Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

stickguy

well. could be something interesting to consider in 2 years when my Sonata goes back!

sweendogy

Flight nice color combo with the tints look sharp - how bout some shots of the boot

roadburner

My dealer took in a 2012 135i M Sport(LeMans Blue/Alaska Gray) with most every option- including DCT- unfortunately. It is CPO, however and has only 12k miles on it. May yet look at it, but right now the '15 STI is still at the top of my list...

Mr_Shiftright

Not the first automaker to make a claim against BMW 3-series crown. We'll see....................

flightnurse

More photo to follow. The 1 series just looked too odd to me, the 2 series I can live with

Sandman6472

And I prefer the 1 Series because I like a small vehicle. Saw one in blue that looked really nice but white really is the perfect color for this vehicle. Looks very sharp in white. Would truthfully like one of those after i trade the Golf down the road. Really is the perfect size for me and prefer a two door vehicle now. And by then, all the chicks will have flown the nest so affording one won't be an issue. Might as well enjoy ourselves in retirement and leave them all a little less!!

The Sandman

roadburner

The proportions of the 1er are a bit odd, but I find it to be an entertaining drive(DCT notwithstanding). The 2er is a nicely styled car, but so far I've been extremely underwhelmed behind the wheel.

flightnurse

I ordered a BMS stage 1 for Ricks 328i and it arrived Friday, even though I have been under the weather, I spent a whole 20 minutes installing it. It made a big difference with my 320, it really has made a HUGE difference in Ricks 328i. According to BMS the stage 1 increases 40 HP, and 50lbs of torque I do not doubt that.

carnaught

FN, does it affect one's warranty?

nyccarguy

carnaught said:

FN, does it affect one's warranty?

Yes

flightnurse

carnaught said:

FN, does it affect one's warranty?

It could if BMW would find the modification is the cause of the issue, however, the BMS makes less HP then the Dinan upgrade. I've had it on my car not for two years without problem, and so far I haven't read anyone having problems with it in their BMWs.

Mr_Shiftright

There's probably an effect over time, since there is more stress on components from both increased HP and no doubt, more aggressive driving, but maybe that just means a new X part at 80K rather than 100K. Seems like a low risk item, and BMW owners have confidence in Berger. Naturally, they sell this tune only for offroad use only and won't ship to California of course. It would be interesting to measure how much "dirtier" your engine becomes. They're basically messing with boost, timing and mixture, so it must affect emissions in some respects.

Seems like a bargain if you're only paying $10 per 1 HP. Think of what some people spend to get 100 more HP--a lot more than $1,000 bucks.

flightnurse

Mr_Shiftright said:

There's probably an effect over time, since there is more stress on components from both increased HP and no doubt, more aggressive driving, but maybe that just means a new X part at 80K rather than 100K. Seems like a low risk item, and BMW owners have confidence in Berger. Naturally, they sell this tune only for offroad use only and won't ship to California of course. It would be interesting to measure how much "dirtier" your engine becomes. They're basically messing with boost, timing and mixture, so it must affect emissions in some respects.

Seems like a bargain if you're only paying $10 per 1 HP. Think of what some people spend to get 100 more HP--a lot more than $1,000 bucks.

Dinan get about 50 more HP and charge $1500... Steve Dinan stated that BMW engines are good to about 15% more HP without putting added stress on the engine. But their tune add's much more then 15%.

Mr_Shiftright

That sounds about right, and he should know. No "tune" is for free, something has to be given away.

kyfdx

@Mr_Shiftright

No "tune" is for free, something has to be given away

It's amazing how hard that is to grasp.

dino001

kyfdx said:

@Mr_Shiftright

No "tune" is for free, something has to be given away

It's amazing how hard that is to grasp.

You mean I can't put 200 hp blower, race it every weekend and expect the engine and transmission last for million miles? What an outrage

roadburner

Steve's license is always hanging by a thread; I think he has taken every traffic school offered in California. Satch knows a few good stories about him...

flightnurse

roadburner said:

Steve's license is always hanging by a thread; I think he has taken every traffic school offered in California. Satch knows a few good stories about him...

There is another Steve in Calif who builds cars for Ford and uses Fords engines in his cars that has a license issue.

flightnurse

dino001 said:

You mean I can't put 200 hp blower, race it every weekend and expect the engine and transmission last for million miles? What an outrage

Well I am entitled to do that AND have BMW pay for the repairs.

roadburner

flightnurse said:

There is another Steve in Calif who builds cars for Ford and uses Fords engines in his cars that has a license issue.

My son and I met Steve Saleen at a car show several years ago; a really nice guy- he autographed several posters and brochures for my son.

nyccarguy

carnaught said:

FN, does it affect one's warranty?

I distinctly remember having this discussion before. @flightnurse also has his 320i "chipped." It is definitely an issue that varies from dealer to dealer. If you've got a service department that is enthusiast friendly than you should be OK. If your dealership's service department is a "by the book czar," then they will find the 6 degrees of separation between your leaking wiper fluid tank and your chip. Once they figure it out, they will void your warranty.

Unfortunately I think part of it is the litigious society we live in today. BMW is very specific about not wanting its customers to modify its vehicles in any way. This includes everything from chips to tires. BMW or its dealerships don't want to be liable.

flightnurse

nyccarguy said:

carnaught said:

FN, does it affect one's warranty?

I distinctly remember having this discussion before. @flightnurse also has his 320i "chipped." It is definitely an issue that varies from dealer to dealer. If you've got a service department that is enthusiast friendly than you should be OK. If your dealership's service department is a "by the book czar," then they will find the 6 degrees of separation between your leaking wiper fluid tank and your chip. Once they figure it out, they will void your warranty.

Unfortunately I think part of it is the litigious society we live in today. BMW is very specific about not wanting its customers to modify its vehicles in any way. This includes everything from chips to tires. BMW or its dealerships don't want to be liable.

Brad you are missing the point, BMW knows that people will chip their cars and have a safety net built in regarding added HP. I do not think the BMS stage 1 will cause the engine to be less reliable then a stock engine. I have 38K miles on my 320i and ever have had an engine issue or code thrown. OF course there are those with 320i's who are really pushing those engines making upwards of 300hp. I would assume that BMW, Audi and any manufacture with a turbo engine would assume a certain percentage of owners would "chip" their cars to get the extra HP from them. If they don't, then they aren't being realistic.

Mr_Shiftright

There comes a time in the quest for HP when, if you want a faster car, you should go out and buy a faster car.

nyccarguy

@flightnurse - I completely understand what you are saying. There are those like yourself who want a little extra oomph (I drive a 175 hp 4cyl Legacy daily so I know about needing and wanting extra oomph), and those that modify the car within an inch of its life. I really don't think BMW wants owners modifying their cars in any way. They don't even want owners checking their own oil with a dipstick for cryin' out loud.

Going with what @Mr_Shiftright said, did you price out a 328i similarly equipped to your 320i? Now that you have Rick's 328xi GT back stateside, have you driven the 2 cars back to back? Do you plan to keep your 320i for the long haul or will you start looking once the end of the 50K warranty is coming near?

I hope you don't think I'm trying to pick a fight with you. I'm honestly curious to your mindset. I'm completely neurotic when it comes to "pushing the envelope" with certain things. I KNOW I'd be the guy that gets caught & has to fight not to get my warranty voided.

Just as an example, this past Saturday night my wife & I took our 3 kids to an AHL (minor league) hockey game. We always get the kids something to eat when we go to an event, but we do like to bring our own juice, water, & snacks so we don't spend a car payment on concessions. My wife brings a bag in, holding our daughter & gets waved right through. My bag gets searched thoroughly & a few bottles of water as well as bags of chips get tossed before I walk in.

flightnurse

Mr_Shiftright said:

There comes a time in the quest for HP when, if you want a faster car, you should go out and buy a faster car.

I made a mistake when I bought my 320i, I should have gotten a 328i. Listen learned... I almost pulled a trigger on a BMW Loaner, basically it was a fully loaded 328i, M Sport, Tech, DHP, Premium, Drivers Assistance package, heated seats. It only had 4K miles on it, MSRP was 52K, final sale price was $44K, but I would have had to roll about 9K into the deal, lease payments would have been about 576/m with zero out of pocket. decided not to do it. I'll tough it out until Oct 2017 when we a another ED. I like the M2, but I think it will be small, I'm hoping that BMW will build a M4 Grand Coupe for 2018, if not then a 440i Grand Coupe it shall be, with the MPPK, and MPE, which makes more HP then the BMW stage 1.

flightnurse

nyccarguy said:

Going with what @Mr_Shiftright said, did you price out a 328i similarly equipped to your 320i? Now that you have Rick's 328xi GT back stateside, have you driven the 2 cars back to back? Do you plan to keep your 320i for the long haul or will you start looking once the end of the 50K warranty is coming near?

.

Yes, before I put the BMS on Rick's 328, I did back to back rides, and even though the GT is heavier it felt faster. Now that the GT has the BMS, it is much faster then my 320i.

sweendogy

Couple of things what is BMS? (My wife gets the other MS monthly)
In my eyes BMW has the right to void any warrantee - certainly on leased cars because they make mucho duckets on the used market - I get that.

@Mr_Shiftright has a point here - if you can afford the extra payment go for power. BMW offers "el cheapo" to get people in the door. Real enthusiasts will pay more for 328 or 333 or even m cars.

Mr_Shiftright

Factory engineers have to compromise to give consumers a streetable package, decent MPG, good longevity, and a car that passes all emissions requirements. If they could just chip a car and give it a large HP boost over the competition, they would have done it. Obviously they didn't for some reasons related to the above parameters.

roadburner

I think that a "real enthusiast" who isn't a horsepower junkie might buy a properly equipped 320i- but I'll concede that probably 99% of 320i buyers are "lease to wear" poseur/dweebs.
BMS= Burger Motorsports; their JB4 Performance Tuner is a very well regarded piece of equipment in the BMW community.

stickguy

count the pedals. That will help weed them out.

roadburner

stickguy said:

count the pedals. That will help weed them out.

Yep...

markcincinnati

Used to Be a Pet Peeve, Now Just Confusing

I used to represent these remarks:

I participate some, but read at lot of postings on Audiworld. I read the posts of folks who seem to research and often agonize over the new Audi they have or are about to order.

Then, as time passes, their new prize possessions arrive and they take pictures of their soon to be delivered rides -- they post them and seem to beam with pride about the new car they have acquired.

Next, pictures of the new cars in the owner's driveways or garages are posted -- and the captions on these pics are "Let the Mods Begin."

Later, the details of the aftermarket wheels, tires, engine management chips, breathing management aids and even brake rotors are detailed along with the window tinting expenses and, sometimes, even elaborate retrofitting of navigation systems to cars not factory equipped with nav systems are laid out, including the sometimes breathtaking costs required to add such features aftermarket.

In some cases the modifications involve the suspension systems, exhaust systems and underhood plumbing (for the super or turbo chargers) too.

The expenses seem to have no ceiling -- and as soon as one is completed, the next improvement is lusted after in print on the Audiworld forum for that particular model.

Often, so it seems, these mods exceed the costs of simply ordering the cars with the factory upgrade. I mean, really, I have seen folks mod their A4 SLines so much that they reach and sometimes surpass the MSRPs of the car so lusted after, the S4.

The mods that make the A4 have more power often will void the warranty. The S4, stock, comes with a very nice warranty.

Why buy a nearly $50K A4 and mod the crap out of it so that you have more than the cost of an unmodded S4 in it, knowing that the S4 is likely to outperform the modded A4?

Is the joy of modding the joy? If a stock S4 can be had for about the same cost as a modded A4 (which then loses its warranty) what in the wide wide world of sports would posses someone to do this?

BTW, I said, it takes one to know one -- but I must admit, my modding was limited to a chip put into an Audi turbo engine for a total cost well under $1000. But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

Color me confused.

qbrozen

stickguy said:

count the pedals. That will help weed them out.

That just doesn't apply anymore, otherwise I am a poseur because I bought my 135i with the auto to get around the track faster.

kyfdx

qbrozen said:

stickguy said:

count the pedals. That will help weed them out.

That just doesn't apply anymore, otherwise I am a poseur because I bought my 135i with the auto to get around the track faster.

No one thinks the rules apply to them..

stickguy

Taking it on a racetrack also counts as not "wearing" the car.

roadburner

I wasn't agreeing about automatics in general, it was only with respect to 320i buyers. I'm always reminded of the idiot I met at my dealer's F30 intro party. Some of us were talking about the F30's potential track capability and one poor fool chimed in to say that he would never take a car to the track, because he works too hard keeping it clean. He went on to say the reason he wanted an automatic was because "I want to be able to get in the car and not have to think about anything."

flightnurse

Mr_Shiftright said:

Factory engineers have to compromise to give consumers a streetable package, decent MPG, good longevity, and a car that passes all emissions requirements. If they could just chip a car and give it a large HP boost over the competition, they would have done it. Obviously they didn't for some reasons related to the above parameters.

I agree to a point, however, BMW offers factory performance upgrades, I'm sure BMS and others do the same thing these factory upgrades do, more boost, timing, fuel/air mixture.

flightnurse

roadburner said:

I think that a "real enthusiast" who isn't a horsepower junkie might buy a properly equipped 320i- but I'll concede that probably 99% of 320i buyers are "lease to wear" poseur/dweebs.
BMS= Burger Motorsports; their JB4 Performance Tuner is a very well regarded piece of equipment in the BMW community.

The Sport Package on the 320i is really a great package, give you all the suspension parts , seats, and steering wheel (M Sport) wheels and tires plus for the first time the 320i can be had with the M Sport Adjustable suspension, this is part of the track package. When it comes to leasing, a 328i with the same packages as the 320i, will lease for less money or slightly more. So the 328i over all is a better value.

dino001

flightnurse said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Factory engineers have to compromise to give consumers a streetable package, decent MPG, good longevity, and a car that passes all emissions requirements. If they could just chip a car and give it a large HP boost over the competition, they would have done it. Obviously they didn't for some reasons related to the above parameters.

I agree to a point, however, BMW offers factory performance upgrades, I'm sure BMS and others do the same thing these factory upgrades do, more boost, timing, fuel/air mixture.

But some people want to have it just the way it is - for them this mix of performance, reliability and gas mileage is just right, not some chipped stuff. Want more performance (power, suspension), less mileage, more wear (on tires, brakes) and lower factor of safety, got pay up, plain and simple.

Mr_Shiftright

Exactly...if you order mods from BMW, you are making a choice about what you are getting and what you might be giving up.

flightnurse

dino001 said:

But some people want to have it just the way it is - for them this mix of performance, reliability and gas mileage is just right, not some chipped stuff. Want more performance (power, suspension), less mileage, more wear (on tires, brakes) and lower factor of safety, got pay up, plain and simple.

ANd people want more, so your point is?

When it comes to Chipped stuff, I get the same MPG as I did before I chipped my 320i, same reliability, so again your point?

roadburner

flightnurse said:

When it comes to Chipped stuff, I get the same MPG as I did before I chipped my 320i, same reliability, so again your point?

Count me in as one who modifies their cars and who has yet to find a down side(with the exception of my first car, where I added a cam with about ten degrees too much duration). My M6 received a Dinan chip while my Club Sport has a Turner/Conforti chip; it has over 140k on it. My MS3 makes over 60 hp more than stock via a Mazdaspeed intake and a Hypertech tune- and it has 157k on it.
I guess I must lead an infinitely charmed life...

dino001

flightnurse said:

dino001 said:

But some people want to have it just the way it is - for them this mix of performance, reliability and gas mileage is just right, not some chipped stuff. Want more performance (power, suspension), less mileage, more wear (on tires, brakes) and lower factor of safety, got pay up, plain and simple.

ANd people want more, so your point is?

When it comes to Chipped stuff, I get the same MPG as I did before I chipped my 320i, same reliability, so again your point?

You say that, but yor statement violates basic principles of engineering. You essentially say you found a way to get something for nothing, no energy in, more energy out, by a wave of a wand. I wish I could do it in structural design, but I can't.

roadburner

dino001 said:

You say that, but yor statement violates basic principles of engineering. You essentially say you found a way to get something for nothing, no energy in, more energy out, by a wave of a wand. I wish I could do it in structural design, but I can't.

My MS3 gets the same mileage as it did prior to installing the tune; there's no magic involved- the tune modifies the ignition advance, fueling, and boost primarily at higher rpm and throttle openings. At cruise the car is running on what is essentially the stock map, with perhaps a bit more spark advance dialed in.
For what it's worth, BMW also claims that their MPPK does not affect fuel economy.

dino001

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

You say that, but yor statement violates basic principles of engineering. You essentially say you found a way to get something for nothing, no energy in, more energy out, by a wave of a wand. I wish I could do it in structural design, but I can't.

My MS3 gets the same mileage as it did prior to installing the tune; there's no magic involved- the tune modifies the ignition advance, fueling, and boost primarily at higher rpm and throttle openings. At cruise the car is running on what is essentially the stock map, with perhaps a bit more spark advance dialed in.
For what it's worth, BMW also claims that their MPPK does not affect fuel economy.

But how about reliability, longevity? Can you say with certainty, it's unchanged? Noise, wear, low end vs. high end torque. I suppose it's possible that current factors of safety are so high that the lowering them does not bring appreciable differences. I just caution against "it's all free" attitude. In nature, nothing is free. You always pay somewhere. Engineering is an act of balancing competing interests, as people have different interests, it will result in different products, but everything comes with a price.

qbrozen

Sure, it doesn't affect fuel economy...unless you actually use that extra power, at which point, why tune it at all? So, yes, it does increase fuel usage when you are utilizing those extra ponies. Nothing wrong with that.

As to "same reliability," well, that's a premature argument, and lacks a control. You actually have no idea how it has affected or will affect the reliability. I broke my 135i. Did the mods do it or was it doomed to happen even if stock? There is no way for anybody to know.

kyfdx

I think that the engineers that design the car could tell you, on a statistical basis, what the likelihood is.

My teenager thinks you can chip a car, with no adverse effects, ever. But, then again, he has never paid a car repair bill.

Want to see the effect of mods? Go shop for a used Subaru WRX, note the mods, then note the repairs.

dino001

qbrozen said:

Sure, it doesn't affect fuel economy...unless you actually use that extra power, at which point, why tune it at all? So, yes, it does increase fuel usage when you are utilizing those extra ponies. Nothing wrong with that.

As to "same reliability," well, that's a premature argument, and lacks a control. You actually have no idea how it has affected or will affect the reliability. I broke my 135i. Did the mods do it or was it doomed to happen even if stock? There is no way for anybody to know.

Well said. There is no way of saying with certainty that an individual vehicle broke because of the mods. However, the statistics and principles of physics say that the probability of such failure increased, it could be by a little or a lot, depending on how big the mod was, how the car was driven, etc.

It's fine to mod the car, if that's what floats one's boat. The cost may be instantly evident, or deferred in time (perhaps beyond the ownership span), it may be high or low. The benefits may as well be worth it for the owner, outweighing that cost, I'm not disputing that, either. I simply disagree with the "zero cost whatsoever" notion.

roadburner

I think it depends on the vehicle as well as the power increase that is sought. On my modified cars I have only pursued modest gains in horsepower/torque. Those gains might erode the reliability at the margin, but not to any significant extent. UOAs consistently indicate that the engines in my MS3 as well as my Club Sport are in excellent shape, so I'm not losing any sleep over the tweaks the cars have received.

Mr_Shiftright

I suspect the longevity of your cars relate much more to the high level of maintenance you give them then to the alleged benign nature of the modifications. Also I am sure you would agree that not all chips are engineered to a high standard, and that the consumer who is shopping price rather than reputation may end up with some rather bad results.

I did some homework when I modified the supercharger on my car. I opted for colder spark plugs a larger intercooler and using the very best engine oils. So far so good. I will throw a check engine light though if I do a long hard climb up a mountain on a hot day. No doubt related to fuel mixture.