Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

brian125

nyccarguy said:

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

quite a large boat. Definitely won't be on my shopping list.

And, with a starting price north of $60K, probably out of your budget, too.

my budget, your budget, & @stickguy's budget - still out

I bet if you guys stop going threw cars like I do underwear you can buy a 60k vehicle.

Last time I checked the Chronic Car buyers Rehab forum @nyccarguy, @stickguy, @micheall, wanted and probably got talked out of buying about 5 different vehicles they like that day. Today was a whole different round of pleasures. Carry on

stickguy

Well, can, and would, are not the same thing.

Ands what's wrong with a short attention span!

Michaell

Hey, I resemble that remark!

And, @brian125, I have a lease that is coming due, so I will almost certainly be in the market at that time. At the moment, just spitballing ideas over in CCBA.

flightnurse

Here is a short review of the 2017 MB E300.. 70K for this car...

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017- mercedes-benz-e300-4matic-test-review?mag=cdb&list=nl_dvr_news&src=nl&date=082616

Mr_Shiftright

Looks like that link is funky....try this one

2017 MB E300 Test Drive

flightnurse

Mr_Shiftright said:

Looks like that link is funky....try this one

2017 MB E300 Test Drive

Not too sure what happened, but here is the link from the current test drive of the online C&D.

caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-mercedes-benz-e300-4matic-test-review?mag=cdb&list=nl_dvr_news&src=nl&date=082616

flightnurse

So what has happened to everybody?

Here is a review of the new MB E43, I like how MB is offering a AMG without the high strung V8..

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-mercedes-amg-e43-first-drive-review

Sandman6472

Might sound dumb, but what are MSD'S? Have no clue what these are since we've never leased. Please educate me on these.

The Sandman

qbrozen

Multiple security deposits

flightnurse

sandman_6472 said:

Might sound dumb, but what are MSD'S? Have no clue what these are since we've never leased. Please educate me on these.

The Sandman

MSD's mean Multi Security Deposits, we are taught that when leasing one should never put any money down. However, with MSD, you are basically buying down the money factor (APR) of the lease, which means lowerimg your monthly payment. At the end of your lease you will get your MSD's back or if you want and lease another BMW you can roll the MSD's into your new lease. The added saving for a typical 3 yr lease is about $1900.

Mr_Shiftright

And the benefits to the leasing company are what exactly?....that you get someone to lease who might not have? Or get them into a more expensive lease rather than the one they first chose prior to the MSD bait?

flightnurse

Mr_Shiftright said:

And the benefits to the leasing company are what exactly?....that you get someone to lease who might not have? Or get them into a more expensive lease rather than the one they first chose prior to the MSD bait?

The benefit isn't to the leasing company, and those who understand leasing and can negotiate well, can get a better deal with the MSD, then without.

Mr_Shiftright

So who does it benefit, is what I'm asking? Why create a system that makes less profit?

Michaell

Mr_Shiftright said:

So who does it benefit, is what I'm asking? Why create a system that makes less profit?

The leasing company gets the use of the MSD funds for the duration of the lease. Add it up and you can make a decent amount of money if you invest it right. 

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, so they get the "float". I suppose if their money rate is 2.5%, then they can beat that by investing your money elsewhere.

MSDs weren't created for the benefit of mankind. I was just curious where the profit was.

dino001

Mr_Shiftright said:

Ah, so they get the "float". I suppose if their money rate is 2.5%, then they can beat that by investing your money elsewhere.

MSDs weren't created for the benefit of mankind. I was just curious where the profit was.

Like in every transaction, both sides get a benefit, or they at least think they do, since it's voluntary. Here, the lesee exchanges cash for lower cost of borrowing (money factor, by extension lower payment). In some way, it's similar to points on mortgage, but temporary, not permanent.

The lessor's benefit is cash today, which they can dispose as they see fit. Being a financial intitution, they are allowed to leverage that money to raise even more funds. Another benefit is more general, i.e. possible increase in product sales. Notice it's offered only by financial arms of some manufacturers.

m6user

It's kind of like collateral.  Less risk for lender equals a liitle lower rate in addition to use of funds.

roadburner

If I max out the MSDs I can get a 24 month/10,000 miles per year lease on a 2016 i3 REX for less than $90 per month with no money down.

