Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

fkong

Depending on your location. Where I'm at (So Cal), Longo Lexus claims they're going to get it by early 2012.

fedlawman

"you have to compare with base version, i.e. starting point. Golfs sold in Europe are good to understand how much any line can be refined."

The trim version has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

fedlawman

"I recently leased an IS350 F-Sport. Before making this decision, I also looked at a few other cars, and will let you guys know why I went with the big L."

You place a lot of importance on having RWD yet you chose a car with a slushbox? I don't get it... :confuse:

nyccarguy

So my driving a TSX V6 (no tech pkg) loaner car has got me thinking about our board's Acura debate, argument, disagreement, thing. The TSX V6 has got some guts to it. I don't think it gives up that much fuel economy compared to my 4cyl. I do feel the extra 200 pounds in the nose though.

Acura's lineup right now has too much overlapping. There is a mere $885 difference between the TSX V6 w/ Tech Pkg (a small percentage of TSX sales) & a TL w/ Tech Pkg (FWD). The difference between a TL (FWD, No Tech Pkg) & a TSX (4cyl) w/ Tech Pkg is $2695.

Sween & Mark have both made some excellent points regarding the TSX, the TL, & the future of Acura.

Here's what I have to say:

Acura wants to be a sport/luxury division of Honda. The TSX is a good entry level starting point. Ditch the 4cyl & make the TSX V6 the base model. Acura constantly offers $4000 incentives on the V6 model anyway, so just make that the base engine. Offset the nose heaviness with Acura's SH AWD.

Now this is easy for me to say. It does have some problems though. The TSX V6 w/ Tech Pkg weighs in at 3680 lbs. Add another 241 lbs for Acura's SH AWD system. You've got a grand total of 3921 lbs. That's a big pill to swallow for sween who thinks the base TSX is too heavy.

The other problem about making SH AWD available on the TSX is its cost. $3550 per car is what Acura charges now on a TL.

I really do LOVE Mark's idea of making SH AWD standard across the line.

More on this later.

tlong

I just can't see going 6cyl on the entry car as making any sense. It destroys the handling and further bloats up an already bloated TSX relative to the original. And even BMW is going 4cyl. Just seems like a bigger bloated entry boat of a car isn't the way to go.

nyccarguy

Acura doesn't have a weight trimming budget like BMW does. You are also forgetting that the enthusiast community as a whole makes up such a small percentage of the car buying public.

Did I notice the extra 200 lbs in the nose of my V6 TSX loaner? Yes. Would the average ELLPS buyer? No.

Would the average ELLPS buyer notice the difference between the 2.4L 4cyl & the 3.5L V6 for the same price? Yes.

Do buyers here in the northeast (a large luxury car market) consider AWD a luxury feature? Yes. Do they pay a price premium for it? Yes. Do they care that AWD adds weight? No.

nyccarguy

There's also a big difference between BMW's new blown 4 w/ an 8 speed auto and Acura's NA 4 cyl hooked up to a 5 speed automatic.

Most BMW buyers won't know their new "Bimmer" has a 4 cyl engine unless the salesman tells them.

tlong

Do buyers here in the northeast (a large luxury car market) consider AWD a luxury feature? Yes. Do they pay a price premium for it? Yes. Do they care that AWD adds weight? No.

I understand the needs for AWD in certain climates.

Acura was successful for a long time with the Integra and Legend. Then it was the TSX and TL. And now it is the fat TSX and fat TL and useless RL. The fuel economy regulations are getting tougher and tougher. BMW is going 4 cyl in the US on smaller cars. BMW and Infiniti sell a LOT of cars based upon sporty handling, which is something that Acura has lost much of in the TSX. Adding a fuel hogging 6 cyl, then throwing 200 lbs. of AWD for the *entire market* seems like the wrong direction to me for an ELLPS.

Acura must decide what it wants to be.

A luxury Subaru? - then perhaps your suggestion makes sense.
A cheaper Lexus? - keep numbing them up and improve dealer service even more.
A bargain BMW? - Sorry, they were more in that camp before the latest refreshes.

m6user

You place a lot of importance on having RWD yet you chose a car with a slushbox? I don't get it

Ask the approx 85% of BMW owners that drive automatics the same question. People can enjoy RWD with either transmission. It may be more fun to row your own for many people but not a neccesitiy to enjoy the car.

nyccarguy

Market the AWD for winter needs in the snowy climates & as a performance advantage in the areas where the weather is nice.

TSX 4cyl Automatic - 22 city / 31 highway
TSX 6cyl Automatic - 18 city / 28 highway

Driving my 4cyl & the dealer's 6cyl back to back gave me a good perspective on the strengths & weaknesses of each.

Steering - One thing I truly dislike about my 2010 TSX 4 cyl is the lifeless electric power steering. It transmits no road feel at low speeds and artificially firms up at higher speeds.

The 6 cyl is equipped with hydraulic power steering. While a little over boosted for my tastes, it is progressively linear and very smooth. I totally prefer this setup to the electric unit in my 4 cyl.

The V6 has an obvious edge in the acceleration department. Jump on the accelerator and it keeps going. I was traveling at triple digit speeds this AM berore I backed off and returned to a much more sedate 70. Passing is never a problem.

My 4 cyl's acceleration is adequate. It never feels strained. I also know how to use the engine's high RPM power band. Merging onto the highway and cruising at 80 - 90 mph aren't a problem. I have to admit that getting back into my car tonight I was disappointed after driving it's V6 cousin for a day.

Both cars ride nicely without feeling isolated.

The handling edge goes to my 4 cyl TSX hands down. While far from a dedicated RWD chassis, the TSX makes the most of its Accord platform roots. There is a lightness to it. You can feel the weight transfer going around curves.

The V6 is 200 lbs heavier & you feel the boat anchor during spirited driving. The VSA (skid control) is constantly fighting with this giant weight over the front wheels.

The TSX is definitely (IMO) a luxury, performance oriented vehicle. Having driven both the E90 BMW 3 series (in both 328 & 335 flavors) as well as the Infiniti G37X, I think there's NO argument from anybody they are the true driver's cars of the group.

I've read up and am impressed by the new Mercedes-Benz C-class reviews, but will reserve judgement until I actually get behind the wheel of one.

I think even though it is FWD, the TSX stacks up against an Audi A4 2.0T (not the $50,000 prestige with Audi's Sport Differential).

I've told you guys before, I originally bought the TSX for my wife using a cash for clunkers credit. I inherited it from her when we decided to buy a Pilot in anticipation of our 3rd child (Whitney is 3 weeks old today).

Would I have bought it for myself if I went out car shopping for my daily driver that didn't have fuel economy restrictions? It wouldn't have been my 1st choice, I'll readily admit.

Driving Dynamic wise, I'd pick the E90 3 then the G37XS sedan, & a distant 3rd would be the TSX.

I'm happy with my TSX.

fedlawman

"Ask the approx 85% of BMW owners that drive automatics the same question. People can enjoy RWD with either transmission. It may be more fun to row your own for many people but not a neccesitiy to enjoy the car."

I believe that approx 85% of BMW owners who drive automatics don't even know which wheels are being driven.

rayainsw

'I believe that approx 85% of BMW owners who drive automatics don't even know which wheels are being driven.'

My 335iS DCT 'automatic' is RWD.
- Ray
In the 15%?

kyfdx

Probably in the 15% who actually have RWD...

In this area, the vast majority of BMWs sold are AWD..

The local Infiniti dealer doesn't even stock a RWD version of any model, if it is available in AWD... So, no RWD versions of G37 sedans, etc..

markcincinnati

I agree that a large majority of folks probably don't know if their 2WD cars are front or rear drive.

I believe that folks who buy AWD are aware that all four wheels are driven -- they may or may not know if the bias is F or R, however.

With virtually every Audi and BMW now or soon to be NOT naturally aspirated and likely 2 cylinders less than previously, I suspect many folks won't know if their A4 or 3 series or A6 or 5 series is a 6 or an 8 (respectively.)

The fuel costs are probably more noticed than the # of cylinders.

