Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

benjaminh

In the unlikely event anyone here would consider an Acura TLX as their entry-level luxury car, right now Edmunds is offering an exclusive $1500 incentive on that car. Once that's applied, I think someone could get a base 2016 TLX for close to the price of an Accord EXL, c. 26k. I considered this option, but ultimately decided the Accord EX was good enough for me, and it can be had for c. 3k less. Anyway, below, I think, is a link for the TLX incentive...

http://www.edmunds.com/elp/acura/ilx/offer/?fromIframe=true

stickguy

I am considering it. In 15 months. Not sure it will last that long.

flightnurse

BMW currently has some insane residual value on leases of 2016 5 series. 67% on 10K/36 month lease, 66% on a 12K/36 and 65% on 15K/36 month,

Michaell

flightnurse said:

BMW currently has some insane residual value on leases of 2016 5 series. 67% on 10K/36 month lease, 66% on a 12K/36 and 65% on 15K/36 month,

And if you use MSD to buy down the MF, you can end up with a pretty amazing lease payment.

roadburner

In a bit over two months I'll have 90 days in, so I'm hoping BMW FS still has some attractive leases on something I find interesting...

tlong

Re: the TLX, I had a 2005 TL that I sold recently at 156K miles. The TLX is the newer incarnation of that car, and with the somewhat improved appearance, I'm wondering why it seems the TLX doesn't sell anything like the '04-10-ish one did. I know it got ugly with the beak but it seems that it is at least decent looking now.

Has the market changed? Are we just bored with cars now? Or is it the looks as IMHO the TLX is still not as good looking as that vintage TL. It seems those mid-year TLs were everywhere and it was a hot seller, but I don't think so any more. And the ILX seems like even more of a bomb. Poor Acura is not doing so well these days.

benjaminh

tlong said:

Re: the TLX, I had a 2005 TL that I sold recently at 156K miles. The TLX is the newer incarnation of that car, and with the somewhat improved appearance, I'm wondering why it seems the TLX doesn't sell anything like the '04-10-ish one did. I know it got ugly with the beak but it seems that it is at least decent looking now.

Has the market changed? Are we just bored with cars now? Or is it the looks as IMHO the TLX is still not as good looking as that vintage TL. It seems those mid-year TLs were everywhere and it was a hot seller, but I don't think so any more. And the ILX seems like even more of a bomb. Poor Acura is not doing so well these days.

I think there are multiple things going on when it comes to the weak sales of the TLX. Like you, I think it has good styling, but probably for some it still seems to be a bit bland.

The base engine is a very nice 2.4 liter direct-injected model that's a more advanced version of what you get on the Accord. But most competitors have turbo base models that are faster.

The 8-speed in-house dual-clutch transmission on the TLX with the 2.4 has gotten mostly good reviews, but the 9-speed that goes with the V-6 has gotten mixed to negative reviews.

Acura doesn't seem to get much credit for its high quality, durability, and reliability. And the exotic 4-wheel steering that's standard on the car doesn't seem to help it stand out, but no doubt cost a pretty penny to engineer and put into the car.

Finally, the Accord now has AndroidAuto/AppleCarPlay, but the TLX isn't scheduled to get that until the early introduction of the restyled and enhanced TLX that's coming next year as a 2018 model.

kyfdx

I think that's it. They thought they could cover both the TL and the TSX market with one car, two different engines, but it's not working.

graphicguy

kyfdx said:

I think that's it. They thought they could cover both the TL and the TSX market with one car, two different engines, but it's not working.

Agreed. Plus, the Accord has now started knipping at the heals of the TLX. Acura's cars in their most recent iterations have been hit and miss. ILX, TLX, RLX (especially the RLX) have missed their respective marks, badly.

I still like the TLX (and all of my previous TLs). But, given the transmission woes, and that just about every other lux manufacturer out there offers AWD and some sort of torque vectoring system, which was at one time unique to the TL (and some Audis), isn't so unique any more.

