Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

benjaminhf

The 2020 Cadillac CT5 (or whatever it ends up being called) looks good to me—although I also like the looks of the current ATS. Even though I like Acuras, the ILX seems below the competition in terms of prestige and often performance (except for the 320i). But since for just a little more than a Civic you can lease a base ILX it's arguably a good deal for bargain-minded customers who want a reliable and nice performing car with some luxury that's almost $10k less than the competition (when similarly optioned).

I'm in Seattle right now, and the local Audi dealer has an advertised lease on a base FWD A3 for $350 a month (plus taxes etc.) with $3250 due at signing. The A3 is a better car in some ways than an Acura ILX, but the base ILX can be leased for $200 a month (plus taxes etc.) with $2500 das. If you can pay an extra $150 a month and an extra $750 down the A3 is a better looking car imho with better performance. But if you need to save that money for something else the ILX seems like a good deal—and in the long run an Acura is likely to be more reliable than an Audi.

benjaminhf

Scott Kilmer warns about owning a Mercedes long term....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPJ64sTa7KI

roadburner

Kilmer is a moron on his best day.
Full Disclosure: I have never owned-nor desire to own-any Mercedes save an AMG derivative. I really enjoyed driving my friend's E63 that was fitted with the Weistec M156 Power Package 1. It ran the 1/8 mile in 8.12 second; pretty good for only 441 hp.

Mr_Shiftright

He's too invested in anecdotal evidence, which is the lowest form of evidence. The plural of anecdote is....anecdotes. It's not evidence at all.

stickguy

not exactly a smooth delivery from that guy, who I never heard of before.

andres3

roadburner said:

Kilmer is a moron on his best day.
Full Disclosure: I have never owned-nor desire to own-any Mercedes save an AMG derivative. I really enjoyed driving my friend's E63 that was fitted with the Weistec M156 Power Package 1. It ran the 1/8 mile in8.12 second; pretty good for only 441 hp.

Interesting, I was running the 1/8th Friday Night with Race Legal (my first time ever heading over to Qualcomm to race in a straight line on a Friday night! The TTS Stage 1 was doing 7.9's, with just a measely 350 HP. The benefits of quattro AWD are very apparent in a 1/8 mile race. Especially since Qualcomm isn't a real track, and is just a parking lot conversion, and a parking lot in disrepair at that. Grip is a problem for the 2WD vehicles.

Anyway, the most interesting race was me vs. either a Hellcat or Demon, hard to tell them apart. I actually had an end time advantage by .001 seconds, but my reaction time was about .l5 slower so I lost. I was way ahead, and at the finish line they past me like I was standing still. They hit triple digits while I couldn't ever even hit 90.

Mr_Shiftright

stickguy said:

not exactly a smooth delivery from that guy, who I never heard of before.

He is kind of spastic. If I were an EMT sent to his house, I'd shine a light in his eyeballs for sure.

benjaminhf

Edmunds likes the new A-class, although I think they are optimistic in thinking that it'll start at 30k. I'll guess c. 34k msrp to start, and as test driven close to 50k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex-NOcL71sM

benjaminhf

Alex on Autos likes the new Volvo S60, which is going to start at about $36k....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBHu5cBTQ4U

benjaminhf

The fix-a-flat machine in some Acuras. It's a device that plugs into the electric outlet in the car, and it comes with a lighted a air pressure monitor. You can also use it to just pump up your tires if needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9goaGMVjXU&t=51s

stickguy

man, that Acura piece was quite sexist! And I still want a spare tire too.

benjaminhf

Unlike German cars, the entry-level 2019 Volvo S60 is loaded at the base "Momentum" price of $35,800, and includes a panoramic moonroof, heated windshield washer nozzles, CarPlay/AA, adaptive cruise, 10-speaker sound system, etc., etc. Interior details look very nice. The standard 2.0 liter turbo goes 0-60 in c.6.3 seconds. Now built in the US, Volvo might end up selling a lot of these. I like the "Thor's hammer" headlights lol!

https://www.volvocars.com/us/build/sedan/s60#momentum

stickguy

nice review on the Volvo. that I will be taking a look at when it arrives.

benjaminhf

stickguy said:

man, that Acura piece was quite sexist! And I still want a spare tire too.

Perhaps.

But having gotten dirty and sweaty changing tires in the 70s, 80s and 90s I don't want to get my clothes dirty now doing that either. I'm done with that. If the fix a flat machine doesn't do it, I'll just get towed and get a new tire. But maybe I won't get a flat. We'll see. My wife and I haven't had a flat in any of our various cars in our 2-car family for more than 10 years iirc. I don't know if that's just luck or if it's also that tires are better now?