It may not be accurate for the whole country, but the Audi, BMW, Infiniti, Mercedes and Volvo dealers (and the sales of CTS Cadillacs) sales are -- well over 50% AWD these days (speaking as one from SW Ohio.) The Infinity dealer, in fact, sells some 90% of the EX, FX and M class vehicles as AWD (I suspect the same is true of the G's, I have simply not bothered to check on them).

AWD for the non-purist, non-high-performance buyer is the performance option. And, of course, the two local Audi dealers basically ONLY sell quattros, to those in the know and those who don't care, period.

We long-time Audi mavens also believe that quattro is THE performance set-up, wet or dry. Locally, I can't recall the last time I saw more than a few RWD Bimmer's either (but remember we are talking about SW Ohio where we "sometimes" have a snow fall that lingers more than 24 hours.)

I have taken (four times) the Audi driving experience in Seefeld, Austria and (once) the BMW X-Drive school (here in the US -- in South Carolina), and although the "purists" who attend do proclaim RWD is the best, even they admit that BMW's are not very much fun on anything other than dry pavement, hence their purchase of an X-drive BMW and their attendance at the BMW X-Drive school.

Overall, even the driving instructors (in both schools) are converts to AWD and Torque vectoring rear diffs, since we all drive our cars on both normal and low coefficient of friction surfaces often in the same day. In the ideal world, so many speak of, "RWD rules," but perhaps since it "never rains in Southern California" RWD cars are seen as handfuls for the proletariat (those not living in SoCal.) In terms of preferences then, it seems that a lot of (the majority) folks -- if given the choice (and care) will opt for AWD, FWD and RWD in that order.

Of course, to be crystal clear, I am speaking from the point of reference of those who care to comment who live in SW Ohio, SE Indiana and Northern Kentucky.

Drive it like you live.

nyccarguy

Pretty much here in the northeast (ny, nj, ct, ma) every luxury, performance car sold is AWD. Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Infiniti, Lexus...

I've literally seen maybe 4 IS350s total since the car came out in 2006.

flightnurse

I personally would love to see Acrua drop the RDX turbo 4 into the TXS, make it run on regular fuel. It doesn't have to make the 240hp that the RDX makes, maybe 220hp with 220lbs of torque.

nyccarguy

I think Acura is dropping the turbo from the RDX. Not into the TSX, but all together. Bedsides, that Turbo 4 sucks more gas than the 3.5 L V6.

flightnurse

My 328i has the M-sport package, and I paid less then you possibly did for your IS. Also the IS isn't as balanced as the BMW, then add the M-Sport package... Resale is another big thing, I love my free maintenance and bumper to bumper warranty.

sweendogy

While I love the BMW with the m sport package - in 328 form and being an automatic it won't run with the Lexus on a straight - infact the lex would prob leave the 28 in a pool of dust to 40 mph. 335 another story - plus throw in a manual and the M and you have a car that is the standard for the class. Now the new 328 which is not out yet could be a better comp. 328 a nice ride but it's a dime a dozen with auto - just look next time your at a mall parking Lot. Lease rates for these cars are also great, remember.

sweendogy

Tsx has more problems the it's power supply - infact the standard 4 is a fine engine - it's weight and no advancing on power from that said engine. Car has blown up like rosanne bar at a free buffet- let us not forget the styling it's taken on from the ugly tl. This car, which looks to be gone soon, should shrink, which Acura looks to be doing. You can talk about adding the v6 as standard and how well it drives but the fact of the matter is Acura cannot afford to sell these v6 tsx - they are offering 4k off for a reason, no one wants them. Also why they have them as lowner cars. Sh-awd, stupid name and acronym and all is great but acura wants costs low so they get buyers invthebdoor - if the tsx becomes a 35k car no one will even look at Acura for cheap lux. Hyundai has a turbo 4 that puts Hondas turbo I shame- this company without Honda would be close to being sabb - it's bad very bad. Look at the sales numbers and the patterns- how could they introduce a new TL and it sell less cars then the year before. Honda is putting out a new cr-v this year and mark my words they will sell a boatload more of them then last year- and it was the top seller in that group- its a shame Honda does not care about this brand.

tlong

Car has blown up like rosanne bar at a free buffet- let us not forget the styling it's taken on from the ugly tl.

LOL!, but agree.

billyperksii

Sween-
First, you own a G35 and I never seen you post any news or updates about Infiniti- always pounding about Acura this Acura that. Next you keep emphasing about Acura's sales and their survival. I never once seen or heard of any Acura dealership in trouble or on the brink of Bankruptcy. Infiniti should kiss the ring on Ghosen finger because they nearly went out of business several years back.
Secondly, ALL car manufacturers offer incentives to move their inventory-the best of the best- Audi, Mecerdes, BWM. So scrap that thought process.
Third, I see tons of A4, E350, 3series and ML as loaner vechicles, so again your point with the about the TSX been offered as loaner just does not mean anything.
Can you let us know what is the latest news on the Infiniti products, try to sway some of us Acura loyalist over to the Dark Side.

markcincinnati

In my garage are two cars, one Acura and one Infiniti. For over twenty years that would have read two Audis; then for six years that read one Audi and one BMW.

My wife and I have had twenty-nine Audis, three BMW's and two VW's.

Prying German cars out of our hands was a major accomplishment for the two Japanese mfgrs noted above in the first sentence.

The latest news on Infiniti products pertains to the new JX crossover. But if you are an enthusiast this vehicle will hardly light your candle. FWD bias, CVT transmission and a sub-300 hp 3.5L V6. Although the vehicle impresses visually (and yes I'll grant that is subjective) and has gobs of passenger room, it strikes me as Infiniti's Acadia. Yawn.

I have been searching for an update to the "aging" (my words) G line, but have found nothing that even smells like a future product direction. I would hope, however, that the G grows in width to, say, A4 dimensions. It strikes me as a bit odd that the TL from Acura has a shorter wheelbase than either the A4 or the G37, but only the G feels cramped inside. If I can sit in the driver's seat and reach across to the passenger's window, I feel the vehicle is too narrow (for its length) in the ELLPS class. The A4 has grown in wheelbase, length and width (with a slight increase in legroom), as has the upcoming BMW 3 -- and the TL is damn near 5 series or A6 size. The G, for me, makes me feel like a bug.

When I get behind the wheel of a G, I feel like I did the first time I got into a Ford Econoline van, I mean I feel like I am sitting on the front bumper.

Now, the Infiniti in my garage is a 2011 FX35 Premium in black gloss with a java interior. I feel like I am piloting the hulk when I drive it. It feels big, powerful, broad shouldered and nimble all at the same time. I also got that feeling from my many test drives of an M37X. I would have had an M were it not for the requirement to buy a $3,000 option package just to get blind spot warning.

I would suspect little will change for a few more years in the M's, since they are only 2 MY old. The corporate grill that has been added to the FX's makes me believe that the FX line will be refreshed perhaps in '13 or '14 MY. And, I assume the G's are due for a refresh in less than or equal to 24 months.

Driving Audis, BMWs and Infinitis, I can tell you that the phrase Japanese BMW is an appropriate descriptive term for Infiniti. Infiniti seems to be striving for that certain something that makes a BMW stand out.

Acura, based on my limited experience with the brand, on the other hand, seems to be -- sort of, kind of, er, a little bit like -- the Japanese Audi (from a few years ago) in that they don't hide their Honda-ness any better than Audi used to hide its VW parentage. If Acura were to ditch the Honda "tells" ASAP and make the Acura brand "stand alone" (as Audi has done from VW), they would be making great strides in establishing some kind of unique brand identity (which is largely lacking, currently.)

Of course, it also wouldn't hurt one little bit if Acura would hire a designer or three away from one of the companies that make real purty 'sheens.

Hardly the "latest news" since it is difficult to get news out of Infiniti from any reliable source, but, that's it!

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, etc.

Drive it like you live.

:shades:

nyccarguy

Styling is a matter of opinion. I happen to LOVE the styling of the E60 5 series which so many detest. I do however want to talk about how the TSX is "bloated."