Michaell

roadburner said:

If I max out the MSDs I can get a 24 month/10,000 miles per year lease on a 2016 i3 REX for less than $90 per month with no money down.

Yeah, I figured you could score an amazing lease deal as an employee. That's a $50k car, right?

roadburner

Michaell said:

roadburner said:

If I max out the MSDs I can get a 24 month/10,000 miles per year lease on a 2016 i3 REX for less than $90 per month with no money down.

Yeah, I figured you could score an amazing lease deal as an employee. That's a $50k car, right?

Yep; I could also get a 2016 M3 lease on the same terms for about $600/month.

Michaell

roadburner said:

Michaell said:

roadburner said:

If I max out the MSDs I can get a 24 month/10,000 miles per year lease on a 2016 i3 REX for less than $90 per month with no money down.

Yeah, I figured you could score an amazing lease deal as an employee. That's a $50k car, right?

Yep; I could also get a 2016 M3 lease on the same terms for about $600/month.

So what qualifications does one need to be a genius at a BMW store?

graphicguy

Michaell said:

roadburner said:

Michaell said:

roadburner said:

If I max out the MSDs I can get a 24 month/10,000 miles per year lease on a 2016 i3 REX for less than $90 per month with no money down.

Yeah, I figured you could score an amazing lease deal as an employee. That's a $50k car, right?

Yep; I could also get a 2016 M3 lease on the same terms for about $600/month.

So what qualifications does one need to be a genius at a BMW store?

You must be a judge, or at least, a lawyer.

kyfdx

Mr_Shiftright said:

Ah, so they get the "float". I suppose if their money rate is 2.5%, then they can beat that by investing your money elsewhere.

MSDs weren't created for the benefit of mankind. I was just curious where the profit was.

Some programs are anomalies and counter-intuitive.
MSDs just happen to be one of those programs. It's a net win for the customer, every time. It's overly generous for the amount of capital you have to put up. (so, don't tell anyone.. lol)

Mr_Shiftright

Michaell said:

roadburner said:

If I max out the MSDs I can get a 24 month/10,000 miles per year lease on a 2016 i3 REX for less than $90 per month with no money down.

Yeah, I figured you could score an amazing lease deal as an employee. That's a $50k car, right?

What do the max MSDs total out as?

kyfdx

Mr_Shiftright said:

Michaell said:

roadburner said:

If I max out the MSDs I can get a 24 month/10,000 miles per year lease on a 2016 i3 REX for less than $90 per month with no money down.

Yeah, I figured you could score an amazing lease deal as an employee. That's a $50k car, right?

What do the max MSDs total out as?

It's the monthly payment rounded up to the next $50 increment times 7.

So, if you already have a super-cheap employee lease deal, the amount won't be very high.
And, refundable, of course, so the only thing you are giving up is opportunity cost on the money.

Mr_Shiftright

So, couple thousand?

kyfdx

Mr_Shiftright said:

So, couple thousand?

I leased a 2011 Z4 service loaner for $335/mo, all in. Seven MSDs were $2450. Save $46/mo. on a 24 month lease. (insanely cheap lease... original MSRP of $55K)

Leased a 2011 Infiniti G37 for $378/mo., all in. Nine MSDs were $4050. (Infiniti uses the pre-discounted MF payment to assess the security deposit amount). Saved $61/mo. on a 36 month lease.

Michaell

Mr_Shiftright said:

So, couple thousand?

If the lease payment is $350, then $2450 total. 

flightnurse

roadburner said:

If I max out the MSDs I can get a 24 month/10,000 miles per year lease on a 2016 i3 REX for less than $90 per month with no money down.

On Bimmerfest I'm seeing people posting leases on a i3REX for $189/m That is with max MSD's and min down (tax, Doc, 1st pmt)

roadburner

Michaell said:

So what qualifications does one need to be a genius at a BMW store?

This page gives a pretty good overview.
I just returned from the mandatory one week instructor led training; there's a strong emphasis on product knowledge as well as how to relate to the clients that we work with. I don't fit the typical genius profile due to the fact that I'm retired from my "real" job and thus I'm considerably older; In my class of twenty the next oldest person was about ten years younger than me and the rest were in their early to mid twenties. In addition; I have no interest in a promotion to client advisor or service advisor- although I did "sell" a CPO i3 yesterday in that I conducted the presentation and evaluation drive so that the client advisor was able to close the deal in just a few minutes.

flightnurse

Mr_Shiftright said:

Michaell said:

roadburner said:

If I max out the MSDs I can get a 24 month/10,000 miles per year lease on a 2016 i3 REX for less than $90 per month with no money down.

Yeah, I figured you could score an amazing lease deal as an employee. That's a $50k car, right?

What do the max MSDs total out as?

Here is a deal someone posted on Bimmerfest.

How's this deal?
2016 340i - Black sapphire exterior with the coral red interior. M Sport package, tech package, cold weather package, Driver assistance package.
MSRP: $59515
Selling Price: $54230. Thats about 9% off MSRP. Sales rep said it was $1k below invoice
MF 0.00088 with 3.5K in MSDs
1.5k in taxes, $925 acq fee, misc dmv fees, luxury tax, and first payment = another 3.5k

term 10k/36: 0.66 Residual

Monthly: $497

So basically his payment is $497 so you round up to the nearest 50, so that would be $500x7 = 3500. This loweres your MF down.

Hope this helps.

roadburner

graphicguy said:

Michaell said:

roadburner said:

Michaell said:

roadburner said:

If I max out the MSDs I can get a 24 month/10,000 miles per year lease on a 2016 i3 REX for less than $90 per month with no money down.

Yeah, I figured you could score an amazing lease deal as an employee. That's a $50k car, right?

Yep; I could also get a 2016 M3 lease on the same terms for about $600/month.

So what qualifications does one need to be a genius at a BMW store?

You must be a judge, or at least, a lawyer.

Funny thing; one of our most successful client advisors is an attorney who retired from a large well-respected Louisville law firm. As you might expect, his client base is heavily populated with attorneys. I delivered a 440i convertible to one of his clients who had bought himself the car for a retirement present; he had been a top notch criminal defense attorney and as we walked out to the car he asked, "Are you as glad to be out of the legal field as much as I am?"

brian125

Was checking out Tesla's last week. What a sharp Car... In the last quarter, Tesla sold 9,156 examples of the Model S. Mercedes sold 4,921 S-Classes, and the BMW 7 Series came in third with 3,634 units sold. That puts Tesla's share of the segment, which includes 12 different vehicles, at 32 percent. It's by and large the king of this segment, helped by a 59 percent year-over-year improvement. The Tesla S is a beautiful vehicle very classy and luxurious. Shame its range is useless in my world.

flightnurse

brian125 said:

Was checking out Tesla's last week. What a sharp Car... In the last quarter, Tesla sold 9,156 examples of the Model S. Mercedes sold 4,921 S-Classes, and the BMW 7 Series came in third with 3,634 units sold. That puts Tesla's share of the segment, which includes 12 different vehicles, at 32 percent. It's by and large the king of this segment, helped by a 59 percent year-over-year improvement. The Tesla S is a beautiful vehicle very classy and luxurious. Shame its range is useless in my world.

and this..
Mercedes-Benz extended its lead in a race with BMW for the luxury-car sales crown, as a series of new models position it to overtake its rival for the first time in a decade.

A jump in deliveries of SUVs and crossovers helped Mercedes increase sales almost twice as fast as BMW in the first nine months, expanding the Daimler AG unit's lead to 57,985 cars, according to data released by the manufacturers.

Mercedes is poised to achieve its 2020 target of unseating BMW AG's namesake brand as the world's biggest seller of premium vehicles already this year, Daimler CEO Dieter Zetsche said this week, which would put Mercedes back on top for the first time since 2005.

Mercedes is winning over customers with a recently updated lineup of trendy models that appeal to younger buyers, including the GLC coupe and compact GLA sport utility vehicle.

BMW is responding with a revamp of its 5-Series business sedan to rival Mercedes's popular E-Class, adding new self-driving features that control speed, help drivers stay in lane and keep distance to nearby cars.

The 5-Series, set to hit showrooms in February, will range from a four-cylinder hybrid plug-in that can drive 45 kilometers on a single charge, to a more powerful eight-cylinder gasoline version, BMW said in a statement on Thursday.

The car is critical for BMW after an overhaul of its top-of-the-line 7-Series sedan received a muted response.

BMW has downplayed the impending loss of the No. 1 spot, shifting its view to maximizing profit and fund investments in new technologies.

"Profitability remains our primary focus," BMW's head of sales Ian Robertson said in a statement on Thursday.

New entrants

Luxury-car makers are racing to compete on self-driving innovations while also having to spend more on developing electric cars to meet increasingly tough emissions regulation.

BMW, Mercedes and Volkswagen AG's Audi brand last month outlined a major push into electric cars, which will add to their research-and-development costs. After hiking investment in plants, equipment and new technology from a peak this year, Daimler plans to rein back spending in the years ahead, CEO Zetsche said this week.

BMW's global deliveries rose 9.4 percent to 197,419 cars in September, boosting the nine-month total by 6 percent to 1.48 million vehicles, the company said in a statement.

By comparison, Mercedes's sales jumped 12.1 percent to 211,286 vehicles in September, lifting the total by 11.7 percent to 1.54 million, according to a separate statement. Audi slipped further back in third place with year-to-date deliveries of 1.41 million cars, a 4.5 percent gain.

Contact Automotive News

brian125

All good facts and info . Another thing I forgot to mention was Tesla sells on 2 Lux cars.

BMW 7 series is once again a contender and not a pretender. The 2017 BMW 5 series is said to be the Jr. version of the new 7. It will have most of the 7's new tech including Remote parking , Gesture control, Apple CarPlay, 4G LTE with WiFi, upgraded motor and shed close to 130 pounds

.The 530i will Start at 60k .

The 540i , 3.0............. 335 h/p 8 spd Trans should be a fun ride. Cant wait to go test drive it. I'd love to get another 2017..... 7er.................. but not willing to drop 100k at this point in my life.

I test drove the new G80 Genesis . Excellent all around vehicle without the fun factor of driving a S6, or BMW 550. The problem with this new G80 is.... looks to much like a Sonata from the back for 55k.

If you could get over the looks of this G80 / G90 vehicle it will pamper you with its amenity's. The 429 h/p , 9spd Trans is superb. The 3 mode upgraded suspension proves to be what this model was needing a few years back.............................. What a bang for your buck

Go test drive this model if you have the chance ...................... Hell of a job by Hyundai.

andres3

brian125 said:

All good facts and info . Another thing I forgot to mention was Tesla sells on 2 Lux cars.

BMW 7 series is once again a contender and not a pretender. The 2017 BMW 5 series is said to be the Jr. version of the new 7. It will have most of the 7's new tech including Remote parking , Gesture control, Apple CarPlay, 4G LTE with WiFi, upgraded motor and shed close to 130 pounds

.The 530i will Start at 60k .

The 540i , 3.0............. 335 h/p 8 spd Trans should be a fun ride. Cant wait to go test drive it. I'd love to get another 2017..... 7er.................. but not willing to drop 100k at this point in my life.

I test drove the new G80 Genesis . Excellent all around vehicle without the fun factor of driving a S6, or BMW 550. The problem with this new G80 is.... looks to much like a Sonata from the back for 55k.

If you could get over the looks of this G80 / G90 vehicle it will pamper you with its amenity's. The 429 h/p , 9spd Trans is superb. The 3 mode upgraded suspension proves to be what this model was needing a few years back.............................. What a bang for your buck

Go test drive this model if you have the chance ...................... Hell of a job by Hyundai.

Curious if you know if the Genesis/Cadenza's are made in the USA like the Optima. Usually manufacturer's make their flagship where quality matters more than lowest bidder.

brian125

I know Hyundai has a plant in Montgomery but I'm guessing the Genesis is being made in South Korea. Just a guess thou. I know there were talks to assembly here last year don't know much more .

andres3

brian125 said:

I know Hyundai has a plant in Montgomery but I'm guessing the Genesis is being made in South Korea. Just a guess thou. I know there were talks to assembly here last year don't know much more .

What's the first letter and/or number on the VIN for your Genesis; that'll tell us the answer, at least in 2013.

brian125

Its K..............assuming that means Korea???????

andres3

brian125 said:

Its K..............assuming that means Korea???????

Yeah, see, they don't trust us filthy Americans with their best stuff.

Denon makes all of their home audio receivers in China. However, one exception, their flagship a few years back which is my current Denon Receiver is made in Japan. Denon AVR-4520CI home theater receiver.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_033AV4520C/Denon-AVR-4520CI.html?tp=179

OK, bragging over.

brian125

andres3

I'll tell you what my Lexicon 7.1 surround sound 17 speaker w/ amp in my Genesis is a top notch system. I believe Harmon bought the Lexicon brand a few years back.

andres3

brian125 said:

andres3

I'll tell you what my Lexicon 7.1 surround sound 17 speaker w/ amp in my Genesis is a top notch system. I believe Harmon bought the Lexicon brand a few years back.

