Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

breld

@nyccarguy - TLXs are starting to sprout up on the used market as well, and with what seems to be some quick deprecation.

I'm not saying the base model necessarily competes with some of the leaders in this segment, but getting one with the tech package for, let's say, mid to high $20k's is a pretty compelling package at that price. Though you'd be going back to FWD, which based on where your heads at, may not be compelling at all.

breld

You can build the new A4 at Audi's website now. Trims and packages seem to be simplified from the last model, at least for now. Again, I think the DSG and "upgraded" 2.0t make it an attractive and competitive choice.

stickguy

Forgot to mention. A WRX should have a stick shift. Not a CVT. Not negotiable.

@breld, I really like the TLX. Excellent interior, and I like the way it looks. That is also on my short list for next car in a 1.5 years (and yes, probably slightly used). Though unlike many of you here, I would get the FWD 4 cyl. version. Plenty of scoot for me, and lighter on it's feet, plus cheaper and better MPG.

nyccarguy

@stickguy - I know the CVT has its critics.  Rightfully so. One that's not properly designed or engineered could be disastrous.  I do business with a guy who had one replaced on a Jeep Compass twice.  Once on Chrysler's dime @ 60K, then again on his credit card @ 120K.  It is part of the reason I bought the 100K extended warranty for my Legacy.

Living with the CVT for 16 months and a little over 25K miles, I'm pretty impressed with it.  Those who don't know (the wife) think it is a traditional automatic transmission (plus I'd get the eye roll if I tried to explain otherwise).  It is very linear & smooth.  It doesn't drone as some reviews suggest (trust me, I'd know).  It also makes the most of my Legacy's meager 175 hp.

A CVT wouldn't deter me from a WRX

kyfdx

@nyccarguy @stickguy is correct. WRX requires a stick-shift.

We let you buy an E30 BMW with an automatic, but now this is getting out of hand.

stickguy

Actually, I liked the CVT in the Legacy (or at least, never noticed it, which is a good thing). A perfectly fine solution for that car.

But a WRX needs to have a stick shift. Not an AT of any kind.

Kyfdx has my back on this!

kyfdx

I was thinking that maybe we could tweak the software to delete the term "CVT", when appearing in the same post with the letters "WRX"

dino001

Drove CVT Legacy. Good mileage, but the whining engine wasn't much pleasure. Lots of noise, not much acceleration above 60 mph.

nyccarguy

@dino001 - there does seem to be a considerable amount of wind noise compared to my E90 which as you know is a bank vault.  I've gotten used to it.  The BMW also had a sticker price of $20K more.  I'm not thrilled with the mileage compared to the engine's output.  There's not much accleration at all, not just above 60! LOL!

nyccarguy

@kyfdx - then the WRX is off the table.  I can't have 2 out of 3 cars in the stable that my wife can't drive.  Does anybody know if the A3 Premium has some sort of backup camera?

nyccarguy

breld said:

@nyccarguy - TLXs are starting to sprout up on the used market as well, and with what seems to be some quick deprecation. I'm not saying the base model necessarily competes with some of the leaders in this segment, but getting one with the tech package for, let's say, mid to high $20k's is a pretty compelling package at that price. Though you'd be going back to FWD, which based on where your heads at, may not be compelling at all.

Acuras are funny like that.  They sell cheap for new, but then they don't really depreciate.  TL SH AWDs which sold for what $35K when new the last 2 years of production still have asking prices as CPO cars in the high $20s to low $30K range.

dino001

nyccarguy said:

@dino001 - there does seem to be a considerable amount of wind noise compared to my E90 which as you know is a bank vault.  I've gotten used to it.  The BMW also had a sticker price of $20K more.  I'm not thrilled with the mileage compared to the engine's output.  There's not much accleration at all, not just above 60! LOL!

I think at low end it is quicker than it feels, but once the ratios change at higher speeds, it really is sluggish. But it can be worse - new Chrysler 200 I drove recently was just awful at highway speeds.

Sandman6472

NY, now you know why I really really like our A3, t really is a nice looking vehicle. Ours being the base model with the extra safety features besides the back-up camera the wife had to have, it's a great package. It feels like a more expensive vehicle than it is the minute you open the door. As much as I like my Golf, like the A3 even more and the white over black is nice, not a combo I'd choose though. Luckily, she's keeping the mileage down so when the time is right, I'd still have a lower mileage A3.

The Sandman

graphicguy

nyccarguy said:

breld said:

@nyccarguy - TLXs are starting to sprout up on the used market as well, and with what seems to be some quick deprecation.

I'm not saying the base model necessarily competes with some of the leaders in this segment, but getting one with the tech package for, let's say, mid to high $20k's is a pretty compelling package at that price. Though you'd be going back to FWD, which based on where your heads at, may not be compelling at all.

Acuras are funny like that.  They sell cheap for new, but then they don't really depreciate.  TL SH AWDs which sold for what $35K when new the last 2 years of production still have asking prices as CPO cars in the high $20s to low $30K range.

Yeah....nice thing about Acuras (and Hondas in general) are how they retain their value. I know the brand is going through a bit of an identity crisis, but as Bradd says, they are good value when discounted as new cars. Matter of fact, tough to find a better value at $35k-$42K.

andres3

Acura needs a TLX-S with the better 3.7 (vs. 3.5) tuned up to 330+ HP with proper transmission choices. Or maybe they could turbocharge the old gem of a 3.0 V6.

graphicguy

Andres....unless there were some issues with CAFE standards, I really couldn't understand why Acura moved away from the 3.7. That was a sweet motor...and truthfully, not all that old.

TLX-S would be a very nice addition. Not sure how Acura is positioning their turbo technology, though. Seems as if they're sticking with turbos only on their 4 cyl motors.

circlew

I am having loads of fun with the Q50 in the snow!

stever

If you considered a small car but ended up buying something larger, a reporter wants to talk with you. Please email PR@edmunds.com by Friday, 2/5/16 with a few words about your decision including the make and model that you chose.

sweendogy

Funny or sad? It's February and infinit still selling the q50 as year 2015 new car, with no option for the 16 model - maybe they are skipping this year and will give the new engine a little later and call it a 2017?

My s4 has 29k and change and in for the 35mile service - cost for Audi recommended is 1100 with a transmission flush plus filter and some other filer services. I will be paying around 500 for basically an oil change after declining others mentioned. It's been at the dealer for 2 days now as they try to find a volume button replacement (it fell off). Something to be said for Acura Infiniti Lexus service and pricing.

The 2016 Audi A4 s type or whatever it's called is a nice looking car but in auto form with 2000 dealer miles my loaner is kind of a sled at best. Inside its amazing - comfortable but it's no sports sedan, in fact it's kind and of a snooze while waiting for the turbo to kick in.

Oh and my car was backed into by the neighbors mini van a week ago- nice front side quarter crease - will post pix after the dealer finds a volume knob.

brian125

sweendogy

Its a shame you don't live closer to me. My guy was a top guy over at Ray Catena MB / Audi dealership in NJ. Stuff like you mention would be a fraction of what dealers are asking if he did the work. Find a good reputable mechanic for flushes, brakes, rotors etc. $1100 ouch. I usually sell all my Bmw and MB by there 4th yr. My wife's 12, ML 350 has 48k on the clock and has no problems. Not going to push it but looking to upgrade her ride within this year.

Next gen Q50 should be a better model . 2017 not sure . Great lease deals on the 16 models.

tlong

sweendogy said:

My s4 has 29k and change and in for the 35mile service - cost for Audi recommended is 1100 with a transmission flush plus filter and some other filer services. I will be paying around 500 for basically an oil change after declining others mentioned. It's been at the dealer for 2 days now as they try to find a volume button replacement (it fell off). Something to be said for Acura Infiniti Lexus service and pricing.

That's one reason that even though I love driving German cars, I've just had enough of their service and parts prices. Over the years the amount of actual service needed in cars has gone way down - I remember the '70's where I had to replace plugs, oil, adjust valves, timing, replace points and condenser - every 6K miles! It was a VW Bug. But in those days that service at an independent cost like $60. Today you do almost none of those things and yet the service is hundreds of dollars.

Michaell

tlong said:

My s4 has 29k and change and in for the 35mile service - cost for Audi recommended is 1100 with a transmission flush plus filter and some other filer services. I will be paying around 500 for basically an oil change after declining others mentioned. It's been at the dealer for 2 days now as they try to find a volume button replacement (it fell off). Something to be said for Acura Infiniti Lexus service and pricing.

That's one reason that even though I love driving German cars, I've just had enough of their service and parts prices. Over the years the amount of actual service needed in cars has gone way down - I remember the '70's where I had to replace plugs, oil, adjust valves, timing, replace points and condenser - every 6K miles! It was a VW Bug. But in those days that service at an independent cost like $60. Today you do almost none of those things and yet the service is hundreds of dollars.

 $60 in 1975 is about $270 today 

roadburner

One of the main reasons that I have not strayed too far from BMW is the fact that my dealer has an excellent service department and doesn't try to push unnecessary work. I also get a 20% discount on both parts and labor.

tlong

Michaell said:

tlong said:

sweendogy said:

My s4 has 29k and change and in for the 35mile service - cost for Audi recommended is 1100 with a transmission flush plus filter and some other filer services. I will be paying around 500 for basically an oil change after declining others mentioned. It's been at the dealer for 2 days now as they try to find a volume button replacement (it fell off). Something to be said for Acura Infiniti Lexus service and pricing.

That's one reason that even though I love driving German cars, I've just had enough of their service and parts prices. Over the years the amount of actual service needed in cars has gone way down - I remember the '70's where I had to replace plugs, oil, adjust valves, timing, replace points and condenser - every 6K miles! It was a VW Bug. But in those days that service at an independent cost like $60. Today you do almost none of those things and yet the service is hundreds of dollars.

 $60 in 1975 is about $270 today 

...but not $1100 as the OP mentioned. Also the kinds of services included in that price are probably less labor than the service from the 1970's.

stickguy

at the car show, my son did sit in the S3 again (bright red). He still loves those, but knows it is out of scope still. he has that as his "next car" still, with next car being the next one after the one he gets a year from now!

brian125

stick said
he has that as his "next car" still, with next car being the next one after the one he gets a year from now!

say that 5x

Any change coming down next year on the Q50 or 70 ?

stickguy

I think I read that they were doing a refresh on the 50 for 2016 (or 2017 now?)

did sit in the TLX again today. a really nice car. Super comfy seats. Really need to drive one eventually.

graphicguy

stickguy said:

I think I read that they were doing a refresh on the 50 for 2016 (or 2017 now?)

did sit in the TLX again today. a really nice car. Super comfy seats. Really need to drive one eventually.

Still love the TLX. Really good cars, regardless of which measuring stick you use. It's just not tops in any single category....except maybe bang for the buck!

flightnurse

Greetings from sunny Phoenix.. Well the Auction week's are over here and what a event. The Barrett Jackson event is mind blowing on what they have. Here is a link to the top 25 cars sold at all of the auctions that happen, some of the most beautiful cars ever built. While we were there we meet a gentlemen who was in charge of getting the cars on stage, Rick and I will be drivers next year, very much looking forward to this. The process starts next month. Here is the URL for the cars..

http://www.caranddriver.com/flipbook/top-25-sales-of-the-arizona-auctions?mag=cdb&list=nl_dvr_news&src=nl&date=020616

stickguy

for a LT relationship, a well-rounded performer with rock solid reliability is not a bad thing to have. Likely better than one that "wows" in one area but comes with a lot of other compromises that can wear on you after a while?