According to edmunds.com

2008 Acura TSX w/ tech pkg & 5 speed automatic weighs 3356 lbs & is 183.5" long.
2011 Acura TSX w/ tech pkg & 5 speed automatic weighs 3470 lbs & is 185.6" long.

Acura added a whopping 114 lbs & 2.1" to the TSX.

While we are on the subject of size, a G37X (according to infinitiusa.com) weighs 3822 lbs & is 187.9" long.

flightnurse

The turbo 4 in the RDX is a high pressure turbo, this is one reason why it doesn't get good mileage. I'm saying the engine should be a low pressure turbo engine, direct injection. This would give more power, more torque and better MPG. This would transform the TSX into a more lively car to drive.

flightnurse

Not all races are won in a straight line, and yes the IS350 is faster, however any BMW 3 series with the M Sport Package is a far better handling car. Currently BMW is not producing any Manuel 3 series cars (except M3.) For me the IS250/350 is a nice car, too small for me, and the rear seat is too cramped to have anyone then a kid back there.

flightnurse

Mark, why do you start all of your post with, I have owned 29 Audi's? I mean, who cares... You do not need to restate how many cars you have owned in the past, we get it, you have owned a lot of Audi's....

rayainsw

'Currently BMW is not producing any Manuel 3 series cars (except M3.) '
??
Build Your Own [ still ] shows a the M6 as standard here:

2012 335is Coupe Standard Features

Performance and efficiency
• 3.0-liter dual overhead cam (DOHC), 24-valve inline turbocharged 320-horsepower 6-cylinder engine with TwinPower Turbo technology and Double-VANOS steplessly variable valve timing
• Electronic throttle control
• 6-speed manual transmission

... for one example . . .
- Ray
Drives an M-Sport 3... but with DCT

sweendogy

billy your joking right??
1) infiniti G was the class leader in hp when they redid it in 07.. 2 years later they blow out another 30 hp into the engine- they have added a sport package in 08 , new coupe they added in 08 - a convertable in 09, a cheaper G25 (which i hate) plus now the IS line - thats just the G we are talking about--lets not forget about adding the 7 speed transmission in 09 which acura just added a new transmission this year ... Infiniti made a gamble with the G and it turned out - Please look at acura sales numbers and tell me again they are not struggling.. Again they sold less TL's the year they changed the body then the year before.

2) no idea what your talking about- i think we can all agree why cars are offered with incentives

3) My loaner comment was based on the fact it was a V6 TSX. not a TSX.

4) you can use google to find out what car companies are going with products- I know infiniti had gone to bed with MB on an engine which might be in the next G and that worries me.. another thing is the new truck thats coming is a FWD platform which again worries me. I think if infiniti wants to keep its traction is going to have to release a car in the next 2 years as BMW is going live on a new 3 for 2012..

markcincinnati

Point of reference. From time to time, I read one poster's statement -- usually negative -- pertaining to a car or brand. Several posts later another poster challenges what the original poster said and asks if the original poster owns or has ever extensively driven the vehicle that is being trashed. Often the original poster will own up to not actually having any real hands on experience with the object of his or her ire.

I may comment on a Lexus or a Volvo -- but I would be a poser; I have test driven the S60 twice, I have not driven a Lexus of any flavor, but I have been a passenger a few times in the largest Lexus on the market (LS?)

New names appear all the time on this and the other places I post -- I can't keep up with who is a new and who is an old participant.

When I read posts that make what are presented as facts (or near-facts), I determine their veracity based on the poster's frame of reference.

Every post does not need to establish "your" background -- but, from time to time, refreshing the reader's memory as to where you are coming from, increases my interest in and the value of your post's point.

Finally, in my experience, revealing something about your ownership history, will also tend to suggest how your thoughts might be weighted or biased.

I'll try to keep my re-posts of my auto ownership to a minimum. I am, however, certain, I will either make a statement or correct another's and be challenged (for instance on my "bias" for RWD biased AWD that employs torque vectoring, and, if possible, a TorSen differential.) After so many Audis and so many driving schools, I feel up to the task of arguing what, how and why in response to a factual irregularity that may be made on the subject.

I'll offer you my apology and, as I said, try to keep repeating my auto history to a minimum. :surprise: