Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

jimbres

Shipo's point is that with the right tires - dedicated winter tires - one can safely drive an RWD car on snow-covered roads. Did you switch to dedicated winter tires, or were you using all-season tires when you tried to drive in RWD mode in snowy conditions?

If the latter, then you really weren't addressing Shipo's point.

Karen_S

A reporter is hoping to talk with a new Mercedes C-Class owner, as well as anyone who recently bought a new Mercedes after having owned Lexus models in the past. Thanks for sending your contact information to pr@edmunds.com no later than Tuesday, October 12, 2010.

smarty666

I didn't realize he was referring to winter tires so that is my bad. If that is what he was making then maybe with really excellent quality winter tires you could get away with just RWD.

You are right, I had all season tires on the vehicle since I don't have the extra money lying around to go buy a second set of tires just for winter driving. I can't see spending several hundred dollars for tires you only would use on occasion 2-3 months out of the year. Just my personal preference.

fedlawman

"The TSX does not offer a manual and you don't see its sales tanking."

The TSX is available with a 6-speed MT - one of the best on the market.

fedlawman

"I can't see spending several hundred dollars for tires you only would use on occasion 2-3 months out of the year."

Spending several thousand dollars on AWD that you only use on occasion (and hurts performance the other 9-10 months) is a much better idea... :confuse:

sweendogy

tsx does come in manual--and has since they started making the car..and has pretty sweet throws. On TSX sales not tanking, i would like to see the numbers.

The reason infinti offers a manual is to compete with the BMW 3 but- i guess research shows that the lower 328 sells most cars as autos which for me is a shame. I need a g37x 6 speed.

and on the diamler partnership I agree I hope they keep the nissan 3.7 (or do they go to 4.0) - it might be loud and offers less mpgs but its a pure beast

shipo

You can't afford a set of winter tires but you can afford to buy AWD? Uhhh, what did I miss?

FWIW, the winter tires paid for themselves, and then some. Consider the following:
- I had the 530i for three winters before I turned it in at lease end.
- The winter wheel/tire set cost me $1,005.
- At lease end my factory tires all had at least 1mm more tread depth than BMW Finance's minimum, and as such I didn't need to buy a new set of summer performance tires; cost (then): ~$900 installed.
- After the 5er was gone I sold the winter wheel/tire set for $500.

Long story short, not only did I not pay a fifteen hundred to twenty-five hundred dollar up charge for AWD, I made $395 by spending the $1,005 on the winter wheel/tire set. Kinda like found money.

edwardsf

Hmm, what is this "agree" thingy? Well, okay, I will run with it.

Regarding ground clearance, I have the same issue with getting in and out. My A4 avec sport package was lower to the ground than my 3 series (sans sport package) and the Audi's seats were just a smidgen lower. This meant I used my back much more getting out of the Audi than I do now with the Bimmer. So make sure you try them all in various packages.

BTW, the Bimmer non sport seemed to be similar in cornering to the A4 sport. Of course, the Quattro sticks better due to AWD but the Bimmer's steering is just sublime. I truly think the Audi is the balance between the Bimmer and the Mercedes.

I also felt that the Infiinty drove heavier than all three German cars. The G almost reminded me of an American muscle car. NB, I only drove used (2007-8) models. But since cars don't seem to get lighter, I think the Germans are probably more nimble feeling than the Infinity.

Regarding my other infirmity, I have a hearing loss and carefully scrutinized for road noise. The Germans win again, especially the C300 and the 3 series. The new A4 was definitely my favorite car but it really was had much more road noise than the the others. Also, the Lexus were pretty quiet.

That said, I like almost all these cars on the list on the right. The only exceptions are the Caddy, which just seems gauche and the cramped, slow IS250. They all have their strengths and cars are really just better now.

sweendogy

edwards lets play a game, guess the "german"

car and driver review of 3 cars:

1)
Highs: Well sculpted inside and out, a feeling of flingability, the interior’s “ash almond beige” wood accents.

Lows: Road noise, wind noise, engine noise that lacks the manners expected at nearly $$$$$ large.

The Verdict: Very Rico, not very Suave.

2)
Highs: Seriously fast, seriously groovy in the turns, serious seats well matched to the serious g capability of the chassis.

Lows: V-6 is a little rough, the clutch takeup is abrupt and stiff besides, tight on toe space in back.

The Verdict: Muscular and poised, and low-profile about it; a machine for you, not your audience.

3) Highs: Hey-lookit-me visuals, plush leather lining, comfy in back (for two), hushed at high speeds.

Lows: The steering’s zone of indifference on-center, flinty ride over small bumps, too many buttons.
.
The Verdict: All the right stuff but can’t make conversation.

guess the german?

jimbres

I can't see spending several hundred dollars for tires you only would use on occasion 2-3 months out of the year. Just my personal preference.

My guess is that you're a young guy. All-season radial tires didn't become widely available until the mid to late 1970s. Before that, just about everyone who lived in the snow belt switched tires - from regular to snows, as they were called then - at the beginning of winter & then switched back to regular tires at the beginning of spring. Keep in mind that almost everyone drove RWD cars in those days. FWD didn't become widely available until the 70s, & AWD was available only on trucks until the 90s.

I remember that Dad always made the switch to snow tires on the Friday after Thanksgiving.

Something else to remember is that your regular tires will last that much longer if you're running with winter tires during the cold weather months. So the total ownership cost is less than you think.

Given that tires are the only part of your car that actually touches the road, do you really want to cheap out on them? Think about it. If you can't afford top quality rubber for your car, you might be better off riding the bus.

smarty666

sure! winter tires are not exactly known for smooth ride and low noise level so why would I want to deal with that from Dec-Mar! I'll take the smoother/more quiet ride all season tires offer

smarty666

Research by many companies has shown that the 6spd does not sell well on many cars. That is the reason Nissan stopped offering it on the Maxima. There was not enough demand for it and they were losing money no the manual models. You can get a manual on the G37 just like on the TL now so you have options if you want manual they are just much more limited then if you wanted automatic.

I said TSX sales have been pretty good so I don't know why you want numbers on why its tanking :confuse:

I want them to keep the VQ engines as well b/c I agree they are a performance beast, it is m hope Diamler and Mercedes will be able to just help Nissan quiet them down a bit at idle, etc so they are more refined sounding.

smarty666

Well, despite not getting winter tires, I have always tried to get some of the best all season tires for road grip, handling, etc to compensate and most have done pretty well. Its not that big of a deal for me b/c I will not drive on the road with more than a few inches of snow. Its just nice to have the AWD so that I don't get stuck at work or anywhere if I'm not home when a winter storm or blizzard starts.

shipo

"sure! winter tires are not exactly known for smooth ride and low noise level so why would I want to deal with that from Dec-Mar! I'll take the smoother/more quiet ride all season tires offer "

Bzzzt! I'm sorry, that is incorrect! I've driven cars with a dozen different winter tires over the last few years, and to a one, the tires were easily as quiet as the rubber used on the car for the other three seasons; that and in most cases they rode smoother! "Smoother?" you ask. Yes, smoother. Why? Because typically when one buys a winter wheel/tire set, they "minus one" on the size (my 530i is a good example; the summer tires were 235/45 R17s while the winter tires were 225/55 R16s), and the taller sidewall of the winter tires afforded a cushier ride.

nyccarguy

Bingo! Right on the money as usual Shipo. My winter wheels & tires are minus one on my Prelude (Summer size 205/50 R16, winter size 195/60 R15). In 8 & a half years, I've never been stuck in my Prelude once. That includes getting buried overnight while parked on the street in a snowstorm by the NYC Department of Sanitation, living in Westchester County (NYC suburb) that is anything but flat. Not once being able to NOT make it to work (not an option, my Dad is the boss & my name's on the door) due to inclement weather. People look at me like I have 4 heads and 5 feet when I tell them I switch to snow tires in the winter.

shipo

"People look at me like I have 4 heads and 5 feet when I tell them I switch to snow tires in the winter."

Up here in New Hamster the only folks I give that look to are the ones that are still driving their winter tires in July. :P

smarty666

I don't know why you guys are making a big deal about this winter tire BS! Did you ever think maybe some people have special situations that would preclude them from doing so?

Not only do I not want to spend the money on a second set a tires I only use a few months out of the year, I've had 3 back surgeries and major back problems and would break my a#$ trying to lug tires in and out of car to go have them put on the car twice a year and lug them down stairs for storage the rest of the year. I spent enough money on tires and back surgeries that I don't need to go and screw up my back just to get winter tires put on my car.

Its much easier just to get AWD and it works fine for me and a lot of other people so live with it.

Plus, I can't speak for other northern area of the country but I know that all the Infiniti dealers and BMW dealers around where I live only have AWD versions on their lots. The only way you can get RWD only is by special ordering one. Once in a while you might get lucky and see a RWD only on the lot but usually the service departments snatch them up as service loaners.

jimbres

Steady there, big guy. We're just trying to educate you. No need to get excited.

shipo

"The only way you can get RWD only is by special ordering one."

So? Since I prefer to do European Delivery (and save thousands of dollars in the process), I have to order anyway. Thinking about this further, since, ummm, 1979 we've ordered 8 of our 13 cars (including both of our RWD BMWs, one ED, one not).

mz6greyghost

Being from Upstate NY, I can mostly agree with the amount of AWD models on the local lots, but there are still RWD models available, without having to special-order them (and they're NOT only base models with no options either).

As far as winter tires are concerned, granted each area has a different climate, but when you live in an area that averages over 150" of snow per year, and when it can fall at rates of 4-6" PER HOUR, winter tires are a must. I lose count of how many different AWD vehicles (SUVs, cars, etc.) that end up being buried in a roadside ditch simply because their all-seasons can't keep up with the conditions. People tend to forget that AWD only helps with acceleration, but does nothing in terms of steering or stopping on slippery roads. Given a choice, I'd take a vehicle with winter tires over any AWD vehicle with all-season tires, no matter which set of wheels are actually attached to the drivetrain.

And IIRC, there are some local dealers that actually store the winter tires/wheels for you when they're not needed, and will swap out the 3-season wheels/tires and store them in the winter months (for a fee, of course!)

rayainsw

spam
[ sigh ]

ivan_99

"this is one of good opportunity"

Couldn't have said it better myself...

Kirstie_H

I'm sure you could... go on, give it a try.

smarty666

Well then I'm telling you something you already know

smarty666

Very good points and like you said, if there is enough snow, sleet, or God forbid Ice on the ground, no AWD or winter tires will save you!

Luckily, down here in NJ, while we get our fair share of snowfall, its nothing in comparison to what you guys in upstate NY get!

shipo

A point you might be missing is (for lack of a better phrase), not all snow, sleet and even ice is created equal. There are plenty of winter conditions where dedicated winter tires will find a fair amount of traction where even the best all-season tires will find virtually none.

qbrozen

I often wonder how in the world I and millions of others survived all these years without fancy AWD and electronic nannies.

:confuse:

Yeah, yeah, life is easier with these things. But don't try and tell me they are necessities.

edwardsf

Ja, ja, I vill play.

1. Audi
2. Bimmer
3. Mercedes.

Es gut, ja? ( I didn't look at any other posts.)

Also, if I am a Bimmer fan, then Car and Driver are Bimmer homers.

shipo

Spam-spam-bacon-and-spam!

sweendogy

Read your post on the TSx again then read my response. You like to respond with long paragraphs without getting to the point -