Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

pensfan83

I think my dealer charges the same but they are always sending out coupons that knock the cost down anywhere from $10-$20. They also wash and vacuum the car.

benjaminh

Glanced at a few cars on the empty showroom floor too, including an RLX marked down 10k, and a TLX A-spec 4-cylinder with the red leather. The red leather looks nice but seems more appropriate for the V-6. I mean, if you're going to have racing car red having a 2.4 liter engine, no matter how nice (and it is nice) seems out of place. But I like the A-spec wheels, and I'm sure the even bigger and better tires than I've got help a little with handling, although I have no complaints there. The TLX handles like a dream even in base form. I know I'm like a broken record on this, but the precision all-wheel steering is really fun.

benjaminh

Some info from their site on Duramax oil....


"Advanced Full Synthetic Motor Oils
Cutting Edge Synthetic Technology Delivering Optimized Engine Performance from the Most Advanced Lubrication and Additive Technology.
DuraMAX® Full Synthetic XLT Motor Oils are formulated with Extreme Lubrication Technology to exceed the performance requirements of the current ILSAC GF-5 specification and address the enhanced performance demands of the latest engine technology including Gasoline Direct Injection (GDI) and Turbocharged Gasoline Direct Injection (TGDI) engine designs.

DuraMAX® Full Synthetic XLT Motor Oils are licensed ILSAC GF-5 and API SN oils and carry GM dexos1™ Gen 2 approvals (0W-20, 5W-30). They deliver unsurpassed protection and performance, including the following benefits:

Unsurpassed wear protection for critical engine parts that extend the life of your engine
Advanced additives that help prevent deposits and sludge and keep engines cleaner than conventional, synthetic blends, and most other full synthetic oils
Extreme protection against the potential for pre-ignition in GDI and TGDI designs, exceeding both the currently defined OEM requirements and the anticipated future industry performance targets
Protects engines in extreme conditions with exceptional cold weather performance providing faster oil flow at lower temperatures"

sda

Interesting the RLX doesn't have ventilated/cooled seats. I like the red interior though I think I'd tire of it somewhat. If it was more burgundy in color it'd give a richer look, though I know the intent is sport.

benjaminh

Just noticed that the bigger tires on the TLX A-spec cut the highway mpg by 1, which might well be worth it.

sda

I don't know how busy the sole Acura service department is here, however, the Honda service departments do a booming business. I don't dare go without an appointment and I try to get one of the earliest morning appointments available otherwise a simple oil change can take hours. Pricing is competitive. It is often cheaper to go to the dealer than go to an independent shop and my experience with Honda service has been positive. The fact that the techs are Honda trained and use Honda parts is a big plus.

roadburner

The interior in that TLX A-spec is gorgeous; it makes me wish Acura offered a RWD version.

stickguy

Looks like my Acura dealer. I never have an appointment but never takes too long. And they always have coupon specials. Honda dealer was busier. And for a while, I took my Acura TL there since it was closer and I had 2 Honda’s also, so they knew me!

henryn

The closest Ford dealer has a waiting area that looks very similar to what you show for Acura. With the good coffee, comfortable chairs, TV, today's newspaper, but no snacks. And the Quick Lane will get me out in under an hour, with a tire rotation thrown in, MotorCraft semi-synthetic oil, and under $50.

The nearest Mopar dealer, decent chairs, TV, no newspaper, no coffee, no snacks. Vending machines with lousy coffee. Usually takes 1.5 to 2 hours for an oil change, and costs about $60 (semi-synthetic oil). No tire rotation. Which is why I let the Ford dealer do the truck, and do the Mopar minivan myself.

roadburner

My BMW dealer has a decent waiting area; free wi-fi, snacks, soft drinks, coffee, and a 55" TV. An Oil Service on the ti runs about $80, but I usually do it myself. An Oil Service on the 2er runs about $90, and I usually just grab a loaner.

ab348

The dealer I got my last few cars from has a waiting area that is similar with coffee and water but no snacks. I wish they didn't have the TV - it is always on some news channel and it drives me nuts, especially the repetition if you are there for more than 15 minutes. It is also immediately next to and open to the showroom so if they are busy it can get noisy and crowded. My dealer desperately needs a new building.

flightnurse

ab348 said:

The dealer I got my last few cars from has a waiting area that is similar with coffee and water but no snacks. I wish they didn't have the TV - it is always on some news channel and it drives me nuts, especially the repetition if you are there for more than 15 minutes. It is also immediately next to and open to the showroom so if they are busy it can get noisy and crowded. My dealer desperately needs a new building.

I've been to all 3 (soon 4) BMW dealers here in PHX, they are all the same, nice, comfortable, they have a self serve bar area with water, soda, in the morning they have pastries and the TV usually hsa some BMW propaganda playing.

benjaminh

Since I was the only one in the waiting area this morning, I just turned the volume on the TV all the way down with the remote that was right there. No chance of doing that in the huge and crowded Honda dealer waiting area. They don't give you the option of adjusting the blaring TVs that I recall.

The available snacks at the Acura dealer are a small thing, but they are nice—premium coffee, premium tea, bottled water, a variety of snack bars, chips, etc. I got a small bottle of water to put in my car's cup holder and a nutrigrain bar for under the armrest. Was probably a fluke that I was the only one there, but it was peaceful and I got a bit of work done. I also feel like they were more focused on me and my car. When I took my wife's CR-V a week ago for an oil change the Honda dealer didn't remember to reset the oil monitor. That's only a small thing, and I reset it at home, but it seemed like maybe a lack of attention to detail?

I just checked their price list, and a regular oil change service at Huffman Acura at Oxmoor is $45—which is only five bucks more than the Honda dealer iirc. As I said, my service was "free", but I haven't yet figured out why the list price before they did the NC was $65. Doesn't add up if synthetic oil is only $10 more, but probably I missed some fine print somewhere.

I imagine the regular oil change would be fine once my free ones are done, but I do like the idea of a little extra insurance with the extra good oil. Probably in a few years I'll be dazzled by a new model of car, but right now I'm hoping I'll enjoy driving this TLX for several years to come. Right now I feel like I'll probably try to drive a car that has paws from here on out, but we'll see....

stickguy

Did you get tire rotation too?my dealer has 2 prices, with and without tires, and I think the price delta is about $20.

benjaminh

Iirc they only gave me 4 oil changes and 2 tire rotations as part of the free service. And so I just did the oil change. I'm surprised they used the more expensive oil since it was on their dime. Hmmm....

benjaminh

This savagegeese guy says starting at 1 minute 30 seconds that synthetic is better than regular oil....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASAdkJydBFU

henryn

I do believe pretty much everyone agrees by now that synthetic motor oil is superior to conventional. And the price delta for a DIY oil change is $10 or less. That is comparing a 5 quart jug of Mobil-1 to a premium conventional oil. I don't know that synthetic is necessary, but for any turbocharged engine I would say yes, necessary, and in most cases, required by the manufacturer to maintain your new car warranty.

Ford uses and recommends their own brand of semi-synthetic (or "blended") motor oil.

Mr_Shiftright

benjaminh said:

Scotty K. seems like he's always about to blow a fuse. In this video he gets worked up over new and nearly new engines that burn oil, which he says is just bad engineering....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G924YI4Ek44

Which is why he's working out of his dumpy garage at his house. Porsche just didn't want to hire him.

stickguy

I want one of those little model engines to keep on my desk to play with on conference calls.

For him, this was a pretty good video. Can’t really argue with his points.

circlem

M-1 oil at Walmart is $25.47 for 5qt. 5W30!!

roadburner

circlem said:

M-1 oil at Walmart is $25.47 for 5qt. 5W30!!

But no Mobil 1 grade carries LL-01 approval.

benjaminh

The dangers of old leather as illustrated by a 2007 Acura TL....



https://www.bachmanvolkswagen.com/inventory/used-2007-acura-tl-base-fwd-4dr-car-19uua66217a018023

henryn

roadburner said:

But no Mobil 1 grade carries LL-01 approval.

https://quirkyuncle.com/2013/09/12/diy-choosing-the-correct-motor-oil-for-your-bmw/

When I did this research a while back, the BMW-USA website had a list of approved synthetic oils for the US market that was dated January 2008. It listed several brands, classifying all of them as oils with a “BMW long-life rating of LL-01.” The BMW LL-01 spec oil options listed were:


Castrol Syntec European Formula SAE 0w-30 (rumor has it that this is the oil BMW relabels to sell as BMW Genuine Oil SAE 5w-30 Synthetic Oil)


Mobil 1 SAE 0w-40


Penzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5w-30


Valvoline SynPower SAE 5w-30


What happened between 2008 and 2013 to make BMW stop listing several oil manufacturer options? I have no idea. However, if you go to the Mobil Oil website, right now in 2013, the Mobil 1 0w-40 oil specs still list Mobil 1 0w-40 as being BMW LL-01 compliant.

henryn

benjaminh said:

The dangers of old leather as illustrated by a 2007 Acura TL....



https://www.bachmanvolkswagen.com/inventory/used-2007-acura-tl-base-fwd-4dr-car-19uua66217a018023

Some car manufacturers use a better quality leather than others. No idea about Acura.

I do know that Ford uses a really poor quality leather in their Lariat pickups. Very poor. And I can attest that older Caddys used some very good leather.

I still like the fake leather that VW uses, it seems to hold up really well.

benjaminh

Maintenance of leather is also a good idea. Every couple of years it should be treated iirc.

roadburner

benjaminh said:

Maintenance of leather is also a good idea. Every couple of years it should be treated iirc.

Exactly; the leather interior of my 146k mile 1995 Club Sport still looks brand new.

stickguy

Not paying $4,300 for a car with seats like that and 192,000 miles on it.

has to be the maintenance. I sold my 2000 TL with 175,000 miles on it 3 years ago, and other than a few patina lines, seats were in great shape.

henryn

They sell a lot of fancy products these days. Leather cleaners, leather conditioners, etc, etc. I still like saddle soap.

But I don't think a lack of maintenance accounts for all of the Ford pickups out there with totally shot leather seats.

cdnpinhead

roadburner said:

But no Mobil 1 grade carries LL-01 approval.

I decided Mobil synthetic was worthy a few decades ago when our turbine engines (where I used to work) were always serviced with Mobil in accordance with MIL-L-23699. A gas turbine exercises oil to a level well in excess of what automobile engines see -- much higher temperatures, combined with the need to allow the engine to start at temperatures down to -40. So what is this LL-01 thing that Mobil can't meet?

For what it's worth, when we had to demonstrate starts at -65 deg F we used an Esso oil that met MIL-L-7808. It coked up more at high temperatures but performed better at low temperatures.

The way most, if not all, of the cars used by the people on these boards are used, the oil you use is going to be fine. Pretending that you use the engine to the extent that the oil choice matters is, I guess, what makes the internet what it is.

That said, additives make all the difference as we grind along in the traffic jams.

circlem

I respect the BMW mandate, but for all the cars I've owned since the '90s, M-1 has been effective at keeping engine issues nonexistent. The '04 330xi I leased was serviced at BMW @ 15K mile intervals so assume they used the LL-01 oil.

qbrozen

henryn said:

They sell a lot of fancy products these days. Leather cleaners, leather conditioners, etc, etc. I still like saddle soap. But I don't think a lack of maintenance accounts for all of the Ford pickups out there with totally shot leather seats.

I think it does. Pickups typically see tougher duties and still largely carry the burden of being cosmetically uncared for. "It's for work" mentality.

benjaminh

When I was getting my oil change at the Acura dealer my tech said, not surprisingly, that my air filter for the engine was still in good shape. How often do these typically need to be changed with "normal" use under "normal" conditions? Got curious about the history of these, and so here's Scotty K. explaining the history of engine filters—from water, to oil, to round, to square, oem, and why cheap filters are a bad idea....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV-vNGzzP_M

breld

henryn said:

benjaminh said:

The dangers of old leather as illustrated by a 2007 Acura TL....



https://www.bachmanvolkswagen.com/inventory/used-2007-acura-tl-base-fwd-4dr-car-19uua66217a018023

Some car manufacturers use a better quality leather than others. No idea about Acura.

I do know that Ford uses a really poor quality leather in their Lariat pickups. Very poor. And I can attest that older Caddys used some very good leather.

I still like the fake leather that VW uses, it seems to hold up really well.

If you found a car that was a good deal and in good shape outside of the leather seats, you can certainly get new leather put in for no more than $1,500. And it's generally nicer quality than most anything that comes standard from the factory.

Now, generally, abused seats like that are simply a reflection of overall care, so it's unlikely that's the only need.

stickguy

Or a cheap roll of duct tape and some pep boys seat covers to save a bundle. That’s SOP for old pickups.

henryn

breld said:

henryn said:

benjaminh said:

The dangers of old leather as illustrated by a 2007 Acura TL....



https://www.bachmanvolkswagen.com/inventory/used-2007-acura-tl-base-fwd-4dr-car-19uua66217a018023

Some car manufacturers use a better quality leather than others. No idea about Acura.

I do know that Ford uses a really poor quality leather in their Lariat pickups. Very poor. And I can attest that older Caddys used some very good leather.

I still like the fake leather that VW uses, it seems to hold up really well.

If you found a car that was a good deal and in good shape outside of the leather seats, you can certainly get new leather put in for no more than $1,500. And it's generally nicer quality than most anything that comes standard from the factory.

Now, generally, abused seats like that are simply a reflection of overall care, so it's unlikely that's the only need.

If you pay $6 or $7 thousand for a nice clean used truck, you really don't want to spend $1,500 on seat covers. Seems somehow ... disproportional. Not that you're going to find many clean used trucks in that price range any more. That used to be fairly easy to do, but not any more.

My comments about the Ford truck leather seats is based on my personal experiences. I have looked at quite a few used trucks, 10 or 12 years old, reasonable miles, Ford and Chevy and GMC. Higher end Chevy and GMC trucks, the leather seats were almost always in good shape. On Fords, 9 out of 10 were shot, torn to h___.

All of which is not a scientific survey, and someone else might have had exactly the opposite experience.

I will add that the King Ranch Ford trucks use an entirely different leather, and I have never seen a King Ranch with the seats torn up.

roadburner

cdnpinhead said:

roadburner said:

But no Mobil 1 grade carries LL-01 approval.

I decided Mobil synthetic was worthy a few decades ago when our turbine engines (where I used to work) were always serviced with Mobil in accordance with MIL-L-23699. A gas turbine exercises oil to a level well in excess of what automobile engines see -- much higher temperatures, combined with the need to allow the engine to start at temperatures down to -40. So what is this LL-01 thing that Mobil can't meet?

For what it's worth, when we had to demonstrate starts at -65 deg F we used an Esso oil that met MIL-L-7808. It coked up more at high temperatures but performed better at low temperatures.

The way most, if not all, of the cars used by the people on these boards are used, the oil you use is going to be fine. Pretending that you use the engine to the extent that the oil choice matters is, I guess, what makes the internet what it is.

That said, additives make all the difference as we grind along in the traffic jams.

I would still use it on my 1995 3er if I didn't get such a good discount on the BMW/Shell oil. I can't get a straight answer on how/why Mobil 1 0W-40 lost LL-01 approval. Some people say that the LL-01 test criteria was changed, but if that was the case I would think they would change the name of the certification to reflect that.

benjaminh

BMW's lease offer on the 2018 320i....

https://www.bmwusa.com/special-offers/lease.2018-320i-Sedan.html?modal=special-offers-legal

"$349 PER MONTH FOR 36 MONTHS
$4,024 DUE AT SIGNING
SUGGESTED DEALER CONTRIBUTION OF $791
Offer not valid in Puerto Rico. Lease financing available on new 2018 BMW 320i Sedan models from participating BMW Centers through BMW Financial Services through December 02, 2018, to eligible, qualified customers with excellent credit history who meet BMW Financial Services' credit requirements. Monthly lease payments of $349 per month for 36 months is based on an adjusted capitalized cost of $32,154 (MSRP of $38,695, including destination and handling fee of $995, less $2,750 customer down, $0 security deposit and suggested dealer contribution of $791 and $3,000 Lease Credit). Actual MSRP may vary. Dealer contribution may vary and could affect your actual lease payment. Cash due at signing includes $2,750 down payment, $349 first month's payment, $925 acquisition fee and $0 security deposit. Lessee responsible for insurance during the lease term, excess wear and tear as defined in the lease contract, $0.25/mile over 30,000 miles and a disposition fee of $350 at lease end. Not all customers will qualify for security deposit waiver. Tax, title, license and registration fees are additional fees due at signing. Advertised payment does not include applicable taxes. Purchase option at lease end, excluding tax, title and government fees, is $23,217."

benjaminh

Mercedes Benz CLA 250....

https://www.mbusa.com/en/special-offers

"2018 CLA 250 Coupe
Starting at $32,700*
Lease Payment $329 for 36 months $3,777 due at signing
Advertised 36 months lease payment based on MSRP of $35,495 less the suggested dealer contribution resulting in a total gross capitalized cost of $34,496. Dealer contribution may vary and could affect your actual lease payment. Includes Destination Charge and Premium 1 Package. Excludes title, taxes, registration, license fees, insurance, dealer prep and additional options. Total monthly payments equal $11,844. Cash due at signing includes $2,653 capitalized cost reduction, $795 acquisition fee and first month’s lease payment of $329. Your acquisition fee may vary by dealership. The acquisition fee charged by the dealer may affect the total cash due at signing. No security deposit required. Total payments equal $15,292. At lease end, lessee pays for any amounts due under the lease, any official fees and taxes related to the scheduled termination, excess wear and use plus $0.25/mile over 30,000 miles, and $595 vehicle turn-in fee. Purchase option at lease end for $20,232..."

stickguy

Divide the DAS by 10, and I’m in.

By the time I add NJ tax and dmv fees plus dealer doc fee, that’s well over $5k DAS, to drive a stripper 320i. And pay to give it back at the end.

henryn

Let’s see here…

$4,024 divide by 36 yields another $112 per month.

$349 plus $112 is $461 per month on a sign-and-drive.

This against a MSRP of $38,695, you are WAY above the 1% level. Sounds to me like a terrible deal.

Michaell

benjaminh said:

BMW's lease offer on the 2018 320i....

https://www.bmwusa.com/special-offers/lease.2018-320i-Sedan.html?modal=special-offers-legal

"$349 PER MONTH FOR 36 MONTHS
$4,024 DUE AT SIGNING
SUGGESTED DEALER CONTRIBUTION OF $791
Offer not valid in Puerto Rico. Lease financing available on new 2018 BMW 320i Sedan models from participating BMW Centers through BMW Financial Services through December 02, 2018, to eligible, qualified customers with excellent credit history who meet BMW Financial Services' credit requirements. Monthly lease payments of $349 per month for 36 months is based on an adjusted capitalized cost of $32,154 (MSRP of $38,695, including destination and handling fee of $995, less $2,750 customer down, $0 security deposit and suggested dealer contribution of $791 and $3,000 Lease Credit). Actual MSRP may vary. Dealer contribution may vary and could affect your actual lease payment. Cash due at signing includes $2,750 down payment, $349 first month's payment, $925 acquisition fee and $0 security deposit. Lessee responsible for insurance during the lease term, excess wear and tear as defined in the lease contract, $0.25/mile over 30,000 miles and a disposition fee of $350 at lease end. Not all customers will qualify for security deposit waiver. Tax, title, license and registration fees are additional fees due at signing. Advertised payment does not include applicable taxes. Purchase option at lease end, excluding tax, title and government fees, is $23,217."

Which is really $439/mo when you amortize the cap reduction.

A $791 dealer discount on an almost $39k car is laughably small - we routinely tell folks to target 7% off sticker, before incentives, and some folks have reported getting more than that.

The 320i goes away for 2019, so you should be able to do much better than the national offer. And, that is a true statement for just about every brand.

stickguy

Plus another $1,400 DAS for TTL

benjaminh

"Infiniti 2019 Q50 2.0T
$299 / MONTH LEASE
For 39 Months with $5,099 Initial Payment
MSRP $36,545 includes destination charge. Net capitalized cost of $30,256 includes a $700 non-refundable acquisition fee. Retailer contribution may affect actual price set by retailer. Monthly payments total $11,661. At lease end, purchase for $18,638 plus $300 purchase option fee."

https://www.infinitiusa.com/offers.html#category=New+Offers

stickguy

Never saw a purchase option fee before.

henryn

Look, if you're going to be posting these kinds of deals, then do the math first. That $5k down makes this a BAD deal.

benjaminh

TLX V-6

"2019 TLX 9 Speed Automatic Featured Special Lease
$339 Per month for 36 months.
$2,799 Total due at signing.
MSRP $37,195.00 (includes destination, excludes tax, license, title fee, registration, documentation fee, options, insurance and the like). Actual net capitalized cost $30,244.94. Net capitalized cost includes $595 acquisition fee. Dealer contribution may vary and could affect actual lease payment. Total monthly payments $12,204.00. Option to purchase at lease end $19,713.35."

https://www.acura.com/tools/current-luxury-car-suv-offers-leasing?zipcode=40205

Michaell

henryn said:

Look, if you're going to be posting these kinds of deals, then do the math first. That $5k down makes this a BAD deal.

Fair point- better yet, peruse the model specific lease threads for real world examples. You can get a Q50 3.0T for that kind of payment.

benjaminh

henryn said:

Look, if you're going to be posting these kinds of deals, then do the math first. That $5k down makes this a BAD deal.

I'm not saying these are good deals. Just posting what the official offers are right now for entry-level luxury cars for comparison. I agree that 5k down makes this a strange lease. And I'm guessing that almost everyone can do better than these official offers, but they do provide a starting point for comparison for ELL cars right now. Some or maybe all of these offers are new starting Nov. 1.

stickguy

TL is right around $410 sign and drive. Not terrible.

I think most nationally advertised lease offers are lousy deals.

kyfdx

It says right on the disclosure that the dealer discount is $791. That's never going to translate into a good lease deal.