Anyway, maybe a Volvo is in your future @stickguy, although with destination it's going to be almost $37,000 for the base model, and I don't think that has BLIS—although rear visibility looks excellent for the new S60.

benjaminhf

Although the 2019 S60 is pretty loaded to start, it turns out it is missing a few things, plus colors cost extra. And so once you add a color beyond black, heated seats, smart entry, blis, etc, it becomes a $40,000 + car.

https://www.volvocars.com/us

stickguy

that is what the current ones list for. But the new one seems way nicer!

that flat tire piece though, really went deep into the "helpless female" stereotype.

benjaminhf

stickguy said:

that is what the current ones list for. But the new one seems way nicer!....

The 2019 S60 is up on their website now. That price of 40k is for the new one. It does look like a great car. If you can stay away from most options it seems like a really good price for that level of car. A little bit difficult for me to get that any color aside from black costs $650 more, but I guess BMW has been doing that for many years—although iirc BMW at least offers white for free as well.

Given how weak sedan sales are across the board, my guess is that in just 6 months or so there will be big discounts on the new S60.

benjaminhf

One of the designers of the new S60 talks about the design....Looks good in and out imho. Has a double wishbone front suspension, which is something Honda/Acura used to have but gave up long ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gwxUp80UN8&t=400s

qbrozen

I'll be hoping for good lease deals on the S60 come August 2020.

stickguy

Perfect size for me too. Could be my new aspirational car!

roadburner

benjaminhf said:

The fix-a-flat machine in some Acuras. It's a device that plugs into the electric outlet in the car, and it comes with a lighted a air pressure monitor. You can also use it to just pump up your tires if needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9goaGMVjXU&t=51s

BMWs with conventional tires have been equipped like that for over a decade. my M235i has one, as did my i3. I'll note that Munich has started offering a jack and a spare tire on some cars for a nominal cost.

henryn

I had a flat on the Town & Country, about 2 months ago. I did put on the spare myself, although it took me longer to find everything than it did to actually change out the tire. They do hide things on that minivan, rather have to, what with no trunk. But at least it did have a spare. A can of fix-a-flat would have done me no good, as the sidewall was torn up by the time I got off the freeway.

That was on a Saturday, and I went to Discount Tire on Monday and purchased 4 new tires. The old ones still had good tread (maybe 30% of original), but a set of Arizonians (Discount Tire house brand with good reviews) only cost about $500. Cheap peace of mind.

qbrozen

henryn said:

I had a flat on the Town & Country, about 2 months ago. I did put on the spare myself, although it took me longer to find everything than it did to actually change out the tire. They do hide things on that minivan, rather have to, what with no trunk. But at least it did have a spare. A can of fix-a-flat would have done me no good, as the sidewall was torn up by the time I got off the freeway.

That was on a Saturday, and I went to Discount Tire on Monday and purchased 4 new tires. The old ones still had good tread (maybe 30% of original), but a set of Arizonians (Discount Tire house brand with good reviews) only cost about $500. Cheap peace of mind.

Does yours also involve removing the center console to get to the crank that lowers the tire from underneath? I'm thankful I have only had to change a flat once so far between our 2 T&Cs.

roadburner

This guy has that idiot Scotty Kilmer nailed...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=21&v=IqhkIOMjCW0

henryn

qbrozen said:

henryn said:

I had a flat on the Town & Country, about 2 months ago. I did put on the spare myself, although it took me longer to find everything than it did to actually change out the tire. They do hide things on that minivan, rather have to, what with no trunk. But at least it did have a spare. A can of fix-a-flat would have done me no good, as the sidewall was torn up by the time I got off the freeway.

That was on a Saturday, and I went to Discount Tire on Monday and purchased 4 new tires. The old ones still had good tread (maybe 30% of original), but a set of Arizonians (Discount Tire house brand with good reviews) only cost about $500. Cheap peace of mind.

Does yours also involve removing the center console to get to the crank that lowers the tire from underneath? I'm thankful I have only had to change a flat once so far between our 2 T&Cs.

No, I have the smaller center console which does not cover the crank. It actually wasn't that bad, once I figured it out. Definitely a case of RTFM.

benjaminh

Seemingly I'm finally posting again with my old profile....

Anyway, the last of the 2018 S60s have some good lease offers. Here's what's available at my local dealer....But, the all-new 2019 S60 might be worth waiting for.

