Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

roadburner

The 2004 X3 I sold to a friend now has 215k miles on it. No issues with the engine or transmission, and the suspension has never been touched.

henryn

roadburner said:

The 2004 X3 I sold to a friend now has 215k miles on it. No issues with the engine or transmission, and the suspension has never been touched.

Yes, outliers do happen. But you would like to sell @qbrozen a 100k warranty on that 2006?

roadburner

How do you know it's an outlier? In my opinion it was simply maintained properly. E60s aren't my cup of tea, but if I was in the market for one I wouldn't hesitate to snap that one up if it passed a PPI. Set aside a couple of thousand in reserve for maintenance/repairs and you'd likely be fine; you get a very nice car for a ridiculously inexpensive price of entry.

FlightNurse2

First off what has happened to Edmounds, trying log in had been a joke, and other account is locked, how do I get it unlocked??

All this talk about used lux cars, my next car will not be a new car, so I have been looking at used the market. Autotrader has been a great way to waste time looking.

I saw a 2015 BMW 550i, fully loaded, M sport, B&O sound system, Active Cruise and all other bells and whistles, car had 40K miles on it, asking price was $32K, it was white with black interior, for me I don't want black interior.


I saw a 2013 750i with 55K miles, fully loaded again, Black on Black, asking 30K.

Lexus LS460 2012 45K miles, 27K

Lexus GX560 2012, 88K miles, 19K

There are some bargains out there right now I have no idea what I want but it's been fun looking.

qbrozen

roadburner said:

How do you know it's an outlier? In my opinion it was simply maintained properly. E60s aren't my cup of tea, but if I was in the market for one I wouldn't hesitate to snap that one up if it passed a PPI. Set aside a couple of thousand in reserve for maintenance/repairs and you'd likely be fine; you get a very nice car for a ridiculously inexpensive price of entry.

That wagon has had 2 owners and now over 100k miles. It may be a nice car, but we can't guess how it has been cared for thus far. I would bet the diff and gearbox oils are original. Just something that people always seem to forget or trust the manufacturer who claims "lifetime fluid." Ugh.

roadburner

I never changed the diff oil on the X3, but I did change the ATF every 60k.

henryn

roadburner said:

How do you know it's an outlier? In my opinion it was simply maintained properly. E60s aren't my cup of tea, but if I was in the market for one I wouldn't hesitate to snap that one up if it passed a PPI. Set aside a couple of thousand in reserve for maintenance/repairs and you'd likely be fine; you get a very nice car for a ridiculously inexpensive price of entry.

I note that you didn't actually answer my question, to wit -- would you like to sell qbrozen a 100k extended warranty on that car? I'm sure you could find someone who would sell you such a warranty, but I shudder to think of what it would cost.

benjaminh

No warranty on a 12 year old car of any kind is likely to make any sense, or even be possible.

Iirc I think Shifty has said a few times over the years here, more or less, that if you buy an old high end car (after a mechanic takes a look at it, of course) you still probably need to figure on giving up on it if something truly major happens with the engine or transmission. But in the meantime you might get some great driving out of it—perhaps even for several years and many miles. Maybe that BMW wagon might even make it to 200k with maintenance and some minor work here and there. As you folks know, I was just posting it out of interest and for fun, not really as a serious idea. Mainly it interested me because a manual BMW wagon is such a rarity.

benjaminh

2005 Mini Cooper S modified to make c. 250 hp....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atkqqau3gTw

flightnurse

Here is a link to a 2016 BNW 550i, it's basically full loaded, minus B&O abd ACC. 38K miles asking 36K it's a new 550i with the updated N63TU engine.

benjaminh

flightnurse said:

Here is a link to a 2016 BNW 550i, it's basically full loaded, minus B&O abd ACC. 38K miles asking 36K it's a new 550i with the updated N63TU engine.

Link?

Alex on Autos likes the Kia K900....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS4EVpCKgHU

roadburner

henryn said:

roadburner said:

How do you know it's an outlier? In my opinion it was simply maintained properly. E60s aren't my cup of tea, but if I was in the market for one I wouldn't hesitate to snap that one up if it passed a PPI. Set aside a couple of thousand in reserve for maintenance/repairs and you'd likely be fine; you get a very nice car for a ridiculously inexpensive price of entry.

I note that you didn't actually answer my question, to wit -- would you like to sell qbrozen a 100k extended warranty on that car? I'm sure you could find someone who would sell you such a warranty, but I shudder to think of what it would cost.

Me, I shudder to think about being forced to drive a soul-killing appliance as opposed to what is currently in my garage.
As I've said before, if the thought of owning a BMW out of warranty makes you want to go buy a box of Depends, then that's not the car for you. In my case, living on the edge of total and inescapable financial ruin has worked out pretty well.

Mr_Shiftright

High miles luxury cars should be treated as a gamble--if you can afford to gamble, then no problem. But if some unexpected repair devastates you, or forces a total loss after a short amount of time--then that decision was dumb.

I've always driven risky cars and I've done just fine with them, even on the rare occasion when I had to pull the rip cord before the crash 'n burn---(like on the Porsche 928). Factoring in the miles driven and enjoyment, I really didn't "lose" anything on that car.

The only time I bought "practical" was in trucks. Of course, if I were a young man with kids, I might be thinking differently--I get that.

flightnurse

benjaminh said:

Link?

Alex on Autos likes the Kia K900....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS4EVpCKgHU

In my post the work LINK is the link, just click on it.

flightnurse

Another car I'm looking at are the MB E55 and E63's. I would love to find a a wagon version of either.

Here is a link to E63.

flightnurse

Mr_Shiftright said:

High miles luxury cars should be treated as a gamble--if you can afford to gamble, then no problem. But if some unexpected repair devastates you, or forces a total loss after a short amount of time--then that decision was dumb.

I've always driven risky cars and I've done just fine with them, even on the rare occasion when I had to pull the rip cord before the crash 'n burn---(like on the Porsche 928). Factoring in the miles driven and enjoyment, I really didn't "lose" anything on that car.

The only time I bought "practical" was in trucks. Of course, if I were a young man with kids, I might be thinking differently--I get that.

Your 928 was a risky purchase, I have always liked them, was seriously looking at a 928GTS, but after a lot of investigating into the 928 and the high and I mean high cost of repairs (even at Indie shops) I moved away from it.

I've looking to into the BMW 550i (twin turbo V8) and know that the N63 engine (early years) had some serious problems, the later years with the N63TU engine, not so much.

Also looking at the MB E55 and E63, they have some issues, but not as serious as the 550i. Prices for the these are cars are reasonable, from 10K to as high as 35K.

ALso looking at BMW M5s, the E39 M5, not looking at the E60 M5 (even though having a V10 would be nice) I don't want to have spend 25K on an engine rebuild.

Porsche boxster is on my list, yes, IMS bearing is a problem, but the cost to take care of it after purchase is doable about $2500.

OR one could get a Lexus and not worry about these cost.

stickguy

If your going used, might as well go big.

http://www.royaleasing.com/detail-2015-bmw-7_series-740li_xdrive-used-18166604.html

stickguy

This also seems like a good deal on a loaded, low miles RLX.

http://www.royaleasing.com/detail-2015-acura-rlx-4dr_sedan_advance_pkg-used-17990535.html

jpp75

stickguy said:

This also seems like a good deal on a loaded, low miles RLX.

http://www.royaleasing.com/detail-2015-acura-rlx-4dr_sedan_advance_pkg-used-17990535.html

One thing that really bugs me about the RLX is that cheapo digital clock next to the nav screen. It looks is totally out of place.

benjaminh

Alex on Autos on the 2019 ILX. He says 0-60 at 6.2 seconds, which is slightly faster than a 2018 Civic Si. Torque converter with 8-speed DCT means it's smoother at low speeds than the DCT found in a Mercedes CLA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdOg_xntiaY

benjaminh

For $32k totally loaded it seems like pretty good bang for the buck. A FWD A3 loaded up would be about $40k—and for $40k you can get a V-6 TLX with Tech package. The ILX Premium with an msrp with destination of $29k is probably the best value in the lineup.

Mr_Shiftright

How To Buy a Risky Car:

1. Always get a PPI from a specialist in that particular marque. So for a BMW 740, you go to a BMW specialist, not a "German Car" repair shop.

2. Don't believe anything the seller tells you unless it's on paper.

3. Never buy a risky car that looks like crap.

4. Line up a repair shop, and parts suppliers, before you buy the car, so you know what resources you can call on if you need them.

5. Be fastidious in your maintenance.

stickguy

ILX looks like a baby tlx now. Same power train too, likely lighter so slightly quicker. Biggest drawback might be a much smaller (like 4 gallons) gas tank and same MPG!

Doesn’t quite have same ride and handling though.

flightnurse

stickguy said:

If your going used, might as well go big.

http://www.royaleasing.com/detail-2015-bmw-7_series-740li_xdrive-used-18166604.html

The 7 series has never done anything for me, also why would I go for a 740i, why not a 760iL?

I still want a performance car, and the E55/63, M5 and Boxster fit the bill.

flightnurse

Mr_Shiftright said:

How To Buy a Risky Car:

1. Always get a PPI from a specialist in that particular marque. So for a BMW 740, you go to a BMW specialist, not a "German Car" repair shop.

2. Don't believe anything the seller tells you unless it's on paper.

3. Never buy a risky car that looks like crap.

4. Line up a repair shop, and parts suppliers, before you buy the car, so you know what resources you can call on if you need them.

5. Be fastidious in your maintenance.

My lease is up May 2020, I have time, but I figured I would start looking now to get an idea and to educate myself on the pro's and con's of ownership of these cars. You Tube has been a excellent place to research this,

Mr_Shiftright

I always research the risky car's weaknesses, and then figure out what it takes to cope with them beforehand.

e.g., say certain year BMWs---okay, cooling system, rear control arm bushings, vanos; or Mazda RX-8--ignition coils, engine flooding; or Boxster--IMS bearing, main seal, air/oil separator; or Infiniti G37--rear engine galley gaskets.

Of course, sometimes "the list" is so formidable that it becomes TOO MUCH of a risky car---e.g. VW Phaeton W8.

pensfan83

I learned my lesson the hard way with my first Audi about how NOT to go about buying a higher risk car . I was in my early 20's, my prior car was totaled, and I wanted something higher end. Enter a B4 A4 with the V6 and 5 speed. It was fine at first but then the ABS control module went, rear wheel bearings started whining, it needed the timing belt service, various suspension bits, it goes on. Coming out of my Maxima the costs were sobering to say the least.

roadburner

I bought my first BMW in 1983- one year after I graduated from law school. I was 26 and the car was a 1973 Bavaria 3.0. I restored it over the next five years and sold it in 1990. I've kept track of it over the years and in 2015 it made it on to the cover of Vintage BMW:

benjaminh

stickguy said:

ILX looks like a baby tlx now. Same power train too, likely lighter so slightly quicker. Biggest drawback might be a much smaller (like 4 gallons) gas tank and same MPG!

Doesn’t quite have same ride and handling though.

If you ignore price I actually like the looks of the A3 slightly better than the new ILX, inside and out. But although the A3 theoretically begins at about $34k, the reality for my local dealer is that they don't have any A3 cars for less than an msrp of c.$41k. But Acura actually stocks the base models of its cars, and so soon you will actually be able to find a base ILX with its msrp of $25,900 at Acura dealers across the country. And you can also get the base TLX, which has lots of stuff and even 4-wheel steering, for 33k. Speaking of the 4-wheel steering, I found a 3-minute video that briefly tries to explains how 4-wheel steering works on some Audis, Cadillacs, Porsches and Acuras:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jXnHeH9GNg

Here's the Porsche explanation of it.....

https://www.porsche.com/international/models/911/911-targa-4-models/911-targa-4s/chassis/rear-axle-steering/

"Rear-axle steering
Upon request, available for all S models: rear-axle steering. This enhances performance as well as suitability for the every day. For an especially light-footed handling with significantly improved drive stability.

Advantage in daily use: at low speeds, the system moves the back wheels against the front wheels in position. This results in a virtual shortening of the wheel position. The turning curve is reduced, the steering response in curves is significantly more dynamic and parking is easier – you will feel it.

Advantage when driving in a sporty style: at greater speeds the system steers the back wheels in the same direction as the front wheels, that are in position. Driving stability increases with the virtual increase in wheel position, the agility through the simultaneous steering of front and back wheels. In summary, it affects the maximum driving performance. We would say, rather positive!"

ab348

Review of the ILX by TTAC. Comments are typical, ranging from "it'll sell like crazy" to "nobody will buy this".

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/10/2019-acura-ilx-first-drive-review-third-time-lucky/

Mr_Shiftright

Every manufacturer of sedans (including Tesla) is going to have to fight for a shrinking market. Not a great situation for them. One way to compete is to pack more value into the car, which is apparently what the new ILX has done---but of course that increases costs and shaves off some profit.

ab348

Edmunds was at that same ILX reveal event and posted a less than enthusiastic review. You have to scroll down a bit to the October 28 entry and expand it to read it all.

https://www.edmunds.com/acura/ilx/2019/

pensfan83

It's an underwhelming car to say the least. The chassis and drivetrain are badly in need of an overhaul.

benjaminh

ab348 said:

Edmunds was at that same ILX reveal event and posted a less than enthusiastic review. You have to scroll down a bit to the October 28 entry and expand it to read it all.

https://www.edmunds.com/acura/ilx/2019/

Yeah, the 2019 ILX is OK overall, but I think that's about it. The car has a good engine, a good transmission, good standard equipment, and good quality/reliability. And in a few months there will probably be nice discounts from the base $25,900 starting price. I think this is a way for a person who might be considering a new Corolla or Civic, etc. to move up for not that much more. Or maybe someone who is hoping for an affordable Audi A3 gets sticker shock at the c. $40k msrp and heads over to Acura instead? If you don't need something as large as a Camry or Accord, the 2019 ILX introductory lease is already about what you'd pay for the base models of those....

"2019 ILX 8 Speed Dual-Clutch Featured Lease
$239 Per month for 36 months.$2,999 Total due at signing"

For someone wanting to avoid getting a turbo for whatever reason, this is one of the last ELL cars with a NA engine. Honda has probably come close to perfecting this 2.4 engine over about 20 years, and it's likely to last a long time. I think there are a fair number of Hondas and Acuras with earlier versions of this engine that have gone well over 250,000 miles.

But the bottom line is that there's a reason the TLX has recently outsold the ILX by something like 3 to 1. The TLX imho is a special car and a real luxury sports sedan. The ILX to be blunt is more like the fanciest, fastest, and highest tech 2015 Civic ever made.

stickguy

With vastly better seats

benjaminh

Here's a 2003 Accord with the 2.4 that seemingly has gone 300,000 with just regular maintenance. That's obviously not happening very often, but I think most people would say the Honda/Acura 2.4 is a good engine. Of course the Acura version today is more complicated. Imho this 2003 Accord is way over priced at $3000, because that engine is probably almost worn out.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/751459567/overview/

dino001

Look at these front lights. Really cheap plastic completely sanded off.

qbrozen

Hare Honda? Funny, I always thought of Honda as the Tortoise.

qbrozen

Oh, hey, if you go to their website, they have it for 10% off!! Run down there now!!

qbrozen

This one could be a good beater, and a far better deal, even if an '04 VW:
https://www.harehonda.com/used/Volkswagen/2004-Volkswagen-Passat-71de68d10a0e0ae80c59a76370e92faa.htm

benjaminh

Scotty K. seems like he's always about to blow a fuse. In this video he gets worked up over new and nearly new engines that burn oil, which he says is just bad engineering....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G924YI4Ek44

roadburner

He is a complete and total moron.

qbrozen

Guess he may instantly implode if he ever experienced a rotary engine, huh?

henryn

The 2nd car I ever owned was a 59 Chevy 6 cylinder, cost me all of $75. And it had stuck piston rings, got about 50 to 75 miles per quart of oil. Anything since then has been an improvement, so I'm just not that picky about a little oil consumption. If it'll make 3k before it's down a quart, I have no complaints.

Now gasoline getting into the crankcase and diluting the oil, that is a problem.

andres3

benjaminh said:

For used entry-level luxury on a very small budget, what about this 2004 Jaguar X-Type 3.0 with real wood trim. Looks to be in nice shape and only has 79k miles. They are asking $5640. Probably less than the price of a 2004 Camry with these miles in this condition.

https://www.bachmanvolkswagen.com/inventory/used-2004-jaguar-x-type-awd-4dr-car-sajea51c24wd83357

The problem is that interior could be a Camry's, and no one might know the difference.

flightnurse

benjaminh said:

If you ignore price I actually like the looks of the A3 slightly better than the new ILX, inside and out. But although the A3 theoretically begins at about $34k, the reality for my local dealer is that they don't have any A3 cars for less than an msrp of c.$41k. But Acura actually stocks the base models of its cars, and so soon you will actually be able to find a base ILX with its msrp of $25,900 at Acura dealers across the country. And you can also get the base TLX, which has lots of stuff and even 4-wheel steering, for 33k. Speaking of the 4-wheel steering, I found a 3-minute video that briefly tries to explains how 4-wheel steering works on some Audis, Cadillacs, Porsches and Acuras:

Looks are subjective, but price is not. Each dealership has a "set price range" of certain models on the lot. Take BMW here in PHX, the average price of a 330i sedans is 47K, 340i's are about 7K more. That doesn't mean there aren't more or less expensive ones on the lot, but the average price sitting on the lots. I would assume Audi and MB are pretty close to those prices of the A4 and C300/400.