Maybe the difference between dating a wildcat (leasing) and marrying to grow old with (buy and keep for 10 years)?

stickguy

FN, you live in that area of AZ, right? So an easy gig for you? Certainly sounds like fun!

flightnurse

stickguy said:

FN, you live in that area of AZ, right? So an easy gig for you? Certainly sounds like fun!

Live in Phoenix, yes easy gig

roadburner

Those of you who don't follow the Cars & Conversation or Chronic Car Buyers topics might be interested to know that I picked up a CPO 2014 M235i about two weeks ago. My wife insisted that I check it out; I originally intended to drive it first and then drive a couple of new Mustang GTs in the same general area. As it turned out I ended up making a deal then and there.

I was honestly surprised at how good it was. The car is about the same size as an E36, which suits me perfectly(a main sticking point on the Mustang was its size). It has just about every option save the the Helen Keller Package(Blind Spot Monitoring, Lane Departure warning, etc.). It's also an automatic, but being the Sport derivation of the ZF HP8 I can live with it(in any event, I still have the Club Sport and Wrangler to keep my left foot in practice).

What do I like?
The transmission actually does what I want it to do in Sport+/Manual mode- every other BMW automatic I have driven has tried to second-guess me- including the B7 press loaner I tested a while back. Think: electronic full manual valve body, for any older drag racers out there. Durability should be decent as the M235i Racing gets essentially the same transmission, albeit with more aggressive software.

The Adaptive M Suspension literally transforms the car when you toggle into Sport or Sport+. It's almost like two different cars. I've never driven a BMW where the EDC or AMS made such a huge difference.

The standard M Performance Power Kit really eliminates the turbo lag; with 330 lb-ft of torque available from 1300 rpm it almost feels like some of the big block Chevys I drove in my misspent street racing youth. Fuel economy is hovering around 25 mpg, which is more than good enough for me.

Michelin PSS in a staggered setup are standard. No run flats!

The sports seats with adjustable bolsters are excellent as expected. It's no wonder that BMW NA is making them standard fitment in many US models; the base seats in newer BMW are only good for generating business for chiropractors.

The H-K audio is good enough that I don't feel like I have to tweak it right away.

Dislikes?
The steering could use a bit more feel. That said, the effort and ratio(s)-Variable Sport Steering is standard-is very good.

I agree with Bob Harper fromBMW CAR : the IP needs oil and water temperature gauges instead of the "///M 235i" graphic that illuminates as soon as you open the driver's door

The brakes are great but the pedal feel is somewhat wooden.

No LSD. I will definitely have to add one sooner than later; at half throttle it will light up the rear tires in Comfort mode with DSC fully enabled.

Track time will have to wait a few months. The 2ers first outing will be at Putnam Park- which is my "home" track. I'm too old to attempt to learn a car and a track at the same time. It will also see at least one night at the local 1/8th mile strip- might as well test the Launch Control...

A couple of people asked me to compare it to the E30 M3; the 2er is not as light on its feet and it lacks the "hard-wired to the synapses" experience of the original M3. However, it is very comparable to the E46 M3 in terms of handling and braking. Power in contrast, is more akin to that of the E9x M3 at least from a usability standpoint on public roads. In any event, I can easily see keeping this car for a decade or more. Who knows when/if Munich will build anything RWD in this size class again?

So... Is it worthy of an ///M badge? I'd say it's closer to an "is," but that said, most everyone has forgotten that the first M car based on a production model was the E12 M535i- which boasted the M30 3.5 motor from the E24 635i along with an upgraded suspension, an M body kit, and aggressively bolstered front seats. Sound familiar?

flightnurse

Congrates on the new M235, When the new M2 arrives in the next month or two, that will be worthy of the M badge.. Regarding the M Adaptive Suspension, I was really taken how it transforms the car when you toggle from C to S. It's like having two cars...

roadburner

I liked the M2, but it wasn't within my current budget. That said, at the M2's price point the GT350 is a compelling alternative. I'd have to spend considerable seat time in both to make the call.

flightnurse

roadburner said:

I liked the M2, but it wasn't within my current budget. That said, at the M2's price point the GT350 is a compelling alternative. I'd have to spend considerable seat time in both to make the call.

Having just driven a M3, Mustang GT and GT350 back to back, I give it to the GT350, for me it hits all the right points. Plus the sound that V8 makes is erotic (to me.) When I'm ready for next car it's going to be tough to choose.

nyccarguy

@flightnurse - I'd also go with the GT350 at the price point.  I know that you & Rick have no issues custom ordering & waiting for your BMWs, but it is not too hard to get an ///M3 or ///M4 into the $75K us atmosphere.

roadburner

A major selling point for the GT350 is the flat plane V8- it's significantly different from the Mustang GT engine. As for as price goes, the GT350 has the edge on paper; the trick is finding a dealer that actually has a car to sell- and isn't tacking on a $25k ADM sticker...

nyccarguy

I can't stand ADM stickers, but there are morons who pay them so who am I to judge?  I actually know 2 people who paid them.

 One guy bought a 2007 Shelby GT500 for $20K over sticker.  He put the $20K down, then paid off the rest of the car over 5 years.  He maybe put 5K miles on it.  Traded it in a year after it was paid off for a new Jaguar FType R coupe.

Another guy I know paid $10K over sticker for an '09 Challenger SRT8.  He got rid of it maybe 4 years later with less than 10K miles.

Mr_Shiftright

So he paid what? Maybe $60K?...and 9 years later it's worth 1/2 that---not too bad, really, even with the ADM.

nyccarguy

Mr_Shiftright said:

So he paid what? Maybe $60K?...and 9 years later it's worth 1/2 that---not too bad, really, even with the ADM.

The guy with the Shelby? I guess not.

My friend with the Challenger got slaughtered though. To him it doesn't matter. They've got a tree in the back yard.

flightnurse

nyccarguy said:

@flightnurse - I'd also go with the GT350 at the price point.  I know that you & Rick have no issues custom ordering & waiting for your BMWs, but it is not too hard to get an ///M3 or ///M4 into the $75K us atmosphere.

You can order a M3/M4 that comes in under the 65K mark, the only option I would get on them is M Adapative Suspension, for 1K that is it. But the GT350 fully loaded in far less then that. When it comes to the ADM well just wait, that will go away too.

andres3

roadburner said:

Those of you who don't follow the Cars & Conversation or Chronic Car Buyers topics might be interested to know that I picked up a CPO 2014 M235i about two weeks ago. My wife insisted that I check it out; I originally intended to drive it first and then drive a couple of new Mustang GTs in the same general area. As it turned out I ended up making a deal then and there.

I was honestly surprised at how good it was. The car is about the same size as an E36, which suits me perfectly(a main sticking point on the Mustang was its size). It has just about every option save the the Helen Keller Package(Blind Spot Monitoring, Lane Departure warning, etc.). It's also an automatic, but being the Sport derivation of the ZF HP8 I can live with it(in any event, I still have the Club Sport and Wrangler to keep my left foot in practice).

What do I like?
The transmission actually does what I want it to do in Sport+/Manual mode- every other BMW automatic I have driven has tried to second-guess me- including the B7 press loaner I tested a while back. Think: electronic full manual valve body, for any older drag racers out there. Durability should be decent as the M235i Racing gets essentially the same transmission, albeit with more aggressive software.

The Adaptive M Suspension literally transforms the car when you toggle into Sport or Sport+. It's almost like two different cars. I've never driven a BMW where the EDC or AMS made such a huge difference.

Okay, need a legend here. What does EDC and AMS stand for?

Have you had enough seat time in other recent model sporty cars to judge other "adaptive" suspensions with the M235i? I didn't notice hardly any change in a Lexus IS350 for example, and it had 4 different settings! The S3 only has 2 truly different settings; definitely noticeable. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a different car, but even in a short test drive, it was a good difference. If these adaptive suspensions don't add significant weight; I'd say they are definitely worth it as a Win Win.

roadburner

andres3 said:

Okay, need a legend here. What does EDC and AMS stand for?

Have you had enough seat time in other recent model sporty cars to judge other "adaptive" suspensions with the M235i? I didn't notice hardly any change in a Lexus IS350 for example, and it had 4 different settings! The S3 only has 2 truly different settings; definitely noticeable. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a different car, but even in a short test drive, it was a good difference. If these adaptive suspensions don't add significant weight; I'd say they are definitely worth it as a Win Win.

Sorry! EDC= Electronic Damper Control AMS= Adaptive M Suspension
Very similar similar systems that use various sensors and switch settings to modify jounce and rebound settings on the shocks. The GM's magnetorheological suspensions are more sophisticated and versatile, but I haven't had much experience with them. I haven't driven that many cars with adjustable damping aside from BMWs, and the M235i system makes the most noticeable difference that I've experienced.

andys120

Congratulations, Roadburner on your new M235i. An M235i convertible is at the top of my wish list and I think, like you, I'll like the size performance and features. The resemblance to the great E46 doesn't hurt either. Like you I've given some thought to various Mustangs but they're just to big for me. I wonder if they've improved the weight distribution. My '86 5 liter convertible was as front heavy as an unloaded pickup.

How long do you suppose it'll be before used M235s are in the $30K bracket?

qbrozen

well, the 2014s are already right around $30k at auction, putting them around $33k retail. Sooo... what time is it now?

roadburner

I'd agree.

jpp75

circlew said:

I am having loads of fun with the Q50 in the snow!

I will say I was impressed with how my AWD Q50 handled a 10" snow (large for NC). We don't have the equipment to clear streets, so most were unplowed when I went out. Ground clearance was the only real issue, and that didn't keep it from getting through the snow, you just heard it underneath.

andres3

I had to take in my S4 for its first warranty replacement part at 42K+ miles yesterday. The right headlight low beam bulb "burned out/broke." Indicator light was very specific about problem with the right side headlight low beam bulb. Audi covered it, although there was a mention that sometimes they might like to wiggle out of paying for bulbs.

I just said no owner would expect to have to replace bulbs in under 4 years or 50K miles. They didn't try and charge me; said it was a $300 bulb.

This was the headlight that was replaced by a body shop; so not original. I"m going to go with not a coincidence, and blame it on the body shop/accident rather than Audi. That's how I'm chalking this one up, and appreciate Audi covering it without making me deal with the hassle of going back to a lousy shop. I do realize the shop used an Audi derived OEM replacement part, but I have my reasons.

Isn't this 2 indicator errors in 2016 alone for me? First windshield washer fluid issue, now a burned/broken bulb. When is Audi going to learn how to make a car :P LOL.

Maybe this is a sign I should join Chronic Car Buyer's Anonymous before a 3rd indicator error light comes on (besides low fuel).

roadburner

andres3 said:

This was the headlight that was replaced by a body shop; so not original. I"m going to go with not a coincidence, and blame it on the body shop/accident rather than Audi. That's how I'm chalking this one up, and appreciate Audi covering it without making me deal with the hassle of going back to a lousy shop. I do realize the shop used an Audi derived OEM replacement part, but I have my reasons.

I hate dealing with most body shops; if the car looks good from 20 feet away the average customer is ecstatic- and as a result, the work really suffers. Maybe I've just been lucky, but when I creased the side of my ti I took it to my local dealer's BMW Certified Collision Repair Center. The quality of the work was outstanding, and I had absolutely no complaints. Was the body shop that "repaired" your car an Audi certified shop?