Lease: $255 Per Month For 36 Months. $3,435 Due At Signing
MANUFACTURER OFFERS
Applies to select new 2018 Volvo S60.
No security deposit required. Monthly payment of $255, based on $36,440 MSRP of 2018 S60 T5 Dynamic FWD with Heating Package and Metallic Paint, includes destination charge and application of $3,500 Volvo Allowance and $4,100 Lease Bonus. Lessee is responsible for excess wear and mileage over 10,000 miles/year at $.25 / mile.

stickguy

I don't think I ever saw one that stripped. And I am sure the 2019s will be a lot fancier, but definitely will be more expensive too.

that also is not even a phenomenal lease deal.

benjaminh

Isn't $255 for a luxury car lease pretty good? That's only a little bit more than an Accord LX lease. In any case, the starting lease offer on the 2019 S60 is a lot more expensive....

"2019 Volvo S60 Offers
Lease: S60 T5 Momentum*
$369 /36 Mo. $3,369 cash due at signing
S60 T5 Momentum: No security deposit required. Monthly payment of $369, based on $36,795 MSRP of 2019 S60 T5 FWD Momentum, includes destination charge. Lessee is responsible for excess wear and mileage over 10,000 miles/year at $0.25 / mile. "

That would be a black one with no options at all.

https://www.volvocars.com/us/shopping-tools/purchase/offers/s60

My 2018 TLX Tech 2.4 has a similar msrp. It listed for $37,600. The official lease offer on it when I went into the dealer was $299 a month with iirc $2500 DAS + taxes, title, etc. But that was for a 12k a year lease.

kyfdx

$345/mo.+tax for a $36K MSRP car with first payment due at signing?
That's not bad.

stickguy

that cash do at signing, even at $255/mo, puts it at more like $380 sign and drive. Still cheaper than the 2019 though.

kyfdx

stickguy said:

that cash do at signing, even at $255/mo, puts it at more like $380 sign and drive. Still cheaper than the 2019 though.

$345/mo+tax, with just first payment due..

stickguy

interesting that they have lease deals up on the 2019, good through October, when they aren't even on the dealer lots yet.

benjaminh

Here's Acura's attempt to compare the ILX to the BMW 230i. A friend of my Mom's has a new 230i, and it was a really nice 2-door car. I think it had an msrp with options of about 40k though. So it was nicer than an ILX, and has more brand prestige, but it was rather expensive for a small car. I could still fit in the back seat, but getting in and out was not completely easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmYZTDU4k-g

kyfdx

248 HP and RWD/AWD, too..

benjaminh

The 2019 Genesis G70 is also a compelling option, and has a starting msrp of about $35k....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeVaPUOI7Lg

stickguy

I need to take my Elantra in this month for an oil change. Will look to take one of them for a spin while I am there.

roadburner

kyfdx said:

248 HP and RWD/AWD, too..

That would seal the deal for me.

benjaminh

The KIA Stinger is built on the same platform as the Genesis G70....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh1fzYP0_9o

benjaminh

Car and Driver has a new article on the "15 Cheapest Luxury-Badged Cars":

https://www.caranddriver.com/flipbook/cheapest-luxury-cars-suvs#2

They are....

BMW 320i at $36,295
Genesis G70 at $35,895
Cadillac XT4 at 35,790
MB GLA250 at 34,945
Lincoln MKC at 34,920
BMW X1 34,895
Volvo XC40 34,695
MB CLA250 34,095
Acura TLX 33,995
Audi Q3 33,875
Lexus UX 33025
Audi A3 32,925
Infiniti QX30 30,945
Acura ILX 26,895

benjaminh

Savage Geese guy does a somewhat detailed look underneath the KIA Stinger starting about 8 minutes in....But he complains about a lot of "creaks and rattles" at about 15 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er4gq7JfGCY

ab348

Genesis is a luxury badge now? Hmmmm.

benjaminh

Hyundai is planning to have a stand-alone Genesis dealer network set up over the next few years. But for now about half of Hyundai dealers are qualified to sell Genesis cars...

https://carbuzz.com/news/over-half-of-hyundai-s-us-dealerships-will-stop-selling-genesis-cars

"Genesis wants dealers that stick with the brand to set up dedicated showrooms, but not all dealerships are expected to make the investment. The first standalone Genesis showrooms are expected to open within a couple of years. In the next few years, Genesis will double its model line-up. Within the next three years, two SUVs, including a flagship model based on the GV80 concept and an entry-level GV70 crossover, and a sports coupe will join the G90, G80, and G70 sedans."

benjaminh

https://jalopnik.com/the-2019-genesis-g70-starts-at-34-900-is-a-better-dea-1829180983

"Genesis announced today that the G70 will start at $35,895, including the $995 destination fee, which prices it exactly the same as a base 320i. Both are rear-wheel drive sport sedans, both have premium features, both have turbo four-cylinder engines.

But remember the 320i is the cheapo 3 Series, the one with a less powerful version of BMW’s ubiquitous 2.0-liter turbo four. It puts out 180 horsepower and 200 lb-ft of torque. You can get more power from a GTI these days.

For the same price, the G70 has it soundly beat: 252 HP with the eight-speed automatic or 255 HP with the six-speed manual and 260 lb-ft of torque. Go Korean over German and you’re getting a lot more power right out of the gate. You have to get the more expensive 330i at $40,000 to match the Genesis, and even the latter has slightly more power."

kyfdx

When they start building dealerships that aren't attached, or on the same property as the Hyundai dealership, they might be able to make it work. (like Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, etc).

Until then, they'll just be seen as "nicer" Hyundais. Whether that's deserved, or not.

Is the G70 an actual Stinger with just a nameplate and minor trim/body changes? I was under the impression it would be smaller?

Michaell

benjaminh said:

Hyundai is planning to have a stand-alone Genesis dealer network set up over the next few years. But for now about half of Hyundai dealers are qualified to sell Genesis cars...

https://carbuzz.com/news/over-half-of-hyundai-s-us-dealerships-will-stop-selling-genesis-cars

"Genesis wants dealers that stick with the brand to set up dedicated showrooms, but not all dealerships are expected to make the investment. The first standalone Genesis showrooms are expected to open within a couple of years. In the next few years, Genesis will double its model line-up. Within the next three years, two SUVs, including a flagship model based on the GV80 concept and an entry-level GV70 crossover, and a sports coupe will join the G90, G80, and G70 sedans."

Yeah, Hyundai has bollocked up the Genesis brand.

Initially sold at Hyundai dealers, corporate then decided that there would be separate showrooms, but only in major markets (I think a couple hundred dealers, max).

Then - WAIT! - corporate then reversed course and said that it would be OK to continue selling the Genesis brand through existing Hyundai stores.

The store where I picked up my Elantra GT a few years back sells Genesis. But, the store itself is a bit dated; not someplace where I would want to purchase or lease my $50,000 (or up) luxury vehicle. I'd expect a more Acura / Infiniti / Lexus like environment and experience.

benjaminh

kyfdx said:

When they start building dealerships that aren't attached, or on the same property as the Hyundai dealership, they might be able to make it work. (like Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, etc).

Until then, they'll just be seen as "nicer" Hyundais. Whether that's deserved, or not.

Is the G70 an actual Stinger with just a nameplate and minor trim/body changes? I was under the impression it would be smaller?

Agree about Genesis not really fitting well with being sold through Hyundai.

The Stinger is actually a hatchback. Although the underpinnings and engine are shared with the G70, I think the sheetmetal and interiors are different. But yes, in a sense the Stinger is the "bargain" G70. Looking at cars.com I saw that you can buy a brand new Stinger for c. $29k, which seems like a good deal. But then that Savage Geese reviewer complained about multiple squeaks and rattles and so it seems like they are having some quality issues.

One thing I've been enjoying about my leased TLX is that it seems so far flawless in terms of quality. Honda is good, but the Acura does seem almost like a different world.

kyfdx

benjaminh said:

kyfdx said:

When they start building dealerships that aren't attached, or on the same property as the Hyundai dealership, they might be able to make it work. (like Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, etc).

Until then, they'll just be seen as "nicer" Hyundais. Whether that's deserved, or not.

Is the G70 an actual Stinger with just a nameplate and minor trim/body changes? I was under the impression it would be smaller?

Agree about Genesis not really fitting well with being sold through Hyundai.

The Stinger is actually a hatchback. Although the underpinnings and engine are shared with the G70, I think the sheetmetal and interiors are different. But yes, in a sense the Stinger is the "bargain" G70. Looking at cars.com I saw that you can buy a brand new Stinger for c. $29k, which seems like a good deal. But then that Savage Geese reviewer complained about multiple squeaks and rattles, and it seemed like they are having some quality issues.

Loaded Stingers go for $50K+ MSRP. I thought the G70 was priced a lot lower than that?

benjaminh

Here's a base Stinger for $27k, which is almost 7k off of msrp.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/726916969/overview/

stickguy

they can be loaded up to that range too.

benjaminh

3.5 months into driving my first luxury car part of me wonders why I waited so long. I've driven well over 5000 miles in the TLX and so far I'm really enjoying every mile even more than I expected to. Because sales of sedans are weak some of the greatest values in leasing right now are with entry-level luxury sedans. Right now you can lease a lot of luxury cars at nice rates, including the Cadillac ATS, the Acura TLX, the Volvo S60, and for a bit more even an Alfa Romeo Giulia:

https://www.alfaromeousa.com/car-shopping/current-offers#2018-giulia

Here's hoping @stickguy and some others join us on the ELL road lol!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOGdmIecvgw