Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

benjaminh

2005 BMW 745Li. 1-owner clean Carfax. 87k miles. Original msrp 75k. Now 9k. Darth Vader black....

"This gorgeous BMW 745Li is stunning. Driven around 6k miles per year, this 745Li not only looks beautiful, it also drives great. Considered as one the best luxury cars on the road, this 745Li not only looks great, it is also loaded with all the features and options you may need in a luxury sedan... Navigation ** 19"" wheels ** HID xenon headlights w/ washers ** powered rear and side sunshades ** Front & Rear parking sensors ** steering wheel power tilt/telescope ** power trunk open/close..."

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/745200675/overview/

stickguy

The 5 series I like. Favorite colors, and a stick. I would rather have the non turbo engine though, since didn’t that generation TT have some issues? Plus maintenance costs being 10 years old. A 530 is fast enough for me. Even better would be RWD Though!

stickguy

Read the Carfax. Fuel pump replaced before 20k miles, and fuel injectors along the way too. Not a good sign.

kyfdx

qbrozen said:

Save yourself $2k-$2500  and get a Passat wagon.

If the Audi had a stick, it would already be sold

roadburner

The only E65 I lust after is a B7

sda

benjaminh said:

sda said:

ATS is a great car. The back seat area is tight, which would make it difficult for my elderly mom to get in and out, so kind of rules it out, unless I find one that is just too hard to let go.

The TLX has more back seat room than an ATS, but less than an Accord.

As you'll recall, I traded in a 2016 Accord EX for my 2018 TLX. On the off chance it might useful here are a lot of things that are better about the TLX compared with an Accord EX, as well as a couple of things that aren't as good.

1. The TLX has an amazing sound system compared to an Accord EX
2. The TLX has a much quieter ride over rough pavement
3. Better handling and suspension—both more sporty and more comfortable
4. Great 4-wheel steering system, which is exclusive in this class
5. AcuraWatch safety systems + adaptive cruise control
6. Better and more comfortable seats
7. Nicer interior materials, switches, and controls
8. Lights in places like under the center console, in the glovebox, etc.
9. Fully finished trunk with special storage areas
10. CarPlay/Android Auto
11. 8-speed dual clutch transmission with torque converter and paddle shifters. Really nice transmission.
12. More refined and more powerful engine
13. Integrated dynamic drive mode selector—econ, normal, sport, sport+
14. Stronger brakes, bigger brake pads, etc.
15. full led headlights provide better and more even illumination, save power, and have longer life
16. All sorts of other details not found on an Accord EX of your year, including capless fuel filler, acoustic glass, reverse tilt down side mirrors, built in compass, longer warranty, etc., etc.

A couple of things that aren't as good include a somewhat smaller back seat area (although still good enough for all but adults over 6' imho), and the fact that the TLX needs premium fuel to make the extra 20 horsepower it has compared to an Accord of the last generation.

All good points, and is on my list. Ideally a CPO 18 Tech. I believe you can use regular fuel with very little difference in performance and no risk of engine damage. The lack of a spare tire is a minor negative. I do like the conservative styling that will age well, and higher stance than the current 18 Accord.

stickguy

if there is a difference on RUG, you are only going to see it at high revs. I doubt for normal use you will ever notice. I go back and forth with it in our RDX, and I have never been able to tell. and some of my best MPG tanks have been on RUG.

there actually is an option for a spare. Almost positive it was an actual accessory listed at one point on the TLX, though possible they changes something for 2018. I remember looking in the ILX trunk (I think) and if you took out the Styrofoam tray that held the inflater the flange to bolt the spare tire to was still there. Ben should pull that out of his car and check for us!

benjaminh

I think your local Acura dealer is the place to answer your questions about spare tires and gasoline. Hope you'll go in for a test drive at some point!

benjaminh

A low-priced one-owner 2002 Mercedes E-class 4-Matic V8. Clean Carfax, 138k miles. Looks pretty good for its age. 138k miles. Yours for only $2500....Now this is low priced luxury—until you hit a major repair.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/734291095/overview/

benjaminh

Here's are some 2-cent thoughts about putting premium gas in the TLX 2.4. Unlike stickguy's RDX—which has huge amounts of power and a great power to weight ratio—the 2.4 in the TLX is honestly just enough. If an RDX uses regular gas and loses maybe 5-10% of its power there's still plenty left over. But the TLX base weighs 3505 pounds, compared to I think about 3200 pounds for a 2013 Accord EX. In other words, if you lose maybe 5-10% of your horsepower by going to regular it's a definite hit.

The last generation Accord's 2.4 and the current TLX 2.4 are similar engines, but they aren't identical. First, with the TLX 2.4....

"To maximize power output, the 2.4-liter engine has a dual-stage intake manifold has two different intake runner lengths that are selected based on the operating conditions. An actuator and a set of four butterfly valves control the intake runner switching process. At low engine speeds, the long runners are used to improve low-end torque. At higher engine speeds the system switches to the short intake runners for greater high rpm power. The result is intake tuning that is optimized for the engine's entire operating range."

http://acuranews.com/acura-automobiles/channels/tlx-press-kit/releases/2018-acura-tlx-press-kit-powertrain

Second, the TLX 2.4 has a higher compression ratio compared to the last generation Accord 2.4. The TLX has a compression ratio of 11.6, compared to something like 10 for the Accord. I think there are some other differences with the Acura 2.4 as well. It definitely sounds better and more refined than the 2.4 in the last generation of Accord.

You almost certainly won't damage your Acura engine using regular (although personally I don't want to chance it with mine), but I don't think you are going to squeeze those extra 21 horses that the souped up TLX 2.4 has over the last generation of Accord 2.4. And imho you need every one of extra horses in some situations when you are accelerating a car that weighs 3500 pounds. Just my 2 cents. I like to drive a little fast and do somewhat sporty maneuvers sometimes, and the TLX works for that. The TLX is about a third of second faster to 60 than a base 320i, but that's not saying a lot. The TLX 2.4 needs all the power it has—and part of that is that the engine is optimized for premium gas. My guess is that the next generation TLX will have a 2-liter c. 290 hp turbo as standard—and so the current lower-powered, lower-priced (and higher mpg) TLX will be a thing of the past probably starting in 2020.

sda

I'm sure the TLX sounds better, with a good engine note as it shifts through the gears than does the Accord with its CVT. The Accord is quick enough in most situations (who doesn't like more power?) but I don't find myself enthused to drive it hard very often and find myself accelerating in our Pilot a little more aggressively than I might to experience the engine sound as the transmission shifts gears. The V6 in the Pilot is typical Honda with a nice growl when you jump on it.

benjaminh

Interesting factoid about the TLX from C & D....

"Acura TLX
AALA U.S./Canada parts content: 70%
Final Assembly: Marysville, Ohio
Engine Origin: U.S.
Transmission Origin: U.S.
Honda’s luxury arm, Acura, remains sharply focused on North America. And although it hasn’t completely cracked the code on full-blown prestige quite yet, it has produced some fun and interesting vehicles over the years. Take the TLX, which is available with torque-vectoring all-wheel drive (dubbed Super-Handling All-Wheel Drive, or SH-AWD), while front-drive models boast a rear-wheel-steering system (Precision All-Wheel Steer, or P-AWS). It’s also assembled from a whole lot of North American pieces, the highest domestic content by far of any sports or luxury-brand sedan."

https://www.caranddriver.com/flipbook/most-american-cars-and-trucks-you-can-buy#7

benjaminh

Edmunds really likes the new Volvo S60....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZj8X5mH_XM

benjaminh

Motor Trend's take....

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/volvo/s60/2019/2019-volvo-s60-v60-first-test-review/

"....Design is as much a part of Volvo's brand identity these days as safety, and the S60 and V60 have serious presence. Credit for that largely goes to the new platform those cars now ride on, providing more premium proportions and an enormous 4.9-inch increase in length. The stretched-out 2019 S60 is longer than all eight cars in our most recent Big Test comparo and boasts a back seat that feels far more livable than what you'll find in most competitors....

If all-wheel drive isn't a must-have feature, take another look at the front-drive, 250-hp S60 T5 and V60 T5. Although the V60 T5's 6.9-second 0-60 time can't keep pace with many others in this class, it doesn't feel much slower than T6 models, which reach 60 about a second quicker. Sticking with the T5 also bumps fuel economy from 21/31-32 mpg city/highway to 24/36 mpg....

....Although we wish that tech (called BLIS in Volvos) were standard across the line and not just on the R-Design and Inscription models, it's worth noting that a $36,795 S60 Momentum base model starts thousands below the Lexus IS, Alfa Romeo Giulia, and Mercedes-Benz C-Class. And even at that price, the S60 gets a panoramic moonroof, a 9.0-inch touchscreen with Apple CarPlay and Android Auto support, LED headlights with slick daytime running lights that don't announce your car as a base model, 18-inch wheels, and safety tech...."

benjaminh

TLX 2.4 mpg on a couple of recent highway jaunts of c. 15 miles....

ab348

benjaminh said:

Motor Trend's take....

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/volvo/s60/2019/2019-volvo-s60-v60-first-test-review/

"....Design is as much a part of Volvo's brand identity these days as safety, and the S60 and V60 have serious presence. Credit for that largely goes to the new platform those cars now ride on, providing more premium proportions and an enormous 4.9-inch increase in length. The stretched-out 2019 S60 is longer than all eight cars in our most recent Big Test comparo and boasts a back seat that feels far more livable than what you'll find in most competitors....

If all-wheel drive isn't a must-have feature, take another look at the front-drive, 250-hp S60 T5 and V60 T5. Although the V60 T5's 6.9-second 0-60 time can't keep pace with many others in this class, it doesn't feel much slower than T6 models, which reach 60 about a second quicker. Sticking with the T5 also bumps fuel economy from 21/31-32 mpg city/highway to 24/36 mpg....

....Although we wish that tech (called BLIS in Volvos) were standard across the line and not just on the R-Design and Inscription models, it's worth noting that a $36,795 S60 Momentum base model starts thousands below the Lexus IS, Alfa Romeo Giulia, and Mercedes-Benz C-Class. And even at that price, the S60 gets a panoramic moonroof, a 9.0-inch touchscreen with Apple CarPlay and Android Auto support, LED headlights with slick daytime running lights that don't announce your car as a base model, 18-inch wheels, and safety tech...."

Wow, just a masterful job of writing in a way that turns negatives into positives. Maybe MT outsourced their writing to the Volvo PR department...

stickguy

Seemed fair to me.

I would get a t5 anyway. 6.9 0-60 Is plenty fast, and strong MPG ratings. Too bad BLIS isn’t standard, but not a big deal to add. Gotta keep base price down somehow! Perfect size now too, at 187” long. About what the 2018 inscription (LWB) version was I think.

A T5, with metallic paint, cold weather and BLIS options, is still only about $40k, so soon to be good lease or purchase deals on lightly used service loaners!

stickguy

Built one. $40,245. So I was close! In the $30s if you get flat paint! That’s a momentum, metallic blue, heated seats and steering wheel, and premium package (BLIS, keyless, parking sensors, and some other stuff)

Really well equipped. Especially if you like active safety nannies. My wife will be sold, not only does she get power passenger seat, it even has memory! And for me, a spare tire is once again standard.

benjaminh

Some weird and goofy 20-something guys reviewing a loaded 2018 Cadillac ATS. They actually do have some good info....There's an ATS in my parking lot at work, and it is a really good looking car imho. Sharp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX6JzXOWemg

benjaminh

I like the Volvo V60 wagon a lot. Seems worth it for an extra 2k or so....

benjaminh

The TLX 2.4 also has been timed 0-60 at 6.9 seconds—and so seemingly an identical time as the S60. That's fast enough for me, but many people in this segment want something faster. The TLX V-6 SH-AWD at 5.8 seconds is a lot faster than the Volvo for about the same $. The Cadillac ATS 3.6 is faster still at c.5.5 seconds.

benjaminh

Cadillac's all-new Entry Level Luxury Performance SUV, the XT4....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTSQgaRasnc

stickguy

If 6.9 is too slow, for the price of an AWD TLX can get the T6 Volvo. a AWD and 316 HP. Will make up the difference!

ab348

That XT4 makes it sound very appealing! Nice vehicle.

qbrozen

wish the sport would have more ponies under the hood

benjaminh

XT4 looks good imho. Nice Caddy promo video on the design....

https://www.cadillac.com/crossovers-suvs/xt4-crossover/making-of

benjaminh

The XT4 starts at 35k for the FWD version. Add heated seats, CarPlay/AA, etc. and it's still a good deal imho at c.39k. I think they have a shot at selling a lot of these....But a totally loaded version is more than 50k.

https://www.cadillac.com/crossovers-suvs/xt4-crossover/photo-gallery

benjaminh

Redline reviews also likes the 2019 XT4....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvFS1OvUliE

stickguy

Sharp. I could live with one of those. Other than paying for it of course.

Should sell well.

Michaell

stickguy said:

Sharp. I could live with one of those. Other than paying for it of course.

Should sell well.

I'd wait for the off-lease deals - 50%, or more, off MSRP.

Just for fun, I've been looking at off-lease ATS'. Found quite a few with the 2.0T, AWD and low miles for between $18-23K.

I still think I'd prefer a TLX as a long term keeper, though.

stickguy

Same. Plus, my wife would probably find it too cramped (the ATS). No roomier than my current car.

Mr_Shiftright

So this XT4 is set to compete with....say...the Audi Q3 family? Hmmm....that's not going to be so easy.

henryn

I don't actually mind a small car (or SUV), as long as it has enough "driver space". Sometimes smaller cars are much better than larger ones at providing driver space. I feel less cramped in a CR-V than in a Tahoe.

stickguy

With 2 up front, the issue is often elbow space. Fighting over the center armrest, never ends well.

benjaminh

Mr_Shiftright said:

So this XT4 is set to compete with....say...the Audi Q3 family? Hmmm....that's not going to be so easy.

The XT4 does have much more rear seat room than a Q3. I think the XT4 is closer to the BMW X3 in size.

henryn

I fit fairly well in an SRX, which has been replaced with the XT5. No idea about the XT4. I will probably try one on for size eventually. Just not right now, I'm not in the market to spend that much. Now in 2 or 3 years, an off-lease model for half-price just might be interesting.

ab348

stickguy said:

Same. Plus, my wife would probably find it too cramped (the ATS). No roomier than my current car.

I actually found the ATS roomier up front than the M-B C-series when I was looking. The ATS cabin seems to have more width up front and to me feels a bit airier. Rear seat is perhaps a different story, but a driver and passenger are quite comfortable up front and are not rubbing elbows. The main issue is that the ATS is fairly low, which my knees are finding a bit challenging these days for getting in and especially out. As the lyrics to "Hot Rod Lincoln" say, though, "But man, what a ride!"

Michaell

ab348 said:

stickguy said:

Same. Plus, my wife would probably find it too cramped (the ATS). No roomier than my current car.

I actually found the ATS roomier up front than the M-B C-series when I was looking. The ATS cabin seems to have more width up front and to me feels a bit airier. Rear seat is perhaps a different story, but a driver and passenger are quite comfortable up front and are not rubbing elbows. The main issue is that the ATS is fairly low, which my knees are finding a bit challenging these days for getting in and especially out. As the lyrics to "Hot Rod Lincoln" say, though, "But man, what a ride!"

That's good information to have. I, too, felt cramped in a C-class.

Since it's usually just me in the car, rear seat space or elbow room isn't much of an issue.

benjaminh

In just three and a half months of entry level luxury car ownership I've driven over 6000 miles, the proof of which is below. I like driving the TLX a lot, whether to work or to a state park out of town for a bike ride, which is how I've gone much more than the 1000 miles a month I get with my lease. Darn. On that trip to the state park I stopped briefly at a rural cemetery and snapped a few shots, including this one of "Tattoo Charlie"....

benjaminh

Savage Geese likes the Genesis G70....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5dgVx9F0WI&t=461s

benjaminh

Alex on Autos likes the 2018 TLX. He also explains why the A-spec handles and brakes a little better than the other models (bigger tires). Something I don't think he mentions is that for long-term ownership past the warranty an Acura is likely to be more reliable and less expensive to maintain than an Audi, BMW, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZfhE1BA7tQ

henryn

benjaminh said:

Alex on Autos likes the 2018 TLX. He also explains why the A-spec handles and brakes a little better than the other models (bigger tires). Something I don't think he mentions is that for long-term ownership past the warranty an Acura is likely to be more reliable and less expensive to maintain than an Audi, BMW, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZfhE1BA7tQ

Be careful. There is a long term poster here who will say bad things about you if you demean his beloved BMW's.

Mr_Shiftright

It's all in how you take care of them.

benjaminh

henryn said:

....
Be careful. There is a long term poster here who will say bad things about you if you demean his beloved BMW's.

BMWs are great cars. I've wanted one since I was a kid. Who knows, maybe I'll even get one someday—but I might lease.

roadburner

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's all in how you take care of them.

Precisely.

benjaminh

I like this one-owner certified blue 2015 BMW 528i with only 12,500 miles for $29k....I'm guessing the original msrp was 60k or so, which means that you're getting a car for about half price that probably has about 95% of its life still to go. Unfortunately I'm not sure that a 3-year old car has AndroidAuto. Probably not.

"PREMIUM PACKAGE,LUXURY LINE,PARK DISTANCE CONTROL,MEDITERRANEAN BLUE METALLIC,Sun/Moonroof,HEATED FRONT SEATS,Leather Seats,TRANSMISSION: 8-SPEED SPORT AUTOMATIC,Navigation System,REAR VIEW CAMERA,Keyless Start,Bluetooth Connection,ANTHRACITE WOOD TRIM,IVORY WHITE/BLACK; NAPPA LEATHER UPHOLSTERY,WHEELS: 18" X 8.0" MULTI SPOKE LT ALLY (STYLE 454)"

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/751931639/overview/

benjaminh

The latest reliability survey from Consumer Reports puts BMW above Acura, and so perhaps I need to eat my words. Toyota and Lexus are at the top, as usual. Volvo is in last place....

http://www.autonews.com/article/20181024/RETAIL/181029858/consumer-reports-reliability-survey-detroit

"....Meanwhile, Lexus and Toyota topped the predicted new-vehicle reliability ranking for the sixth year in a row. Mazda jumped nine spots to finish third -- making it the most improved brand this year -- while Subaru, Kia, Infiniti, Audi, BMW, Mini and Hyundai rounded out the top 10.

Overall, Consumer Reports noted that when an automaker decides to make a vehicle more complicated, reliability often can dip as there are more things that can go wrong with a vehicle. Tesla, for example, made air suspension and all-wheel drive standard on the 2017 Model S, and it affected the car's reliability.

The nonprofit also highlighted the trend of automakers turbocharging smaller engines to give vehicles both pep and fuel economy -- with mixed results. Lexus has the most reliable turbo powertrain, followed by Honda and Porsche, while Hyundai and Mini have the most problematic ones, Consumer Reports said.

While automakers are adding more turbos, they're also increasingly pairing them with complicated transmissions that have upward of eight, nine and 10 gears, said Jake Fisher, Consumer Reports' director of auto testing.

"With this added complexity, it's not surprising to see some brands struggling to get them right, particularly the ones that don't have a long history of producing turbos," Fisher said in a release.

roadburner

benjaminh said:

I like this one-owner certified blue 2015 BMW 528i with only 12,500 miles for $29k....I'm guessing the original msrp was 60k or so, which means that you're getting a car for about half price that probably has about 95% of its life still to go. Unfortunately I'm not sure that a 3-year old car has AndroidAuto. Probably not.

"PREMIUM PACKAGE,LUXURY LINE,PARK DISTANCE CONTROL,MEDITERRANEAN BLUE METALLIC,Sun/Moonroof,HEATED FRONT SEATS,Leather Seats,TRANSMISSION: 8-SPEED SPORT AUTOMATIC,Navigation System,REAR VIEW CAMERA,Keyless Start,Bluetooth Connection,ANTHRACITE WOOD TRIM,IVORY WHITE/BLACK; NAPPA LEATHER UPHOLSTERY,WHEELS: 18" X 8.0" MULTI SPOKE LT ALLY (STYLE 454)"

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/751931639/overview/

That generation of 5 Series is not all that entertaining(M5 excepted); woolly steering and handling that was less than inspiring. To each his own, but light-years away from my cup of tea.

ab348

benjaminh said:

The latest reliability survey from Consumer Reports puts BMW above Acura, and so perhaps I need to eat my words. Toyota and Lexus are at the top, as usual. Volvo is in last place....

http://www.autonews.com/article/20181024/RETAIL/181029858/consumer-reports-reliability-survey-detroit

"....Meanwhile, Lexus and Toyota topped the predicted new-vehicle reliability ranking for the sixth year in a row. Mazda jumped nine spots to finish third -- making it the most improved brand this year -- while Subaru, Kia, Infiniti, Audi, BMW, Mini and Hyundai rounded out the top 10.

Interesting that Honda wasn't in the top 10? I thought they usually were? Hard to believe Mini, Audi, BMW and Hyundai were in the top 10 and they were not.

benjaminh said:

The nonprofit also highlighted the trend of automakers turbocharging smaller engines to give vehicles both pep and fuel economy -- with mixed results. Lexus has the most reliable turbo powertrain, followed by Honda and Porsche, while Hyundai and Mini have the most problematic ones, Consumer Reports said.

Hmmm. This seemingly ignores the Honda 1.5 turbo engine's woes that have been discussed at some length recently. Also not sure how Hyundai and Mini can have a troublesome turbo engine yet be ranked in the top 10 in overall reliability. Confusing.

stickguy

That’s a pretty blue one. Big, but I like it.

CR, well, I specifically issue (like the 9 speed AT programming when it came out, or telematics issues) can drop a brand. But even mid pack is practically no issues.