I like Harmon other wise known as HK. Don't think they should drop the Kardon part. My previous receiver which I still have is an HK. I'm keeping it because they don't make receivers like the two I own anymore. When the Denon konks out I'll switch back to the HK. Heck, I might switch out yearly just for the fun of it.

Biggest advantage the newer Denon has is the ability to read FLAC files. Other then that, the HK is perfect and probably superior despite the fact it's made in China .

flightnurse

brian125 said:

All good facts and info . Another thing I forgot to mention was Tesla sells on 2 Lux cars.

BMW 7 series is once again a contender and not a pretender. The 2017 BMW 5 series is said to be the Jr. version of the new 7. It will have most of the 7's new tech including Remote parking , Gesture control, Apple CarPlay, 4G LTE with WiFi, upgraded motor and shed close to 130 pounds

.The 530i will Start at 60k .

I highly doubt the 530i will start at 60K, that is almost 10K more than the 2016 528i, and over 5K more then a 2017 E350. Since pricing hasn't been released I'm thinking base price for a 530i will be close to 53-55K. The standard equipment list for the 530i is impressive.

Here is an article about the new 5 series.

flightnurse

Here are some interesting articles.

2016 Cadillac CT6 3.6 AWD

2017 Genesis G90 5.0 V-8

2017 Toyota Camry XSE V-6

2016 BMW i8

brian125

I'd buy the G80 over the G90 (Old Equus model ) Its a better buy for the money.

Genesis is a great bang for your buck and will pamper you with many amenities in the 42 to 52k price range. What I liked about the new model is the warranty, Largest car in its class. , ultra quiet ride, radio, 3 mode suspension, command center and large screen, everything inside is laid out nice and easy to use. The new redesign / wheels look terrible.

Its a perfect vehicle for folks who want a steady ride and could care less about brand or how uninspiring this vehicle seems when driven like the Audi , Bmw, or MB. Genesis 429 h/p and 9 spd trans works well in this vehicle. I call this new Genesis ( G80 ) the upper class large family sedan bargain .

The Camry XSE V-6 will take some sales away from the Honda Accord. I had a 13 Accord V-6 for 1yr. Very nice vehicle.

Next time I'm at the Mb dealership going to test drive the a 17 550i then hopefully at Audi there's a S6 to compare.

flightnurse

We had a first Gen Genesee and liked it, and with the improvements of the new gen I can see sales being taken away from Lexus and MB.

brian125

The G90 reviews on Edmunds (old Euuis ) are not as good as the G80.

Any body have any behind the wheel time on below 16 / 2017 vehicles. Looking for any negatives before I test drive ?

1- E400
2- S6
3-550i

roadburner

brian125 said:

The G90 reviews on Edmunds (old Euuis ) are not as good as the G80.

Any body have any behind the wheel time on below 16 / 2017 vehicles. Looking for any negatives before I test drive ?

1- E400
2- S6
3-550i

The 550i is nice enough, I just find the F10 too soft for my tastes. I think I'd rather have an M Sport X5 xDrive50i. I still think that the 340i is the sweet spot- for BMW sedans at any rate.
We don't expect to see any G30 5ers at our center until late January at the earliest- and those will all be in either 530i or 540i trim. The M550i xDrive will be offered a bit later- it sounds intriguing.

flightnurse

roadburner said:

The 550i is nice enough, I just find the F10 too soft for my tastes. I think I'd rather have an M Sport X5 xDrive50i. I still think that the 340i is the sweet spot- for BMW sedans at any rate.
We don't expect to see any G30 5ers at our center until late January at the earliest- and those will all be in either 530i or 540i trim. The M550i xDrive will be offered a bit later- it sounds intriguing.

I was under the impression that all Dealers were getting 2 G30's as demo now, I like the concept of the 550i but that engine just has too many issue for me to spend 80K and have it break down like they have.

What I like about the G30 is now the 530i will get the M sport Suspension in the M Sport Package as standard equipment, that was a big mistake with the F10.

roadburner

I just confirmed the info with my NCM; our center isn't expected to see a G30 until late January.