I know holding the prices on the TLX trasnlates into higher resale value, but it's hurting their sales on the new end.

Let's face it, Acura is becoming more an SUV company than a car company.

Mr_Shiftright

Michaell said:

flightnurse said:

BMW currently has some insane residual value on leases of 2016 5 series. 67% on 10K/36 month lease, 66% on a 12K/36 and 65% on 15K/36 month,

And if you use MSD to buy down the MF, you can end up with a pretty amazing lease payment.

Yeah, but doesn't MSD sort of contradict why you lease in the first place?

kyfdx

Mr_Shiftright said:

Michaell said:

flightnurse said:

BMW currently has some insane residual value on leases of 2016 5 series. 67% on 10K/36 month lease, 66% on a 12K/36 and 65% on 15K/36 month,

And if you use MSD to buy down the MF, you can end up with a pretty amazing lease payment.

Yeah, but doesn't MSD sort of contradict why you lease in the first place?

Sort of... but, you get the money back at lease end. It's too good of a deal to pass up, in most cases. (even if the purpose of a lease is to not tie up a wad of cash).

dino001

Mr_Shiftright said:

Michaell said:

flightnurse said:

BMW currently has some insane residual value on leases of 2016 5 series. 67% on 10K/36 month lease, 66% on a 12K/36 and 65% on 15K/36 month,

And if you use MSD to buy down the MF, you can end up with a pretty amazing lease payment.

Yeah, but doesn't MSD sort of contradict why you lease in the first place?

Not really. Since it's a deposit, you get the money back. Since it lowers the MF, it can be seen as earning interest on the money. So if you take 7xSD, lowering MF on the entire lease amount, you essentially leveraged say 3 grand to reduce interest on say 30-40 grand (average capital cost between purchase and disposition). Translate that money back and you won't get anywhere near interest in a bank, if you keep the money. MSD is nothing like putting money down (cap cost reduction). Not even close. Don't put money down on lease, but MSD - good deal, IMHO.

qbrozen

flightnurse said:

BMW currently has some insane residual value on leases of 2016 5 series. 67% on 10K/36 month lease, 66% on a 12K/36 and 65% on 15K/36 month,

3 whole years with the same car? Perish the thought.

graphicguy

I like seeing old reviews by MotorWeek. Found this one last night. Seems as if Acura's current perceived value issues have deep roots.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y9mOYz8Y28

andres3

tlong said:

Re: the TLX, I had a 2005 TL that I sold recently at 156K miles. The TLX is the newer incarnation of that car, and with the somewhat improved appearance, I'm wondering why it seems the TLX doesn't sell anything like the '04-10-ish one did. I know it got ugly with the beak but it seems that it is at least decent looking now.

Has the market changed? Are we just bored with cars now? Or is it the looks as IMHO the TLX is still not as good looking as that vintage TL. It seems those mid-year TLs were everywhere and it was a hot seller, but I don't think so any more. And the ILX seems like even more of a bomb. Poor Acura is not doing so well these days.

Well, the '04+ TL was many great things:

1) A Power leader at 270 HP V6 3.2 Standard - In later years that became a 3.5 and 3.7 with good numbers.
2) Was a very good looking sedan with a nice interior.
3) Class-leading super modern audio DVD-audio playing music system (that's special and rare).
4) Handled really well.

The TLX currently in my opinion is:

1) Pretty bland; no visible exhaust either
2) A bottom feeder for power with either engine (as compared to the competition). They don't even offer a 3.7 anymore!
3) If the Audio systems still plays DVD-A discs I'd be surprised pleasantly, I don't know? I know the '14 TL did still play DVD Audio discs.
4) Handling is adequate but not particularly great.

flightnurse

Michaell said:

And if you use MSD to buy down the MF, you can end up with a pretty amazing lease payment.

Yes, this is a great way to lower payments, however, more people don't have an extra 4K sitting around.

flightnurse

Mr_Shiftright said:

Yeah, but doesn't MSD sort of contradict why you lease in the first place?

You get the MSD back at the end of your lease, PLUS save about $50/m on your lease, so that averages out about $1900 on a 3 yr lease. So it's a win/win for you and BMW gets to use the MSD for 3 yrs. You are buying down the money factor of your lease, this where is where you get the saving from.

brian125

If I remember correctly. Buying 1 MSD point down up to Seven is .000007 going to 000049 on the MF. The only Cons I see is coming up with the extra cash. If your car is totaled or stolen that money is still secure. If you flip your vehicle before lease is up who ever assumes it has to pay you your MSD money. Where can you make 1500 to 2000 dollars profit on that initial upfront investment in 3 yrs?? Its a good deal

kyfdx

brian125 said:

If I remember correctly. Buying 1 MSD point down up to Seven is .000007 going to 000049 on the MF. The only Cons I see is coming up with the extra cash. If your car is totaled or stolen that money is still secure. If you flip your vehicle before lease is up who ever assumes it has to pay you your MSD money. Where can you make 1500 to 2000 dollars profit on that initial upfront investment in 3 yrs?? Its a good deal

That's correct on a BMW, just take one zero out of each number. .00007 and .00049
Also correct on having someone assume your lease. They have to reimburse you for the MSDs.

dino001

flightnurse said:

Michaell said:

And if you use MSD to buy down the MF, you can end up with a pretty amazing lease payment.

Yes, this is a great way to lower payments, however, more people don't have an extra 4K sitting around.

Well, not to sound too "judgmental", but I truly think somebody who can't come up with 4 grand, has no business shopping a 50 grand vehicle. This is to me something of category of complaining about premium gas on a luxury car. But that's probably just my weird math sense.

Also, it's just plain good savings. Not artificially on payment, like cap cost reduction, but real savings on total amount of money paid out of your pocket. If you do math correctly, that 0.00049 MF on 50K car with 25K residual (not so great one) saves you 0.00049*(50K+25K) times 36 (typical 36 month lease with not-so-hot residual) is 1300, give or take, more if the residual is higher. Who would pay you 1300-1500 bucks on 4 grand over three years???

It's probably one of the best guaranteed rate of return in zero-interest environment (adjusted for risk, of course). It of course is not a real rate of return, just savings in interest charges (or their equivalents in lease).

If you lease, MSD is the way to go, period. There are no excuses. The lower payment is just a side benefit.

Michaell

dino001 said:

flightnurse said:

Michaell said:

And if you use MSD to buy down the MF, you can end up with a pretty amazing lease payment.

Yes, this is a great way to lower payments, however, more people don't have an extra 4K sitting around.

Well, not to sound too "judgmental", but I truly think somebody who can't come up with 4 grand, has no business shopping a 50 grand vehicle. This is to me something of category of complaining about premium gas on a luxury car. But that's probably just my weird math sense.

Also, it's just plain good savings. Not artificially on payment, like cap cost reduction, but real savings on total amount of money paid out of your pocket. If you do math correctly, that 0.00049 MF on 50K car with 25K residual (not so great one) saves you 0.00049*(50K+25K) times 36 (typical 36 month lease with not-so-hot residual) is 1300, give or take, more if the residual is higher. Who would pay you 1300-1500 bucks on 4 grand over three years???

It's probably one of the best guaranteed rate of return in zero-interest environment (adjusted for risk, of course). It of course is not a real rate of return, just savings in interest charges (or their equivalents in lease).

If you lease, MSD is the way to go, period. There are no excuses. The lower payment is just a side benefit.

Exactly. The problem is, not all manufacturers offer MSD for leases. A quick summary - and I'll let @kyfdx chime in if my information is incorrect.

BMW - 7 MSDs at .00007 each - total MF reduction of .00049
Audi - 10 MSDs at .00005 each - total MF reduction of .00050
Lexus - 9 MSDs at .00008 each - total MF reduction of .00072
MB - no hard evidence on this; have had folks report that MSDs are only allowed on unsupported MF (standard MF is .00200 - .00220), but others have said otherwise

No MSD program for Infiniti or Acura. No information on Jaguar.

No MSD programs for any of the domestic brands.

kyfdx

Infiniti: 9 MSDs at .00010 each (.00090 total)

brian125

You would be foolish to lease one of these brands and not take full advantage of the savings. Depending on the MB dealer most are supported who offer MSD.

flightnurse

dino001 said:

flightnurse said:

Michaell said:

And if you use MSD to buy down the MF, you can end up with a pretty amazing lease payment.

Yes, this is a great way to lower payments, however, more people don't have an extra 4K sitting around.

Well, not to sound too "judgmental", but I truly think somebody who can't come up with 4 grand, has no business shopping a 50 grand vehicle. This is to me something of category of complaining about premium gas on a luxury car. But that's probably just my weird math sense.

Also, it's just plain good savings. Not artificially on payment, like cap cost reduction, but real savings on total amount of money paid out of your pocket. If you do math correctly, that 0.00049 MF on 50K car with 25K residual (not so great one) saves you 0.00049*(50K+25K) times 36 (typical 36 month lease with not-so-hot residual) is 1300, give or take, more if the residual is higher. Who would pay you 1300-1500 bucks on 4 grand over three years???

It's probably one of the best guaranteed rate of return in zero-interest environment (adjusted for risk, of course). It of course is not a real rate of return, just savings in interest charges (or their equivalents in lease).

If you lease, MSD is the way to go, period. There are no excuses. The lower payment is just a side benefit.

Dino it is being judgmental, but many people would agree with you, on BF some 23 yr old out of college wanting to lease a new 340i, his payments are $600/m cough.... Should he have gotten that car, no, but no one was going to stop him, and BMWFS sure wasn't..

The average saving is roughly $1900 on a course of a lease, however, to really save that money one needs to take that $50 you save a month and place it into a saving account so at the end of that 3 yr lease you have that money.

flightnurse

Michaell said:

Exactly. The problem is, not all manufacturers offer MSD for leases. A quick summary - and I'll let @kyfdx chime in if my information is incorrect.

BMW - 7 MSDs at .00007 each - total MF reduction of .00049
Audi - 10 MSDs at .00005 each - total MF reduction of .00050
Lexus - 9 MSDs at .00008 each - total MF reduction of .00072
MB - no hard evidence on this; have had folks report that MSDs are only allowed on unsupported MF (standard MF is .00200 - .00220), but others have said otherwise

No MSD program for Infiniti or Acura. No information on Jaguar.

No MSD programs for any of the domestic brands.

MB has MSD, but they aren't offered in all states, just like Audi as well as BMW.

Jag currently does not offer that since all preferred leases go through Chase. I'm sure once Jag sets up a bank here in the states, they will offer MSD's.

flightnurse

brian125 said:

You would be foolish to lease one of these brands and not take full advantage of the savings. Depending on the MB dealer most are supported who offer MSD.

This is true, however, there are people who don't have 4K sitting around in a bank.

andres3

flightnurse said:

brian125 said:

You would be foolish to lease one of these brands and not take full advantage of the savings. Depending on the MB dealer most are supported who offer MSD.

This is true, however, there are people who don't have 4K sitting around in a bank.

What is the average monthly car payment nationwide? For both leases and buyers? I bet it wouldn't take a year of saving car payments to save up that $4K for most people.

flightnurse

andres3 said:

What is the average monthly car payment nationwide? For both leases and buyers? I bet it wouldn't take a year of saving car payments to save up that $4K for most people.

According to Edmunds.com, the average monthly payment on a new vehicle is $479. IF one wanted to make money on about 4K, one would use MSD's and save $50/m which is about 1900 on a three year lease. I can tell you one could get a nice 528i for $480/m with the currently RV that BMWFS is giving...

dino001

flightnurse said:

Dino it is being judgmental, but many people would agree with you, on BF some 23 yr old out of college wanting to lease a new 340i, his payments are $600/m cough.... Should he have gotten that car, no, but no one was going to stop him, and BMWFS sure wasn't..

The average saving is roughly $1900 on a course of a lease, however, to really save that money one needs to take that $50 you save a month and place it into a saving account so at the end of that 3 yr lease you have that money.

Right is right, that's why I wrote "too judgmental". Anyway, one can do whatever they want, but I can also voice my opinion about the action. I just don't want to hear their complaints about Bush, Obama, bankers, Wall Street, or global warming next time their life and income prospects turn less then anticipated.

BTW, last thing a 23 yo needs is 340i, but surely if they want to spend their ćurrent and future last dime, nobody other than their family or loving friends, should stop them. Surely not BMWFS, as long ad they meet the criteria. That much I agree.

Mr_Shiftright

flightnurse said:

brian125 said:

You would be foolish to lease one of these brands and not take full advantage of the savings. Depending on the MB dealer most are supported who offer MSD.

This is true, however, there are people who don't have 4K sitting around in a bank.

I remember that Forbes, some time ago, did a survey asking American families if they would go into crisis if one month's salary failed to arrive. The response was very unsettling.

brian125

Probably just as bad today if not worse.

flightnurse

2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2017-alfa-romeo-giulia-11-important-questions-feature?mag=cdb&list=nl_dvr_news&src=nl&date=072816

I can't wait for it to hit the showroom!

First Drive

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-alfa-romeo-giulia-quadrifoglio-first-drive-review

benjaminh

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160808/RETAIL07/308089966/dealer-groups-open-fire-on-cadillac-retail-plan

"Some state dealer groups are demanding that Cadillac scrap its controversial new dealer-incentive program, Project Pinnacle, claiming brand chief Johan de Nysschen's vision for transforming the retail network would violate franchise agreements and intentionally cull smaller stores.

In a sharply worded letter to de Nysschen dated Aug. 3 and obtained by Automotive News, seven state dealer association heads say Project Pinnacle would create several tiers of "effective pricing," as Cad-illac funnels a disproportionate amount of money to larger, urban stores that are better able to make pricey investments in services such as complimentary roadside assistance.

Project Pinnacle "picks winners and losers," the letter says. "The winners can make the required investments and prosper. The other dealers face business failure."

(more at the link)

graphicguy

benjaminh said:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160808/RETAIL07/308089966/dealer-groups-open-fire-on-cadillac-retail-plan

"Some state dealer groups are demanding that Cadillac scrap its controversial new dealer-incentive program, Project Pinnacle, claiming brand chief Johan de Nysschen's vision for transforming the retail network would violate franchise agreements and intentionally cull smaller stores.

In a sharply worded letter to de Nysschen dated Aug. 3 and obtained by Automotive News, seven state dealer association heads say Project Pinnacle would create several tiers of "effective pricing," as Cad-illac funnels a disproportionate amount of money to larger, urban stores that are better able to make pricey investments in services such as complimentary roadside assistance.

Project Pinnacle "picks winners and losers," the letter says. "The winners can make the required investments and prosper. The other dealers face business failure."

(more at the link)

Maybe that's Cadillac's intent....to cut away more marginal dealers who can't/won't offer a higher level of customer service.

roadburner

Auto dealers have a huge of influence at the state and Federal level. For better or worse it makes it difficult for automakers to bring their dealers to heel.

dino001

I have always maintained Cadillac's dealer network is waaaay too big and does not fit a premium image they want to project. In small and midsize towns, local Chevy or Buick dealer also got a Caddy franchise, so they could sell them to small local business people and their families - model that worked in 70s, when German competition was small and super-exquisite (Benz only sold what today would have been loaded E-class or up, at price point equivalent to today's S-Class) and Japanese brands were literally non-existent.

