Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

flightnurse

dino001 said:

You say that, but yor statement violates basic principles of engineering. You essentially say you found a way to get something for nothing, no energy in, more energy out, by a wave of a wand. I wish I could do it in structural design, but I can't.

I believe BMW and for that matter most sport car manufactures have engineered their engines to perform with added stress and still be reliable, I asked this before and you and others haven't comments.. BMW markets the MPK and MPE for their cars, if it would cause added stress and lower reliability why would they make them and warrens them? Maybe they know the engines can take it? Nah that can't be it.

dino001

You're missing my point entirely. It's not if they can take it, it's which configuration is optimal for certain position in the market, considering all factors. Apparently they believe factory configuration represents a better mix for the market. You say they warrant those mods. Just because it keeps the warranty, doesn't mean it's equally reliable. Do you know what portion of that price is set aside for the warranty? I don't. What I know are principles behind the engineering and they teach me nothing is free, everything is a tradeoff. Small, or large.

flightnurse

dino001 said:

You're missing my point entirely. It's not if they can take it, it's which configuration is optimal for certain position in the market, considering all factors. Apparently they believe factory configuration represents a better mix for the market. You say they warrant those mods. Just because it keeps the warranty, doesn't mean it's equally reliable. Do you know what portion of that price is set aside for the warranty? I don't. What I know are principles behind the engineering and they teach me nothing is free, everything is a tradeoff. Small, or large.

Dino I'm sorry you can't grasp the idea that the extra HP from the chips haven't reduced reliability, even Roadrunner has stated he has no problems with 154K miles on a car. All my motorcycles engine have modifications and have been stone reliable.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think he missed the point. I think he's making another point. Maybe we could look at it this way. If it was simple and cheap to give a Mazda 3 some 60 more HP, why wouldn't Mazda just do that? It would give them a tremendous edge on the competition and would make the car the darling of the auto magazines. The Mazda engineers must have been weighing something other than cost in this decision. After all, Mazda could build those mods you made for a fraction of what it cost you.

stickguy

heck, the BMW tune is "free" to BMW since they have the computer in there anyway. So it seems like a no brainer to give the car all the extra power for the same price.

qbrozen

flightnurse said:

You say that, but yor statement violates basic principles of engineering. You essentially say you found a way to get something for nothing, no energy in, more energy out, by a wave of a wand. I wish I could do it in structural design, but I can't.

I believe BMW and for that matter most sport car manufactures have engineered their engines to perform with added stress and still be reliable, I asked this before and you and others haven't comments.. BMW markets the MPK and MPE for their cars, if it would cause added stress and lower reliability why would they make them and warrens them? Maybe they know the engines can take it? Nah that can't be it.

Because it is a limited warranty. It is a modest gain in power in those instances and they only need to cover it for 50k, 60k, or what have you. They may know, just for example, the unmodded engines can go 150k, while the modded ones go 120k. Either is certainly covered by warranty, but they'd rather have more of the 150k cars running around to uphold some face. If they made strictly vehicles that only lasted just past their warranty, it wouldn't bode well for their reputation.

dino001

Mr_Shiftright said:

I don't think he missed the point. I think he's making another point. Maybe we could look at it this way. If it was simple and cheap to give a Mazda 3 some 60 more HP, why wouldn't Mazda just do that? It would give them a tremendous edge on the competition and would make the car the darling of the auto magazines. The Mazda engineers must have been weighing something other than cost in this decision. After all, Mazda could build those mods you made for a fraction of what it cost you.

Mr_Shiftright said:

I don't think he missed the point. I think he's making another point. Maybe we could look at it this way. If it was simple and cheap to give a Mazda 3 some 60 more HP, why wouldn't Mazda just do that? It would give them a tremendous edge on the competition and would make the car the darling of the auto magazines. The Mazda engineers must have been weighing something other than cost in this decision. After all, Mazda could build those mods you made for a fraction of what it cost you.

Well, one data point is hardly a thesis. Another issue we know little about may be emissions and EPA certification. Do mods change those and how would that change legal picture, if sold as an official model?

roadburner

Both the Mazdaspeed Intake as well as the Hypertech Sport Tuner have CARB approval. As to why Mazda didn't sell the car that way from the get-go? In the case of the intake I'd say probably it's due to the fact it uses a washable filter, is a bit louder, and requires a bit more effort to access the filter. As for the tune, Mazda actually did offer a tune on the Australian 3 MPS Extreme, which boosted power by 18 hp and torque by 33 lb-ft.

flightnurse

So the numbers are in on the new BMW 340. BMS just Dynoed one, 331 to the wheels, it's quoted as making 320hp.. Now with the new Beta version of the BMS JB4 it makes 379hp at the wheel, that is with pump premium unleaded. a nice 48hp jump with a +3 lbs of boost..

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/884502/burger-tuning-just-posted-jb4-beta-dyno-numbers-for-the-340-380hp-380-tq/

Mr_Shiftright

yeah, but.....dynos are not absolute numbers, they can be conjurer's tricks. I'd like to see results from say three independent dynos. I can make a dyno give you any number you pick. There are a number of videos on YouTube in which dyno claims are tested---some prove true, some miss the mark.

stickguy

331 at the wheels isn't enough? Is everyone big daddy Don Garlits now?

Assuming 20% discount you are talking about an actual 400+ rating, right?

roadburner

331 hp at the wheels is decent but nothing extraordinary.

Mr_Shiftright

Less than one wants, more than one needs.

flightnurse

Mr_Shiftright said:

yeah, but.....dynos are not absolute numbers, they can be conjurer's tricks. I'd like to see results from say three independent dynos. I can make a dyno give you any number you pick. There are a number of videos on YouTube in which dyno claims are tested---some prove true, some miss the mark.

Please tell us how numbers can be conjurer?

Mr_Shiftright

Seems like you can add in a correction factor prior to the pull or you can mess with the pressure sensors. Some types of dynos would be easier to cheat on than others of course. Dynos, after all, are a major sales tool.

This issue comes up in other forums when complaints come in about certain dynos in certain shops reading suspiciously high, all the time, every time.

So I can't point to any one company or incident, but there is obviously monkey business going on here and there. How they do it, I don't know exactly.

flightnurse

Mr_Shiftright said:

Seems like you can add in a correction factor prior to the pull or you can mess with the pressure sensors. Some types of dynos would be easier to cheat on than others of course. Dynos, after all, are a major sales tool.

This issue comes up in other forums when complaints come in about certain dynos in certain shops reading suspiciously high, all the time, every time.

So I can't point to any one company or incident, but there is obviously monkey business going on here and there. How they do it, I don't know exactly.

So you can't point to any one company but you are willing to post that we shouldn't trust these dyno runs because of "possible" issues? I highly doubt that BMS will post wrong info, they aren't a big company that could hire a PR firm to undo the damage of such wrong claims.

Mr_Shiftright

I never implied anything of the sort with BMS. Advising people to research data from impartial sources rather than the manufacturer seems like good advice to me, whether it's "lasts three times as long as leading deodorant" or "highest interest CD available today". Consumer Reports built an empire on this very principle. If a manufacturer's claims are substantiated they are rewarded.

C'mon, you don't blindly accept every claim from every product. You check it out. You checked out BMS, I know you did.

Would I do a second dyno test after spending say $600 on a chip or re-flash or whatever. Sure I would.

This is also the method of coming to forums. We want to know other's experiences about entry-level performance cars. We want to read calibrated road tests. We want assurance that we're buying the real thing.

flightnurse

Mr_Shiftright said:

I never implied anything of the sort with BMS. Advising people to research data from impartial sources rather than the manufacturer seems like good advice to me, whether it's "lasts three times as long as leading deodorant" or "highest interest CD available today". Consumer Reports built an empire on this very principle. If a manufacturer's claims are substantiated they are rewarded.

C'mon, you don't blindly accept every claim from every product. You check it out. You checked out BMS, I know you did.

Would I do a second dyno test after spending say $600 on a chip or re-flash or whatever. Sure I would.

This is also the method of coming to forums. We want to know other's experiences about entry-level performance cars. We want to read calibrated road tests. We want assurance that we're buying the real thing.

Did you read the article that I posted? I don't think you did.... It was a Beta test, more testing to come.

flightnurse

roadburner said:

331 hp at the wheels is decent but nothing extraordinary.

Well since BMW quotes the power of the 340 to be at 320hp. I would think 331 is a excellent number.

roadburner

flightnurse said:

Well since BMW quotes the power of the 340 to be at 320hp. I would think 331 is a excellent number.

It is a good number compared to the advertised hp, but 331 hp isn't all that extraordinary compared to a lot of other performance cars on the market. stickguy's comment made it sound as it 331 hp is some astronomical power number and it just isn't.

Mr_Shiftright

I think I said that you had checked out the numbers.

flightnurse said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

I never implied anything of the sort with BMS. Advising people to research data from impartial sources rather than the manufacturer seems like good advice to me, whether it's "lasts three times as long as leading deodorant" or "highest interest CD available today". Consumer Reports built an empire on this very principle. If a manufacturer's claims are substantiated they are rewarded.

C'mon, you don't blindly accept every claim from every product. You check it out. You checked out BMS, I know you did.

Would I do a second dyno test after spending say $600 on a chip or re-flash or whatever. Sure I would.

This is also the method of coming to forums. We want to know other's experiences about entry-level performance cars. We want to read calibrated road tests. We want assurance that we're buying the real thing.

Did you read the article that I posted? I don't think you did.... It was a Beta test, more testing to come.

andres3

markcincinnati said:

At least the fluid tank will be replaced under warranty. Things happen. Doesn't sound like this rises to the level of bashing.

I could be wrong.

I guess my sarcasm didn't come across. I agree, a leaky washer fluid tank is hardly anything to worry about. If that's the only thing that goes wrong in 37K miles, that's pretty excellent in my book.

flightnurse

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think I said that you had checked out the numbers.

I'm sure since the product is in beta testing we shall see more numbers to come.

Mr_Shiftright

Swinging back to the topic of shopping entry level performance cars (but not forgetting what we were knocking about), I personally don't pay too much attention to numbers when shopping for a car. As many car enthusiasts know, there is a "car's numbers" and there's "how a car performs in the real world", and those two things can be very different.

graphicguy

Mr_Shiftright said:

Swinging back to the topic of shopping entry level performance cars (but not forgetting what we were knocking about), I personally don't pay too much attention to numbers when shopping for a car. As many car enthusiasts know, there is a "car's numbers" and there's "how a car performs in the real world", and those two things can be very different.

Here...Here! So true.

I do remember when I put so much stock into 0-60 numbers from the car rags. That is, until I read an article (probably from C&D or R&D) that showed how they came up with those numbers. Usually, it was a get the revs up, drop the clutch, and try to keep it in a straight line, sort of ordeal. I don't drive like that (at least, not any more).

These days, I look at the entire package. Steering, handling, suspension's abilities to negotiate rough pavement without dancing...somewhere down the list is acceleration. Got to admit, even lux cars and mundane sedans are pretty darned quick these days.

roadburner

I look at 0-100 and 50-70 in-gear times to get a good idea of the overall power and flexibility of the drivetrain. That and responsive handling(with fairly high limits) are non-negotiable. I strongly prefer RWD and three pedals, although I can be persuaded by a decent DCT/DSG; ditto for AWD that actually enhances high performance driving- see: STI and the S and RS edition Audis.

stickguy

Consumers reports probably is the most representative of real world times. They drive like normal people. Light changes, hit the gas!

street start (rolling at 5 MPH) is also good indicator of flexibility. Exposes cars that need to have the snot revved out of them and clutch dumped to get moving.

40-80 is probably the best overall window of useful power application.

sweendogy

General question...Has anyone had to do any repairs on these cars lately.? Brakes, tires anything non-oil change related. Reason for the ask wondering when I will have to go for brakes and dreading the potential cost. Knock on wood 27k miles not a gremlin to be found- also 430 mile round trip recently almost did a round tripper at 27mpg without a stop but wussed out as the gas light came on with over 2 gallons left. Any Color appreshaited

nyccarguy

@sweendogy - you should definitely research some independent shops in your area. I'm sure there are many that are more than qualified. For instance, the mechanic that works on my car. He gets OEM parts from the part manufacturer, not necesearily the auto manufacturer. Let's say Audi uses a certain sensor for the brakes. He'll get the sensor in the Bosch Box, not from Audi. His overhead is also much less than the gorgeous dealer with loaner cars, flat screen TVs, free WiFi, coffee...

Let's say the dealer wants to charge $1500 to do pads & rotors on all 4 corners, a solid independent shop might charge $800 or so.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd bet you could get that done at a very good indie shop for under $1000.

markcincinnati

sweendogy said:

General question...Has anyone had to do any repairs on these cars lately.? Brakes, tires anything non-oil change related. Reason for the ask wondering when I will have to go for brakes and dreading the potential cost. Knock on wood 27k miles not a gremlin to be found- also 430 mile round trip recently almost did a round tripper at 27mpg without a stop but wussed out as the gas light came on with over 2 gallons left. Any Color appreshaited

Agree regarding finding a well qualified shop -- one that specializes in your brand, for these cars are breathtakingly expensive to maintain and repair after the OEM warranty/"free" service period expires.

ONE factor in favor of the dealer -- and it may or may not impress you -- they (ours anyway) will do it right the first time and if not, make it right for no extra charge. That has not been my experience with the folks who don't charge like a dealer.

Nevertheless, there are competent specialists in most cities, and my opinion is that they will save you money. My wife likes the loaner program, so she values the free loaner very much.

roadburner

At my BMW dealer I get a 20% discount on service as well as the parts and accessories I pick up for DIY projects. My Mazda dealer usually has a coupon I can use, and of course they also gave me free oil changes for as long as I own the car. I also have a few indie shops I can use that do excellent work.

sweendogy

Thank you community for the answers - much appreciated. I will look Indi as I have a service due in another 3500 miles or so. Has any Audi or s4 owner had to do brakes yet? Or BMW person ? If so mileage at time of service would be appreciated

Mr_Shiftright

I could get you a quote from a California Audi shop, which of course will reflect our labor rates. I don't remember where you are residing, sorry.

So, you want a quote for pads and rotors all the way 'round?

nyccarguy

He's in MA which most likely has high labor rates just like CA

roadburner

sweendogy said:

Thank you community for the answers - much appreciated. I will look Indi as I have a service due in another 3500 miles or so. Has any Audi or s4 owner had to do brakes yet? Or BMW person ? If so mileage at time of service would be appreciated

1995 318ti Club Sport: Front pads- 56,676 miles, F/R pads+rotors- 103,122 miles
2004 X3 2.5i: F/R pads+rotors- 60,618 miles, Rear pads- 132,214 miles, Front pads+rotors- 144,362 miles
2009 328i:: Rear pads+rotors- 61,980 miles, Front pads+rotors- 70,237 miles

markcincinnati

sweendogy said:

Thank you community for the answers - much appreciated. I will look Indi as I have a service due in another 3500 miles or so. Has any Audi or s4 owner had to do brakes yet? Or BMW person ? If so mileage at time of service would be appreciated

I've had two A6's have their brakes replaced and I have the wear pattern progression of both my wife's SQ5 and my S4. She has over 50K on hers and the dealer says she'll probably need new REAR brakes in less than 10K miles from now. Not sure what that means with respect to when the FRONT brakes would need replacing.

Audi suggests new rotors, on our BMW's the service dept said BMW prohibits a "brake job" from being carried out without also changing the rotors. On my 2005 A6, I had all four brakes (rotors included) replaced at around 48K miles at no charge under the Audi advantage. That option, via the Audi advantage, now is only free for the first 12K miles if I read the AA correctly.

BMW costs, thankfully covered, were a small four figure number for new brakes for a 2008 X3. Whew, avoided that one.

Audi prices, still breathtaking, seem to be lower, but it seems to me that the costs would be still at least 75% of the BMW costs (at the dealer).

On my 2001 A6, I bought cross drilled rotors (not from the dealer) and took them to the dealer for installation.

I love the brakes on our Audis -- and 50 to 60K for replacement doesn't seem horrible -- what does seem to be the case though is that the costs (using Audi parts) do seem too high. Yet, the brakes are one area that I am certainly not willing to go no-name brand installed at Midas, or where ever.

We'll probably get the new REARS on the SQ5 at the dealer and pay a couple hundred bucks more for peace of mind.

roadburner

markcincinnati said:

Audi suggests new rotors, on our BMW's the service dept said BMW prohibits a "brake job" from being carried out without also changing the rotors.

They fed you a line; when my BMW dealer replaced the rear pads on my son's X3 at 132,214 miles I was told that the rear rotor thickness was within BMW specs and replacement was not required.

markcincinnati said:

BMW costs, thankfully covered, were a small four figure number for new brakes for a 2008 X3. Whew, avoided that one.

Wow. My dealer charged less than $1,000 to replace the pads and rotors on the X3 at 60,618 miles.

markcincinnati

roadburner said:

markcincinnati said:

Audi suggests new rotors, on our BMW's the service dept said BMW prohibits a "brake job" from being carried out without also changing the rotors.

They fed you a line; when my BMW dealer replaced the rear pads on my son's X3 at 132,214 miles I was told that the rear rotor thickness was within BMW specs and replacement was not required.

markcincinnati said:

BMW costs, thankfully covered, were a small four figure number for new brakes for a 2008 X3. Whew, avoided that one.

Wow. My dealer charged less than $1,000 to replace the pads and rotors on the X3 at 60,618 miles.

For ALL FOUR WHEELS?

markcincinnati

Clarification -- new rotors were only required, so they said, if the pads were being replaced. Can't imagine what other conditions besides a brake rotor and/or brake pad replacement are even possible. The good news, they did it at no charge.

My neighbor was not so lucky -- at 55,000 miles, the front brakes (pads+rotors) were changed on his X5. Parts were, at the time, $900-ish. And then, of course, was the labor. Front only. Front only. Stunning -- and painful.

markcincinnati

Why would rear brakes be the first to go? Seems counter-intuitive.

andres3

Ferodo Street Sport pads. Expensive? Yes. Worth it? Yes.

roadburner

markcincinnati said:

For ALL FOUR WHEELS?

Exactly.

Mr_Shiftright

Geez, that's BMW 7-series money.

stickguy

Honda's for some reason had a phase where the rears wore out much quicker than the front. I learned this when it happened to my Accord.

nyccarguy

stickguy said:

Honda's for some reason had a phase where the rears wore out much quicker than the front. I learned this when it happened to my Accord.

Happened in my (former) TSX & our Pilot as well. It doesn't make sense as the cars are platforms are FWD & the cars are nose heavy. One service adviser at a Honda dealer told me it is because they put rear brake pads "the size of oreo cookies" on the cars.

sda

markcincinnati said:

Clarification -- new rotors were only required, so they said, if the pads were being replaced. Can't imagine what other conditions besides a brake rotor and/or brake pad replacement are even possible. The good news, they did it at no charge.

My neighbor was not so lucky -- at 55,000 miles, the front brakes (pads+rotors) were changed on his X5. Parts were, at the time, $900-ish. And then, of course, was the labor. Front only. Front only. Stunning -- and painful.

Are there other BMW dealers in your area? If not, sounds like a captive audience and little chance for getting another quote unless an independent shop does the work.

sda

stickguy said:

Honda's for some reason had a phase where the rears wore out much quicker than the front. I learned this when it happened to my Accord.

Same with my 06 Passat. Rear pads replaced around 50k, rotors left intact and didn't need resurfacing. Not sure this answer was correct but the service advisor told me there was more bias dialed to the rear brakes than in the past to take some of the stress off the front brakes. (?)

kyfdx

markcincinnati said:

Clarification -- new rotors were only required, so they said, if the pads were being replaced. Can't imagine what other conditions besides a brake rotor and/or brake pad replacement are even possible. The good news, they did it at no charge.

My neighbor was not so lucky -- at 55,000 miles, the front brakes (pads+rotors) were changed on his X5. Parts were, at the time, $900-ish. And then, of course, was the labor. Front only. Front only. Stunning -- and painful.

Yeah.. my dealer quoted around $600 just to do the rear brakes on my '06 model BMW. A lot of that is the OEM BMW rotors. Really, really pricy. I had my independent do the job with BMW pads and sensor, but with aftermarket rotors. Saved about half.

kyfdx

markcincinnati said:

Why would rear brakes be the first to go? Seems counter-intuitive.

It does seem that way, but typical for BMWs.