Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

flightnurse

Funny you should ask that questions. Now this is at Camelback BMW (here in PHX) the sales guy tells me that he lease's about 3-4 of those uber low monthly payments 3 series to people who shouldn't own one. He tries to talk them out of them and explains that the mileage restrictions will kill them at the end of lease. But, people do not listen to them at all.

flightnurse

Shipo when you quote someone, don't change the original quote. Sween never wrote v6.

"with the new 328 coming out soon - and sporting a 4cyl engine, that outperforms the current v6, does this change the way we look at this ELLPS foruM?"

flightnurse

Makes sense - would guess 7 series closer to 70 owned vs lease

Sween yes and when it comes to buying them, it usually a cash deal to boot.

flightnurse

I read a review on the new 2012 Z4 with this new engine, I was impressed that the Z4 is a better car with the turbo 4, its faster, a more balanced car and did get better mileage then with the old 3 liter 6. Now one would hope that the new 3 series will have the same benefit as the Z4. Also, turners will start to play with the new engine and we will see the HP rating go up, now if they can get the engine to produce 300hp and 300lbs of torque and be reliable then why buy the 335...

ALso MB had a 4 cl in thier C class for many years and dropped it for a small V6, will MB go back to a entry level 4 cl?

nyccarguy

I understand the new Turbo 4 weighs less than the outgoing I6. I know that aides primarily in handling & balance & all that good stuff. How much better fuel economy does it get? How much of the better fuel economy is due to the 4cyl engine & how much is due to the new 8 speed auto? Look at the numbers of the 2011 528i vs. the 2012 528i.

shipo

I didn't change the quote, I copied/pasted it exactly as sweendogy originally wrote it; apparently the post was edited after I commented on it.

Too bad this site doesn't have a "Last edited..." footnote like vBulletin powered forums do. That said, if you look at the two posts concerned, you'll see the timestamp of his original post is eleven minutes after my post which is immediately below his.

shipo

While the numbers aren't official yet, I have it on good authority (remember, I used to live literally down the street from BMW-NA and still have lots of friends in the neighborhood) that the new 328i will return a real-world "high thirties" on the highway. As for what the EPA tests will report, that has yet to be seen.

qbrozen

That would be very impressive.

shipo

I agree, and oh geez do I want one with a sweet shifting 6-Speed manual.

nyccarguy

I know BMWs typically exceed their published numbers whether it be EPA fuel economy estimates, horsepower & torque claims... Especially after break in.

It is very cool that the new Blown 4cyl 3 is impressing the brass @ BMWNA. I'm excited for a 6 speed stick version too. I'm also really impressed with the sub 6 second 0-60 time. I can't wait until BMW puts this thing up on their build your own on their website.

dino001

I still rather have NA straight 6. Perhaps if (when) gas goes to 5-6 buck a gallon, I'll change my mind.

I basically decided to jump in and get one before new 328, exactly because of the four cylinder replacing base six in 328 (got the wagon, so no 335i on that, plus 50K+ after some options still too much for me). Boy, what a sweet machine - drove it in Germany on Autobahn, got to 138 mph before traffic stopped me. Now waiting for delivery in Spartanburg - probably in January.

Don't care about lower gas mileage, don't care about lower weight, higher power/torque. I just wanted that NA straight six - it's probably one of the best engines in the history. And I bet BMW would never have changed, if not for the new CAFE.

I had enough four cylinder turbos - 2002 WRX and 2008 WRX STI, which are boxers, inherently better configurations that straight four. Fast, great handling, in some aspects may better than 328 (allows faster corner entry and maintains that speed throughout). Still - I just wanted more "adult" car than my STI, was ready to give up some power and even some handling.

To me BMW 3-series was always about two things: weight distribution (50/50) and straight six. The 328 I just bought had interior that is just OK, but it looks like it was designed thirty minutes before the car was to be released - give some nice leather and wood inlays, add dashboard from 1989 and you're done. The car overcomes that in those mechanical aspects, but take of of them away and other choices become very compelling.

Audis are so much better looking(by a mile) both inside and out, have better equipment, cheaper. Or being a little on frugal side, I may get even lower to TSX (not sure about that, but would give it a try) or even Volvo V50.

To me BMW voluntarily gave up something they had over their competition. They better make it up in other areas - or else.

qbrozen

Not all engines are created equal, though. You can't condemn all 4-cyl turbos based on your subaru experience. The turbo boxer 4 is actually quite coarse compared to, say, the 2 liter VW turbo. That same 2 liter is also smoother and much more flexible than Volvo's I5 turbo. So you should really withold judgegment until you try it.

dino001

That's not what I meant. Actually Subaru boxers are great. Exhaust note is almost as intoxicating as that on the BMW's six. But I have not met I4 that I was impressed with. To me they all sound like sewing machines. They may be quiter (some) or more powerful than those from Subaru (not many, esp. STI), but it usually comes with high cost (counterweight balance shafts). Boxer is naturally balanced, just like straight six and offers low CG. No, I'd rather have the H4, or even I5 before I would get I4.

But more important - I got I6, which is what all I wanted for now. :shades:

ivan_99

heh

"He tries to talk them out of them and explains that the mileage restrictions will kill them at the end of lease. But, people do not listen to them at all."

Something about the customers not listening to the voice of reason by the salesman makes me laugh

shipo

In way too many instances, "the voice of reason by the salesman" = oxymoron.

kdshapiro

If I lived in Az, I would not lease a car. It's way to easy to pile the miles on your car. Where I live now is another story. I leased my car because I have a very good handle on my yearly mileage.

Kirstie_H

A major news network is seeking to interview someone who was saved from serious injury/death in an auto accident due to new safety technology. The ideal candidate should live in close proximity to a major metropolitan area, i.e. Los Angeles, Chicago, New York City, etc. Please send an email to pr@edmunds.com by 3 pm/pt, December 8.

sweendogy

Hes right I did changed it- since edmunds gives the option to change I used it to chamge it- but obviously you didn't get what I was saying - v6 a6 I 6 who cares it was 6 as being the point - and the fact that the class leader was changing its standard engine to a 4. Act as if.

markcincinnati

According to the web-zine, Winding Road: their review of the new I4 turbo makes me feel that one would not feel slighted having a BMW with this motor, quite the contrary. Their comments about the new larger 3 series, also encouraging.

shipo

Agreed. All else being equal I'd opt for a normally aspirated I6 over a blown I4, however, all else ain't even close to being equal. Specifically:
- The I4 Turbo has more maximum power and torque, and a substantially wider/flatter power band.
- The I4 Turbo weighs significantly less than the I6 which will aid in handling and fuel economy.
- The I4 Turbo is shorter (albeit wider by virtue of the turbo and its requisite plumbing) than the I6, and as such is easier to package which should in turn make service easier.
- The I4 Turbo returns significantly better fuel economy.

This is not to discount the fact that I6 motors are naturally balanced and have virtually no torque reversal events (of which there are two for every rotation of a 4-Cylinder/4-Stroke engine), and as such are naturally smoother both in operation and in power delivery. That said, the portion of the roughness of an I4 which is attributable to the engine's natural imbalance is A) relatively minor due to its 2.0 liter displacement (the threshold beyond which balance shafts become increasingly necessary), and are easily cancelled via a relatively small/light weight set of balance shafts.

Long story short, take a drive in a late model GTI or A3 (or A4 or A5) 2.0T and try and find something objectionable about the power delivery vis-à-vis a late model 328i. I've now had two I6 BMWs; the engine in my wife's new GTI is easily on par with the unit installed in both of my mounts from Munich.

flightnurse

Mileage I haven't heard yet from anyone who has a new 528i or Z4, but in theory it should get better mileage, however its a realitive thing if you are always in the boost then mileage is going to suck.

flightnurse

Shipo this is encouraging to hear, but when your friends say high 30's they can't mean 37 or 38 on highway. IF true, this would throw a big wrench in both the hybrid world and thier own diesel 3 series. BTW, I think the 3 series BMW is a true wolf in sheep clothing, drove one and loved it, however the price tag to enter I couldn't justify.

flightnurse

Why is it easy to pile miles on in AZ, say Austin or Tampa? Since I live in Phoenix, I hardly drive many miles (I'm usually in another city working) however when I was working in Phoenix, I didn't but more miles then when I lived in San Diego.

shipo

The highway MPG number that I've heard bandied about is just what you suggested, 37 to 38. That said, I don't think it will be much of a show-stopper for the new 320d (either version) because, while the numbers are harder to squeeze out of those in the know, very high forties or low fifties are what I'm led to believe.

busiris

According to info posted about the new Z4 sDrive 28i on www.fueleconomy.gov, its estimated to get 33mpg hwy, with the new 8 speed transmission.

While I would never say never, I don't see how a larger car will use the same, or very similar running gear and do better than the Z4. I can't see the high 30's... At best, the very low 30's, which is still nothing to whine about, IMO.

kdshapiro

When I go there, I normally put 50'to 100 miles a day on my car. If I worked in Phoenix I would commute 80 miles r/t. To me that's piling on the miles.

shipo

The numbers I've been quoted are for RWD and Manual Transmission equipped F30 328i models; in the case of the Z4 this configuration yields 34 mpg on the highway. That said, my understanding is that while the engine in the 2012 Z4 is the same basic engine, the unit which will find its way into the F30 has a few changes. As I understand things, the new engine should deliver slightly more power and better fuel economy.

Time will tell.

sweendogy

With the added power, better Mpgs and it being a little bit lighter - question will be why would anyone buy a 335 ? Performance wise they are very similar reading car and driver- they can both be set with the m package- plus Mpgs in the mid 30s highway ... Won't be long before BMW bumps the HP on the 335 I would guess.

shipo

I've had the exact same thoughts.

dino001

And the price, too, of course.