In today's world with all-out competition in premium at all levels, it simply doesn't cut it - the accessibility is a good thing, but in today's reality it collides too much with exclusivity they wish to project. They'd do better if they pulled sales franchises from those weak dealers, but supplied them with authorized service licenses.

Essentially, you buy your Caddy in a big showroom, comparable to those of MB, BMW, or Lexus, in a nearby big city, but can service it at a local Buick dealer garage, provided it passes the necessary requirements. That model might actually work. In Europe they generally have denser authorized service network than sales. American model somehow is such that if you want to service a brand, you have to sell it, too. No real reason for that, other than "tradition".

roadburner

My BMW dealer is setting up a satellite location to sell and service CPO cars- although service for other BMWs will still be offered there, the focus will be on CPO cars.

dino001

The issue is, a non-related entity could also offer authorized service, at least in theory. Service does not have to be tied to sales. In this case, a Buick dealer could offer Cadillac service in small town. Or even it could be an completely independent provider, as long as the certification process is transparent and demanding enough. Unless there are some franchise laws, preventing such decoupling. Looking what kind of BS Tesla faced in some states, you never know.

stever

A reporter would like to talk with drivers who frequently have to deal with wind throb -- i.e. the sound that occurs when you have a rear window down and the front window up. If you'd like to share your experience, please reach out to pr@edmunds.com by no later than August 8, 2016.

flightnurse

So here is the first car from Hyundai new product line Genesis, impressive, but I think they have missed the mark on a few things, some of the switch gear looks like it came from an accent..

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-genesis-g90-first-drive-review?mag=cdb&list=nl_dvr_news&src=nl&date=081716

stickguy

quite a large boat. Definitely won't be on my shopping list.

Michaell

stickguy said:

quite a large boat. Definitely won't be on my shopping list.

And, with a starting price north of $60K, probably out of your budget, too.

stickguy

well yeah, unless they want to lease me one for $300/mo. S&D, just to get some on the road.

kyfdx

stickguy said:

well yeah, unless they want to lease me one for $300/mo. S&D, just to get some on the road.

I can't see why they would turn that deal down!

Mr_Shiftright

I'm guessing they will depreciate heavily, so if you want one, just hang out a few years.

stickguy

well, I do like to think of myself as a trend setter. So maybe if I offer to put a decal on it, and talk it up here?

brian125

flightnurse said:

So here is the first car from Hyundai new product line Genesis, impressive, but I think they have missed the mark on a few things, some of the switch gear looks like it came from an accent..

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-genesis-g90-first-drive-review?mag=cdb&list=nl_dvr_news&src=nl&date=081716

My neighbor just bought a loaded 2016 V-6 Genesis . The new electronic 3 mode suspension is Eon's better than my 13 R-Spec Genesis. She is coming out of a 2012 E350. She loves the Genesis . I have 15k on mine and really enjoy this 429 h/p RWD model. Hyundai's 17 speaker 7.1 surround sound Lexicon system is special. Maybe a tab below the Levinson or Acura's ELS system. . I would consider buying a left over 2017 or CPO at the end of 2017. I would go for the V-6 that's plenty fast for me these days

tlong

Mr_Shiftright said:

I'm guessing they will depreciate heavily, so if you want one, just hang out a few years.

What does a well-used Phateon go for these days? Lol.

nyccarguy

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

quite a large boat. Definitely won't be on my shopping list.

And, with a starting price north of $60K, probably out of your budget, too.

my budget, your budget, & @stickguy's budget - still out

Michaell

nyccarguy said:

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

quite a large boat. Definitely won't be on my shopping list.

And, with a starting price north of $60K, probably out of your budget, too.

my budget, your budget, & @stickguy's budget - still out

True enough.