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I don't mean to sound like an "Ugly American". It's just that you hear so many comments from Americans of all stripes about rude and boorish behavior from the French. Shame on any American who treats a French visitor rudely because they can't or won't speak English. Also shame on any American visiting France who feels they are entitled to special treatment because of what happened during WW II. I'm just asking for common courtesy.
I agree 100%. I just can't stand the French attitude; in contrast I love the Italians and they seem to love us- and we DEFEATED them...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I agree with the sentiments regarding civility, manners, rudeness, surliness, etc. I did take history in elementary, high-school and at Miami University. As a visitor in many European and Central European (I've not gone east of the Czech Republic or Poland) I have not ever felt I should be entitled to anything due to America's participation and help in past wars. I have Brussel-ian, Italian, Netherlandian and Luxemborgian (?) relatives. My relatives all speak at least three languages, the folks who live in The Haugue speak, Dutch, German, French, Italian and English.
The locals in Prague, universally seem to speak, in this order, Russian, German, English and Czech (some also add another language, either French, Polish or Italian). So many folks, however, seem to have a first goto language.
My point in some previous posts was the contrast between citizens of various countries -- the French were rude (at least some were); initially, I would not automatically assume they would know if we were British or Americans -- all the menus use the British flag to indicate which part of the menu is in English. I don't recall ever seeing the American flag in any country on a menu to indicate English translation here. I rarely told anyone where I was from, unless asked -- which the folks at Oktoberfest in Munich seem keen to know.
I don't think anyone I've ever known who has been to Europe goes there with anything less than a sense of awe and wonder at the beauty of the countrysides, the diversity of the cities (knowing that they are not 200 years old, but multiple times 200 years old). I know of no one travelling to a European destination, who has anything but a desire for a vacation -- it has never occurred to me to think too much about WWII, while visiting a European country, for instance, other than my trips to Poland (Krakow, Warsaw) where we went to the concentration camps, the salt mines. Then there was the trip to see old Warsaw which was lovingly restored after it was virtually leveled during the war. Even Prague which does have some remnants of Soviet occupation, seems much more of the now, not the then, so to speak.
I have been to Germany and Italy the most, and I have been to German museums which do put history on display -- the good, the bad and the pure evil that we all have learned about. In Amsterdam, I went to Ann Frank's house, which was also presented, er, "objectively." Been to Checkpoint Charlie in Berlin, too -- went to the museum, which again put some very unpleasant things on display. But the trip to the Doges Palace in Venice with the torture devices on display, is also quite eye opening.
I don't recall any resentment of the US on display anywhere -- the museums didn't editorialize or express regret, anger or, hmm, je ne sais quoi. I saw nothing that would encourage an American to somehow believe in their superiority. There were, generally speaking, no ugly Americans -- or even ignorant ones as were depicted in the Hepburn movie, set in Venice, "Summertime."
Continuing . . .
Took a tour of the Maginot Line, and my tour guide -- French -- made fun of France for "how you say, a lame attempt to prevent the Germans from invading." We did smile at his attempt at humor, but again, most of my two dozen+ trips to Europe have been as a guest in the [whatever] country, and I was pleased to be able to be a guest, in fact, I often was humbled by the locals as they were multi-lingual, whereas I was only able to speak a little German (I took lessons for about three months back in the 20th Century). I expected very little out of the local folks I would interact with, other than a certain level of courtesy since they were, after all in the hospitality business; and I did not condescend to them.
Yet, go figure, the French sometimes seemed on the verge of being annoyed by our presence with the exception of those involved with customer service at very high buck restaurants and our hotel, the PARIS - LE GRAND ($500+ per night, 5 stars). BTW, the hotel is an oh wow experience. I loved it, but I would, knowing what I now know, never stay there again (since most of the time we were there, in our room, it was night and we were in the room with no lights on, sleeping; I can find a very nice place to sleep for less than half that amount (often 3 stars), in other words; if my goal was to just stay at the hotel, I might think differently, however.)
Anyway, FN has really come through for us all -- lots of great travel and adventure, great pics and of course some car talk. I, for one, would love to hear more about the car, the driving -- any positives, any surprises, overall impressions, any "I wish it did this" comments, etc. It is a BMW, after all, so I would expect it to do almost everything in fine fashion, but still. Hey FN, what features and options did you configure the thing with, and which ones are you most impressed by? Is this your first vehicle with Sat Nav, if not, how is BMW's interface in your opinion?
Back to some travel tips. . .
Far as I'm concerned, Paris should be on everyone's list -- at least once. I've been there several times and despite some surly service folks, I would go again in a heartbeat, even seeing the Mona Lisa, so far, has not gotten old. Darn thing is really tiny though.
Paris restaurant that I particularly enjoyed: the Jules Verne (in the Eiffel Tower):
In France, on the other hand, we went to a bistro, like you see in the movies, in Paris and the waiter gave up his picture for the dictionary next to the word "surly". Apparently since tipping is not as serious as it is in the US, this waiter was actually pissed when we thanked him (in English) when he brought us our wine, beer and cheese saying (in heavily accented French) "why can't you people even TRY to speak French?" OK, well perhaps I could say merci, but other than asking "how's the weather" and saying "I like chocolate ice cream" I didn't think I wanted to embarrass myself or run the risk of butchering my communications (especially since the menu we were given was multi-lingual). How wude!
And that is why the French don't like Americans. Most don't even bother to try to speak in French instead expecting everyone else to speak English. Well guess what - they do but they appreciate your faulting attempt to speak their language. Once you start to "embarrass" yourself they will speak with you in English. It's called courtesy. How would you feel if a tourist came up to you in Cincinnati and started speaking in French without even an attempt to speak English? I'm guessing the same as that waiter.
When I travel to Quebec, my limited French gets a smile and a hearty English reply.
France is the only country that acts like this, I speak Spanish, and I sign in American Sign Language, but sorry I don't speak french... If you don't like it, that is your issue not mine. So far the rudest drivers have been the french, if there is a cm of space they will take it, no signal they will just come over. Had a run in with a motorcyclist today, he wanted to cut in, front of me, and got all bent out of shape because I wouldn't back up to allow him to pass... He stood in front of our car and [non-permissible content removed] at us, that was until I got out of the car, he hoped back on his bike and took off, the karma of it was he rear ended a car about 5 cars in front of us, a55hole...
Mark, the car is basically fully loaded, that was the nice thing about about doing a ED, Now for 2016 BMW has made major changes to the 3 series, but the GT and 4 series car's haven't gotten the "styling" changes like the sedan, but other "changes" they have. ALL 3 series and 4 series cars come with sport suspension as standard, as well as sport seats, NOW, for some odd reason, BMWNA does not think the north american x-drive cars should have the sport suspension, doesn't matter if you get the M sport package or Sport.. So the trick to is order the Dynamic handling package, and had the same time you can order the M Adaptive Suspension (think GM's magnetic ride.) So with those two options the DHP is only 1K and the M Adaptive Suspension was only $700 your x-drive will have the moves of RWD cars. So with that, we also got the Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC), Tech package (we love the heads up display) Drivers assistance package, Auto High beams, Alarms is standard for 2016. So we have 2500KM on the car, I love the ACC, but I wish there was a way to turn the adaptive part off, here in France if the french see the slightest opening between you and the car in front they will merge right over so the adaptive part of the cruise leaves about 8 car lengths so of course the french moves right in, so what does that do, slows the car down even more, because it now has to leave more room between you and the car in front...
GPS, it's interesting, give you an example, when we left Marseilles for Beaune, we programmed the new hotel into the GPS, We first used the address of the hotel, the GPS couldn't find it, so we used google and found it that way. At times the GPS gets confused (like some women when they drive) and the directional pointer on the Nav screen will just spin around and it's not giving me a direction in which to go. This has happened a couple of time far, I'm hoping that problem will go away once the car hits north american soil..
Lighting package, the 3 series get LED lights, we have Xenon, which are adaptive. The Auto High Beams are nice, I believe I can get the Euro High beams coded in the car, in which one of the high beams will go to normal lights and the other high beam stays on.
Heated Seats, haven't tried them out yet..
Side and Top Camera's, we have a 360 degree view of the outside of the car, cool feature.
Premium Package, I love the Comfort Access, lots of cool features can be coded into the car, but you have to have Comfort access to do it.
So all F3X cars have a toggle switch to go between Eco-Pro (boring setting, it's to help save gas) Comfort, Sport and Sport+, since we have the SAT (Sport Automatic Transmission standard BTW) we gained Sport+. Sport + allows for the some of the elec nannies to turned off or not interfere so quickly. Now my 320 has the same toggle switch, before I got my car "coded" to activate the SAT, when I would go from Comfort to sport the only thing that really changed was the throttle setting, it was more sensitive in sport. The GT with X drive handles wonderful, when we were in Lake Como, it was raining very hard, and at times I tried to get the car side ways, had it in Sport and it would not do it.
Sport Seats, I haven't had much time to play with them, they are comfortable but could use some more adjustments..
Over all I like the car, we went back and forth on getting the 328 or the 335, part of me wish's we got the 335i, it's all all about the power..
At the Welt, I sat in the rear seat, MAN talk about room, and the seat in front of me was positioned for me...
We are averaging 24 with the car, which I don't think it so bad since we are averaging about 90 on the highways..
The Drive today was to have taken 4 hours but ended up being 8.5, lots of traffic and a problem at one of the toll intersection...
Excellent pictures and comments traveling Europe. Some serious wheels at that wedding for sure (except the limo, of course!). They really are getting good at bending metal at HyunKia!
FN - Regarding your eqipment specifications: I see you went to all that trouble to arrange for ED, then got a strippie! (jus' kidding).
At this point, it may be too soon for you to have reached the conclusion that we have, with respect to th around/top view cameras, but after living with my wife's Infiniti with that featire, it should be standard eqiupment (on all cars), I would imagine insurance claims and costs would decrease especially from parking lot fender-benders. Cool tech, IMO right up there with ESP and ABS.
Sounds like you have a super-nice Bimmer, congrats on that!
Frankly, to get this much interest and entertainment (to say nothing of the education/o information) most folks would have to pay. Edmunds and you have essentially made this possible for free. What a deal!
Howdy group sorry about the silence, we are back in the states, so I can finish this photo log.
So we drove from Marseilles France to Beaune (pronounced Bone), France. So why Beanue, France, Beaune is the wine capital of Burgundy, all the top winery's are here, Rick is into wines, and he wanted to come here. The drive up took longer then expected. We ended up getting caught up in a traffic jam at one of the toll booth's, the machine wouldn't take people's credit cards... That was a mess.. The photos are few,
Typical small town/village in France
So you don't think I couldn't post a cool car photo. This car needs to be imported into the US, it's a CLS wagon, talk about Form over function, It is stunning in person.. This was the first one we saw parked, and had to take a photo of it.
I see you went to all that trouble to arrange for ED, then got a strippie!
Actually, that's about the only way to get one without all the stuff that the dealers order theirs with and with the one or two options you care about, like color.
So you don't think I couldn't post a cool car photo. This car needs to be imported into the US, it's a CLS wagon, talk about Form over function, It is stunning in person.. This was the first one we saw parked, and had to take a photo of it.
It's a beautiful car but I predict that MB would sell 10's of them in North America.
The marketing mavens have rendered them evil here, so we get to deal with SUVs, SAVs, & LMNOPVs, and god knows what else because, well, the sheeple "like" them.
You haven't been to Europe, I would have to day, that 75% of all 3 series we saw was a Wagon, We saw lot of A4 and A6 wagons, but yes here in the states we want SUV's... I'd take a wagon over a SUV any day.
So as I mentioned Beaune, France is in the heart of the Burgundy region of France. So the first day we just walked about Beaune, it's much bigger then what Rick and I assumed it was. Now, most towns in Europe are old, and Beaune is no different, we are talking settled right around 1440, so the charm of the city is the age, and how clean the city is. Besides being in the heart of the Burgundy region Beaune also is known for Hospices de Beaune which was founded in 1442, it's an amazing place, hospice holds a special place in my heart. So sit back and enjoy the photos of the city.
When we arrived in Beaune (Sat evening) at the resort we stayed at, Rick asked me, "So, when we doing the winery tours?"... Ummm, Winery tours... I guess I forgot to book that.. You can't come to the heart of Burgundy country and not go on wine tours.. Now the walk of shame to the concierges as this is going to cost me.... Dearly... Spoke to the concierges, told him what we were looking for, he nodded, and said he knew what to do... Oh lord, this will cost me.. Fast forward to Sunday morning, the same concierges informed us that he has us booked, cost 500 euro for the both of, and it's a PVT tour.. I knew it was going to cost me..
So monday morning at 0900 on the dot a black Audi A8L pulls up and the driver, David, walks in and introduces himself to me, mind you, never meet the guy before. Introduces himself to Rick, and off we go.
Ok, this is how one travels around wine country in France. David was great, and if anyone wants his contact info, please let me know. He worked in a few wineries around Beaune, knows a lot of people, he was able to get us into all the wineries for free and in before the crowds arrived. Very knowledgeable person and personable.
First up was Chateau de Pommard
The tour was great, we were taken down below where the wine is stored, very interesting and educational.
After aging in the oak barrels then the wine is bottled, then stacked.
After the tour it was tasting time
Don't ask how much we bought... Interesting note, doesn't matter what winery we were at shipping cost to the US was the same...
This is a smaller family winery, however, they product some excellent wines.
It was harvest time in Burgundy so the grapes were flowing, we were shown around the winery by the owner and explained the whole process.
So many of us remember Lucy crushing grapes with her feet, well, they don't do that anymore, they have machines for that.
The machine rotates and crushes the grapes and the juice flows down.
Crushed grapes
Jucie from the crushed grapes, yeah look bad, but tasted good. Once they are done crushing the grapes, they are placed in huge vats and all the sediments settle to the bottom, this is done 3 times before the juice is places into oak barrels to ferment.
Here is a map of the area where the winery is at, each color represent different types of grapes, one thing I learned was, the vast acres of grape vine we saw, are not all owned by just one company. The map show inside the vineyards small sections with lines in them, that indicated what this winery owns, as you can tell they are scarred all over the place. This is how it is done in France.
Grapes that just arrived, and was picked about an hour before the photo was taken, yes, they were very sweet tasting.
Father and Son loading the crusher for next batch.
Next we stopped by one of the most famous and most expensive wine makers in the Burgundy region Romnee Conti average bottle of wine from this winery is $300 US. and no we didn't buy anything here..
Next we went to Chateau Du Clos De Vougeot, The Clos de Vougeot vineyard was created by Cistercian monks of Cîteaux Abbey in 12th century, this is the only vineyard that is "enclosed" by a rock wall, and that is still intact today as it was in the 12th century. I could go on about this place, but do a search on it, it's an amazing place.
Lastly we went to a very small winery, very interesting concept, the owner build a restaurant underground that features food and wine from the area.
He also has a small collection of "stuff"
Wine
More stuff
That was it for the tour, we were tired!! Had a great time and the A8L was awesome, I loved the message seat.. Now we get to wait for our wine to arrive.
I've never been to Europe, but my wife visited Italy about 3 yrs. ago. Her interactions with the locals were very positive. She'd love to go back. As for the "surly French" - I've heard that same comment from many Americans of varied backgrounds who've visited France. My opinion is if it wasn't for Americans like my late father who participated in D-Day they would be speaking German now. And my late Aunt told that to a surly sales person she had an unpleasant interaction with in Paris. God Bless America!!
FN, thank you so much for going to the trouble of posting your travels and pics. Very enjoyable and enlightening.
Couldn't the French claim that if it wasn't for them we'd still be speaking England's version of English?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
So we left Beaune Wed morning about 9am, destination, Charles de Gaulle (GDC) airport, most of BMW drop off locations are at airports, we were scheduled to fly out of CDG, but the day before I found a much better flight out of London (Rick has a couple of ex-co workers now living in London) cancelled the original flights now book our new flights out of London Heathrow, all flights were booked on Frequent Flyer Miles, and one nice thing is when you cancel there is no charge, most airlines these days will charge you a "close in" fee if you book an award travel with in 2 weeks, however, since I have elite status with AA, that is waved for me.
We super slabbed it to CDG, nice thing about France is speed limit is 130Kph, which is about 80, But like any country people travel faster then that. I averaged 90mph. We arrived at CDG at 130pm, got he car washed, (US customs requires the car to be "clean." there is a carwash at CDG, 8 euro later car was clean. Now, if you have been to Paris you know he city is horrible to drive in, and the French are just crazy drivers (really look at their cars), however, the route I programmed took us to the outside of Paris and missed most of the traffic. About 30 minutes before getting to the airport, the windshield cracks, I did not hear a rock or something hit it. Luckily the insurance on the car (that BMW pays for) will replace it. We get to the drop off location of the car, sign the necessary paperwork, and we are done, we say good by to the car, wont see her for at least 2 weeks. Total 3127 K driven on this vacation.
Yes, there is a crack if you look in the middle of the photo
Farewell photo...
The Euro plates will stay on the car when it arrives at the Dealer, and the Dealer been instructed to leave the front plate on (AZ does not require a front plate.)
This trip was about bucket list items, so another one was to take the Eurostar to London, the company that we dropped the car off took us to Gare du Nord train startion which is in the heart of Paris, it was an interesting drive.. We made it in 40 minutes, lets just say the French just do not care who they piss off. We bought the tickets at the train station, and was on board minutes later, we got the last two seats together facing forward. When we got on the train, there was this french women sitting in one of our seats, the business class trains are set up with single seats on one side, and two seats on the other, the two seats are set up to seat facing each other, so two people facing the direction of travel and the other are not. We we arrived, in her very broken English she wanted us to take the other seats, we said no. We knew from the seat map when we bought the tickets 3 people were sitting here, not 4. Come to find out, she decided she didn't like her single seat, plus a friend of her was on the train and wanted our seats. so they can sit together. Now the other passenger arrives (older lady), then the cabin attendant. The single rider (older lady) sits where the young women was to have sat, but she was refusing to move, and wanted us to sit in the other seats. Rick doesn't like traveling backwards. We tell the cabin attended this and we wanted our original seats, the young women speak french (but I think she speaks English too) to the cabin attended, so we end up in this circle of language, I think look at the young women, and said, I knew you speak English, so stop playing games. I was right, she did, so she understood everything I was saying, which really pissed me off. So I told her that we wanted our seats we reserved, if she didn't like then go find another compartment to ride in. She refused to move, needless to day, she won to a point, we were just moved to the Business Select Premium cabin... Like I said before of the French, We can do this because we are French.. It's the attitude that really piss's me off.. Europstar trains and dirty, they are getting new trains, I hope they have WIFI...
We arrived in London about 7pm, Ricks friends picked us up and took us out to dinner, then to our hotel.
Conclusion
The whole trip we talked about how this car will invoke memories as long as we have it. This is really the only way to buy a car, BMW will allow you to keep your trade in until your car arrives, I'm sure Audi and MB will do the same thing. The only difference on our next one, in the fall of 2017, we wont visit to many cities...
Have been home now 6 days, and just got over the Jet Lag....
I'll call tomorrow and find out where the car is and if it has been assigned a ship yet, once I know the shipping line and name of the ship, we can track it's location...
The new S4 has been announced and the details are impressive -- of course the question for the US market, as usual, are led by: When will this (or some very similar version) be coming to our shores? The timing, for me, would be calendar 2017 at the earliest, but sometimes Audi shoots itself in the foot (if you ax me) by delaying the really fun cars for at least a year. Of course, I just read there will be an RS3 coming, with 350 HP, etc, which makes me wonder if folks will look at a 356 HP S4 and shop it against the RS3.
Presumably, the S4 will be longer and wider, so perhaps the size, not the HP will mitigate and dilute the temptation to cross shop. Or perhaps the RS3 will be priced out of reach compared to the S4. Now, then, this makes me wonder if Audi may think it needs a non-avant RS4 to go up against BMW and Mercedes high zoot models (now that the RS5 is gone).
If history is repeated, the new S4 will not take a breathtaking leap up in MSRP, but will take more than an evolutionary leap in content and refinement.
2017 (calendar) could be a very exciting year indeed.
flightnurse - I have not been on this board recently [ not in the market in the near future ] and read several of your BMW ED posts - thanks for posting. Reminds me of the 2011 BMW ED trip with my daughter. - Ray Enjoy the car when it reaches you - again!
Mark we saw one RS3 in Europe it was a 3 door hatchback, just cursing on the highway with us slow pokes, Since the #40i has gained HP the S4 should too.
The new S4 has been announced and the details are impressive -- of course the question for the US market, as usual, are led by: When will this (or some very similar version) be coming to our shores? The timing, for me, would be calendar 2017 at the earliest, but sometimes Audi shoots itself in the foot (if you ax me) by delaying the really fun cars for at least a year. Of course, I just read there will be an RS3 coming, with 350 HP, etc, which makes me wonder if folks will look at a 356 HP S4 and shop it against the RS3.
Presumably, the S4 will be longer and wider, so perhaps the size, not the HP will mitigate and dilute the temptation to cross shop. Or perhaps the RS3 will be priced out of reach compared to the S4. Now, then, this makes me wonder if Audi may think it needs a non-avant RS4 to go up against BMW and Mercedes high zoot models (now that the RS5 is gone).
If history is repeated, the new S4 will not take a breathtaking leap up in MSRP, but will take more than an evolutionary leap in content and refinement.
2017 (calendar) could be a very exciting year indeed.
Mark...don't know if you saw the details...
-Turbo 3.0 V6 (no more supercharger), 354 HP, 369 lb/ft, available from 1,300 RPM to 4,500 RPM. -6 speed manual (maybe), but most will get an 8 speed auto (no DSG) with a Torque Converter. -weighs in at 3594 lbs. -40:60 torque split front to back with standard Quattro -expected starting price of $50K
The new S4 has been announced and the details are impressive -- of course the question for the US market, as usual, are led by: When will this (or some very similar version) be coming to our shores? The timing, for me, would be calendar 2017 at the earliest, but sometimes Audi shoots itself in the foot (if you ax me) by delaying the really fun cars for at least a year. Of course, I just read there will be an RS3 coming, with 350 HP, etc, which makes me wonder if folks will look at a 356 HP S4 and shop it against the RS3.
Presumably, the S4 will be longer and wider, so perhaps the size, not the HP will mitigate and dilute the temptation to cross shop. Or perhaps the RS3 will be priced out of reach compared to the S4. Now, then, this makes me wonder if Audi may think it needs a non-avant RS4 to go up against BMW and Mercedes high zoot models (now that the RS5 is gone).
If history is repeated, the new S4 will not take a breathtaking leap up in MSRP, but will take more than an evolutionary leap in content and refinement.
2017 (calendar) could be a very exciting year indeed.
Mark...don't know if you saw the details...
-Turbo 3.0 V6 (no more supercharger), 354 HP, 369 lb/ft, available from 1,300 RPM to 4,500 RPM. -6 speed manual (maybe), but most will get an 8 speed auto (no DSG) with a Torque Converter. -weighs in at 3594 lbs. -40:60 torque split front to back with standard Quattro -expected starting price of $50K
I heard the bad news that not only did someone at Audi make the horrific decision to de-content the new upcoming S4 with a slushy 8 speed ZF auto, but they also decided not to make the 6-speed manual an option.
If this is true, Audi should really just make the S4 with a CVT and call it a day since that would suit the customers this move is intended to impress.
If the manual was made available, and my '14 S4 was totaled in the near future (hope not, but hypothetically speaking), the lack of a DSG option would make me get the 6-speed manual if available, if I was getting another new S4.
Otherwise, hello Golf R!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The new S4 has been announced and the details are impressive -- of course the question for the US market, as usual, are led by: When will this (or some very similar version) be coming to our shores? The timing, for me, would be calendar 2017 at the earliest, but sometimes Audi shoots itself in the foot (if you ax me) by delaying the really fun cars for at least a year. Of course, I just read there will be an RS3 coming, with 350 HP, etc, which makes me wonder if folks will look at a 356 HP S4 and shop it against the RS3.
Presumably, the S4 will be longer and wider, so perhaps the size, not the HP will mitigate and dilute the temptation to cross shop. Or perhaps the RS3 will be priced out of reach compared to the S4. Now, then, this makes me wonder if Audi may think it needs a non-avant RS4 to go up against BMW and Mercedes high zoot models (now that the RS5 is gone).
If history is repeated, the new S4 will not take a breathtaking leap up in MSRP, but will take more than an evolutionary leap in content and refinement.
2017 (calendar) could be a very exciting year indeed.
Mark...don't know if you saw the details...
-Turbo 3.0 V6 (no more supercharger), 354 HP, 369 lb/ft, available from 1,300 RPM to 4,500 RPM. -6 speed manual (maybe), but most will get an 8 speed auto (no DSG) with a Torque Converter. -weighs in at 3594 lbs. -40:60 torque split front to back with standard Quattro -expected starting price of $50K
I heard the bad news that not only did someone at Audi make the horrific decision to de-content the new upcoming S4 with a slushy 8 speed ZF auto, but they also decided not to make the 6-speed manual an option.
If this is true, Audi should really just make the S4 with a CVT and call it a day since that would suit the customers this move is intended to impress.
If the manual was made available, and my '14 S4 was totaled in the near future (hope not, but hypothetically speaking), the lack of a DSG option would make me get the 6-speed manual if available, if I was getting another new S4.
Otherwise, hello Golf R!
Don't wait. Order another one to your specs. Trade in and get one of the last of the current generation while you can. Reset the warranty clock & get one that hasn't been clobbered by a Lexus RX.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
Car manufactures will never make everybody happy. I would assume too many customers complained about the driveablity of the DSG in normal traffic Enthusiasts will always lose out.
Don't wait. Order another one to your specs. Trade in and get one of the last of the current generation while you can. Reset the warranty clock & get one that hasn't been clobbered by a Lexus RX.
First it was a Subaru not a lexus, second with the devalue of his S4 his trade in value is less. The accident I'm sure is on his car fax.
Car manufactures will never make everybody happy. I would assume too many customers complained about the driveablity of the DSG in normal traffic Enthusiasts will always lose out.
With all due respect and a showing of [my own] ignorance, I wonder what driveability issues are you referring to?
Given that both hardware and software components are in a state of constant revision, I can share some observations from the perspective of one who has a 2014 SQ5 (8-speed Tip) and a 2014 S4 (7-speed DSG) in captivity.
The programming of the Tip makes it the best iteration of the "slush" transmission -- as someone called it -- I've ever driven. The DSG is the smoothest transmission I've ever driven in that, when left in auto shift mode, the shifts are basically heard, not felt. I know the transmission has up-shifted by ear and by virtue of the drop of the tach needle, but the progression in feeling is unlike traditional torque converter auto transmissions and unlike manual transmissions. Both the Tip and the manual transmissions have a momentary disruption of forward momentum when the transmission decides to shift or when the driver depresses the clutch -- watching from the side, when either one of these transmissions is up-shifted, the heads of the driver and a front-seat passenger are momentarily "thrown" forward at the moment of the depression of the clutch or up-shift of the auto -- there is no such throwing or lurching with the DSG -- in fact in that ONE aspect, I would think the DSG could be said to be somewhat like a CVT. Somewhat, not much, but a little "somewhat."
Downshifting, again, is an area where the DSG excels -- when in full auto-mode "S"port shifting program, the DSG transmission rev matches to the imminent downshift and the "second" clutch engages with virtually no kick. Only a manual transmission even comes close to this, but having said that, the DSG is so much smoother on a rev-matching down shift it isn't even close.
Now, I've driven the S4 (DSG), SQ5 (Tip) and S6 (DSG) equipped cars -- of the three, two of them are just that little bit better in terms of their shifting prowess and smoothness. Again, with all of the above subtleties stated for the record, it is apparent that someone at Audi (or whoever writes the software) has done everything they can to make virtually all of the "dead giveaways" that you are driving a Tip as invisible and imperceptible as possible. In short, unless you're really looking for HARD EVIDENCE that the SQ5 isn't a DSG, you might not really notice the SQ5 is not a DSG. Over time and with the availability (as I have) of two very very similar cars to drive back-to-back for comparison, well, you probably would be able to discern the subtle differences between the DSG and the Tip.
At this stage of my own posterior meter, I can tell the difference between the DSG and the Tip -- the Tip, NOT the DSG has some hint of drivability issues and even placing the Tip in "S" all of the time doesn't completely wipe out the ever-so-slight shift hesitation and shift lurch behaviors, although you really have to be paying attention to notice them.
I have not (yet) driven an RS7 -- frankly because I just don't think it is worth $120,000 (even if I had millions in the check book to do with as I please). I also don't think an S7 is worth $10,000 more than an S6 just for the body style. But I'm also the guy who resents an extra charge for "paint" beyond gloss black or gloss white.
I bring the RS7 up, not to reveal my proclivities and, er, cheapness for things such as pearl paint colors, but to remind anyone who needs to know, that Audi puts the very specially programmed 8-speed Tip in the RS7. Several reviews of the car noted their assumption that the RS7 transmission was another very fine implementation of the DSG; and, then, noting later in their review how virtually imperceptible the Tip is from the DSG as executed in the RS7.
Under full throttle in dynamic mode, both our S4 and SQ5 are prodigious accelerative forces of nature -- both of them emit the joyful "PHLTTTBBB" (aka fart sound) upon up-shift and when in S mode have quick paddle shift moves (but paddle-shifts are just a smidge quicker in the DSG, however).
Again, were the Audi folk to gift me (fat chance) a 2017 MY S4 Prestige 8-speed Tip with a torque vectoring rear differential and with red leather seats, I would be a happy man. Of course, this is based on my assumption that the hardware and especially the shifting software of the 2017 S4 Tip had continued to move it even closer to the characteristics of a DSG (which appears to be the programmers goal).
I have heard that the BMW implementation of the dual-clutch auto did indeed have driveability issues -- but I have only heard that the Audi and Porsche implementation and programming of the DSG have few, if any, critics.
What are the Audi DSG transmission issues?
And, why, if the DSG is not a fun, friendly transmission for daily driving, do they (the mfgrs) keep making the programming of the Tip versions as close to the feeling of a DSG as possible?
Car manufactures will never make everybody happy. I would assume too many customers complained about the driveablity of the DSG in normal traffic Enthusiasts will always lose out.
With all due respect and a showing of [my own] ignorance, I wonder what driveability issues are you referring to?
Given that both hardware and software components are in a state of constant revision, I can share some observations from the perspective of one who has a 2014 SQ5 (8-speed Tip) and a 2014 S4 (7-speed DSG) in captivity.
The programming of the Tip makes it the best iteration of the "slush" transmission -- as someone called it -- I've ever driven. The DSG is the smoothest transmission I've ever driven in that, when left in auto shift mode, the shifts are basically heard, not felt. I know the transmission has up-shifted by ear and by virtue of the drop of the tach needle, but the progression in feeling is unlike traditional torque converter auto transmissions and unlike manual transmissions. Both the Tip and the manual transmissions have a momentary disruption of forward momentum when the transmission decides to shift or when the driver depresses the clutch -- watching from the side, when either one of these transmissions is up-shifted, the heads of the driver and a front-seat passenger are momentarily "thrown" forward at the moment of the depression of the clutch or up-shift of the auto -- there is no such throwing or lurching with the DSG -- in fact in that ONE aspect, I would think the DSG could be said to be somewhat like a CVT. Somewhat, not much, but a little "somewhat."
Downshifting, again, is an area where the DSG excels -- when in full auto-mode "S"port shifting program, the DSG transmission rev matches to the imminent downshift and the "second" clutch engages with virtually no kick. Only a manual transmission even comes close to this, but having said that, the DSG is so much smoother on a rev-matching down shift it isn't even close.
Now, I've driven the S4 (DSG), SQ5 (Tip) and S6 (DSG) equipped cars -- of the three, two of them are just that little bit better in terms of their shifting prowess and smoothness. Again, with all of the above subtleties stated for the record, it is apparent that someone at Audi (or whoever writes the software) has done everything they can to make virtually all of the "dead giveaways" that you are driving a Tip as invisible and imperceptible as possible. In short, unless you're really looking for HARD EVIDENCE that the SQ5 isn't a DSG, you might not really notice the SQ5 is not a DSG. Over time and with the availability (as I have) of two very very similar cars to drive back-to-back for comparison, well, you probably would be able to discern the subtle differences between the DSG and the Tip.
At this stage of my own posterior meter, I can tell the difference between the DSG and the Tip -- the Tip, NOT the DSG has some hint of drivability issues and even placing the Tip in "S" all of the time doesn't completely wipe out the ever-so-slight shift hesitation and shift lurch behaviors, although you really have to be paying attention to notice them.
I have not (yet) driven an RS7 -- frankly because I just don't think it is worth $120,000 (even if I had millions in the check book to do with as I please). I also don't think an S7 is worth $10,000 more than an S6 just for the body style. But I'm also the guy who resents an extra charge for "paint" beyond gloss black or gloss white.
I bring the RS7 up, not to reveal my proclivities and, er, cheapness for things such as pearl paint colors, but to remind anyone who needs to know, that Audi puts the very specially programmed 8-speed Tip in the RS7. Several reviews of the car noted their assumption that the RS7 transmission was another very fine implementation of the DSG; and, then, noting later in their review how virtually imperceptible the Tip is from the DSG as executed in the RS7.
Under full throttle in dynamic mode, both our S4 and SQ5 are prodigious accelerative forces of nature -- both of them emit the joyful "PHLTTTBBB" (aka fart sound) upon up-shift and when in S mode have quick paddle shift moves (but paddle-shifts are just a smidge quicker in the DSG, however).
Again, were the Audi folk to gift me (fat chance) a 2017 MY S4 Prestige 8-speed Tip with a torque vectoring rear differential and with red leather seats, I would be a happy man. Of course, this is based on my assumption that the hardware and especially the shifting software of the 2017 S4 Tip had continued to move it even closer to the characteristics of a DSG (which appears to be the programmers goal).
I have heard that the BMW implementation of the dual-clutch auto did indeed have driveability issues -- but I have only heard that the Audi and Porsche implementation and programming of the DSG have few, if any, critics.
What are the Audi DSG transmission issues?
And, why, if the DSG is not a fun, friendly transmission for daily driving, do they (the mfgrs) keep making the programming of the Tip versions as close to the feeling of a DSG as possible?
I'd agree that Audi's implementation of DSG is spectacular both in 6-speed form in my '06 A3 (they mastered this 9 years ago at least), and in the 7-speed iteration of my S4. In D mode the S4 is smoother and more "auto" like than in the A3. To me, the tiny bit of lurching when coming to a stop is normal, I'm used to it, expect it, and don't notice it at all as such. I have heard that Audi did get some complaints with the early DSG's for not being very "auto-smooth" like. People didn't seem to understand it behaves more mechanical, more connected, and that it is a good thing as it is more like a manual in that sense. I don't mind feeling the shift under power.
I'm afraid this change has nothing to do with drive-ability or consumer feedback, but simply a bean counter telling Audi they can make xxx $$$ more per car by using a cheap transmission rather than the best but pricey DSG. This bean counter is in for a rude awakening when sales plummet. The new R8 gets Audi's best dual clutch transmission, so they have figured out how to make it work in very high HP and torque heavy monsters.
I think the review above comparing the very good 8-speed auto to DSG will echo a lot of other people's reviews of the ZF-8 speed tiptronic. It is good, but not quite as good as DSG. Progress going the wrong direction. Perhaps the mid-cycle refresh will correct the mistake, or it is Audi's way of raising the carrot to make people purchase the RS4 to get the right transmission.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Don't wait. Order another one to your specs. Trade in and get one of the last of the current generation while you can. Reset the warranty clock & get one that hasn't been clobbered by a Lexus RX.
First it was a Subaru not a lexus, second with the devalue of his S4 his trade in value is less. The accident I'm sure is on his car fax.
Nope, @nyccarguy had it right; it was a Lexus RX 350 to clobbered the front right end of my S4. I was shopping Subaru when the wife was looking for a new automobile recently; they lost out to the Golf Sportwagen, with get this, DSG & TDI.
You know, other than the red paint looking terrible in 10 rather than 20 years, I'm not worried about the shoddy repair work anymore. The car has remained uber-reliable other than that one leaky coolant hose someone in Escondido, CA was probably responsible for.
I haven't found anything other than a loose child seat hook bracket cover to take it back in for warranty; I need something else to go wrong so I don't waste my time over a little black plastic trim piece in the back seat. I think at the track the other weekend with temps as high as 109 degrees I cooked the bright red S4 badge paint on the brake calipers, maybe I can claim "finish paint" warranty on it and get new calipers They are more of a smokey maroon now; though I haven't tried to clean them.
Being so reliable, I think I'll keep mine until it gives me reason to not do so, especially since it has been proven at least one S4 that @graphic_guy had was troublesome.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
As someone who just recently purchased an S4, and chose the 6-speed manual over the DSG, I'll add that it was a difficult decision due to the DSG being so darned good. As others have pointed out, shifts are imperceptible, other than from an audible standpoint, which I liked. Now, I haven't been the biggest fan of it in some of our other cars (TT, A3), but I thought the particular application in the S4 was outstanding.
At the end of the day, I made my decision based on "one last go" with the manual. I appreciate that Audi still offers it on the outgoing model, and thought I'd take advantage of it. That was a significant reason why I don't have too much heartache over buying a model that I knew would be replaced in the short-term.
I suspect the manual won't be offered on the new model. When the S3 isn't offered with it, and they just took it away from the R8, I can't imagine why Audi would choose to offer it on the S4.
In any case, if I were to upgrade to the new model in the future, I don't think the 8-speed tip would deter me. I've had similar transmissions in previous cars (535, X3) and thought they were great.
@flightnurse - thanks for sharing your experience! No doubt it makes me want to do this some day with my wife. Like you said - those memories will be ingrained with the car itself!
As someone who just recently purchased an S4, and chose the 6-speed manual over the DSG, I'll add that it was a difficult decision due to the DSG being so darned good. As others have pointed out, shifts are imperceptible, other than from an audible standpoint, which I liked. Now, I haven't been the biggest fan of it in some of our other cars (TT, A3), but I thought the particular application in the S4 was outstanding.
At the end of the day, I made my decision based on "one last go" with the manual. I appreciate that Audi still offers it on the outgoing model, and thought I'd take advantage of it. That was a significant reason why I don't have too much heartache over buying a model that I knew would be replaced in the short-term.
I suspect the manual won't be offered on the new model. When the S3 isn't offered with it, and they just took it away from the R8, I can't imagine why Audi would choose to offer it on the S4.
In any case, if I were to upgrade to the new model in the future, I don't think the 8-speed tip would deter me. I've had similar transmissions in previous cars (535, X3) and thought they were great.
Congrats on joining the S4 owner ranks around here. In my opinion it is a car that does everything really well, still, I"d rather the choice be between a manual or DSG rather than an 8-speed Auto/Tip vs. CVT (for example).
If the 8-speed is a light unit; that's one consideration, but being 8-speeds; find it hard to believe the weight savings came from the tranny. Heard it's 254 lbs. lighter than the outgoing model; that's good progress! However, they made it even bigger, which makes me wonder if they could have shaved an additional 100 lbs keeping it the same size.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
If I recall correctly from the articles on the A4, that actually will come with the DSG as the sole transmission. With the upgraded 2.0T and the apparently improved driving dynamics, that should be very competitive in the segment.
If I recall correctly from the articles on the A4, that actually will come with the DSG as the sole transmission. With the upgraded 2.0T and the apparently improved driving dynamics, that should be very competitive in the segment.
breld:
One can only hope you are correct. The DSG, of course, that I would expect would be the latest and greatest 7-speed DSG such as is offered as the optional (to the manual) transmission on the current S4. The press releases I have seen and have translated, however, claim the S4 will have the 8-speed Tip. Current A4 2.0T models come with the 8-speed Tip, but NOT the DSG 7-speed. Now, then, however, therefore, notwithstanding:
The current iteration of the S3 ONLY comes with a DSG transmission -- a 6-speed version. I assume there are factors that impact what is and what can be, but I have to assume the 7-speed DSG is heavier than the 6-speed DSG. What I don't know is if the 8-speed Tip is lighter than the 7-speed DSG, however.
I see no logic (marketing logic, which is as opposed to 'real' logic) in Audi offering US customers the A4 with a 6-speed DSG since most of the A4's sold in the US the past few years have been 8-speed Tips. I assume the number of takers on FWD A4's in the US is quite small, so for practical purposes, I will exclude them from my following remarks.
Many of those in the market (for an Audi A4) for the first time, are probably cross shoppers, shopping against BMW, Mercedes and perhaps even Acura, Infiniti and Lexus. In a world where "more is better," I can only assume a new Audi A4 will receive a ding if it doesn't offer at least as many speeds as the cars it competes with. BMW 3's will soldier on with 8-speed ZF sourced transmissions, Acura will have, what, a NINE speed transmission? Mercedes 7-speed, Infiniti 7-speed, who knows if Lexus will, for the 2017 MY offer 6, 7, 8 or more speed automatics -- they've been having 6-speed units on the AWD versions and 8-speeds on the RWD cars, so, perhaps they have or will soon be upgrading to all 8-speeds or, who knows even more speeds?
The new shopper will HAVE to consider number of gears as a data point and if, for some reason, Audi chose to offer 6-speeds (DSG or not) while the other guys had 7, 8 or 9 speed units, I would think there would be some logic to the buyer saying, "MORE is BETTER, so Audi is now not at the top of my list."
I have not seen any evidence, and boo hoo (no sarcasm), it certainly appears that the DSG 7-speed will no longer be offered on the B9 Audis.
The only good news is that the 8-speed Tiptronic hardware and most especially software does continue to improve by imitating the DSG via a very expertly developed shift program. Said it before, I'm at least OK with the 8-speed Tip since it remains the best torque converter automatic I've yet driven.
"Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone?" - J. Mitchell
Just did a bit more research - it appears that the DSG (7-speed) will be offered on the FWD models on the upcoming A4, with the AWD models continuing with the 8-speed. That's according to a Consumer Reports article. I can't say that I've driven a FWD A4 - for some reason you can't find them here in Colorado - but I have to imagine that DSG is a nice upgrade over the CVT.
Our “highways” – well not all of our highways, roads and streets – used to be something most of us looked forward to embarking upon in our cars – even in what for most of us in hindsight were piece-of-crap cars; e.g., my first car – one of mom and dad’s two cars – was an early ‘60’s vintage VW beetle (the thing didn’t even have a gas gauge). Shortly after I got my license and had pretty much resigned myself to driving a 36HP stick shift car with a fabric sunroof and AM radio and a sort-of heater, dad traded "up" (?) for a Plymouth Valiant with a slant-6 engine and a “three on the tree” stick shift (and first gear was not synchronized). This four-door “babe repellent” also had an AM radio, but it was also equipped with factory A/C – which seemed odd for an otherwise stripped of all creature comforts vehicle.
I loved these cars – I knew they were pieces-of-crap, but I blocked that from my thoughts since these cars gave me freedom, tunes (on the AM) and what felt like unlimited mobility to drive from my bucolic and very sleepy, very little town (pop. 2,700 assuming everyone was home) north of Dayton, Ohio, to the big city (Dayton, if you’re wondering is still just barely a city in my opinion). Truth of the matter is that I rarely needed to drive the 50 mile round trip to Dayton, nor could I regularly afford the 50₵ worth of Clark’s premium gas (Clark only sold premium gas at that time, if you’re wondering) required for such an adventurous outing.
Today, in contrast, our highways and byways now no longer symbolize [much] freedom, rather they are often seen as barriers to freedom:
“Well I left my job about 5 o'clock, it took fifteen minutes go three blocks, Just in time to stand in line with a freeway looking like a parking lot. Damn this traffic jam, how I hate to be late, it hurts my motor to go so slow. Damn this traffic jam, time I get home my supper'll be cold, damn this traffic jam.”
James Taylor
When my 16 year-old-self got behind the wheel, it was darn near magical, the car was a mechanical being, to be sure, but somehow I was able to anthropomorphize my steed (really, a 36HP VW Beetle was a steed, no kidding) – it became an extension of me, I was no longer driving a machine, I was driving art, it was so cool it was hot. Crank up the single-speaker AM radio until it distorted and back off the volume a quarter turn and carefully balance the “tone control” to pump out all the bass that piece-of-crap speaker could muster.
Everything was possible.
Now, I have to admit, as much as the VW Beetle was not exactly a babe magnet, well the Valiant was truly a babe repellent, even though I figured out how to double clutch the thing to make certain I didn’t “grind a pound” every time I shifted to first-gear. Even so, the Valiant still represented possibilities and made promises to me (that it virtually never kept, I must admit).
Still, everything was possible (in cars).
Sundays, dad always would say “Let’s go for a little ride”. Off we’d go: Mom, dad and me in the other family car, the ’63 Chrysler Newport with push-button transmission, power steering and power brakes and both front and rear AM radio speakers. This one had aftermarket A/C even though dad bought it brand new from the next not-as-little town over Chrysler-Plymouth dealer. Ah, a big V8 and torsion-quiet ride, big whitewalls, bias-ply tires and full wheel covers – chrome everywhere – bling! Someday this will be mine I thought.
This car would be a babe magnet, I was sure of it.
Today, some of us, probably most of us, have lost that sense of possibility when we get behind the wheel, after all most Americans are getting into appliances, machines that simply cannot be anthropomorphized; and we’re getting to roads that allow movement like a pig through a python. In fact, if the 16-year-old's on my street are any indication, the future drivers aren’t even interested in driving until mom and dad make them by telling them “We’re not going to continue being your taxi service any more”.
Then, the automobile gave us a sense of excitement, perhaps danger (benign danger, mostly, but we certainly thought we were baaaad dudes: "Man, c'mon let's un-tuck our shirts and put masking tape over the word, 'root' on our root beer bottles") – a sense that we were darn near outlaws, men (boys, really) without rules, barely a code, to constrain our freedoms. Woo hoo, “We're back in the saddle again”.
Today, we’re mostly left with a deteriorating highway infrastructure that really can be dangerous, but driving cars that are, if nothing else, certainly very much less deadly but mostly without any gravitational pull. The fact that a KIA (fill in the blank) or Toyota (fill in the blank) is quicker, faster, safer, almost pollution free (by comparison), comfortable as can be and will have power everything, possibly GPS and probably AM, FM, and Satellite Radio, plus CD, Bluetooth and iPhone connectivity for the iPod function doesn’t forgive the allure that even in “SE” guise these appliances lack. I mean, really, my piece-of-crap VW Beetle had more allure than many of the things that pass as cars today possess – combined.
Not many of us care either, as a glance or even a stare out of your office window to the highway below can attest. The cars go by and perhaps one in fifty is worth another second or two of your gaze. In a few short years, certainly less than a decade, the cars will be driving themselves about 75% of the time, because no one gives a damn. The cars lack allure. We’re over them. If there were unlimited mass-transit "tubes" that you could hop in and out of on a whim, well hell, why bother at all to go for another new Mazda or Chevy or Ford or Dodge (fill in the blank)? Nothing to see here, move along, you’ve got homes, let’s get to ‘em.
Those of us on the entry level (or Premium class) luxury performance board here know about allure – FN’s trip to Europe driving a new BMW (his BMW, not a rental), now that’s what we should all aspire to. We’re again on the precipice. Again? Yep, we’re about to lose something we’ve always had – the sense that our cars are an extension of ourselves, hand-in-glove, everything’s possible (when we're in our cars). Gone, too, is the romance of the “little ride” with our parents or with our children. The thrill (of the next time I get to drive) is gone (one hopes not forever) for many. The romance, nay, the sex-appeal of sliding in behind the wheel of your new Chevy Caprice almost has no contemporary analogy except for those who allow themselves at least a $50,000 car purchase.
Does it really take $50,000 to get allure? And, if so, how did it come to this? My father was a 6th grade math teacher, my mom a librarian, almost all cars purchased were “previously owned” (there were only 2 exceptions out of all the cars they ever bought that I can recall), yet “my” cars, my piece-of-crap cars were alluring, exciting, almost thrilling. I contend it is not necessary to spend $50,000 or more for an alluring car. I also contend that there are few car companies that realize they are killing or perhaps already have killed their future customers' interest in their products by not building alluring cars at virtually every price point. [Frankly, KIA may be one of the few exceptions despite my inclusion re: non-alluring and comments above.]
Nice write-up @markcincinnati. As a stepfather to a 17 year old, I've found it interesting how the acquisition of a driver's license and a car for teenagers these days seems far less significant (or even desirable) these days. What used to signify freedom and the ability to spend time with friends at times seems more of a chore for "kids these days," who can simply "interact" with friends from the comfort of their own rooms via a screen.
And, to be fair, from the parents' point of view, and somewhat dependent on where you live, traffic congestion and road conditions create an environment that certainly makes me uncomfortable sending our teenagers out "cruising."
I agree there are plenty of alluring cars at all price levels. In fact, I think some of the most engaging vehicles are in the non-luxury, compact segment. Hence, my recent ownership of a Mazda3, replacing a mid-size luxury car.
Unfortunately, it seems the luxury makes have started reserving the sportier, more engaging experience for the upper-end niche sport models. Whereas previous models of a 328i could provide a very engaging drive (and a manual for that matter), it seems you have to step up to an M3 now to get something as dynamic.
So, ALL price levels? I don't know - I think there's something missing in the middle. Compacts such as my previous Mazda3, a Civic Si, WRX, the BRZ, etc. are certainly engaging. But if you want to combine that with more refinement and some of the luxury trappings we enjoy, you have to step up to the other end of the spectrum. Hence, my replacement of the Mazda3 with the S4.
I took a look, not a drive, a look, at the latest and greatest Mazda Miata which lists for a number beginning with a 2. Not sure I'd want a two seater (then again, if the kid and 3 or 4 of his friends can't get in all at once, maybe that would be less, er, distracting). But, the point is, this car seems to be ONE of the exceptions to the "no alluring cars" comments I made above. Also, there are a couple of VW's that seem to have some sizzle to them.
The thing is, it seems a lot of folks (of all ages) seem to think the market has very few noteworthy cars until the MSRP gets to a breathtaking number.
How is it possible for some to and most not? Perhaps we've come to a place where differentiation is either not appreciated nor demanded by the market.
The thrill (could be) is gone.
That I can go out and get an S4 or something else comparable is all well and good -- but overall the folks today, upcoming, seem to actually WANT to live in their rooms or their parent's basements.. For me, at age 16, I wanted to go see the world (within about a 25 mile radius at least), without mom and dad, and the car afforded me with that ability.
My wife, an attorney for a Fortune 1000 firm, and her attorney buddies even name their cars -- do 16, 17 18 year olds do that anymore?
I must admit, I find it refreshing to know that for some the thrill is alive and well.
My wife says (about her SQ5) ". . .every mile's a smile."
An oldie, but goodie: "They've paved paradise and put up a parking lot."
When my daughter was 17 and took over "my" Volvo (which was intended to be her car when we got it), she named it. And first thing she did when we replaced it with the VW was think up a new name for it.
she also couldn't wait to get a car, and loves to drive (the act, not just going someplace). Maybe she is a throwback? She did pick a college 8 hours away, and has zero expressed desire to move back in here long term after graduation!
My son is also majorly hooked now on German iron after getting his Jetta. got about 16 months left on his lease, and has already been researching the replacement (likely and A3, unless he gets a better paying job and springs for an S3!).
could also just be genetics at work? He did go to the car show every year since he was about 7 months old.
Comments
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
The locals in Prague, universally seem to speak, in this order, Russian, German, English and Czech (some also add another language, either French, Polish or Italian). So many folks, however, seem to have a first goto language.
My point in some previous posts was the contrast between citizens of various countries -- the French were rude (at least some were); initially, I would not automatically assume they would know if we were British or Americans -- all the menus use the British flag to indicate which part of the menu is in English. I don't recall ever seeing the American flag in any country on a menu to indicate English translation here. I rarely told anyone where I was from, unless asked -- which the folks at Oktoberfest in Munich seem keen to know.
I don't think anyone I've ever known who has been to Europe goes there with anything less than a sense of awe and wonder at the beauty of the countrysides, the diversity of the cities (knowing that they are not 200 years old, but multiple times 200 years old). I know of no one travelling to a European destination, who has anything but a desire for a vacation -- it has never occurred to me to think too much about WWII, while visiting a European country, for instance, other than my trips to Poland (Krakow, Warsaw) where we went to the concentration camps, the salt mines. Then there was the trip to see old Warsaw which was lovingly restored after it was virtually leveled during the war. Even Prague which does have some remnants of Soviet occupation, seems much more of the now, not the then, so to speak.
I have been to Germany and Italy the most, and I have been to German museums which do put history on display -- the good, the bad and the pure evil that we all have learned about. In Amsterdam, I went to Ann Frank's house, which was also presented, er, "objectively." Been to Checkpoint Charlie in Berlin, too -- went to the museum, which again put some very unpleasant things on display. But the trip to the Doges Palace in Venice with the torture devices on display, is also quite eye opening.
I don't recall any resentment of the US on display anywhere -- the museums didn't editorialize or express regret, anger or, hmm, je ne sais quoi. I saw nothing that would encourage an American to somehow believe in their superiority. There were, generally speaking, no ugly Americans -- or even ignorant ones as were depicted in the Hepburn movie, set in Venice, "Summertime."
Continuing . . .
Took a tour of the Maginot Line, and my tour guide -- French -- made fun of France for "how you say, a lame attempt to prevent the Germans from invading." We did smile at his attempt at humor, but again, most of my two dozen+ trips to Europe have been as a guest in the [whatever] country, and I was pleased to be able to be a guest, in fact, I often was humbled by the locals as they were multi-lingual, whereas I was only able to speak a little German (I took lessons for about three months back in the 20th Century). I expected very little out of the local folks I would interact with, other than a certain level of courtesy since they were, after all in the hospitality business; and I did not condescend to them.
Yet, go figure, the French sometimes seemed on the verge of being annoyed by our presence with the exception of those involved with customer service at very high buck restaurants and our hotel, the PARIS - LE GRAND ($500+ per night, 5 stars). BTW, the hotel is an oh wow experience. I loved it, but I would, knowing what I now know, never stay there again (since most of the time we were there, in our room, it was night and we were in the room with no lights on, sleeping; I can find a very nice place to sleep for less than half that amount (often 3 stars), in other words; if my goal was to just stay at the hotel, I might think differently, however.)
Anyway, FN has really come through for us all -- lots of great travel and adventure, great pics and of course some car talk. I, for one, would love to hear more about the car, the driving -- any positives, any surprises, overall impressions, any "I wish it did this" comments, etc. It is a BMW, after all, so I would expect it to do almost everything in fine fashion, but still. Hey FN, what features and options did you configure the thing with, and which ones are you most impressed by? Is this your first vehicle with Sat Nav, if not, how is BMW's interface in your opinion?
Back to some travel tips. . .
Far as I'm concerned, Paris should be on everyone's list -- at least once. I've been there several times and despite some surly service folks, I would go again in a heartbeat, even seeing the Mona Lisa, so far, has not gotten old. Darn thing is really tiny though.
Paris restaurant that I particularly enjoyed: the Jules Verne (in the Eiffel Tower):
http://www.lejulesverne-paris.com/en
It may be a bit touristy, but the food is to die from, er, for, I mean.
C'est la vie
GPS, it's interesting, give you an example, when we left Marseilles for Beaune, we programmed the new hotel into the GPS, We first used the address of the hotel, the GPS couldn't find it, so we used google and found it that way. At times the GPS gets confused (like some women when they drive) and the directional pointer on the Nav screen will just spin around and it's not giving me a direction in which to go. This has happened a couple of time far, I'm hoping that problem will go away once the car hits north american soil..
Lighting package, the 3 series get LED lights, we have Xenon, which are adaptive. The Auto High Beams are nice, I believe I can get the Euro High beams coded in the car, in which one of the high beams will go to normal lights and the other high beam stays on.
Heated Seats, haven't tried them out yet..
Side and Top Camera's, we have a 360 degree view of the outside of the car, cool feature.
Premium Package, I love the Comfort Access, lots of cool features can be coded into the car, but you have to have Comfort access to do it.
So all F3X cars have a toggle switch to go between Eco-Pro (boring setting, it's to help save gas) Comfort, Sport and Sport+, since we have the SAT (Sport Automatic Transmission standard BTW) we gained Sport+. Sport + allows for the some of the elec nannies to turned off or not interfere so quickly. Now my 320 has the same toggle switch, before I got my car "coded" to activate the SAT, when I would go from Comfort to sport the only thing that really changed was the throttle setting, it was more sensitive in sport. The GT with X drive handles wonderful, when we were in Lake Como, it was raining very hard, and at times I tried to get the car side ways, had it in Sport and it would not do it.
Sport Seats, I haven't had much time to play with them, they are comfortable but could use some more adjustments..
Over all I like the car, we went back and forth on getting the 328 or the 335, part of me wish's we got the 335i, it's all all about the power..
At the Welt, I sat in the rear seat, MAN talk about room, and the seat in front of me was positioned for me...
We are averaging 24 with the car, which I don't think it so bad since we are averaging about 90 on the highways..
The Drive today was to have taken 4 hours but ended up being 8.5, lots of traffic and a problem at one of the toll intersection...
Night all..
FN
At this point, it may be too soon for you to have reached the conclusion that we have, with respect to th around/top view cameras, but after living with my wife's Infiniti with that featire, it should be standard eqiupment (on all cars), I would imagine insurance claims and costs would decrease especially from parking lot fender-benders. Cool tech, IMO right up there with ESP and ABS.
Sounds like you have a super-nice Bimmer, congrats on that!
Frankly, to get this much interest and entertainment (to say nothing of the education/o
information) most folks would have to pay. Edmunds and you have essentially made this possible for free. What a deal!
Drive it like you live.
So we drove from Marseilles France to Beaune (pronounced Bone), France. So why Beanue, France, Beaune is the wine capital of Burgundy, all the top winery's are here, Rick is into wines, and he wanted to come here. The drive up took longer then expected. We ended up getting caught up in a traffic jam at one of the toll booth's, the machine wouldn't take people's credit cards... That was a mess.. The photos are few,
Typical small town/village in France
So you don't think I couldn't post a cool car photo. This car needs to be imported into the US, it's a CLS wagon, talk about Form over function, It is stunning in person.. This was the first one we saw parked, and had to take a photo of it.
Enjoy
The marketing mavens have rendered them evil here, so we get to deal with SUVs, SAVs, & LMNOPVs, and god knows what else because, well, the sheeple "like" them.
Oh boy.
So monday morning at 0900 on the dot a black Audi A8L pulls up and the driver, David, walks in and introduces himself to me, mind you, never meet the guy before. Introduces himself to Rick, and off we go.
Ok, this is how one travels around wine country in France. David was great, and if anyone wants his contact info, please let me know. He worked in a few wineries around Beaune, knows a lot of people, he was able to get us into all the wineries for free and in before the crowds arrived. Very knowledgeable person and personable.
First up was Chateau de Pommard
The tour was great, we were taken down below where the wine is stored, very interesting and educational.
After aging in the oak barrels then the wine is bottled, then stacked.
After the tour it was tasting time
Don't ask how much we bought... Interesting note, doesn't matter what winery we were at shipping cost to the US was the same...
This is a smaller family winery, however, they product some excellent wines.
It was harvest time in Burgundy so the grapes were flowing, we were shown around the winery by the owner and explained the whole process.
So many of us remember Lucy crushing grapes with her feet, well, they don't do that anymore, they have machines for that.
The machine rotates and crushes the grapes and the juice flows down.
Crushed grapes
Jucie from the crushed grapes, yeah look bad, but tasted good. Once they are done crushing the grapes, they are placed in huge vats and all the sediments settle to the bottom, this is done 3 times before the juice is places into oak barrels to ferment.
Here is a map of the area where the winery is at, each color represent different types of grapes, one thing I learned was, the vast acres of grape vine we saw, are not all owned by just one company. The map show inside the vineyards small sections with lines in them, that indicated what this winery owns, as you can tell they are scarred all over the place. This is how it is done in France.
Grapes that just arrived, and was picked about an hour before the photo was taken, yes, they were very sweet tasting.
Father and Son loading the crusher for next batch.
Next we stopped by one of the most famous and most expensive wine makers in the Burgundy region Romnee Conti average bottle of wine from this winery is $300 US. and no we didn't buy anything here..
Next we went to Chateau Du Clos De Vougeot, The Clos de Vougeot vineyard was created by Cistercian monks of Cîteaux Abbey in 12th century, this is the only vineyard that is "enclosed" by a rock wall, and that is still intact today as it was in the 12th century. I could go on about this place, but do a search on it, it's an amazing place.
Lastly we went to a very small winery, very interesting concept, the owner build a restaurant underground that features food and wine from the area.
He also has a small collection of "stuff"
Wine
More stuff
That was it for the tour, we were tired!! Had a great time and the A8L was awesome, I loved the message seat.. Now we get to wait for our wine to arrive.
Lastly off to Paris to drop the car off
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2018 430i Gran Coupe
We super slabbed it to CDG, nice thing about France is speed limit is 130Kph, which is about 80, But like any country people travel faster then that. I averaged 90mph. We arrived at CDG at 130pm, got he car washed, (US customs requires the car to be "clean." there is a carwash at CDG, 8 euro later car was clean. Now, if you have been to Paris you know he city is horrible to drive in, and the French are just crazy drivers (really look at their cars), however, the route I programmed took us to the outside of Paris and missed most of the traffic. About 30 minutes before getting to the airport, the windshield cracks, I did not hear a rock or something hit it. Luckily the insurance on the car (that BMW pays for) will replace it. We get to the drop off location of the car, sign the necessary paperwork, and we are done, we say good by to the car, wont see her for at least 2 weeks. Total 3127 K driven on this vacation.
Yes, there is a crack if you look in the middle of the photo
Farewell photo...
The Euro plates will stay on the car when it arrives at the Dealer, and the Dealer been instructed to leave the front plate on (AZ does not require a front plate.)
This trip was about bucket list items, so another one was to take the Eurostar to London, the company that we dropped the car off took us to Gare du Nord train startion which is in the heart of Paris, it was an interesting drive.. We made it in 40 minutes, lets just say the French just do not care who they piss off. We bought the tickets at the train station, and was on board minutes later, we got the last two seats together facing forward. When we got on the train, there was this french women sitting in one of our seats, the business class trains are set up with single seats on one side, and two seats on the other, the two seats are set up to seat facing each other, so two people facing the direction of travel and the other are not. We we arrived, in her very broken English she wanted us to take the other seats, we said no. We knew from the seat map when we bought the tickets 3 people were sitting here, not 4. Come to find out, she decided she didn't like her single seat, plus a friend of her was on the train and wanted our seats. so they can sit together. Now the other passenger arrives (older lady), then the cabin attendant. The single rider (older lady) sits where the young women was to have sat, but she was refusing to move, and wanted us to sit in the other seats. Rick doesn't like traveling backwards. We tell the cabin attended this and we wanted our original seats, the young women speak french (but I think she speaks English too) to the cabin attended, so we end up in this circle of language, I think look at the young women, and said, I knew you speak English, so stop playing games. I was right, she did, so she understood everything I was saying, which really pissed me off. So I told her that we wanted our seats we reserved, if she didn't like then go find another compartment to ride in. She refused to move, needless to day, she won to a point, we were just moved to the Business Select Premium cabin... Like I said before of the French, We can do this because we are French.. It's the attitude that really piss's me off.. Europstar trains and dirty, they are getting new trains, I hope they have WIFI...
We arrived in London about 7pm, Ricks friends picked us up and took us out to dinner, then to our hotel.
Conclusion
The whole trip we talked about how this car will invoke memories as long as we have it. This is really the only way to buy a car, BMW will allow you to keep your trade in until your car arrives, I'm sure Audi and MB will do the same thing. The only difference on our next one, in the fall of 2017, we wont visit to many cities...
Have been home now 6 days, and just got over the Jet Lag....
I'll call tomorrow and find out where the car is and if it has been assigned a ship yet, once I know the shipping line and name of the ship, we can track it's location...
Presumably, the S4 will be longer and wider, so perhaps the size, not the HP will mitigate and dilute the temptation to cross shop. Or perhaps the RS3 will be priced out of reach compared to the S4. Now, then, this makes me wonder if Audi may think it needs a non-avant RS4 to go up against BMW and Mercedes high zoot models (now that the RS5 is gone).
If history is repeated, the new S4 will not take a breathtaking leap up in MSRP, but will take more than an evolutionary leap in content and refinement.
2017 (calendar) could be a very exciting year indeed.
I have not been on this board recently
[ not in the market in the near future ]
and read several of your BMW ED
posts - thanks for posting.
Reminds me of the 2011 BMW ED
trip with my daughter.
- Ray
Enjoy the car when it reaches you - again!
-Turbo 3.0 V6 (no more supercharger), 354 HP, 369 lb/ft, available from 1,300 RPM to 4,500 RPM.
-6 speed manual (maybe), but most will get an 8 speed auto (no DSG) with a Torque Converter.
-weighs in at 3594 lbs.
-40:60 torque split front to back with standard Quattro
-expected starting price of $50K
If this is true, Audi should really just make the S4 with a CVT and call it a day since that would suit the customers this move is intended to impress.
If the manual was made available, and my '14 S4 was totaled in the near future (hope not, but hypothetically speaking), the lack of a DSG option would make me get the 6-speed manual if available, if I was getting another new S4.
Otherwise, hello Golf R!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
Given that both hardware and software components are in a state of constant revision, I can share some observations from the perspective of one who has a 2014 SQ5 (8-speed Tip) and a 2014 S4 (7-speed DSG) in captivity.
The programming of the Tip makes it the best iteration of the "slush" transmission -- as someone called it -- I've ever driven. The DSG is the smoothest transmission I've ever driven in that, when left in auto shift mode, the shifts are basically heard, not felt. I know the transmission has up-shifted by ear and by virtue of the drop of the tach needle, but the progression in feeling is unlike traditional torque converter auto transmissions and unlike manual transmissions. Both the Tip and the manual transmissions have a momentary disruption of forward momentum when the transmission decides to shift or when the driver depresses the clutch -- watching from the side, when either one of these transmissions is up-shifted, the heads of the driver and a front-seat passenger are momentarily "thrown" forward at the moment of the depression of the clutch or up-shift of the auto -- there is no such throwing or lurching with the DSG -- in fact in that ONE aspect, I would think the DSG could be said to be somewhat like a CVT. Somewhat, not much, but a little "somewhat."
Downshifting, again, is an area where the DSG excels -- when in full auto-mode "S"port shifting program, the DSG transmission rev matches to the imminent downshift and the "second" clutch engages with virtually no kick. Only a manual transmission even comes close to this, but having said that, the DSG is so much smoother on a rev-matching down shift it isn't even close.
Now, I've driven the S4 (DSG), SQ5 (Tip) and S6 (DSG) equipped cars -- of the three, two of them are just that little bit better in terms of their shifting prowess and smoothness. Again, with all of the above subtleties stated for the record, it is apparent that someone at Audi (or whoever writes the software) has done everything they can to make virtually all of the "dead giveaways" that you are driving a Tip as invisible and imperceptible as possible. In short, unless you're really looking for HARD EVIDENCE that the SQ5 isn't a DSG, you might not really notice the SQ5 is not a DSG. Over time and with the availability (as I have) of two very very similar cars to drive back-to-back for comparison, well, you probably would be able to discern the subtle differences between the DSG and the Tip.
At this stage of my own posterior meter, I can tell the difference between the DSG and the Tip -- the Tip, NOT the DSG has some hint of drivability issues and even placing the Tip in "S" all of the time doesn't completely wipe out the ever-so-slight shift hesitation and shift lurch behaviors, although you really have to be paying attention to notice them.
I have not (yet) driven an RS7 -- frankly because I just don't think it is worth $120,000 (even if I had millions in the check book to do with as I please). I also don't think an S7 is worth $10,000 more than an S6 just for the body style. But I'm also the guy who resents an extra charge for "paint" beyond gloss black or gloss white.
I bring the RS7 up, not to reveal my proclivities and, er, cheapness for things such as pearl paint colors, but to remind anyone who needs to know, that Audi puts the very specially programmed 8-speed Tip in the RS7. Several reviews of the car noted their assumption that the RS7 transmission was another very fine implementation of the DSG; and, then, noting later in their review how virtually imperceptible the Tip is from the DSG as executed in the RS7.
Under full throttle in dynamic mode, both our S4 and SQ5 are prodigious accelerative forces of nature -- both of them emit the joyful "PHLTTTBBB" (aka fart sound) upon up-shift and when in S mode have quick paddle shift moves (but paddle-shifts are just a smidge quicker in the DSG, however).
Again, were the Audi folk to gift me (fat chance) a 2017 MY S4 Prestige 8-speed Tip with a torque vectoring rear differential and with red leather seats, I would be a happy man. Of course, this is based on my assumption that the hardware and especially the shifting software of the 2017 S4 Tip had continued to move it even closer to the characteristics of a DSG (which appears to be the programmers goal).
I have heard that the BMW implementation of the dual-clutch auto did indeed have driveability issues -- but I have only heard that the Audi and Porsche implementation and programming of the DSG have few, if any, critics.
What are the Audi DSG transmission issues?
And, why, if the DSG is not a fun, friendly transmission for daily driving, do they (the mfgrs) keep making the programming of the Tip versions as close to the feeling of a DSG as possible?
I'm afraid this change has nothing to do with drive-ability or consumer feedback, but simply a bean counter telling Audi they can make xxx $$$ more per car by using a cheap transmission rather than the best but pricey DSG. This bean counter is in for a rude awakening when sales plummet. The new R8 gets Audi's best dual clutch transmission, so they have figured out how to make it work in very high HP and torque heavy monsters.
I think the review above comparing the very good 8-speed auto to DSG will echo a lot of other people's reviews of the ZF-8 speed tiptronic. It is good, but not quite as good as DSG. Progress going the wrong direction. Perhaps the mid-cycle refresh will correct the mistake, or it is Audi's way of raising the carrot to make people purchase the RS4 to get the right transmission.
You know, other than the red paint looking terrible in 10 rather than 20 years, I'm not worried about the shoddy repair work anymore. The car has remained uber-reliable other than that one leaky coolant hose someone in Escondido, CA was probably responsible for.
I haven't found anything other than a loose child seat hook bracket cover to take it back in for warranty; I need something else to go wrong so I don't waste my time over a little black plastic trim piece in the back seat. I think at the track the other weekend with temps as high as 109 degrees I cooked the bright red S4 badge paint on the brake calipers, maybe I can claim "finish paint" warranty on it and get new calipers
Being so reliable, I think I'll keep mine until it gives me reason to not do so, especially since it has been proven at least one S4 that @graphic_guy had was troublesome.
At the end of the day, I made my decision based on "one last go" with the manual. I appreciate that Audi still offers it on the outgoing model, and thought I'd take advantage of it. That was a significant reason why I don't have too much heartache over buying a model that I knew would be replaced in the short-term.
I suspect the manual won't be offered on the new model. When the S3 isn't offered with it, and they just took it away from the R8, I can't imagine why Audi would choose to offer it on the S4.
In any case, if I were to upgrade to the new model in the future, I don't think the 8-speed tip would deter me. I've had similar transmissions in previous cars (535, X3) and thought they were great.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
If the 8-speed is a light unit; that's one consideration, but being 8-speeds; find it hard to believe the weight savings came from the tranny. Heard it's 254 lbs. lighter than the outgoing model; that's good progress! However, they made it even bigger, which makes me wonder if they could have shaved an additional 100 lbs keeping it the same size.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/frankfurt-preview-2017-audi-s4-89670.html
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
One can only hope you are correct. The DSG, of course, that I would expect would be the latest and greatest 7-speed DSG such as is offered as the optional (to the manual) transmission on the current S4. The press releases I have seen and have translated, however, claim the S4 will have the 8-speed Tip. Current A4 2.0T models come with the 8-speed Tip, but NOT the DSG 7-speed. Now, then, however, therefore, notwithstanding:
The current iteration of the S3 ONLY comes with a DSG transmission -- a 6-speed version. I assume there are factors that impact what is and what can be, but I have to assume the 7-speed DSG is heavier than the 6-speed DSG. What I don't know is if the 8-speed Tip is lighter than the 7-speed DSG, however.
I see no logic (marketing logic, which is as opposed to 'real' logic) in Audi offering US customers the A4 with a 6-speed DSG since most of the A4's sold in the US the past few years have been 8-speed Tips. I assume the number of takers on FWD A4's in the US is quite small, so for practical purposes, I will exclude them from my following remarks.
Many of those in the market (for an Audi A4) for the first time, are probably cross shoppers, shopping against BMW, Mercedes and perhaps even Acura, Infiniti and Lexus. In a world where "more is better," I can only assume a new Audi A4 will receive a ding if it doesn't offer at least as many speeds as the cars it competes with. BMW 3's will soldier on with 8-speed ZF sourced transmissions, Acura will have, what, a NINE speed transmission? Mercedes 7-speed, Infiniti 7-speed, who knows if Lexus will, for the 2017 MY offer 6, 7, 8 or more speed automatics -- they've been having 6-speed units on the AWD versions and 8-speeds on the RWD cars, so, perhaps they have or will soon be upgrading to all 8-speeds or, who knows even more speeds?
The new shopper will HAVE to consider number of gears as a data point and if, for some reason, Audi chose to offer 6-speeds (DSG or not) while the other guys had 7, 8 or 9 speed units, I would think there would be some logic to the buyer saying, "MORE is BETTER, so Audi is now not at the top of my list."
I have not seen any evidence, and boo hoo (no sarcasm), it certainly appears that the DSG 7-speed will no longer be offered on the B9 Audis.
The only good news is that the 8-speed Tiptronic hardware and most especially software does continue to improve by imitating the DSG via a very expertly developed shift program. Said it before, I'm at least OK with the 8-speed Tip since it remains the best torque converter automatic I've yet driven.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
Our “highways” – well not all of our highways, roads and streets – used to be something most of us looked forward to embarking upon in our cars – even in what for most of us in hindsight were piece-of-crap cars; e.g., my first car – one of mom and dad’s two cars – was an early ‘60’s vintage VW beetle (the thing didn’t even have a gas gauge). Shortly after I got my license and had pretty much resigned myself to driving a 36HP stick shift car with a fabric sunroof and AM radio and a sort-of heater, dad traded "up" (?) for a Plymouth Valiant with a slant-6 engine and a “three on the tree” stick shift (and first gear was not synchronized). This four-door “babe repellent” also had an AM radio, but it was also equipped with factory A/C – which seemed odd for an otherwise stripped of all creature comforts vehicle.
I loved these cars – I knew they were pieces-of-crap, but I blocked that from my thoughts since these cars gave me freedom, tunes (on the AM) and what felt like unlimited mobility to drive from my bucolic and very sleepy, very little town (pop. 2,700 assuming everyone was home) north of Dayton, Ohio, to the big city (Dayton, if you’re wondering is still just barely a city in my opinion). Truth of the matter is that I rarely needed to drive the 50 mile round trip to Dayton, nor could I regularly afford the 50₵ worth of Clark’s premium gas (Clark only sold premium gas at that time, if you’re wondering) required for such an adventurous outing.
Today, in contrast, our highways and byways now no longer symbolize [much] freedom, rather they are often seen as barriers to freedom:
“Well I left my job about 5 o'clock, it took fifteen minutes go three blocks,
Just in time to stand in line with a freeway looking like a parking lot.
Damn this traffic jam, how I hate to be late, it hurts my motor to go so slow.
Damn this traffic jam, time I get home my supper'll be cold, damn this traffic jam.”
James Taylor
When my 16 year-old-self got behind the wheel, it was darn near magical, the car was a mechanical being, to be sure, but somehow I was able to anthropomorphize my steed (really, a 36HP VW Beetle was a steed, no kidding) – it became an extension of me, I was no longer driving a machine, I was driving art, it was so cool it was hot. Crank up the single-speaker AM radio until it distorted and back off the volume a quarter turn and carefully balance the “tone control” to pump out all the bass that piece-of-crap speaker could muster.
Everything was possible.
Now, I have to admit, as much as the VW Beetle was not exactly a babe magnet, well the Valiant was truly a babe repellent, even though I figured out how to double clutch the thing to make certain I didn’t “grind a pound” every time I shifted to first-gear. Even so, the Valiant still represented possibilities and made promises to me (that it virtually never kept, I must admit).
Still, everything was possible (in cars).
Sundays, dad always would say “Let’s go for a little ride”. Off we’d go: Mom, dad and me in the other family car, the ’63 Chrysler Newport with push-button transmission, power steering and power brakes and both front and rear AM radio speakers. This one had aftermarket A/C even though dad bought it brand new from the next not-as-little town over Chrysler-Plymouth dealer. Ah, a big V8 and torsion-quiet ride, big whitewalls, bias-ply tires and full wheel covers – chrome everywhere – bling! Someday this will be mine I thought.
This car would be a babe magnet, I was sure of it.
Today, some of us, probably most of us, have lost that sense of possibility when we get behind the wheel, after all most Americans are getting into appliances, machines that simply cannot be anthropomorphized; and we’re getting to roads that allow movement like a pig through a python. In fact, if the 16-year-old's on my street are any indication, the future drivers aren’t even interested in driving until mom and dad make them by telling them “We’re not going to continue being your taxi service any more”.
Then, the automobile gave us a sense of excitement, perhaps danger (benign danger, mostly, but we certainly thought we were baaaad dudes: "Man, c'mon let's un-tuck our shirts and put masking tape over the word, 'root' on our root beer bottles") – a sense that we were darn near outlaws, men (boys, really) without rules, barely a code, to constrain our freedoms. Woo hoo, “We're back in the saddle again”.
Today, we’re mostly left with a deteriorating highway infrastructure that really can be dangerous, but driving cars that are, if nothing else, certainly very much less deadly but mostly without any gravitational pull. The fact that a KIA (fill in the blank) or Toyota (fill in the blank) is quicker, faster, safer, almost pollution free (by comparison), comfortable as can be and will have power everything, possibly GPS and probably AM, FM, and Satellite Radio, plus CD, Bluetooth and iPhone connectivity for the iPod function doesn’t forgive the allure that even in “SE” guise these appliances lack. I mean, really, my piece-of-crap VW Beetle had more allure than many of the things that pass as cars today possess – combined.
Not many of us care either, as a glance or even a stare out of your office window to the highway below can attest. The cars go by and perhaps one in fifty is worth another second or two of your gaze. In a few short years, certainly less than a decade, the cars will be driving themselves about 75% of the time, because no one gives a damn. The cars lack allure. We’re over them. If there were unlimited mass-transit "tubes" that you could hop in and out of on a whim, well hell, why bother at all to go for another new Mazda or Chevy or Ford or Dodge (fill in the blank)? Nothing to see here, move along, you’ve got homes, let’s get to ‘em.
Those of us on the entry level (or Premium class) luxury performance board here know about allure – FN’s trip to Europe driving a new BMW (his BMW, not a rental), now that’s what we should all aspire to. We’re again on the precipice. Again? Yep, we’re about to lose something we’ve always had – the sense that our cars are an extension of ourselves, hand-in-glove, everything’s possible (when we're in our cars). Gone, too, is the romance of the “little ride” with our parents or with our children. The thrill (of the next time I get to drive) is gone (one hopes not forever) for many. The romance, nay, the sex-appeal of sliding in behind the wheel of your new Chevy Caprice almost has no contemporary analogy except for those who allow themselves at least a $50,000 car purchase.
Does it really take $50,000 to get allure? And, if so, how did it come to this? My father was a 6th grade math teacher, my mom a librarian, almost all cars purchased were “previously owned” (there were only 2 exceptions out of all the cars they ever bought that I can recall), yet “my” cars, my piece-of-crap cars were alluring, exciting, almost thrilling. I contend it is not necessary to spend $50,000 or more for an alluring car. I also contend that there are few car companies that realize they are killing or perhaps already have killed their future customers' interest in their products by not building alluring cars at virtually every price point. [Frankly, KIA may be one of the few exceptions despite my inclusion re: non-alluring and comments above.]
Now where did I put the keys to that Valiant?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
And, to be fair, from the parents' point of view, and somewhat dependent on where you live, traffic congestion and road conditions create an environment that certainly makes me uncomfortable sending our teenagers out "cruising."
I agree there are plenty of alluring cars at all price levels. In fact, I think some of the most engaging vehicles are in the non-luxury, compact segment. Hence, my recent ownership of a Mazda3, replacing a mid-size luxury car.
Unfortunately, it seems the luxury makes have started reserving the sportier, more engaging experience for the upper-end niche sport models. Whereas previous models of a 328i could provide a very engaging drive (and a manual for that matter), it seems you have to step up to an M3 now to get something as dynamic.
So, ALL price levels? I don't know - I think there's something missing in the middle. Compacts such as my previous Mazda3, a Civic Si, WRX, the BRZ, etc. are certainly engaging. But if you want to combine that with more refinement and some of the luxury trappings we enjoy, you have to step up to the other end of the spectrum. Hence, my replacement of the Mazda3 with the S4.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
The thing is, it seems a lot of folks (of all ages) seem to think the market has very few noteworthy cars until the MSRP gets to a breathtaking number.
How is it possible for some to and most not? Perhaps we've come to a place where differentiation is either not appreciated nor demanded by the market.
The thrill (could be) is gone.
That I can go out and get an S4 or something else comparable is all well and good -- but overall the folks today, upcoming, seem to actually WANT to live in their rooms or their parent's basements.. For me, at age 16, I wanted to go see the world (within about a 25 mile radius at least), without mom and dad, and the car afforded me with that ability.
My wife, an attorney for a Fortune 1000 firm, and her attorney buddies even name their cars -- do 16, 17 18 year olds do that anymore?
I must admit, I find it refreshing to know that for some the thrill is alive and well.
My wife says (about her SQ5) ". . .every mile's a smile."
An oldie, but goodie: "They've paved paradise and put up a parking lot."
she also couldn't wait to get a car, and loves to drive (the act, not just going someplace). Maybe she is a throwback? She did pick a college 8 hours away, and has zero expressed desire to move back in here long term after graduation!
My son is also majorly hooked now on German iron after getting his Jetta. got about 16 months left on his lease, and has already been researching the replacement (likely and A3, unless he gets a better paying job and springs for an S3!).
could also just be genetics at work? He did go to the car show every year since he was about 7 months old.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.