Some people are in love with the new Acura's I'm not, but I do like the new RDX. I just wish Acrura would stop playing games and build a true sport model of their cars, Honda as the Technology just build it.However, as I'm entering into later side of my 50's I'm looking for more comfort then sport. But we love our X2, it's everything the X1 is not sporty. I think this SAV has prompted me to go a smoother riding transportation.

andres3

benjaminh said:

stickguy said:

ILX looks like a baby tlx now. Same power train too, likely lighter so slightly quicker. Biggest drawback might be a much smaller (like 4 gallons) gas tank and same MPG!

Doesn’t quite have same ride and handling though.

If you ignore price I actually like the looks of the A3 slightly better than the new ILX, inside and out. But although the A3 theoretically begins at about $34k, the reality for my local dealer is that they don't have any A3 cars for less than an msrp of c.$41k. But Acura actually stocks the base models of its cars, and so soon you will actually be able to find a base ILX with its msrp of $25,900 at Acura dealers across the country. And you can also get the base TLX, which has lots of stuff and even 4-wheel steering, for 33k. Speaking of the 4-wheel steering, I found a 3-minute video that briefly tries to explains how 4-wheel steering works on some Audis, Cadillacs, Porsches and Acuras:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jXnHeH9GNg

Here's the Porsche explanation of it.....

https://www.porsche.com/international/models/911/911-targa-4-models/911-targa-4s/chassis/rear-axle-steering/

"Rear-axle steering
Upon request, available for all S models: rear-axle steering. This enhances performance as well as suitability for the every day. For an especially light-footed handling with significantly improved drive stability.

Advantage in daily use: at low speeds, the system moves the back wheels against the front wheels in position. This results in a virtual shortening of the wheel position. The turning curve is reduced, the steering response in curves is significantly more dynamic and parking is easier – you will feel it.

Advantage when driving in a sporty style: at greater speeds the system steers the back wheels in the same direction as the front wheels, that are in position. Driving stability increases with the virtual increase in wheel position, the agility through the simultaneous steering of front and back wheels. In summary, it affects the maximum driving performance. We would say, rather positive!"

You can order an Audi to specifications though, just have to wait 3 months for it. I'm convinced someone in Germany decides what all Audi dealers will get allocated unless an order is made. Too much similarity between dealerships.

benjaminh

There's a c. 2000 Audi A4 quattro in the animated classic Spirited Away. Saw it last night. Audi is pretty accurately portrayed, including the Audi logo. You can see it for just a couple of seconds at the start of this trailer....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByXuk9QqQkk

flightnurse

andres3 said:

You can order an Audi to specifications though, just have to wait 3 months for it. I'm convinced someone in Germany decides what all Audi dealers will get allocated unless an order is made. Too much similarity between dealerships.

One would assume this, however, every dealer orders their cars. I have a good friend who is a saleman for the Penskie Audi dealer here in PHX and have some interesting conversations with him. Just like BMW of North Scottsdale (penskie dealership and it's right next to the Audi dealer) the Audi dealership orders A4's and keeps the prices within a price point. Which means most are equipped about the same. Like BMW they have lower priced and higher priced A4s. OF course they are equipped for the mass population not the car enthuses this i why you want see a 340i w/ M sport package with 6 spd and MPPK or a A4 Premium Plus with just the sports package. The people speak with the wallets and they want more options. But you can still order a car how you want it...

benjaminh

A couple of days ago the oil life monitor on my leased Acura went from 30% to 20%, and so with about 6400 miles I went into my Acura dealer this morning at 7 am sharp without an appointment. To my amazement, after the crowds at the Honda dealer service bays starting well before opening, I was the first and only one in line. When my dealer leased the car they gave 2 years of maintenance on the house, and so I got an oil change and car wash for no charge today—and they even used "Duramax" synthetic oil. The details of the Acura oil life monitor don't really come through in this picture, but it's an old fashioned oil can like for the tin man in the Wizard of Oz. It's actually a full color cutaway (as I say not visible in the photo) which shows golden colored oil. The normal price of $65 seems a bit steep for an oil change, check of the car, washer fluid, car wash, vacuum, etc. but for long engine life changing the oil regularly with synthetic seems like a good idea. For ten dollars less they'll do regular oil. Nicer waiting area and snacks than the Honda dealer, and I was out in less than an hour.

https://duramaxoil.com/products/motor-oils/