealers have similar system, or do they have to take whatever Detroit guys send them (I heard that was the case for lower-tier brands).

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    edited April 2015
    m6user said:

    I love the way that many people literally accuse these mags of accepting bribes to slant reviews and then turn around and use these same mags as sources.  Count the ads???  If you make the accusation why don't you count the ads and prove your point.  I'm not naive but I tire of the off the cuff indictments without ever citing any actual proof.  The mags might not always be right but "monthly checked was bumped"?  Please.

    I'm with you - it's really too easy to throw such an accusation, especially on a board like this. I wonder, if Joe Smith, a poster would say such a thing so quickly and loosely, under their name on camera on national television, so GM and C/D lawyers know where to send a complaint. If so, what would be a length of a legal disclaimer before or after such statement followed of course by another one from the station itself.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    I just looked at a random ATS incentive. They have 750 loyalty, but 1500 conquest cash. Way to go - tell your current customers they aren't as valuable, that you like these BMW owners more.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805


    Well to be fair the ATS is a very slow seller, so the buying public is still hooked on BMW euphoria apparently. An ATS stays 138 days in dealer inventory.

    That's more a sign of over production that slow sales. Unfortunately, there often isn't any correlation.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited April 2015
    m6user said:

    I love the way that many people literally accuse these mags of accepting bribes to slant reviews and then turn around and use these same mags as sources.  Count the ads???  If you make the accusation why don't you count the ads and prove your point.  I'm not naive but I tire of the off the cuff indictments without ever citing any actual proof.  The mags might not always be right but "monthly checked was bumped"?  Please.


  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Cute.  After the fact.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,325
    In their May issue Car and Driver called the current 5 Series "numb and unsporting."
    Maybe the check from Munich bounced... :p

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    In Cadillac's case, perception IS NOT reality. It's going to take some time to shake the grat Uncle image. That said, the one enticement that got me to wtite a check was my car's low $40s selling price.

    I'll put my CTS up against a $60K+ E series or 5 series any day....and be glad I bought the Caddy.

    That said....it doesn't ride or drive ANYTHING resembling the Caddy of yesteryear. Their long time customers are long gone. Those folks were chased out of the Cadillac showroom and told not to leave their forwarding adress.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    2022 X3 M40i
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    rayainsw said:
    How timely of Edmunds to post this. Can't really take issue with any of it.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    I mentioned the RPM at cruising speeds in the S3.
    The Edmunds test specs show RPM at 70 = 2500.
    As one other data point, my Charger would be traveling
    at approx. 120 MPH at 2500 RPM in 8th gear.
    - Ray
    Just sayin' .....
    2022 X3 M40i
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,565
    rayainsw said:

    I mentioned the RPM at cruising speeds in the S3.
    The Edmunds test specs show RPM at 70 = 2500.
    As one other data point, my Charger would be traveling
    at approx. 120 MPH at 2500 RPM in 8th gear.
    - Ray
    Just sayin' .....

    Are you sure? That doesn't seem possible, though slushboxes do some weird stuff..

    Edmunds Price Checker
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  • billyperks4billyperks4 Member Posts: 57
    "I'll put my CTS up against a $60K+ E series or 5 series any day....and be glad I bought the Caddy."

    In all honesty Graph, I like you as a poster here (a few others too) on Edmunds and your diplomatic ways of saying things but I disagree with the CTS been in the same league as a F10- maybe the non sport version.

    I guess I drank the kool aid now that I own a F10 but with all partiality aside the N55 engine is a blast to drive.
    Knock on wood- I do not regret trading in the TL (gone but not forgotten), these cars are worlds apart.

    I have to say this is an attention getter car-maybe its the Zaino polish that's drawing the attention.:)

    Graphite Gray
    Oyster/Black Interior
    35% Tint
    M5 Grill
    Sport


    I thinking of staggering the car for the summer- 275 Rear and 245 Front (Conti Extreme).
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    I have verified:
    TOP-GEAR REVS @ 60 MPH 1,250 rpm
    = roughly @ 65 1,350
    @ 70 1,450
    @ 75 1,550
    @ 80 1,650
    And calculated:
    @ 120 2,500
    2022 X3 M40i
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